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cammron
5th May 2007, 06:58
According to a spokesman a 737-800 form Cameroo n to Nairobi has gone missing.Hope all is ok.Will follow up with more news.

Any one else got more info?

AGPwallah
5th May 2007, 06:59
Here's the story from the Beeb:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6627485.stm

Founder
5th May 2007, 07:34
They lost contact with the aricraft at 22:05 CET

Rollingthunder
5th May 2007, 07:59
News from the Dark Continent seems to be hard to get.

When was radar contact lost?
Where was the A/C when radar contact was lost?
Is it normal for there to be no radar coverage over the continent?
Is anyone up searching?

MarcJF
5th May 2007, 08:00
Their web site seems to be down also, i can't believe that in this age of technology we still know nothing of the fate of this aircraft. Fingers crossed.

Solid Rust Twotter
5th May 2007, 08:15
Mr Thunder

Radar coverage is sparse to nonexistent over Africa.

cammron
5th May 2007, 08:15
We use Bush telegraphs in Africa.The airline spokesman Michael Okwiri from Kenya airlines issued the statement.
Will follow up with more news soon

cammron
5th May 2007, 08:19
Still no news, Sky News reprorted that a distress signal was received...

Very_Low_and_Fast
5th May 2007, 08:19
CHC’s Twin Otter is flying around Douala looking for any signs of crash right now (don’t know if Cameroon official search and rescue – Cameroon Air Force is involved at all).

No, Douala and Cameroon have no radar facilities.

cammron
5th May 2007, 08:26
Word is that the worst is to be expected.The aircraft are basicaly brand new (6 months old) .Apparantly they took off in torrential rain.Yes they are searching not far from Doula Airport at the moment which indicates they know its gone down.Sad very sad..

MarcJF
5th May 2007, 08:26
Sky is now reporting that the plane has crashed

Colonel Klink
5th May 2007, 08:33
Very sad about the 737 if in fact the latest news is correct. As an airline, they seems to project a professional image with new aircraft and well trained crews. A sad day indeed.

rmac
5th May 2007, 08:35
Last time I looked, I didnt know the CAF had anything that could fly. Ironic that the "safe" option out of Douala should go down while Cameroon Airlines continue to stagger through the sky being avoided by anyone with a choice.

What was the weather like ? suggestions in Indonesia last year were that the Adam Air may have penetrated a heavy CB, and Indonesia is like most parts of Africa, nothing but the onboard radar (which could be u/s) to help get around the nastier tropical weather.

cammron
5th May 2007, 08:39
Cameroon State Radio reporting that it went down near Niete Southern Cameroon.May God have mercy as Africa has gone dark today.My heart goes out to all those aboard and their families,This is not on!

Very_Low_and_Fast
5th May 2007, 08:41
Plane Carrying 115 People Crashes
Updated: 09:33, Saturday May 05, 2007

A passenger jet carrying 115 people has crashed in Cameroon.
Kenya Airways lost contact with the plane shortly after takeoff and a search operation was launched.

A Kenya Airways jet crashed in 2000 killing 169 peopleAir traffic controllers picked up a distress signal from the aircraft before contact was lost.

The flight originally began in Ivory Coast but stopped in Douala - Cameroon's largest city - to pick up more passengers en route to the Kenyan capital Nairobi.

The 737-800 was carrying 106 passengers, eight crew members and a flight engineer.

The plane is the latest generation of 737 capable of carrying 189 passengers and has long-range capability.

rmac
5th May 2007, 08:41
Cammron,

Was just posting while you stuck the weather on. Not surprise, once, as pax, had to endure 3 approaches in nasty torrential rain to get in to Yaounde with Kenyan. On balance they probably did a good job of it, and did not have too many options, perhaps weather in Doula was just as bad and not worth the diversion.

But that was arrival with limited fuel, not departure

cammron
5th May 2007, 08:49
According to some of the sources which must still be confirmed they were experiencing extremely heavy rain at time of departure and over the area.Is it possible that a double flame out occured?The experts may comment but the cause is still unknown.

