Transfer of Jet Technology to the USA

[Torque Split]

I am actually a student at Cranfield University School of Management and am currently studying Open Innovation (OI)(the sharing of Intellectual Property etc. between companies to speed up and maximise market opportunities). I was thinking back to Frank Whittle and his company Power Jets Ltd and was wondering if this could be used as an early example of OI. I was hoping someone could help me with any source material relating to the decision to do it and the short term and long term benefits associated.
What if, the rights were licensed to Bell and GE back then rather than being "given".

Comments please.

[411A]

I rather imagine the 'sell' idea would simply not have worked.

Radar provided a perfect example. The Brits developed it and used it somewhat effectively during 1940, but these installations were large and combersome, and had less than desirable resolution.

What to do?
Develop the magnetron...but then it was transported to GE in the United States for improvement and manufacture.

Same same with turbine engines, I would think.
Lets be frank here.
Britian, after the war, was in a rather sad shape, and needed considerable assistance...assistance provided both before/during and after the war, and the USA was the provider.

In other words, it was payback time for Britian.

[om15]

The following three books contain some interesting info on the subject, the ability of the massive US production industry to build the Merlin and also the transfer of information and know how to the States is well covered.

1). Whittle- The true story. by John Golley.ISBN 0-906393-82-5. Airlife.

2). Frank Whittle Invention of the Jet. by Andrew Nahum ISBN 1 84046 662 6 Icon Books Ltd.

3) Hives and the Merlin. by Sir Ian Lloyd and Peter Pugh.ISBN 1 84046 644 8 Icon Books Ltd.

This should get you started,
Best regards, om15.

[ZeBedie]

My Dad told me that soon after the war, the government gifted most of the knowledge Whittle had acquired to the USA and paid him a modest fee
(£500 000 springs to mind?). I think the Russians learnt what they needed by foul means. But I'm sure I'll be corrected by someone who really knows.

[pigboat]

After WW2 Britain also sold RR Nene and Derwent (http://www.vectorsite.net/avmig15_1.html) engine technology to the Soviets. As the result of that action, Allied forces in Korea wound up fighting Soviet MiG 15's powered by what was essentially knock-off Rolls-Royce engines.

[Kolibear]

A large number of the Tallboy bombs dropped also had 'Made in the US' stamped on them.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I don't think the technology was sold to the Soviets - the post war Labour government gave it to their red friends! :\

[henry crun]

SSD: Can't remember where I read it but I think the story went something like this.

RR were approached by a Soviet trade mission wanting to buy jet engines.
RR were keen to make the sale, which would have been in the US dollars UK needed desperately, but recognised the political implications and needed government approval anyway.

Labour government, as you say, was kindly disposed towards the USSR, and gave the sale not just the nod, but their enthusiastic support.

[phil gollin]

May not be exactly what you are after but a lot is tied into Patents.

Most Patents had the facility for the governments to use them without licence during war (however at least in UK and I THINK USA after the war the relevent license fees were paid). In addition, in both WW1 and WW2 the UK and USA had a similar agreement for use of each others' patents (open and secret - well mostly - see below). Obviously if you were at war the enemies open patents were used irrespective.

One well know "problem" was the production of either Bofors or Oerlikons (sorry can't remember which) in the US. The British had a licence for production IN THE UK. They sent the drawings to the US and asked for production. During the war the originators found out and tried to get production stopped (!) as the license was for the UK only -they were ignored, however after the war a suitable fee was agreed and paid.

The transfer of technology and knowledge was started by the Tizard Mission but detailed discussions and agreements were made by the Bailey Committee. At least for the UK the technical and operational knowledge was mostly given away "free". However there were sometimes consequences, e.g. when the US tried to patent the Proximity Fuze their application was contested and finally rejected because of the previous British Patent covering the information passed to the US.

Less one think everthing was all sweetness and light some information was withheld either openly (the US for instance refused details of the Norden bombsight) or clandestinly (if one looks at the minutes of the Bailley Committee certain technical subjects were deliberately not revealed on the basis that if asked about this subject we will tell the US what they want to know, but not until they mention the subject).

(Re. the jet technology a fee was agreed post war - a rather silly amount if I remember correctly)

[Cypherus]

From my understanding of the situation the UK government treated Frank Whittle very badly indeed over the engine he put together, however under the light of historical fact Whittle appeared to have been aware of turbine theory in the construction of jet engines but seems to have discounted this idea in favour of his own design, that this proved to be considered a mistake is debatable considering the level of metallurgical expertise at the time and it is my belief that this lack of available materials to make viable turbine blades probably steered his course.

As to how the US got hold of Whittles design, considering the huge financial debt owed to the US by the British Government, only recently paid off, that they were handed the design along with working engines is no surprise, also if you understood the depth of feeling regarding the US denial of information on the Manhattan projects research in the UK it is also no surprise that both drawings and again working engines found there way into Stalins clutches, doubtful a fee was paid for them either.

[411A]

When one considers the 'reds under the bed' in the UK, post war, one can clearly understand the problems faced...especially with the USA's desire to keep vital technology out of harms way.

Lets face facts here.
The British were VERY good at developing superb new systems, but unfortunately these 'secrets' were leaked...big time.
Many times behind the iron curtin.

What a shame.

[NutherA2]

411A,
You mean leaks from British agents such as:
Fuchs,Greenglass & Hall, Henry Glasser, Harry Dexter White, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg etc., etc.?:confused:

[Brian Abraham]

No, he means the infamous Cambridge spy ring - Anthony Blunt, Kim Philby, Guy Burgess and Donald Maclean - that betrayed British secrets to the Soviet Union in the 30s, 40s and early 50s.

[rolling20]

Wasnt there a similar story re the Comet? Im not sure if it was post the discovery of metal fatigue, but a US delegation ( from Boeing i believe)came across to share 'secrets' with their UK counterparts. The UK team gave away a lot of info, and an invitation to visit the US and learn about what they were up to was promised but never materialised! We were 'broked' into giving away the 'family silver'.
I cannot believe that no-one ever took the Labour Government of Atlee to task over what they did in 1947. The 'giving' of jet engine could have had dire consequences for us all during the ensuing Cold war.

[Brian Abraham]

The giving of the 25 Nenes to the Russians did come back to haunt us as they reverse engineered it and put it in the Mig-15 which we were up against during the fraca in Korea. A great aircraft but the 86 enjoyed a enviable kill ratio thank heavens. Still, with out the gift I wonder what the Korean war would have amounted to.

[pigboat]

Rolling20, yes that story certainly did make the rounds, as did the story that in retaliation the Brits played their cards pretty close to the chest with the hitherto unknown characteristics on deep stall obtained during flight testing of early T-tail aircraft.