Saluting the PM

[passpartout]

Just watched BBC News report on the 'tragic' decision by the PM to resign his post. There was footage of an RAF officer saluting him when he got out of his business jet (not even belonging to the RAF) at Northolt.

Firstly, what was she doing there? I could understand it if he was alighting from one of our aircraft.

Secondly, what's the protocol on saluting the PM? Are there any others members of the Cabinet who are entitled to salutes if I happen to bump into them?

It's not like he's the head of state after all, no matter how much he might have wished to have been, and he is certainly not a commissioned officer. So would I get into the pooh if I refusd to salute his successor (whoever that may be)?

[maniac55]

Was it a one or two fingered salute? :E

[High_lander]

I was sat watching this in the office, and asked one of the many ex-service personnel, just as she saluted.


The bastard holding the umbrella over 'Swindling Tony's' head didn't offer it to the woman.:= := :=

Bastard, she deserved it more.

[jayteeto]

A joyous day, he should have had a guard of honour, complete with swords. Then start swinging the swords as he tries to run the gauntlet. Good riddance you little :mad: :mad: :mad:

[stiknruda]

Well from memory:
"One is expected to salute a funeral cortege."
Could the young officer have been mistaken?
Stik

[Pontius Navigator]

Certainly my colonel saluted a funeral cortege and we were told we should salute the wives of more senior officers too. Not sure how they were expected to return the compliment.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I suppose as the Queen's prime minister he is a representative of the Queen much in the same way that a commissioned officer represents the Queen. Question is though where does its stop? Royal Mail are under Royal Warrant but I'm not saluting the postie!!

I'll stick with saluting officers (or rather the Queen they represent) and treat civil serpents and politicians with the contempt they deserve if its all the same.

[Confucius]

Could be worse.

Could have a dour miserable blinkered characterless miserly Scotsman with a history of penny-pinching the armed forces as PM.


Oh...

**** :uhoh:

[Union Jack]

Saluting a senior civilian is merely a perfectly normal and acceptable sign of politeness ... even if the recipient concerned is a complete tosser!

Jack

[Pontius Navigator]

Jack,

You are quite right. A salute can be given in many ways.

My all time favourite had to be Trevor Howard in the Cockleshell Heros.

After talking with the CSM (William Hartnell?) he turned away, the CSM drew himself up to attention, 2 - 3, threw up a salute, 2 - 3 and Howard, without turning around, but perfectly synchronised, returned the salute.

I got one of those once. At Catterick I noticed a little movement out of the corner of my eye about 30 yards away, a Blue Tit perhaps. Then a bellowing voice, "Yes SIR, I am saluting YOU SIR."

I kept a better lookout after that :)

[South Bound]

Anyone remember the Customs, ettiquette and social responsibility book?

Had a whole piece in there about saluting. Don't remember it mentioning politicians, but it did mention saluting ladies out of politeness - didn't specifically mention only those of senior officers either.

Suppose it is just one of those things that has gone by the wayside...

Personally, I would not salute a senior civil servant unless instructed to do so...

[Pontius Navigator]

Southbound, I meant 'more' senior and not senior as such. As for a 2.5 saluting a mere lieutenant's wife, couldn't happen.


No married quarter for a married officer under 25 therefore no chance of a 2.5 meeting a junior wife at home :}

PS, don't you just love the way the CS klingon to their ranks:

C2, C1, B2 etc pining for the old EO, HEO, HTPO etc. What is an SLA equivalent to?

At least with HEO/HTPO we knew whether we were talking to a scribbly or a technician.

[South Bound]

Indeed, the way the CS love their rank equivalencies is fairly touching. Always good to leave pay chits lying around and whinge about pay rises in front of them, always put them back in their place.

Suppose the thing that annoyed me most was the way there was no equivalent to the SNCOs where I worked, and all the basic admin staff thought themselves equivalent to junior officers. The Chf Techs were particularly good at leaving their pay chits lying around for just this reason!

As for saluting ladies, I am fairly old fashioned and tend to use it as a formal greeting for any lady, no matter the rank of her partner. Remember even saluting mum as I met her outside the Cranditz church on grad day... Bit sad really, but there you are!

[BluntedAtBirth]

We need to go back to basic principles here :) As a gentleman, clearly you would not go out of the house without a hat. As a gentleman, when you met a lady you would raise your hat as a matter of ettiquette. As a gentleman in uniform, you would not raise your hat so you would salute, the equivalent military greeting. Rank of wife or husband is not involved, only the status of the lady as a lady...

[TheHogwartsBEngO]

I seem to recall from the 'CESR' briefs at Cranwell that you salute more Senior Officers (obviously) of all services, members of the Royal Family, Senior Officers of Other nations' armed forces, Cabinet Ministers and anyone in a Coffin. They also mentioned ladies too but it was briefed that that has tended to fall out of favour.

I've probably missed a few there such as Flags, ensigns, bits of boats etc.

I seem to remember the Gp Capt in 'The Battle of Britain' Film salutes a Jnr Officer's wife in one scene.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Does the lady in question need to prove her credentials to be considered as a lady?

I've probably missed a few there such as Flags, ensigns, bits of boats etc.


They are a strange lot those Navy folk.

[BluntedAtBirth]

Does the lady in question need to prove her credentials to be considered as a lady?

THS - Oh yes, it was all very 'Upstairs Dowstairs' and no doubt applied the old Army maxim of 'Officers' ladies, sgts' wives and soldiers women'. Nor does it take into consideration what an officer does if she is not a gentleman :)

[Doobs]

Why wouldnt the Duty Air Movements Officer (male or female) be there to meet a VIP visiting Northolt?
The DAMO or Staish always meets such visitors.
As for saluting, protocol dictates that such a visitor receives the obligatory salute.

