Dubai...Centre of Excellence??

[divingduck]

So have all the "customers" of Dubai ATC out there received the Serco questionnaire?
Those of us in UAE centre were a little bemused that the MET branch had more spaces than we did to fill in, we had only 2 questions and unfortunately there is no space to fill in comments.
Most of our complaints are not overall, they seem to be crew specific so would be unfair to tar all the ATCOs with the same brush.
In answer to the classic "do you think that they understand your needs" (can't remember the actual wording but that is the gist of it) question...well all I can say is that when we are holding up to and beyond FL300 (on their behalf), loads more on the way and Dubai still insist on 20+ miles in trail, and giving departures priority over arrivals, I'd have to say....no!
Remember this is your opportunity to be heard.

[BlueSkye]

Private studies done by some of the crews at Dubai APP has finally proven that aircraft on the ground burn less fuel than aircraft holding. Also that it is less human resource intensive to manage a 15 000FT+ holding stack than to tell an aircraft to standby start. There are some very capable APP crews at Dubai but some that are downright incompetent. I think (pray hope) that they know who they are. Not that I expect any improvement. They are completely untouchable and this survey will probably end up in File 13 if the outcome doesn't meet the expectations.

So a big :ok: to those crews at APP where pre-planning and "Air Traffic Management" actually takes place during a shift. As for the bad apples :yuk:

Asbestos flame suit - check;
Full body armour - check;
Rhino skin active - check.

[Wiley]

I think the DXB APP and TWR controllers do a more than competent job working under the patenty ridiculous rescrictions they are forced to comply with.

With all the effort the management of the major local operator puts in to saving fuel, it's surreal when no one could deny - whatever spin you put on it - that the most wasteful port in unnecessary fuel burn per arrival is that company's home port. And no one seems willing to have it out with the "provider" up the other end of Shk Zed Rd to demand they (he?) start providing what the major customer needs rather than play politics and protect empires.

[divingduck]

Have to say that the watch that was on last night shift (saturday night), were great.
It was a difficult night due to an unexpected runway closure (debris) , the guys were very flexible and helped us clear the holds as quickly as possible!

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Have not put my survey in yet but looking forward to adding my input to help highlight where the +'s and -'s are.

As said before its very crew specific and to the good crews {you know who you are} it is always a pleasure to work with you. As an example giving Dubai 30nm through DESDI one night with no arrivals from the east and no pending depatures then the next night giving 10nm through both gates and lots of depatures seems to be crew specific not procedures. Dont get me started on the "snake/conga line"(call it what you will) where a/c are covering an extra 60+nm inside Dubai airspace after being held by enroute to give them 20+nm spacing through the gate............:ugh:

I'm sure your just having a laugh but if you are serious then would like to see the actual figures on fuel burn, but if a pilot is told to stanby start I would assume he would not be allowed to start the engines {please correct me if i am wrong as im not a pilot just a lowly enroute controller} therefore an engine that is not actually running should probably be useing less fuel then one thats holding an a/c in a stack at Fl300. If you are refering to one trundeling down a taxiway v's one in the stack at FL300 {again would like to see the actual figures} then the question should be why has the Dubai co-ordinator not "managed" the traffic and delayed start of these a/c so that the 15+ a/c in the sky can get on the ground BEFORE they run out of fuel. Again correct me if I have this concept wrong, but an a/c flaming out on final due fuel shortage {dont say it wont happen just look up ATSB findings for some examples} still has a couple hundred feet to go till it's on the ground whereas an a/c flaming out on a taxiway just stops.

As to it being "less human resource intensive" to hold 15a/c in a stack then to tell an a/c to "standby start" it would be fascinating to hear the logic for this. I'm not having a go, just cant wrap my brain around how that could be.
people involved?

15a/c(holding) = 30 aircrew + 1 controller + 1 planner = 32 v's 1a/c(standby start) = 2 aircrew and 1 tower controller = 3

workload?
15a/c working out fuel loads/dirvert times/controller instructions/flying a/c +controller and planner and all their work v's 1a/c sitting on ground telling passengers delay due busy period at airport + tower controller

But if it is actually "less human resourse intensive" to hold 15/ac then tell one to "stanby start" are there any TWR people who want a job swap? I'm looking to leave this easy enroute life and take up a more "intensive" job. :E {and before the abuse starts its a joke joyce}

Onto other subjects I hear that the second runway will be open in about 2 weeks. Someone of "great importance" was delayed on the ground for nearly an hour and has deemed that the runway will be open by the end of the month.
Any truth to this rumor??
cheers:ok:

[fatbus]

? for dxb controllers. Why cant they get a clearence delivery freq? would that person have to trained as a controller?

[Wiley]

Re the second runway, two questions:

1. I've been told that because of airspace constraints in the departures/arrivals area, the second runway will have almost no effect on increasing movements (hopefully not true, but nothing would surprise me anymore)['i]. Even if this is true, at the very least, it should make life considerably easier for the Tower controllers with the very tight tolerances they're working to now on late landing clearances. [i](Allow me to throw a large bouquet at them on this point - I've seen some very well-judged 'squeezed in' departures between long lines of arrivals over the last few months, none of which [that I've seen at least] have gone wrong. It's a quantum leap from the days - not too long ago - when I've been told to go around at around 1,000'AGL because an aircraft was still on the runway.)

2. Any truth to the rumour that the new runway subsurface is substandard (shades of the new Bangkok) and that's the reason it's so late in opening?

*****
Forget the dedicated clearance delivery frequency. Let's have data link for departures clearances.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

datalink? what are you trying to do? drag us all into the 20th century??:suspect:

next thing you will want slot times for arrivials, app and enroute in the same center with machines that can talk to each other, talking of machines maybe an enroute system that is designed to be used by multiple sectors with handoffs, STCA's, RAM's etc not 7 screens linked together useing a system that was supposed to be a single standalone approach screen with no warnings.................. :rolleyes:

[BlueSkye]

No Ali, I was being sarcastic with the hold vs start thing:p, although I wouldn't put it past DXB to come up with such a claim. The 21st century with its associated datalink and slots etc. will arrive just after teleportation in the Gulf.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology at first seems like magic." Arthur C Clarke.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Thanks Blue I sort of hoped that was the case but after working with the Z crew and all the associated problems they create you hit on a sore point and i would not have been surprised. :\
as an example of the Z crew prowess one night they asked us for 30nm all gates from 2230 local. when asked why the response was "we usually get a few start ups around this time". then asked have any requested start up approval yet, the response "no, but they might" at this stage we had holding from A100 to Fl 260.:ugh: