New Virgin EBA

[bentandtwisted]

Found this on another forum;
Well, after 4 long months of waiting, the Feds have released the latest company offer in basic detail.
Lump sum of $8,000 paid on the introduction of new work rules ($7,500 promised in previous EBA).
737 Captain’s Salary to increase to $164,184 (including the professional retention bonus) plus 3% CPI on 1st July 07.
Embraer rate will be 80% of the 737 salary.
149 days off per year, up from 128 days, but six weeks leave has to fit in somewhere.
Annual target of 816 flying hours, and by my calculations that would be an average of 4.3 flying hours per day.
No reserve days on rosters, however those volunteering to work on a blank/day of to receive a payment of $1,000 for a minimum of 5 hours flight time.
A guarantee that 4/7th of all Captains positions on the B777 will be from current VB pilots for the first 7 aircraft.
VB have also changed the criteria for determining what level (1,2 or 3) new pilots join as FO's. In the past most pilots ie those with turboprop time (and no jet time) joined as level 2, and progressed to level 3 after 500 hours on the B737. Now any new joiners with turboprop time (without jet time above 50.0t) will be classified as level 1(ie lower pay).
I hear this EBA will follow the path of the last one and be voted down.

[KRUSTY 34]

They, (management) just don't get it do they!

[bentandtwisted]

Plus ,most new joiners will have to go to Sydney.

[Capt Basil Brush]

It actually works out to LESS money than the one voted down. (they still think pilots are idiots - maybe some are?)

They changed from an overtime based system, to an increase in base pay, which will work out to be less money considering the hours that will be flown in the near future. With pilots going to the EMB, and a rumoured 30 - 40 being interviewed by EK, anyone who thinks they will only be doing 816hrs/year are dreaming! Most are over 816 already.

87% NO last time, 90+% NO next time if its not changed.

[jack red]

Oh well, back to the drawing board.....................:ugh:

[The Professor]

So let me get this straight,

Captains pay just short of $170,000 with the CPI.

6 weeks annual leave.

That leaves 149 days off spread across 46 weeks.

That results in over 14 days off per month.

No standby callouts.

$1000 just for volunteering to work on a day off.

Progression onto a 777 when it arrives.

My only question is, what sort of conditions are you expecting to get for operating an automated jet in the benign environment that is downunder?

[JUZ777]

Well, though being out of my league and all i have to agree with the Professor. What are you really expecting? Hey lets pay the Captains 500k give them 26 weeks annual leave a year and watch the demise of another airline.:} :} :} If the conditions are so crap put in your resignation. I hear Tiger are looking!!

[speeeedy]

Don't bother contrails03, The Professor is on the JPC, this would explain why he thinks that offer is fantastic.

[The Professor]

I didnt say fantastic, but having flown in 5 airlines in Oz, Asia and Europe, I would suggest its not a bad deal, especially the 6 weeks leave and the 14 days off per month. No airline I have flown for would provide such a lifestyle. Combine this with the quality of life in oz and it is not really worth getting wound up over.

[Shagtastic]

Why do they still insist on paying the EMB pilots 80% less than the Boeing crews ?

In terms of profitability it would make just as much, it saves the company money on a thinner route, the crews fly the same amount of hours and those silly enough to pay for the rating aren't going to get it any cheaper than a 737 ticket.

Shags

[ndegepilot]

Is the Professor saying what a lot of people are thinking?
This should get interesting!;)

[Chimbu chuckles]

Perhaps the VB chaps/chapesses should now concentrate on lifestyle/rostering issues...that package combined with fewer consecutive nights away from home...say 2 instead of 4...might be hard to better. Short of going to India/China and touring...which sounds fun but is disaster for family life. As good as the pay is for doing that sort of work you risk falling foul of the ATO and all of a sudden you're netting less and still stuck in one of the worlds less cellubrious spots working your arse off...they aint paying the big $ out of the goodness of their hearts.