AndrewOO
5th May 2007, 09:05
Our concern as aviation professionals at the moment is for the crew, and their family, it is their bird. The passengers are responsibility of the insurance company, and the company public relations. Every-body who flies in an aircraft must take the responsibility to fly, safely, and must account for these at least mentally. Aviation companies make it their responsibility that a flight is flown safely, but according to Murphy laws, anything that can happen, will happen at some point in time, and this is one such point. Once these have been accounted for then our next concern is what happened, and if it can be avoided/minimized for other similar situations in the future. Aviation incidences are dramatic, but please let us not dramatize this, as improper dramatization affects the emotions of people, flight crew, passengers, and family, increasing the chances of such an incident happening again in the future, affecting positive public opinion of the aviation industry. Air transport is here to stay, our concern is the minimize chances of incidents not increase them.

Andrew O. Ojwang(Nairobi)
Licensed Graduate Engineer.
Aeroranger.
ATPL Wanna-be.

Tachi
5th May 2007, 09:09
What a sad Day for Not just us African Aviators but for the whole aviation fratenity.Kenya Was carrying the flag for Africa. Oh Dear Lord have mercy on us. God Bless.

cammron
5th May 2007, 09:21
A crash fatal or non fatal is an extremely dramatic event.Everyone wants to know what happened and why.No one wants it to happen to them and if in our minds the cause is a rare event we rest easier.Forums and posts educate us and assist and attest any fear and bode a sense of expression of emotions and feelings.We all have a passion for aviation and the world it envelopes and experience it daily in our lives which ever way-be it technical ,theoretical or practical.We are curious by nature and this will never change.That is what brings improvements and advancement to mankind.We must not stifle this .

green granite
5th May 2007, 09:27
Our concern as aviation professionals at the moment is for the crew, and their family, it is their bird. The passengers are responsibility of the insurance company, and the company public relations.

What a totally arrogant statement, the safety of the passengers and crew are the responsibility of the captain, be it of an aircraft or a ship. :ugh:

Very_Low_and_Fast
5th May 2007, 09:27
Normal flight path from Douala to Nairobi should have taken them over Yaoundé. Somebody reported that the crash site is south of Kribi, quite off-track…

RoyHudd
5th May 2007, 09:36
Safest option is to travel by land in Africa. No apologies, excepting SAA for the moment, African airlines are downright dangerous, ditto African airspace, ditto African weather. Bad combination. Stats support it, as does the latest crash news.

cammron
5th May 2007, 09:43
NATIONALITY
NUMBER

CAMEROON
34

INDIA
15

SOUTH AFRICA
7

CHINA
6

IVORY COAST
6

NIGERIA
6

BRITAIN
5

NIGER
3

CAR
2

DRC
2

SWISS
1

MALI
1

TOGO
1

SWEDEN
1

GHANA
1

COMOROS
1

MAURITIUS
1

SENEGAL
1

CONGO
1

EGYPT
1

TANZANIA
1

US
1

BURKINA FASO
1

KENYA
9
CREW

UNIDENTIFIED
6

Total
114

Copied from another source.It affects so many countries,what a shame..We must find answers AFRICA

Very_Low_and_Fast
5th May 2007, 09:45
Roy, you have obviously not driven on an African road. If you have and be alive to tell you wouldn’t have said so. There are dangers in Africa but the road is NOT safe option.

There are numerous safe airlines in Africa (Ethiopian is an example, only one crash due to hijack – Comoros).

rmac
5th May 2007, 10:09
Have to agree with VL&F, a drive on the highway from Douala to Yaounde is IMHO considerably riskier than a short flight on the dreaded Cameroon Airlines.