[BEagle]

"Anyone remember the Customs, ettiquette and social responsibility book?"

Gp Capt Stradling's Customs of the Service, if memory serves. Included such gems as the correct etiquette for leaving calling cards when first posted to a new station.....

Do people stand up when the PMC enters the ante room these days?

[blogger]

Last time I saluted an officer 2 ringer it was I was walking across Tecso's car park I had my hat on in uniform so I saluted him.

His response to me "OH BOLLOCK$" while he had no hat on and his hands in his pockets.

Officer or To$$er you decide.

[cornish-stormrider]

Was once sailing on a vic 34 out of gosport, we were flying the raf ensign and were well out to sea somewhere, USN comes past in a big big big carrier doing about, oh lots of tied bits of string. we dipped the flag. The response was truly awesome..... Flags, horns, salutes etc..

If you've ever seen one underway from the water you know how big they are....

[South Bound]

C-S, sorry to be dull, but what does dipping the flag mean? Should know, but don't!

[BEagle]

To dip the ensign is to lower and rehoist it as a salute.

USN regulations require the salute to be returned to whoever renders it.

[maxburner]

I spent a fascinating few months at Greenwich on a staff college thingy. The Navy were punctilious at having the first lieutenant at the gate as RN ships webnt up and down the Thames, taking or giving salutes according to the seniority of the skipper. As the college had a 2 star head it (she?) was senior to most captains, so the boat did the saluting.

We also had cabins instead of rooms, sat down to toast the queen and went overboard if we walked on the grass. Run ashores were fun though, but I digress.

As for saluting Blair? No thanks.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I escorted a friend to Haslar once and sailor types were saluting when they got to the top of a set of stairs (ladder?). Strange people.

We RAF chaps rose above it as we so often do by removing our head dress. No head dress , no saluting.;)

[Strictly Jungly]

Ok wet blanket I will bite..............

Its a tradition thing................something you will be unfamiliar with.

[MrBernoulli]

Wouldn't salute the PM, his arse or his ugly wife. Not in the past, now or ever.

[Wader2]

Off Florida our cruise ship saluted another. The latter, a Disney ship, dipped in turn and also played Wish Upon a Star :)

As for politicians, I always remember their basic pay was the same as a sqn ldr. I treat them accordingly.

PS, I also remember how young they are too :}

[South Bound]

THS

seems a little crass to try and avoid others' traditions by breaking one's own rules and removing hats... You could have just got on with it as we expect visitors to RAF Stations to do...

Then again, maybe you are particularly special and able to rise above everything you consider to be below you.

[Zoom]

I've just checked my 1962 copy of Gg Capt Stradling's 'Customs of the Services', which, by the way, was first published in 1937 as 'Customs of the Service' (note singular). It became 'Customs of the Services' in 1947 when the other Services realised that they couldn't write anything longer than a short post on the website-equivalents of the era. It has 13 pages on saluting but there is no mention of saluting PMs or wives; to me, that means 'don't', but consider your career prospects as you 'don't'. When I was in MoD a new version was being drafted but I don't know how far that got. BTW, Stradling states that one shouldn't salute unforms in a military tailor's window or the National Anthem blaring out of a set being demonstrated at a 'wireless shop'. D*mn, I wish I had read that bit all those years ago; I would have made much quicker progress down the high street.

Jungly
You remind me of a discussion I had in the presence of assorted pongoes and fishheads. I said something along the lines of '.....and it is a tradition in the RAF that....' and a pongo interrupted to say '....dating right back to 1983!' Quite witty for a pongo, I though.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Its a tradition thing................something you will be unfamiliar with.

Of course not, being ex-Army and all and the Army being so short of tradition.

:p

My old regiment even marched at a faster pace, a tradition thing no less.

[The Helpful Stacker]

seems a little crass to try and avoid others' traditions by breaking one's own rules and removing hats... You could have just got on with it as we expect visitors to RAF Stations to do...


I don't know which RAF you are in but I was always taught to remove ones head dress indoors unless in Handbrake House or going into an officers office. The set of stairs (ladder) at Hasler was in neither what I would see as SHQ nor was I entering an officers office.

[BEagle]

In an increasingly bland world, it is surely a very good thing that the boat people stick to their mysterious 'Jackspeak' and traditions!

A shame that the rum ration ended though.

[Wader2]

and the lash?

[Strictly Jungly]

Beagle when you were in............we still had powder monkeys!!!!!!!!!

[South Bound]

THS, then you have always been taught incorrectly, there is no instruction for one to remove headress as one walks through a door into a building.

Anyway, your initial post suggested that you removed it so you didn't have to join in with the traditions at the Unit you were at. It is that, and the ';)' that suggest you think it is clever which is sad...

[Strictly Jungly]

Wet Blanket,

As you have decided to call people that are in a service blessed with tradtions "strange", then logically, as a former army chap (do you like collecting different uniforms?) which as you pointed out also has traditions, then are you not "strange" too?? (by your own warped standards)
:rolleyes:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Actually 'South Bound' the ';) ' was a tongue in cheek reference to the oft noted ability for RAF rank and file to be able to spot a saluting 'opportunity' and avoid with the speed and stealth of an underwater knife fighting instructor.
I guess tongue in cheek doesn't come across to well on the internet.
BTW,
THS, then you have always been taught incorrectly, there is no instruction for one to remove headdress as one walks through a door into a building.

I didn't mean must remove headdress but can remove headdress, except in the exceptions I mentioned.


Yes 'Strict Jungly' , I would definately call myself strange.

[ericferret]

My favourite was the padre at the apprentice college Arborfield in the early 70's, Basil Pratt .

On his travels with apprentices passing him by on both sides saluting he used to return the salute with both hands simultaneously.