C03...be careful making comparisons with other countries and other packages...it is simply not valid to multiply x exchange rate and suggest Ryan air are on 250k.

[Capt Basil Brush]

The Professor,

Its not 149 days off after 6 weeks leave is taken out, nobody said that - its your interpretation. A bit like your interpretation of the good deal (not) the JPC negotiated for their pilot group - and managed to sell it to them as well.

Its 11 days off in 7 roster periods, and 12 off in 6 roster periods. (28 day rosters). There will be Reserve as the no reserve thing is only a "best endeveour" type of commitment. 10 to 12 overnights will still be happening, only there is effectively another month of them! (13 roster periods, instead of 12).

Its no wonder T & C's in Aus are the way they are judging by some of the above posts. There is a pilot group trying to improve pay and conditions for all, closer to where they should be, only to be mocked by fellow pilots with comments like;

"My only question is, what sort of conditions are you expecting to get for operating an automated jet in the benign environment that is downunder?" or;

"Well, though being out of my league and all i have to agree with the Professor. What are you really expecting? Hey lets pay the Captains 500k give them 26 weeks annual leave a year and watch the demise of another airline. If the conditions are so crap put in your resignation. I hear Tiger are looking!!"

Its a sad state of affairs when you have pilots with this mentality roaming around. The Professor and Co. wake up you morons!!

[Chimbu chuckles]

All I am saying is it is not valid to quote a Ryanair Captain as earning GBP100k and suggest that is AUD250k, as I have seen on this website numerous times before.

To suggest the Brits etc are not taxed to the point of exasperation seems to jibe with the general feeling against Gordon Brown, their chief taxman. Brits are permanently leaving the UK in vaste numbers because of being overtaxed and that tax being wasted...many are moving to Australia.

Starting next year, assuming LJH is returned to power, the tax rates in Australia will be such that you'll be averaging somewhere < 30% overall on everything less than AUD180k...and losing 45% of everything above.

Most of the complaints I hear from mates at VB revolve around time away from home. Raw money won't resolve that complaint...certainly not for very long.

Perhaps it is time to sit down and negotiate with the company about lifestyle and rostering...balancing off extra $, most of which will just go to the Govt, against rosters that have you away from home fewer nights in a row. Some late start/early finish trip pairs where you get an extra 1/2 day here and there as opposed to late finish/early start trip pairings.

If you just demand gross numbers you may succeed in the current employment climate...but then the company will extract their pound of flesh in rosters that will have you crying inside 6 mths.

Perhaps rather than going for gross pay you should start exploring rostering protocols that will afford you a decent lifestyle while still allowing those who want to work their coyts off the ability to do so via the $1000/day rate of some other suitable overtime system that everyone is happy with...mostly.

I dunno...Ryanair has some system where guys work 4 days and have 3 off and then 3 on 4 off or some such...would a 4 on, 4 off rostering system be a workable system in VB?

Perhaps with one of those off days, the first and/or last, available by mutual agreement as an 'available' day at that agreed rate of AUD1000.

You could do all sorts of things...take 4 leave days and have 12 consecutive days off...or if hungry/needing cash negotiate with rostering..."Yeah gidday rostering...look wanna buy the fiancee a nice ring so can you put me down as available on my first and last day off for the next two weeks?"

There will always be pilots hungry for $ so the company will know who to ring and leave those who don't want the overtime alone with their wives and kids or hobbies.

I think the numbers are looking close...smart employees might start to look at mutually beneficial rostering protocols that allow them to make lifestyle choices rather than holding the company over a barrel and then wondering why they are never home as a result.

FWIW

[Tee Emm]

although Australia doesn't have terrain challenges, it can produce some of the most challenging weather conditions in the world.

Obviously you haven't flown overseas except perhaps as a passenger. Australia is basically flat with good weather all the year around. Of course there are the occasional big clouds, but "challenging weather conditions?" Give us a break, mate.:D

[psycho joe]

VB have also changed the criteria for determining what level (1,2 or 3) new pilots join as FO's. In the past most pilots ie those with turboprop time (and no jet time) joined as level 2, and progressed to level 3 after 500 hours on the B737. Now any new joiners with turboprop time (without jet time above 50.0t) will be classified as level 1(ie lower pay)

Just out of interest, why are the new hires suddenly worth less?

Do they suddenly perform to a lower standard?

Is turbo-prop time suddenly worth less or not rate higher than piston only?

[clear to land]

I spent 15+ years and quite a few thousand hours flying all over Australia before leaving for my current employer. My last thousand + hours have been attained flying to many different points on the globe. Does Aus have challenging weather - Yes it can, although rarely did I find it an issue in the 73, or even a DHC6, although it was more of an issue in a C310/C206! I have seen MUCH more challenging weather in the last 18 months from my current type than I saw in my ENTIRE career in Aus. The MAIN challenges VB pilots face are incredibly low morale (Basic Flight Safety 101) due to the utter disdain that their management treats them with (a respect issue that has permeated the whole company), no career management or professional development (unless you come from a VERY specific previous employment/relative stream), and rostering practises that can only be described as punitive. One would believe the Rostering Departments main KPI is duty hours rather than effective stick time. To consistently offer packages that , in REAL terms do not outperform average CPI, whilst taking literally tens of millions in bonuses/share options (that are traded OUTSIDE of the trading window available to employees) demonstrates the managements view of their average pilots intellect. Please guys and girls, stand firm on this or vote with your feet, like an increasing number of us have done. It is FINALLY a pilots market, so make hay whilst the sun shines. :ugh: :)

[robroy]

You are an absolute , " richard cranium " with your comments re, OZ WX.
Having flown, every where around OZ,as a Captain,on, 3's, F 27's, F/O on DC-9's , L188's, Capt. on 737-200/300 glass, 727-200/200LR, and Capt. overseas for Malaysian for many years, on 200, 400, it is obvious to me that you have never had to flight plan SYD/PER on domestic ( !!! ) aircraft.
A DC 9, do not even try think about it, with the jet streams, in OZ.
In a B 727-200 LR , I had to flight plan, Syd- Adl- Per to get there.
In OZ, we have weather you really don't want to know about at times, ever heard of a, " Southerly Buster, in an OZ city, you know it all, how about, the huge sink out, landing to the south at BNE at certain times of the year, then there's ADL, CBR, ASP, DRW and many more. Think about OZ, How big it is, how few Airports. Also think about the North of Queensland in the WET, in a DC-9, 24200 lbs of fuel, this equals, 242 minutes, TOTAL endurance. Where to go, if the SH one T, hits the fan.
At MAS, when I was with them, a great time, and many friends at SIA, everywhere one went, there are heaps of airports to divert to, provided you have planned, correctly, and at around 10 tonnes per hour, one can carry a suitable, Alternate, anywhere.
As a long time friend of mine always quotes, when asked by the F/O, why have you ordered, SO, much fuel, he, says, "Put down, CVE."
t m, work that one out for yourself, you DH,
Fuel Tanks, ARE FUEL TANKS, NOT, air tanks,
To all others,
Cheers,
And, don't ever forget, that the only time you, as Captain, can have tooooo, much fuel on, is if you happen, to have a fire.
Had one of those, also a 2 engine failure, ( On a 4 eng. A/c ) a Loss of cabin pressure out of Singa's, and the ensuing Emerg. Descent, not counting many other PROB's
With Chardy in hand,
Apinun Olgeta
robroy

[The Professor]

Contrails, Ryan and Easy are in a vastly different labor market than Virgin Blue and Jetstar. The salary comparison is not valid. There are certain advantages to working for these airlines such as Easy’s rostering but I would suggest that you have rose colored glasses when it comes to assessing the lifestyle an Easy salary buys you. UK is not an easy place to live.