CAMEROON AIRLINES PAX PRE TAKE OFF CHECKLIST.
IPOD ........up LOUD !,
HIPFLASK.......OPEN
GOOD BOOK......BURY HEAD INSIDE
IMAGINATION.......MUTED

Works for some other beauties too, like Bellevue, ScibeZaire(as they used to be), Ghana (unfortunately these days) etc

However, over the years have in the main been positively impressed, and prefer to fly East-West on Kenyan and Ethiopian

helldog
5th May 2007, 10:14
Very sad day. My heart goes out to all the family members. From someone who lost a family member recently I know how sick this makes you.
I used to fly into Douala everyday almost. I notice that someone said it crashed south of Kribi thats a fair way south although I guess a jet trying to get around a storm could get there in maybe 10-15 min. This is totaly possible, as was stated there is no radar there. So when you request a diversion they just give it to you and then they dont have a means to follow you, except maybe to ask to report back on track. There is very little traffic to the south east of Douala, the crew would have know this and knew they would be safe to manouver in the area, please note that this is just a thought as to why they MAY have been off track.
Anyway all we can hope now is that someone may have survived, remember Japan Airlines 747 on little girl made it. Our thoughts should be with the families right now because they will all be praying that their loved one is the miracle surrvivor in this one.:(

alexmcfire
5th May 2007, 10:36
The supposed crash site, http://www.tageo.com/index-e-cm-v-00-d-m4452786.htm

kingair9
5th May 2007, 11:25
By the way - plane supposed to be 737-8AL 5Y-KYA, 6 months old.

robbreid
5th May 2007, 11:46
http://www.airfleets.net/show/?pic=66957 Kenya Airways Boeing 737NG-8AL, s/n 35069, first flew 9th, October 2006 5Y-KYA - aircraft involved in crash.

alexmcfire
5th May 2007, 13:15
CNN now claim a different crash site, Lolodorf rather than Niete..:confused:

coopervane
5th May 2007, 14:36
In never fails to amaze me after an incident/accident such as this how so many people start to dream up all sorts of ideas and versions of what they think went wrong.

What you should always remember is that people may or may not have lost their lives here and until more concrete news about what has actually occured, then maybe the so called wise after the event brigade should have the patience to see what the other speculators of the truth (the media) have uncovered or indeed have actually found out.

Aviation is all about facts. It is good to post genuine information but pointing the finger of blame before the aircraft has even been found goes far beyond good reporting.

Perhaps comment on the accident report when the professionals have compiled it, then as always have your say. Until then comment on what you know rather than what you think you know. Remember lots of non aviation people read this too.

Coop & Bear

flyoneday
5th May 2007, 14:56
i work as a crew for Kenya Airways-The Pride Of Africa!!!!
We are here praying that the pax n crew on board are safe n all u can say is "ROADS ARE SAFER"? i suppose you are in the wrong place.
If u cant help us grief, get the heck out!
Accidents can happen to any airline!

We are praying for some good news.
For those who have a heart,we thank you.

~
flyoneday :ok:

punchus
5th May 2007, 15:43
Our concern as aviation professionals at the moment is for the crew, and their family, it is their bird. The passengers are responsibility of the insurance company, and the company public relations. Every-body who flies in an aircraft must take the responsibility to fly, safely, and must account for these at least mentally.
Andrew OO The above quote is nothing short of a scandalous statement. Arrogant and ignorant. Maybe it's just as well you are an ATPL wannabe.

fatboy slim
5th May 2007, 16:08
Do METAR or TAF reporting exist at the departure airport? Does anyone have access to the archives for these who could post?