If I remember correctly he was a an olympic canooist and also the padre on the Zaire river expedition.

Famous for telling the assembled throng at a passing out parade service that he knew what his nickname was with the apprentices.

"Bas the Spaz"

Try getting away with that now.

[Top Right]

Helpful Stacker's reference to the posties at serial 7 brought back a good ceremonial memory.

Early 90s and a demobbed SAC answers his front door to a postie with a recorded delivery. While the postie turns to go the young man realises from the print on the package that this must be his Granby medal. So he hollers to the postie to come back.

"What's up mate? Problem with the delivery?"
"No, this is my Gulf War medal. And this is about as best a ceremony as I'm going to get to receive it - so please pin it on me now".
So with the ex-airman stood to attention the Postie ends up pinning the medal on his chest there on his front doorstep - just picture the scene (could even have been in his pyjamas). Not an everyday scene in Newcastle, but well done for the ex-airman's quick thinking.

[Slotback]

As I recall you do not salute the PM because he is the PM but because he is a member of the Privy Council.

The paying of compliments is indeed extended to Senior Officers, Coffins, upon entering the office of any commissioned officer (last two regardless of rank), Senior officers of other services and other nations' services, members of the Royal Family and those 'Right Honourable' individuals appointed by Her Majesty to the Privy Council. An appointment to the Privy Council is for life, information on the council can be found at www.privy-council.org.uk.

Happy Saluting

[MrBernoulli]

As fer as ah know, we ain't got no 'portant bunch 'o folks who has ter look after the privvies roun' here. E'rybody done look after their own outhouse in rural Virginny, fer as ah know 'o course.

Y'all come back now, y'hear?:E

[ZH875]

Saluting Privy Councillors:

Lord Archer
David Blunkett
Keith Vaz


Yeah right.

[Union Jack]

Saluting Privy Councillors: Lord Archer David Blunkett Keith Vaz

Good point, but at least one of the above would really have appreciated the old Telephone Answering Officer's gag, "I am facing Whitehall and saluting you .... Now, sir!" :)

Jack

[samuraimatt]

How would David Blunkett even know if you saluted him or not.

[sikeano]

Chaps, Let us calm down for a minute
The lady in question if I am not wrong is from RN, and the PM's people at MOD have been quite generous to her folks at RN .So a salute is ok you never know by saluting the right people you could make good money by selling your war stories :ok
( I am being Cynical Here )

[Gerry Mobbs]

In my National Service Days(1957/58) in the RAF the "rule" was-if it moves salute it,if not paint it!

[cooheed]

Not forgetting uncovered Squadron or Station Standards if they happen to be marched past you.

[Fearofabluntplanet]

...is a bit old school and should probably be regarded as rather patronising. However, saluting a bridal party is de rigeur regardless of rank, commissioned status etc.

To continue the film references. 'In Which We Serve' (a shameless propaganda piece from about 1942) is a useful example. It features Noel Coward(sp?) as a RN Captain meeting a Petty Officer and his new wife on a train.

As he is in uniform and behatted the Capt pops one up to the new Mrs PO. Of course it's not a proper military salute but one of those shifty looking hidden palmed RN abortions but you get the picture. Bottom line is if you want to salute the ladies then their husband/life partners' rank isn't an issue.

As for the PM, it's only polite to salute snr Civil Servants when you meet them and he is the head of the civil service.

[Radar Command T/O]

Whether she should have saluted him or not, can you imagine the hullabaloo that would have been raised by the press and uneducated masses had she not done so?

The press and civvies in general don't need much of an excuse to have a go at the Armed Forces these days, so by saluting him she probably prevented a whole world of hurt being inflicted on the RAF by the tabloids.

After all, there is no rule saying you mustn't salute someone.

[4fitter]

As a fairly senior bod I will admit that I will salute any lady i recognise - including SAC Snook's wife. I will salute any officer in his office if I have my hat with me - normally beginning and end of day. In defence of THS I will normally remove my hat entering a building but replace if entering an officer's office (see previous). Colours, coffins, quarter-deck, royals, senior officers all get a salute. Thankfully, I return more than I receive (no pun) but I see it as a privilege and do not begrudge those seconds of exerting my right arm. And finally, the PM or any other poli or senior civil servant - not in 31 years and hoping not to whilst still in uniform.

4f

[DON T]

Travelling from West Germany to Berlin in civvies, you were required to salute the Russian Red Army conscript that checked your ID card. His returned salute always seemed smarter.

[Dan Winterroll]

I always remember the instruction at Cranwell, "You are not saluting the person but what they represent" If you remember that it is possible to salute all sorts of people without any pain whatsover! :)

[passpartout]

Yes but the PM represents the New Labour Government. I wouldn't want to salute that bunch of crooks either...

Good answers around though, thanks:)

["2s blind"]

Of course one ought always to salute ladies, in recognition of the fact, as I'm sure you are aware, that they have on full webbing beneath their outer clothing.
A real lady is defined by her habit of always being so appropriately attrired...............a British serviceman's defining quality is being able to identify a real lady at a glance. Servicewomen don't count.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Servicewomen don't count.

That goes without saying '2s Blind', a lady wouldn't join the military.;)

[A2QFI]

In the unlikely event that I ever met this slimey creature I would only need one finger to 'salute' him!

[Melchett01]

I always remember the instruction at Cranwell, "You are not saluting the person but what they represent"

Quite right, which is why we were told never to thank the person initiating the salute - after all they are not saluting you - but instead to reply with a 'Good morning/afternoon/evening' etc. That said, if you apply the principle of saluting what a person represents, I'm suprised that said young lady at the bottom of the stairs wasn't on the phone to Crimestoppers or the Home Office / Justice Ministry to tell them we had just found one of their lost criminals.