The contract at Southwest can trace its origins back to when the airline first proposed a compensation scheme for aircrew almost 40 years ago. The US industry has changed since WN arrived on the scene and shorthaul contracts written in recent years offer considerably less. Take a look at Virgin America.

Once again, Dragonair pilots are in a totally different market to carriers employing crew in oz and will always pay a premium to attract crew to live in HKG. Most, if not all employers in many industries in Asia pay large premiums to attract professional talent from countries such as oz.

Your comment thus “Sydney and Melbourne are a lot more expensive to live in than most Easy Jet and Ryan air bases. If you don't believe me do some research”.

Maybe in some cases, but not in most. Have you ever been to Luton?

The only valid salary comparison is within your industry within your market. NJS, Jetstar, Qantas, Skywest, Aus Air Express, Alliance, Air New Zealand, Zeal320 etc

Cap Brush, thanks for clarifying the number of days off on offer and also. 11 and 12 in 28 is about 10 and 11 per month. I would love to get 11 RDO’s per month. My contract entitles me to 8 or 9 like almost all other airline contracts I have signed.

And what exactly would you like me to wake up to. The market has changed in oz, just take a look at the salary levels being offered to fly jets now. NO NEW COMPANY HAS OR WILL EVER PAY YOU QF/AN PAY. THEY DON’T NEED TO.

You should wake up.

Robroy, a lot of issues you raise are to do with using an aircraft to fly a sector its barely capable of doing. In general the weather and especially the atc in oz are far better than India / Africa and especially north Asia. Japan has the strongest crosswinds and windshear I have ever seen and sometimes can leave you with little choice of airports.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Im surprised aircraft hasn't offered his amazing input on this thread yet. :yuk:

[pondoklabu]

Dear professor, I cant seem to grasp why you are so intent on telling all Virgin Blue pilots why they have so good and why they should except the current EBA offer, isn’t it up to them.
So since you are so keen to fly the lower wages and conditions banner,I have to ask, do you work for Virgin management or are you a JPC representative as suggested on this forum.
I just don’t understand why any pilot in the world would advocate to another group of pilots to except less unless he as a sinister motive.
If on the other hand you don’t have another motive then keep your childish rants to yourself and leave it to the virgin crews who are affected by this EBA NOT YOU.

[speeeedy]

Im surprised aircraft hasn't offered his amazing input on this thread yet.

Maybe aircraft is actually MAJ, and she's a bit busy covering her arse right now!

When you think about it, it makes sense. Aircraft was always defending GD and Management, Workchoices, LJH etc, and the real giveaway is that aircraft didn't know that Jetstar Asia even existed, that proves aircraft is someone from the Qantas board.

Maybe the professor is actually BG!

[bentandtwisted]

psycho joe,
It's all about money!
It’s surprising that people still want to join VB under the current conditions. And if the new conditions, which would allow a pilot to work 7 days and split duties get through (perhaps via AWA’s for new joiners), it will not be a good place to work.
Every jet company in Australia and NZ are recruiting at the moment, and companies, such as ANZ, Skywest, Alliance, Ozjet and Skyairworld will not make you pay for an endorsement. All these companies would offer a better lifestyle then what VB can offer.
Skywest offers a base in Perth with most nights at home and $110000+ per year as an F100 captain and only doing 700 hours per year. Ozjet offers Brisbane and Perth bases with captains earning $130000+ per year and once again most nights at home and similar hours to Skywest pilots per year. Alliance offers Townsville, Brisbane, Perth and Adelaide with captains earning $110000 per year and once again most nights at home and once again only doing 700 hours per year. So although these companies don’t pay the same as VB, they offer you lifestyle, which to most, is more important then money.
Most pilots at VB are doing 850+ hours per year and spending 12 -14 nights away per month. Most are doing 6 days in a row with one day off and then away for another 4-5 days. Does that sound like a good lifestyle?

[Jimothy]

PAF. A bit rich you a military pilot talking about fuel efficiencies and global warming! You really have no idea. Having seen both sides, I can tell you, there is much more consideration given to fuel savings and aircraft operating efficiencies at the airlines than in the RAAF.