MattYYC
5th May 2007, 16:15
FKKD 051600Z 26005KT 9999 SCT016 FEW020CB BKN300 29/25 Q1008 NOSIG
FKKD 051500Z 27004KT 9999 BKN016 FEW020CB BKN120 30/25 Q1008 NOSIG
FKKD 051400Z 26005KT 9999 BKN016 FEW020CB BKN120 31/25 Q1009 NOSIG
FKKD 051300Z 27004KT 9999 BKN016 FEW020CB BKN120 30/25 Q1010 NOSIG
FKKD 051200Z 33005KT 9999 BKN016 FEW020CB BKN120 30/25 Q1011 NOSIG
FKKD 051100Z 34004KT 9999 BKN016 FEW020CB BKN120 29/24 Q1012 NOSIG
FKKD 051000Z 00000KT 9999 BKN016 FEW020CB BKN120 28/24 Q1012 NOSIG
FKKD 050900Z 00000KT 9999 BKN016 FEW020CB BKN120 27/24 Q1012 NOSIG
FKKD 050800Z 00000KT 9999 SCT016 FEW020CB BKN120 26/25 Q1012 RETS NOSIG
FKKD 050700Z 00000KT 9999 TS BKN015 FEW016CB BKN120 25/24 Q1011 NOSIG
FKKD 050600Z 00000KT 9999 TS BKN013 FEW016CB BKN120 24/24 Q1010 NOSIG
FKKD 050500Z 15003KT 9999 TS BKN013 FEW020CB BKN120 24/24 Q1010 NOSIG
FKKD 050400Z 00000KT 9999 TS BKN013 FEW020CB BKN120 24/24 Q1010 NOSIG
FKKD 050300Z 00000KT 9999 TS BKN013 SCT020CB OVC120 24/24 Q1009 NOSIG
FKKD 050200Z 00000KT 9999 TS BKN013 SCT020CB BKN120 24/24 Q1009 NOSIG
FKKD NIL
FKKD NIL
FKKD NIL
FKKD NIL
FKKD NIL
FKKD NIL
FKKD NIL
FKKD NIL
FKKD NIL

Fat Reggie
5th May 2007, 16:16
Punchus....I think there is a "translation" problem here. Surely He cannot mean what it appears.:ooh:

Nov71
5th May 2007, 16:17
Nicely put, Punchus
We all hope for the best, but fear the worst.

Losses due to mechanical failure/weather are accidents, poor maintenance or pressure to fly come what may is negligence, true accidents rarely happen!

Without pax or freight there would be no civil aviation industry. Airlines should have a duty of care to their employees and customers if they want to remain in business.

This forum is Rumours & news. Speculation is unavoidable and often ill-informed ('drunken' pilots) but can lead to changes in attitude, months before the final accident report is published. Accident investigations start with a theory/opinion which is then tested by facts & evidence. Even then the conclusion could be wrong (pilot error)

Severe weather on departure appears to be the main cause in this case,
the question is was take-off justified in the prevailing Wx conditions?

hetfield
5th May 2007, 16:22
Severe weather on departure appears to be the main cause in this case,

Severe weather?

If the report above is valid for actual departure time, can't see any SEVERE WEATHER.

regards

Fat Reggie
5th May 2007, 16:23
Does ATC practice "weather hold" proceedures, when appropriate, in Africa?

ettore
5th May 2007, 16:28
Why don't we put this thread on hold? It will take days to get reliable information and months, if not years, for an investigation report. As a matter of respect for those banging for their loved ones, stop jumping around the wreck.

Fat Reggie
5th May 2007, 16:34
YEARS?!

WTF?....That is unacceptable.

onetrack
5th May 2007, 16:43
An unnamed Kenya CAA official has been reported as stating "the plane has crashed" ..
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21680147-2,00.html
SA news sources have stated that witnesses near Lolodorf have reported hearing "a loud explosion" ..
The scenario doesn't look good .. heavily timbered country is reported where the plane is reputed to have gone down .. thus making it harder to find wreckage, and more difficult for possible survivors. God speed the searchers.
I can't imagine that any top-class rescue teams are ready to roll .. or that quality treatment facilities are nearby, either .. :(

ibelieveicanfly
5th May 2007, 17:03
According METAR brought by MattYYC in the previous page it seems that wind was calm or almost calm and it surprises me if it is in association with TS and CB????

I Just Drive
5th May 2007, 17:27
I flew on a KQ 737-800 earlier this year and was nothing but impressed from start to finish. Im sure those crews work as hard as any in the world with some monster weather amongst other challenges. My sincere condolences but its also not too late for survivors.

Capt. Queeg
5th May 2007, 17:56
Wherever it is, it is no longer in the air.

bomarc
5th May 2007, 17:58
regarding weather:

it does seem that a thunder storm was present...perhaps somewhat obscured by other clouds...hopefully wx radar was working properly.

while waiting for facts, thoughtful speculation is not out of line. it may make someone else think and avoid another accident.

flight engineer? perhaps not in our sense, but does this mean recent mechanical work?