I remember meeting John Reid when it was his turn to screw us over out in Basrah in 05. I was absolutely disgusted with myself when I addressed him as 'Sir'. Had to go and give myself a stiff talking to after that and remind myself never to do it again - after all he wasn't a senior officer or the recipient of a Knighthood. After that distasteful incident I vowed that I would make sure that I never saluted a politician or called them sir / ma'am unless they were at one stage commissioned and had more stripes than me or had a Knighthood.

[X-Rating]

Just to buck the trend. I respect the PM for making difficult decisions and for allowing the military more room for manoeuvre than most of his predecessors. Too many of you whingers are on an ill-informed band waggon. He has more moral courage in his little finger than I suspect many of you. Over to all of the tinpot General Hindsights. Tin Hat on.

[Big Tudor]

Melchett,

Given some recent recipients of the knighthood it would gall me to raise a respectful hand to them. Elton John anybody := .
Anyway, surely it doesn't matter who the individual is, it is surely the position that they hold that you are respecting. Can recall having to force the old right arm up when approached by some senior bods! :hmm:

[charliegolf]

X-Rating

Whilst I consider myself at least a bit to the left of some of the Attilas on this forum, I would be interested to read your defence of a man I consider morally shallow, and who: whilst having never worn a uniform, has sent fine young men and women to their deaths on a lie; never once looked a bereaved loved one in the face and thanked them for their loss; hung David Kelly out to dry for demonstrating some spine, causing his death.

Bit long for one sentence, but you get my drift.

CG

[Melchett01]

Big Tudor,

I think I would have to draw the line at saluting Elton John, but he is certainly entitled, probably more so than our beloved leader, to be called Sir. And as for it being the position rather than the person that you are respecting, after the way that this shower has brought the position of PM into disrepute, I fail to see why I should salute Blair.

Saluting is a military tradition, that as has been alluded to in earlier posts, translates to certain aspects of civi life eg funeral cortege, on meeting a lady etc as a sign of respect. Blair is not and has not been in the military and so does not qualify to be saluted on that principle alone. As for saluting him out of respect ..... only when he finally shows some respect to the Armed Forces - Charlie Golf said all that needs to be said about that.

[Lancelot37]

The only salute I'd give Blair is a two fingered one.

[Archimedes]

Would this also not be a case of the PM being appointed by the Queen, therefore that's why a salute is given?

Although Blair (and many other politicians) forget the fact, the PM owes his/her office to the Sovereign, who invites him/her to form a government, and who may dismiss him (the understanding that this would be unconstitutional except in extreme circumstances notwithstanding, the right to do so remains).

[wiccan]

Don't forget, you also salute a V.C. [worn or not]. Also as an AC2 in 1963, I was told to take my hat off indoors...'cos it hurts your hands when you bash them on the corridor walls.
bb

[passpartout]

Now I understood that it was an American thing that they saluted those that had been awarded the Congressional Medal Honor (Honour), and that it's a very recent thing that people have decided that VC winners should be accorded the same accolade.

So what's the truth on that? I think that no matter how brave one had been, I couldn't see senior ranks in the Vctorian or Edwardian Forces saluting junior ranks who had been awarded the VC.

I'll salute Cpl (?) Beharry if I ever have the honour to meet him, but I'm buggered if I'll salute those slimy gits in govt

[buoy15]

Archimedes
"This would be unconstitutional except in extreme circumstances":p
If you have a copy of "our constitution" - could you PM me so I can browse through it in quick time before the next election

[Archimedes]

Contrary to popular belief, we do have a written constitution - but it's buried in thousands of official and legal documents written since, oooh, about 1215...

(If anyone doeswant to investigate this sort of thing, Peter Hennessey is amongst the best on constitutional conventions. Try The Hidden Wiring: Unearthing the British Constitution (1995) and The Prime Minister: The Office and Its Holders since 1945 (2000). We now return you to the banter...)

[Melchett01]

MiG - get off that fence - those splinters must really hurt:}

[Froobs]

X Rating = Arse :yuk:

[ericferret]

I remember failing to salute the Duke of Edinburgh (both of us in uniform) at a prize presentation ceremony about 30 years ago. To this day I am always surprised to see my testicles are still in place, I was certain the RSM would use them for christmas tree decorations.

[Union Jack]

Back to the long course at Netley for you, or perhaps the old Kent earthquake has shaken your remaining brain cells up a bit. I’ll say this as gently as I can “Mrs Thatcher is no longer Prime Minister!” But it was nice of you to call her “him”. Oh! You mean Mr Blair do you? Well, Cherie (for it can only be you - and "X-Rating" is a very apt nom de plume for you), nice try, but suggesting that “he has more moral courage in his little finger than I suspect many of you” is frankly a bit of a cheek when you consider the courage so much more tangibly shown by so many of the contributors for whom this forum is intended - myself excluded in the courage category of course.

Two words that I'm sure that others will very swiftly have mentioned before I can next get online -David Kelly. Ever heard of Dr David Kelly and the “moral courage” displayed in his tragic case by Mr Blair - so ably aided and abetted by his accomplices Alastair Campbell, "Sir" John Scarlett et al - and that’s just for starters.

Jack

PS For 4fitter - Vis a vis your “And finally, (saluting) the PM or any other poli or senior civil servant - not in 31 years and hoping not to whilst still in uniform” is strangely at odds with your having become a “fairly senior bod”!:) Please also see Post # 9 on page 1.

PPSS For Samuraimatt - “How would David Blunkett even know if you saluted him or not?” Before you head back to “Spotters’ Corner”, please reread Post # 45, and engage brain - and don’t even think of sending me a PM!