[Yusef Danet]

"Most pilots at VB are doing 850+ hours per year and spending 12 -14 nights away per month. Most are doing 6 days in a row with one day off and then away for another 4-5 days. Does that sound like a good lifestyle?"

That's hyperbole and exaggeration, Bent. Some are certainly doing more than 850 p.a. but I seriously doubt most. From a brief straw poll in the crew room, I have heard a 150 hours variance. Same seat, type, base. There's no reason for one colleague to work an effective 2 months more than another, esp without an overtime system rewarding him. Single days off are rare and usually illegal by the EBA 2002.

I would, though, suggest 850 VB hours can be more fatiguing than 850 hours with efficient rosters, limited overnights and less exposure to VB's policy of airport appreciation.

[sinala1]

Most are doing 6 days in a row with one day off and then away for another 4-5 days
Cabin crew - yes :ugh:
Pilots - no

I have not heard of any pilots getting rostered single days off... infact my understanding of the Pilot EBA is that days off are to be rostered in no less than 2 at a time (excluding abnormal circumstances)

Cabin Crew need this changed though - 6 on, 1 off, 6 on can be torture! And no, the proposed new work rules did NOT rule out the chance of that being rostered. :ugh:

[The Professor]

Pondoklabu. I have not told virgin pilots that they “have it so good”, I am not telling them that they should “except”???? the offer. I do think that many posters here are using dubious data to make the inevitable but pointless comparison to operators in different markets with contracts driven by outdated market forces. That is all. Like everyone, I have chums in Virgin, Jetstar and Eastern and many of them are totally clueless about what lifestyle a certain salary buys you in a certain part of the world but they still bang their fist on the table and complain about how tough they have it. UK is not an easy place to live; Ryan and Easy have seen a lot of turnover as a result so looking to them for salvation may not be the answer. HKG is not an easy place to live, I have chums in KA that spit blood with hatred for the company and are constantly going sick to avoid work.

No, I am not keen to lower wages and conditions (wow, as if I have such a power) but in my many years in this game I have seen many employee groups chose a combative relationship with their employer armed with very inaccurate information about the market in which they work. I do not work for Virgin management and I am not part of the JPC. Would it make it easier for you if I were? Would it be relevant?

My motive on pprune is probably the same as yours, to simply chew the fat. I am not intruding into other peoples affairs and a point of view not connected to yours does not constitute a childish rant.

Contrails, what is “the going rate” and what data have you used to calculate it?

[goddamit]

A very entertaining topic from both sides. To set the record straight the pilot av. at VB is around 780/yr. Some I personally know are up to the 900/yr limit. Most rosters I see have 4 on, 2-3 off recurring. A lot though have 5 on 2 off. The 4 on are a continuous trip away from base. An average of 12-13 overnights a month is pretty much on the money. 3 days off follow red eye flights or a 4-5 sector day ending very late. Commonly it does take the first day off just to recover from the end of the trip. Most days have 3-4 sectors with a 8-10 hr duty & 3 aircraft changes with 30 minute turnarounds. Morale is an issue with how pilots are treated on other levels. Many friends I have in other airlines operating jet aircraft have knocked back opportunities in VB for a number of reasons.
Most pilots (in my opinion & experience) find it very difficult to maintain a decent family life with some of the inefficient rostering techniques. Lifestyle is preferred but financial compensation otherwise is an alternative.
In this topic there is a bit of false information from both sides & much more personal opinion than fact. The shear volume of pilots looking abroad says something, & with so many of their former colleagues working abroad they are more aware of what they personally want from their employer.
By the way I'm definitely no fan of the smilies.

[AnQrKa]

Contrails mate, as an employee of one of the above mentioned airlines, I would suggest that you come and live in a polluted foreign city 4000 miles away and fly 22 days per month with up to 14 overnights in third world polluted cities in crap weather, totally dangerous ATC procedures with 300 hour cadet effohs before you start comparing jobs mate. I have done your job before - have you done mine. I doubt it.