M.Mouse
5th May 2007, 18:03
Accident investigations start with a theory/opinion which is then tested by facts & evidence.

What utter nonsense.

Why do so many ignorant, uninformed and ultimately pointless posts always appear when an accident happens?

Do people feel the need to get their contribution in irrespective of whether they have anything constructive to say?

A330AV8R
5th May 2007, 18:07
Condolences to all the crew and passengers family members for this untimely accident . . ..
an A330 Skipper

Beaver diver
5th May 2007, 18:37
Hard to say, but It may have been a mechanical issue. You don't go wrong on 737NG so easily.... Either flight crew negligence, bomb on board or maintenance issue. I wish we would know more details about Mayday call...RIP to all involved in the accident

threemiles
5th May 2007, 18:55
FKKD 050200Z 00000KT 9999 TS BKN013 SCT020CB BKN120 24/24 Q1009 NOSIG

This is kindo of a standard weather for FKKD that will be found 90% of the time. At 12000 is the cloud layer associated with Mt Cameroon. However, the departure was around midnight LT, which is 2300 Z and there is no SA available for that time (which is not unusual either)

5Y-NOT
5th May 2007, 19:01
Just to clarify Bomarc's query on the flight engineer, most KQ continental routes carry an engineer to evaluate any snags at out-stations, assist / monitor fuelling, monitor ground operations etc.
At this point we have absolutely no concrete information, and while we are all anxious to find out the cause of this tragedy at the moment it is all speculation and rumour. While i do think it's important we discuss this, I'm hoping we can keep it to constructive speculation and rumour.
Meanwhile we would like to focus our thoughts and prayers on the families and friends of our colleagues, and those of the 106 passengers.

5Y

bomarc
5th May 2007, 19:40
5Ynot

thank you for clarifying flight engineer in this case...I thought it might be sort of a mechanic with the plane and not like the FE we might have seen once in the 727 for example.


one report indicates that the last call was shortly after takeoff...and of all the discussed thoughts, wx would seem to be one worthy avenue of investigation...CFIT too perhaps complicated by night.

5Y-NOT
5th May 2007, 20:02
No prob. They're indispensable on those routes.
If I remember rightly douala tower passes you to douala control, check in with them, next call NLY, yaounde. Don't know for sure what what calls they actually made. I would speculate the 'last call' as reported was the handover. Just don't know. Just for the record, the crew would have been fresh, having joined in douala.
We're just very anxious they find the aircraft soon. CNN reporting air search suspended due weather.

Fox3snapshot
5th May 2007, 20:14
Intresting that some speculation in reports that a ditress call had in fact gone out, this quote in the AP though...

'Kenya Airways CEO Titus Naikuni held back on confirming the crash "until we see the plane — until then, it's missing," he said.

He said the distress call was issued automatically — "from a machine, not a pilot" — but said a crash is not the only reason a plane issues an automatic distress signal.'

I conclude from this that it would be an ELT or Transponder (limited radar coverage so less likely) ???

Regardless cannot be optimistic about the outcome.

God Bless family and friends.

bomarc
5th May 2007, 20:50
SOME clarifications:

Airline officials said they lost contact with the Nairobi-bound Boeing 737-800 only 11 minutes after its midnight takeoff from Douala, Cameroon.

Cameroon aviation officials said they received a distress call from the plane several hours after the crash, but Kenya Airways officials said the signal appeared to be an automated beacon relayed by the plane's computers, not the pilot.

Officials did not speculate on the cause of the crash, but some suggested that weather may have been a factor.

from the LA times.

I too believe the last transmission was a handoff...would like to know what was said, perhaps a request to deviate around wx, or at least an advisory that deviation was in progress.

Billy Whiz
5th May 2007, 21:00
This is the official statement from Kenya Airways:

PRESS STATEMENT.
Released at 1900hrs

Flight KQ 507 operated by a 737-800 aircraft which departed from Douala at 00:05 local time and was due to arrive in Nairobi at 06:15 but has not arrived.