[lsh]

Ah "Stradling" (Etiquette book mentioned by Beagle earlier)
Boy, did that guy give me some problems! I shall explain.....
For my last tour I had the immense pleasure of working in an office manned entirely by Specialist Aircrew Officers, apart from me (Enlisted Filth!).
It was "open plan" with five of us. The "Boss" sat on the far side with the other four of us in a block, together.
The "Flight Commander" was the only one with a Degree(!) and had picked-up a copy of "Stradling" from the Station library.
He would often read aloud for our/my benefit eg " If you enter the bar of a public house and encounter an airman, leave at once, it will do neither of you any good to socialise" etc, etc, etc.
It went on endlessly for MONTHS, until one day when the office was full and he quoted once too often.
I listened carefully then politely asked:
"Could you please look up what Stradling says about Officers having overdue library books, Sir"
Fun for all!
lsh
(PS; last we heard of Stradling!)

[An Teallach]

Blair digging graves to make his legacy (http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=740292007).

A typically forthright interview with the Shir Sean. It brings up the interesting question for the gentlemen of the press: When quoting Shir Sean, how many asterisks should one use to indicate he is talking about "That arsehole Blair"? Should it be 3 (a***hole) or 4 (a****hole) as in arshehole?

[passpartout]

Is that Connery the Scottish Nationalist who doesn't feel the need to actually live in Scotland?

If he wants to express an opinion, maybe he should actually experience life in his homeland:mad:

He's a git, and I wouldn't salute him, either:*

[Brewster Buffalo]

Although Blair (and many other politicians) forget the fact, the PM owes his/her office to the Sovereign, who invites him/her to form a government, and who may dismiss him (the understanding that this would be unconstitutional except in extreme circumstances notwithstanding, the right to do so remains).

In 1975 the Governor-General of Australia, who is the Queen's representative and appointed by her, dismissed the Prime Minister Gough Whitlam but I don't think she can do the same in the UK. As I understand it she certainly can't dissolve Parliament. I think Mrs Thatcher is the only Prime Minster removed from office without an election.

Read more at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis

[JessTheDog]

Nope. I physically couldn't have brought myself to salute Bliar, Hoon, Blunkett, Mandelson, Reid or any of the other worst offenders, regardless of b0llockings or disciplinary action. As for "Sir" the only recipients are more senior military officers and the Royal Family. Post-titles for everything else!

I saluted an Army major once. He was without hat. He stood to attention as I passed to return the compliment. A gentleman!

[Archimedes]

BB, HMQ can remove the PM here if she so chooses. The right of the monarch to do this has never been rescinded, but the last time it was exercised was 1834, when William IV sacked Lord Melbourne [alluded to in the wiki article], on the grounds that he thought Melbourne was too kind to Catholics (despite the fact that Catholics had been emancipated in 1829).

This was regarded as a gross mis-use of power by the monarch, and it became accepted that the monarch would never sack the PM, unless (for instance) the PM went totally bonkers and, despite being deposed by his party as a result, refused to leave number 10, claiming he was still the legitimate PM. If HMQ then said ' one begs to differ, as one believes Sir Alan Sugar says "you're fired", Prime Minister' that would be that. Unless there were the exceptional circumstances noted above, this would now create a huge constitutional crisis, which - almost certainly - parliament would probably win.

As for dissolving parliament, she has done for every general election since 1955. The monarch is the only person who can dissolve parliament.
Again, it would take exceptional circumstances for HMQ to do this - most notably if a parliament declared that it was going to ignore the requirement for an election every five years and continue on its merry way. What happens normally is that the PM decides when he/she is going to have the general election and goes to the palace to ask HMQ to dissolve parliament. A royal proclamation is issued calling for the issuing of the writs to summon a new parliament.

Conversely, the monarch may refuse the request for a dissolution - for instance, if a minority government requested a dissolution, but it was clear that a coalition commanding a majority could be formed, the Queen might (upon taking advice) refuse, allow the coalition to form, and then invite the leader of the coalition to become PM.

We now return you to the question of whether Mr Bliar should be saluted in the approved manner, or in a less orthodox fashion...

[Union Jack]

Is that Connery the Scottish Nationalist who doesn't feel the need to actually live in Scotland?

If he wants to express an opinion, maybe he should actually experience life in his homeland:mad:

He's a git, and I wouldn't salute him, either:*

Nor would he want you to salute him, not least since he was once a Leading Seaman in the Royal Navy!

Curiously enough, he also used to be our milkman when I was a small child in Edinburgh, and when I see him, as I do from time when we are both visting the US at the same time, I still say "Two pints please, Mr Connery", to which he replies "It's two pints please, Sir Sean to you young man"! And your personal knowledge of Sir Sean which enables you to abuse him is based on what exactly, PP?

As for his political opinions, it matters not whether he still lives in Edinburgh or in Lyford Quay in the Bahamas - you can take the Scot out of Scotland, but you cannot take Scotland out of the Scot. I currently have to live in England, but it doesn't stop me from feeling very strongly about what is happening in Scotland - and right now I am laughing myself silly about Labour's discomfiture following the Scottish elections. Unlike Sir Sean (and absolutely nothing to do with my monniker), I hold no particular brief for the Scottish Nationalists, but you would have to have a heart of stone not to laugh at their win over Labour, however narrow the margin! So, more power to Sir Sean for helping them to heighten their profile - I salute you!

Jack

PS What brought me to England? The love of a good woman - but please don't tell my wife! And, no, she's not English either ....

[wiccan]

IF I was still in th Mob, I would like to give "Tone" a salute.. of one finger...../ 'cos he ain't worth a "Full One" \/
Work it out.....
bb

[The Helpful Stacker]

...this would now create a huge constitutional crisis, which - almost certainly - parliament would probably win.