[ROKAPE]

I'm not sure why Dragonair is being compared to Virgin Blue/Easyjet/Ryanair?
KA is a full service airline and part of Cathay Pacific/Swire, it has a very different operating philosophy.

I hope the VB pilot group maintain their resolve and attain remuneration that rewards their professionalism, experience and responsibility. It will hopefully be good for all pilots in Australia if they succeed.

[Al E. Vator]

Oh for gods sake, why all this 'who's better than whom' and flying to Dalian is worse than Darwin crap? Pilots are their own worst enemies.

There is only one rule governing all of this: Supply and Demand.

Pilots have been screwed (and allowed themselves to be) for years due too much supply and insufficient demand.

Now the situation has reversed. Much demand, insufficient supply. Take advantage of it NOW.

Get the AIPA, AFAP and even JPC under one roof and GO for it. Now is the time to claw back all that's been lost over the last 10 years (and stop trying to put down our colleagues - that helps nobody).

[Dixons Cider]

Hear hear :D :D well said that man!

[Gravox]

SO WHAT DO YOU WANT.
This thread had the opportunity to be informative, but as per usual it has turned to drivel. So what is your dream list?
Mine would be better provisions for meals. 45 min turn arounds is insufficient for a meal breaks especially with an aircraft swap. I don't like dinner being provided at 4pm. Sure pay could be better, but it's the small things that make a difference.

AirNZ domestic guys and gals have 10 RDOs/month minimum, and up to around 14 including unassigned days from time to time. We usually have 2 overnights a month, and incentive pay over 55hr/month.
For an FO with 1yr service and an ATPL goes on to 4yr pay = NZ$78,747.
Every 18 months or so you have a roster of standby (28days) either early or late sessions.

Instead of being negative lets be positive. So once again what do you want?
Be realistic about it. If you get your ideas out there others may agree and then you can take these requests to the table next time you negotiate.

[Al E. Vator]

What do we want?

Better meal provisions:rolleyes: - no that's not so high on my list of priorities.

What I would envisage is full recognition of my chosen Union.

That cohesive union - representing all GA, Regional and Airline pilots Australia-wide would then push for huge pay increases and improvements to working conditions (rostering agreements with specific clauses regarding days-off, maximum hours workable [not CASA limits], deviations from archaic provisions of AWA's written directly into contracts and thus enforceable by law [particularly benificial during industry downturns]).

Employers have naturally taken advantage of the supply/demand equation being in their favour for the last 10 years and it has hurt us, and we have bickered amongst ourselves and fought like beggars over the crumbs they kindly throw our way.

Now the supply/demand equation has turned and we can play the same game, their game, this time with a chance of winning!

Should the employer not wish to agree to the conditions set by the representative Union, members can and will depart for overseas postings offering the same or better conditions with more favourable tax regimes.

If you have no pilots you have no business and no shareholder returns. You will soon accept that the Union conditions need to be accepted in order to have any business at all, they are simply a cost of running that business.

If we were united NOW, we could have this NOW. The only thing stopping this is US. At present we are simply a ragtag bunch of self-serving individuals undermining each other, PPRune being the outlet for that divisiveness.

But we need to think BIG (not about meals, but big-ticket items).

We must first regroup as a cohesive and determined league of professionals. The only way I can see this happening is by combining AIPA, AFAP and JPC, letting bygones be bygones and merging our collective intellect in order to come up with an innovative 21st century way to play the IR game. But it can only be done as a whole. Sniping at others on PPRune wont help this task.

Think big and the little items (like meal-breaks) will sort themselves out.

[The Professor]

Contrails, paying pilots to stop leaving! You mean paying ransom money. VB could easily stop the exodus without throwing good money after bad. Aircrew retention rates are not tied exclusively to salary. You mentioned an example of one such airline yourself. If you personally make career decisions based purely on salary, then its time to leave VB as it clearly does not meet your criteria. Do you really expect VB to design a compensation package to suit only you?