The last message from the aircraft was received by the control tower in Douala immediately after take off. There were 105 passengers and 9 crew members on board. The nationalities of the people on board are as shown on the attached list. The nationality of 2 passengers is yet to be confirmed. We have now confirmed the nationality of 1 of the 3 unidentified passengers as Mauritanian.

Kenya Airways have opened a crisis management centre in Embakasi to monitor the situation and information is being disseminated on a regular basis.

An international passenger information centre has been opened in South Africa where all questions can be addressed. The public enquiry number is +27 11 2071100.

A local passenger information centre has been opened at the Intercontinental Hotel where all questions can be addressed. The public enquiry numbers are +254-20-3200353, +254-20-3200354, +254-20-3274349.

A team from Nairobi comprising Kenya Airways and appropriate Kenya Government authorities is being assembled and will leave for Douala later today.

Unless any pertinent information comes up in the course of the evening, the next press briefing is scheduled to be held at Panari Hotel on Sunday 6th May 2007 at 0900hrs.

A brief update on the situation in Douala:

There was a brief disturbance at Douala Airport in the morning, but the situation is now calm.

A distress signal was picked up on the West Coast of Africa and a search and rescue mission, initiated by the Cameroonian authorities, was initiated this morning. The search location was 100km South West of Yaoundé. The search aircraft flew over the zone extensively at low altitude but did not locate the missing aircraft. The Kenya Airways country manager in Cameroon was part of the search team.

A coordination centre has been set up where most of the Cameroonian Government authorities including police, state police, Air Force, Cameroon Civil Aviation Authorities, ASECNA, the Army, National Intelligence Agency and Kenya Airways team are present.

A helicopter has taken off to comb the area from Eseka to Ebolowa south east of Douala. The area being searched is very dense equatorial forest and there is heavy rainfall reported which is affecting the search exercise.
Our offices in Douala and Yaoundé continue to remain open for any enquiries.

Nardi Riviera
5th May 2007, 21:29
Reading this thread, I get a surrealistic feeling of travelling backwards in time.

The aircraft itself may be anno 2007, but the environment in which it operates seems to be anno 1920’ies.

Members of this forum fly in Africa. Then strange that we here so far have only received undechiffreable messages from that end. Different worlds?

visibility3miles
5th May 2007, 21:39
The BBC now says that the search has been called off until daybreak.


Last Updated: Saturday, 5 May 2007, 19:39 GMT 20:39 UK

"The search location has now been centred around 100kms (62 miles) south-west of [Cameroon's capital] Yaounde," Kenyan Airways chief executive Titus Naikuni told reporters.

He said the extensive search of the heavily-wooded area by low-flying aircraft had found nothing.

A BBC correspondent in Lolodorf said the situation there was chaotic, and that heavy rains had prevented a ground search from taking place.

"They (officials) are not very certain where the crash site is. There's real confusion here," Randy Joe Sa'ah told the BBC's Focus on Africa programme.

Later on Saturday, Cameroon's authorities said the operation had been called off until daybreak.

lomapaseo
5th May 2007, 23:32
Reminds me of the situation in Brazil about the same time frame after the GOL went missing.

Anybody notice an Embarer with a missing winglet?

Scurvy.D.Dog
6th May 2007, 01:06
Anybody notice an Embarer with a missing winglet?.. that is appallingly bad taste lomapaseo := :(

flyhardmo
6th May 2007, 01:15
I used to fly out of douala a while back and that wx report is pretty basic. The crash site of niete was also very weird as it lies 40nm south of FKKD ( there is an airstrip there) and that is way off track. I understand the difficulty in locating the aircraft as that forest is dense, actually until you see it you have no idea how thick it really is, however the terrain out to the east of doulala is quite flat.
KQ is one of the better airlines in africa maintenance and fleet wise and to prang due to a thunderstorm seems highly unlikely especially with a well equipped aircraft, but only the investigation will give us a true account of the events.
My condolences to all involved :(

Capt Chambo
6th May 2007, 04:46
A link to Kenya's Sunday Nation newspaper. (It may require you to register, but was free IIRC)

http://www.nationmedia.com/dailynation/

Pole sana.