Especially as the people who swore an oath of allegiance to the Queen are too busy on a fools errand to back Her Majesty up.:rolleyes:

[cornish-stormrider]

Lets all mutiny at that useless tosspot in no 10 before he runs away and lets Dr Doom take over, all those in favour........

[Maufe]

Fair enough, Mr Stormrider, you have your little vote but don't forget that Mr Blair, who you and many others on this thread dish out such (IMHO) juvenile abuse to, was democratically elected under the British system so get over and on with it.

By all means have your own opinions of the man and party but until the next election, tough!

Incidentally I don't like the bloke either.

[ericferret]

In the late 70's I regularly saw a father and son team driving in to work together at Middle Wallop. Father was a major, son was a sergeant (Brian Mills). Out of the car, hats on, face each other across the roof, salute and off to work. Always made me smile.

[fawkes]

And isn't that the point - saluting is a courtesy, and let us call them compliments rather than marks of respect. Whatever one may personally think of the individual, it is discourteous to withold a salute as it is to fail to return one. One thing that sets the Services apart is that we retain (in the face of cuts and mismanagement) both professionalism and politeness.

I can show respect for uncased colours, funeral corteges and
the national anthems of foreign states, but if I really want to show my contempt for poloticians and undeserving senior officers, then my salute must be especially crisp.

By all means salute the Prime Minister, but address him as Mr Blair, not, as he would wish, Tony, or Sir.

[Wader2]

Maufe,

Fair enough, . . . but don't forget that Mr Blair, . . . , was democratically elected under the British system . . .

The key word here is British System.

First only 61% of the electorate bothered to vote.

Of the electorate, 53% were in seats won by Labour and 33% were in seats won by Conservative.

In 2005 33.24% voted Con and 22.64% voted Liberal with a total of 63.8% not voting Labour.

[Widger]

Instructions from the boss.....so pay attention.
"The personal salute, in addition to being a mark of respect, is an act of courtesy and good manners. It is never wrong to salute even if subsequently the person saluting another discovers that person is not entitled to be saluted."
Furthermore:
"An Officer of Her Majesty's diplomatic or other non-military service is entitled to the honours appertaining to his office"
So, regardless of one's views, the PM is entitled to a salute, even in common courtesy

[Rheinstorff]

The PM is one of HM The Queen's Privy Counsellors. Salutes are therefore entirely in order as the saluter would be symbolically paying complements and showing loyalty to HM The Queen rather than the individual.

[QFIhawkman]

Quoting Fawlkes:
"By all means salute the Prime Minister, but address him as Mr Blair, not, as he would wish, Tony, or Sir."


Sorry chap, but that's incorrect. And what "he wishes" doesn't come into it. There are rules, and they are very simple:

1: He IS to be saluted. He is the appointed head of Her Majesty's Government, so recieves a salute whether you happen to like him or not. This is equally applicable to all members of the Cabinet. (But not to the opposition).
2: He is addressed as "Prime Minister" in the first instance, "Sir" in any following converation. All other cabinet ministers are addressed similarly as "Minister" then "Sir".
3: All of this applies notwithstanding your own personal feelings on matters political.. It's in the rules, it's not left down to your own whims on whether you like someone or not. After all, do you only salute senior Officers that you like personally, or respect?

(And in response to the original question):
4: The nice young lady at Northolt who saluted the PM was no doubt the duty Protocol Officer or Movements Officer. It is common courtesy to have the Station Commander or a nominated deputy present at all movements involving a VVIP at an RAF airfield. Regardless of who's operating the flight.

Has no-one here ever been involved in a VIP visit to their station? The 5 pages of rubbish so far on this subject would seem to indicate so.

[Maufe]

You are of course correct, Wader, that's why I avoided using the word 'majority'.

However, that's the system we use in this country - have you got any ideas for a better one?

[papajuliet]

Yes - do away with the one person one vote system. Have differing numbers of votes allotted in accordance with certain criteria - take them away from criminals and certain other categories eg people whose greatgrandparents were not borne here. Yes ,I know, there would still be people getting around the system but, at least, it's a start towards something fairer.

[Froobs]

Doing away with proportional representation would be a better start

[ericferret]

We don't have proportional representation!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[snapper41]

Maybe a bit off-thread, but don't you also have to salute a VC holder, regardless of the holder's rank?

[Kitbag]

Maybe a bit off-thread, but don't you also have to salute a VC holder, regardless of the holder's rank?

Nope, although I would have no problem doing so. It is not required by QRs or the Warrant. I think you may be confusing this custom with the Americans saluting holders of the Congressional Medal of Honor. VC holders do get a pension of £1300 per annum

BTW I saluted an Army Captain a few weeks ago as was riding past on a bike. Bless him, he actually sat up with arms straight to return the compliment.

[Blacksheep]

When I was at Northolt we had a "book o'rools" that said who was entitled to what and when. As thick as QRs it was. We also had a Staish who spent nearly all his duty hours over on Southside, saluting visitors and engaging them in idle chat, while OC Operations ran the station for him.

Prime Ministers and Ministers were definitley salutable people, along with senior civil serpents (i.e. those who arrived in chauffeur driven government limo's), Commonwealth High Commissioners and foreign ambassadors on official duty and suchlike. Its hard to tell when a foreign ambassador is on official duty ( except the Aussie High Commissioner. He always shaved, and wore shoes and a shirt when he was "official" )

[Wader2]

PapaJuiette, people whose greatgrandparents were not borne here

Yes, great idea. However no taxation without representation so the tax burden would increase for all of you and I would welcome the tax relief entailed.

My mother was born in India, my grandfather in Ireland, and my great-grandparents too and that over 150 years ago.

Be real.

Peace be with you.