“Professor, if you're happy with lower pay and conditions”. A comment as absurd as “you are either with us or with the terrorists”.

Firstly, let it be clear, I love money. I love it. The more the better. BUT, I also understand that my desire for enough money to own my own Gulfstream can coexist with an acceptance that compromise is required at some point along the income scale and that as an airline pilot I am unlikely to be shopping the flight line in Savannah. It is possible for a highly evolved person to see both sides of the argument. Obviously you cannot.

Secondly, If it does turn around (from what to what I am unsure), by your own admission, it will be because “market forces dictate”. Such forces are wonderful, they giveth and they taketh away but “fighting” (exactly how are you fighting?) will do very little to help your cause. Let the market do the work for you but it will be interesting to see if your argument is intact after the global economy inevitably tanks and the usual downsizing occurs. Seen it many times now.

Thirdly, what exactly are “lower rates”? Lower than Qantas pilots? Lower than Jetstar Pilots? Lower than NJS pilots? Lower than a school principle? Lower than last year?

Your arguments are simplistic and very emotional. You resort to the common assumption that mutual exclusivity is not possible when analyzing a set of circumstances, probably because you are unable to achieve such a thought process yourself.

[Howard Hughes]

So whens the vote on the EBA? What is the expected time frame to get the total package sorted out?

Wouldn't mind a gig on the Embraear, but not at the rates quoted so far here...:ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

Gravox,

<$79K Kiwi to fly, I'm assuming a 737 or A320 for ANZ Mainline.

Notwithstanding lifestyle, thats terrible.

[Warped Wings]

Howard Hughes - why the interest in the Embraer over the 737? Just curious.

[Howard Hughes]

I suspect less overnights given the more regional destinations, probably a better lifestyle and possibly a quicker upgrade. At my stage in life, a better proposition.

Horses for courses, you young blokes can have the BIG jets and the long haul!:ok:

PS: I also think they are a sexy ship!:E

[sprucegoose]

Be a hell of a lot nicer to fly too I imagine. The 737 leaves a bit to be desired.

[coaldemon]

I don't think I have ever come across a pilot working anywhere in the world that didn't think they were underpaid!

[DutchRoll]

Jimothy, PAF is just winding you up mate, like he loves to do.;)

He knows full well that the pilots in his arena of aviation put on fuel, fuel, and more fuel. In fact before my move to wearing civvy pilot uniforms, I was in the same unit as PAF when we used to have a "standard" fuel order which was often double, occasionally triple what the actual minop would have been for that sector! It's all about laziness, almost limitless fuel budget funding, and not caring who's paying for it, perpetuated through the ranks and with noone who can be bothered changing it.

[max1]

Professor,
At what point do you think that the managers of airlines are going to willingly give the pilot groups a pay rise. They will always try to screw wages down, thats their job. Too much profit is never enough.
Now that the pilots are beginning to get the upper hand, good on them if they can get something back. You talk as if GD, BG and co. are this fair and decent bunch of guys who will share in the good times with their staff. I think we all know where the good time cheques get written out to.
You expect people to be kowtowing and tugging their forelock because they have a job. There has been a cycle of downturn and the boot has been on the other foot, but now it is changing, and probably will change again. Don't kill the goose, but make sure you get an egg.
I don't know about loving money, but I'm quite partial to it. If you sit around waiting for someone to plonk it in your lap, you'll be waiting awhile.

[whogivesa????]

So who will fly the super jungle jet if this new EBA doesn't get up?

Will it mean AWA's or will another company operate them?

[AnQrKa]

"It really is this sort of attitude that has seen our conditions slashed over the years."

Has the salary at VB really been slashed? What % have they cut your wage since the airline started 6 years ago? I didnt think it was legal.

[farrari]

Can some please tell me when their 777 are due:O

[sinala1]

No dates have been announced as yet, but predictions are mid to late 2008 for the B773's