AN2 Driver
6th May 2007, 09:47
So do I get this right? The aircraft last communicated with the tower 11 minutes after departure, thereafter nothing. And a few hours later, an ELT signal is received somewhere in Soutwestern Cameroon?

Obviously, if an ELT goes off when an airplane is missing, you'd look there first. Only, ELT's do go off all the time, 90% or more of alerts are false alerts. I wonder if they are looking in the right place, after all, the location is far off. Or do the airliners ELT's send out an identification? The ones I know basically transmit only a homing signal on 121.5 and 400 mhz for the satellites.

Kind of reminds me of the search efforts in Indonesia not too long ago, where such signals were also reported totally in the wrong place.

Best regards
AN2 Driver

amos2
6th May 2007, 10:03
So, this was a prang caused by Murphys Law?...It's good to know that!

alexmcfire
6th May 2007, 10:16
Add to the list of missing passengers is one Mauretanian citizen, the remaining
5 still unknown.
Name of the crew and some of the passengers can be found here http://www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?articleid=1143968249.

Very_Low_and_Fast
6th May 2007, 10:46
Matt,

Wx you have given us is from 050200Z. Plane took off around midnight (042300Z).


A lot of lightning reported in the area.

alexmcfire
6th May 2007, 11:06
Claims have been made that Cameroon state radio has reported that the wreckage has been found, no news on the people onboard....:confused:

bobusse
6th May 2007, 11:30
Medias start saying plane found at Awanda,near Mvengué,SW of Yaoundé,yet to be confirmed.

Fat Reggie
6th May 2007, 11:49
Man, they haven't even found the crash site yet? what about the Sat Emergency beacon?

Very_Low_and_Fast
6th May 2007, 12:30
Found, not found…

First Cameroonian State Radio reported that the crash site has been found and now they say it has not been found…


Yaounde - Cameroon's state radio said on Sunday it did not have sufficient evidence to confirm its earlier report that a missing Kenya Airways plane with 114 people aboard had been found in southern Cameroon.

"Earlier we broadcast a report that the plane had been found at Awanda, but for the time being we do not have sufficient evidence to confirm, to be completely sure, that the plane has been found," the radio station said. - Reuters

denis1960
6th May 2007, 12:43
I thought that the new generation ELT (provided it transmitted!) would send on 406MHz to a satellite that would relay to a center (in Italy for Kenya?) and the center would in turn warn Rescue Party (In Kenya, and in Cameroon?) of beacon, ac reg. number and position. Not in this case?

bomarc
6th May 2007, 13:13
imagine if the elt was from another plane, perhaps the winglet remark is prophetic.

just for imagination,

Desk Jockey
6th May 2007, 13:26
Quite a few ELT types as I understand it.
Automatic/Fixed
Automatic /Portable
Survival/Portable
Survival.
Personal

Most now give GPS position but the most basic don't. Those dedicated to a particular aircraft normally registered to it by serial No. so the aircraft is identified by it's ELT's serial No. In practice there have been issues. In my company in the early days of fitment it wasn't unknown to get a phone call to let us know that one had been activated in error but unable to identify which. This was suspected to be caused by water ingress. The ELTs (helicopter bait) were moved to a drier location.

Hope you never have to use yours!

See you on the ground.

130.382
6th May 2007, 13:29
ELT 406 are linked to the serial number of the aircraft. B737-800 should be equiped with ELT 406.

Winglet???? Most aircraft equiped with these are safe to fly with one winglet missing. Will even be in the MEL. Normally Cat A.

MattYYC
6th May 2007, 13:33
Wx you have given us is from 050200Z. Plane took off around midnight (042300Z).

Apparently they do not report wx overnight, hence no 2300z METAR

Sounds like the crash site is over 200km from FKKD though so this wx is pretty much irrelevant now.