[An Teallach]

PapaJuliette wrote:

take them away from criminals and certain other categories eg people whose greatgrandparents were not borne here.

As borne means carried or supported, I fail to understand why only those non-criminals whose great grandparents were immigrants or imported slaves should be allowed to vote in your great scheme. What about us poor souls whose grandparents happened to be indigenous? As slavery was abolished in the empire 200 years ago, your electorate would be exceedingly small and shrinking rapidly.

Either that or your intellect and/or literacy level is/are commensurate with your apparent grasp of modern constitutional democracy.

[Blacksheep]

Either that or your intellect and/or literacy level is/are commensurate with your apparent grasp of modern constitutional democracy.I'm a dirty foreigner, despite my great grandparents, grandparents and parents being born and bred in England. I was born in South Africa while my father served King and Country in the Royal Navy at the naval base in Simonstown.

Spike Milligan was declared to be either Irish or Pakistani by the Home Office. Either way, because South Africa and Ireland are non-Commonwealth countries and at the time Pakistan's membership was under suspension, neither of us was allowed to vote in a British election or could be issued with a British passport. I had already been serving in the Royal Air Force for five years when I discovered this.

After convincing the Secretary of State for Home Affairs that I was the legitimate son of an Englishman who was himself the legitimate son of an Englishman, the Secretary of State exercised his prerogative and declared that I could be classified as "British by Descent". This entitiled me to a British Passport and the right to vote, although my children would not automatically acquire British citizenship unless they were born in UK.

Since I handed in my beret and S.D. cap I am no longer able to salute, but I'm quite happy to tug my civilian forelock to both the Secretary of State for Home Affairs and his boss. The likes of I are beholden to the likes of 'e and it wouldn't do to upset a chap who could have you cast out into Statelessness with a nod of his head, now would it? ;)

[winkle]

I may be wrong ( i often am) but there is no saluting of the VC but i believe the etiquette is that if a VC holder enters a room then all should stand regardless of rank. this is out of respect for the VC holder.
when you read a lot of citations for the VC then maybe they should be accorded the privelage of a salute, again it is not wrong to salute in these situations if your personal view point merits such action.

[GANNET FAN]

"BTW I saluted an Army Captain a few weeks ago as was riding past on a bike. Bless him, he actually sat up with arms straight to return the compliment."


I remember a senior CPO when he was riding a bike saluting my Dad in exactly the same way, stiff arms and eyes right!

When only a humble deckie on a yacht, after being invited on board one of HM ships by a friend I was at school with, saluting me as I left.

[Wader2]

Maufe asked, Is there a better system - ... than one person one vote etc?

How about abolishing political parties as an entity?

At a stroke you would avoid the need to fund party machines.
You would avoid the tactical voting.
You could vote for the man you think will represent the constituency best rather than against him because you don't want his party elected.

When the best are elected the ones who can secure the greatest support amongst those elected is asked to form a Government. The runner up becomes deputy.

The early US Presidential elections had the opposing candidate appointed as Vice President. That was certainly interesting and certainly fully representational.

[effortless]

We used to salute Winny and he wasn't even pm by then.

[BluntedAtBirth]

We used to salute Winny and he wasn't even pm by then.


Ah, good point. Notwithstanding his prime ministerial rank or time in the Admiralty, he was a retired Lt Col (CO of 6 RSF in 1916 after his resignation from the Government after The Dardanelles). While not 'required', saluting a retired senior officer is an appropriate mark of respect. Now if we ever again have a Prime Minister who has served...

[wotsit]

never mind all this old tosh!

Can one assume that the RAF officer (DAMO?) in question is only employed to salute dignitaries!!!!????

In this age of defence cuts, shurely shum mishtake......

[BluntedAtBirth]

Yes wotsit, and the padre only works on a Sunday...

[WhiteOvies]

As Officer of the Day (in RN establishments) or Orderly Officer (for the RAF) this is one of the expected duties which pull you away from your Sqn/desk etc. Saluting VIPs is all part and parcel of this and it's usually when you don't do it that its picked up on, not when you do!:hmm:

[wotsit]

No, you misunderstood me!

Is this officer solely employed to salute people? ie. he/she doesnt have a desk to be pulled away from....

Cant believe we would waste a military salary (presumably quite well paid) just on this????

[samuraimatt]

Is this officer solely employed to salute people? Yes wotsit he is the Saluting Officer. After IOT he moves to professional training which consists of learning how to salute various dignitaries and the subtle differences required when saluting foreign Officers and dignitaries. As we are now in the times of being tri-service so is the course they do at Shrivenham.

[wotsit]

Man, glad I didnt join up, I would have been gutted to have gone through all that officer training to wind up as some glorified mobile saluting unit. Surely some scientist could invent some kind of automated saluting device to undertake this arduous task?

Makes you wonder ........

WHAT IS THE WORST JOB IN THE RAF??????

[charliegolf]

WHAT IS THE WORST JOB IN THE RAF??????

OIC Daft Question-answering?

CG

[Il Duce]

I recall seeing a photo of Mrs Thatcher, when she was PM, in RAF uniform and wearing the rank of Group Captain - does the PM automatically become an honourary member of the RAF in that rank?

[Roland Pulfrew]

Yes wotsit he is the Saluting Officer. After IOT he moves to professional training which consists of learning how to salute various dignitaries and the subtle differences required when saluting foreign Officers and dignitaries. As we are now in the times of being tri-service so is the course they do at Shrivenham.

Man, glad I didnt join up, I would have been gutted to have gone through all that officer training to wind up as some glorified mobile saluting unit. Surely some scientist could invent some kind of automated saluting device to undertake this arduous task?

Makes you wonder ........


SM

Respect. Probably one of the biggest fishes landed this year :D :D

[wotsit]

Hi again

Iv just bin thinking about going to the AFCO, but rather than make myself look silly in front of the staff I was wondering:

WHat grades do you need to join the RAF as a saluting officer. Im a really keen ATC cadet and reckon that the job could be pretty cool, getting to meet all them cool people like the Prime minister and the chancellor. My CO reckons I could make Cpl soon so im used to leading bodies of troops. My sarge reckons im the best Cpl he has seen and he should know cos hes 17.

I think being a pilot is a bit poncy and a little on the homoerotic side. Saluting officer is the life for me :)

Do I need a degree to do this and if so, what would be the best degree to do???

[samuraimatt]

Good news wotsit. You can combine being a Pilot and saluting at the same time. You see pilots do a course called ISS which stands for Individual Saluting Studies. This course, providing they pass, enables them to be called upon at short notice to stand in for the DAMO (Duty Appendage Moving Officer) if he or she is on leave/OOA or on another course. The course is run and administered from Shrivenham and you are given an ISS tutor who will see you through and mark your coursework. There is of course an exam both written and practical at the end.

[JessTheDog]

...but don't forget that Mr Blair, who you and many others on this thread dish out such (IMHO) juvenile abuse to, was democratically elected under the British system so get over and on with it.

Hitler was also democratically elected, it didn't stop him from being a bad egg.
And isn't that the point - saluting is a courtesy, and let us call them compliments rather than marks of respect. Whatever one may personally think of the individual, it is discourteous to withold a salute as it is to fail to return one. One thing that sets the Services apart is that we retain (in the face of cuts and mismanagement) both professionalism and politeness.
1: He IS to be saluted. He is the appointed head of Her Majesty's Government, so recieves a salute whether you happen to like him or not. This is equally applicable to all members of the Cabinet. (But not to the opposition).
2: He is addressed as "Prime Minister" in the first instance, "Sir" in any following converation. All other cabinet ministers are addressed similarly as "Minister" then "Sir".
3: All of this applies notwithstanding your own personal feelings on matters political.. It's in the rules, it's not left down to your own whims on whether you like someone or not. After all, do you only salute senior Officers that you like personally, or respect?
These are all fair points...normally. However, when I joined up, the illegal, deceit-shrouded and lunatic invasion of Iraq was not even a twinkle in the deranged staring eye. Add to that the remarkable discourtesy Bliar has shown with regard to tradition, whether it is the refusal of his missus to curtsey to Her Majesty or the tearing-up and flouting of constitutional safeguards.
The Commission is addressed to the "trusty and well-beloved" recipient and signed by the Sovereign. The key word is "trusty". Although the Sovereign is constitutionally responsible for appointing ministers, in a modern democracy it would be impossible to remove an errant minister. Bliar was entrusted with sweeping prerogative powers and has abused them extensively, to the detriment of this nation and world security. The supposedly sacred bond of trust has been shattered. I came to this conclusion in 2003 - during the Hutton inquiry - and resigned, quietly and without fuss.
I suspect that most of those in uniform would like to give Bliar two fingers but (in the unlikely event of being in this position) would feel it to be unwise, perhaps even inappropriate (I have some admiration for those who can remain so dispassionate despite what has occurred) and I suspect those who feel as strongly as I do have voted with their feet already.

[Pontius Navigator]

Il Duce I recall seeing a photo of Mrs Thatcher, when she was PM, in RAF uniform and wearing the rank of Group Captain - does the PM automatically become an honourary member of the RAF in that rank?
You stupid Woman (well he never did say stupid man) how could you think she was an honourary member of the RAF. She was a WOMAN. She was obviously at risk of getting a chill. Clearly the gallant Group Captain lent her his coat.
:)

[Blacksheep]

Is this officer solely employed to salute people? The RAF Northolt Station Commander is employed for that purpose, while the OC Operations runs the station. Its a bit like a Royal Navy ship, where the Captain is a figure head and a First Lieutenant does all the proper work while the POs run the ship.

The fact that Groupie failed to show up and Mr. Blair was met by the Duty Saluter was possibly a subliminal message?

[Il Duce]

Pontius N, I bow to your superior intelligence. Of course, at that time, it would have been the WRAF. This particular photo was of the formal type - as one would see a senior officer sit behind a desk, pen poised, ready to make important decisions, smiling that knowing smile ("I'm in charge, you can relax now").

[Pontius Navigator]

Il Duce, touche :)

Mind you I got to shake Ted Heath's hand.

[Il Duce]

I'd like to meet the outgoing PM and shake him by the....................

[RobinXe]

fnar fnar!

[Blacksheep]

This particular photo was of the formal type - as one would see a senior officer sit behind a desk, pen poised, ready to make important decisions, smiling that knowing smile ("I'm in charge, you can relax now").So, Britain was under the command of a WRAF Group Officer from 1979 to 1990? :ooh:

That explains a lot... :}

[GeoAC]

Nothing so stupid as saluting the CO`s car even when he ain`t even in it! Only because his pennant is on the thing! Which proves the point methinks that it is NOT the person who is being saluted.

[ZH875]

Decisions, Decisions.....


Do I salute the Prime Minister.......

Do I salute Chief_Two....


Which deserves it least.....

Discuss.

[gar170]

I'm afraid i would rather spend time in the glass house than salute that K**b.It was pointed out that on the ceremonies to commemorate the 25 years of the Falklands that when Maggie was presented to the Queen that she curtsied yet the Blair bitch would only shack her hand if this is the respect that the prime minster and his slapper of a wife shows then its about time they both knobbed off.

[buoy15]

gar170
Bit cruel what?
Because she has a smile and a mouth like a torn pocket, you can't really call her a slapper - some slapper's I've met in Manchester and Doncaster were quite lovely