RiverCity
6th May 2007, 14:23
130.382 --
Winglet???? Most aircraft equiped with these are safe to fly with one winglet missing. I think he was referring to the South American incident where an Embrarer's winglet snared a larger commercial jet and brought it down.

AndrewOO
6th May 2007, 14:38
ELT(EPIRBs)Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons),

The COSPAS-SARSAT, is a joint international satellite search, and rescue system established in Canada, France, the former USSR, and the USA, to locate emergency radio beacons transmitting on 121.5Mhz, and 406Mhz(Within a given bandwidth). The US satellites in this system not only receive on 121.5, and 406, but on the aviation military frequency 243Mhz. By International regulation certain classes of passenger vessels, aircraft included must have them on-board, and functioning before leaving the port(Airport included). These give out a unique digitally encoded signal, which the satellites then use to triangulate location, which is fed automatically to international aviation, military, and marine search , and rescue stations for action. There are procedures for technicians to follow for false triggering, and so on. EPIRBs are built to stand the effects of weather, and catastrophic crashes, and must be able to transmit for a given period on batteries, certain EPIRBs can only be carried, and activated by a licensed radio technician, after justification, others are activated automatically based on certain conditions, and hence there are three classes A, B, and C.

A call to an US coast guard station, or other such facility on confirmation of a missing aircraft would have initiated an immediate response, after confirmation on the Russian side, and US side.

Mr. Andrew O. Ojwang(Nairobi)

Backoffice
6th May 2007, 16:50
A question for those in the military...
Would a magnetic anomaly detector, i.e. one of those things you hunt subs with on Nimrods, P3s S3s etc detect a large metal mass, like a 2 tonne jet engine in the jungle ?

AndrewOO
6th May 2007, 16:59
You can find an earth surface anomaly using the same satellite techniques used to find oil, and mineral deposits, but some-one must have surveyed the area by satellite prior to this incident. The same technology is used by space probes to investigate the planets in our solar system.

Mr. Andrew O. Ojwang(Nairobi).

I Just Drive
6th May 2007, 18:15
I am amazed its not found yet. I thought we lived in an age where sats could read number plates. There could be survivors with the wreckage. If OBL was on the plane they would have found it by now.

Capt. Manuvar
6th May 2007, 18:21
Reuters are reporting that the wreckage has been found but there are no other details.

fox niner
6th May 2007, 19:28
The wreckage is in the mangroves near the airport of Douala.

Just in:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6630953.stm

11Fan
6th May 2007, 19:34
From AP today:

Among the passengers of the Boeing 737-800 was a Nairobi-based Associated Press correspondent, Anthony Mitchell, one of five Britons on a passenger list released by the airline. Mitchell had been on assignment in the region.



From the Committee to Protect Journalists website (2006)

New York, January 23, 2006—The Committee to Protect Journalists is outraged at the Ethiopian government's weekend expulsion of The Associated Press correspondent in the country. Anthony Mitchell, who reported news on Friday of renewed clashes between police and protesters in the capital, Addis Ababa, left on Sunday after government officials gave him 24 hours to depart.

"Anthony Mitchell is a respected and experienced reporter, and he should not be expelled for doing his job," said CPJ Executive Director Ann Cooper. "The Ethiopian government, which has imprisoned 16 journalists since November, is demonstrating yet again that it is bent on silencing independent reporting.

11Fan
6th May 2007, 19:39
Links to both stories, for more detail.

Remember, the CPJ article is over a year old.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070506/ap_on_re_af/cameroon_plane_crash

http://www.cpj.org/news/2006/africa/ethiopia23jan06na.html

Very_Low_and_Fast
6th May 2007, 21:32
Everything is a speculation at this early stage and PPRUNE being just a rumour network, since “aircraft was airborne, according to some reports, for 11 minutes and crash site, according to the latest news, is only 6 miles away” is it possible that a “massive lightning strike” blew all lights, radios and EFIS out and the crew was trying to come back to land in total darkness, no radio or Nav and IMC?
Could have a lightning strike affected ELT too?

AN2 Driver
6th May 2007, 21:44
Where do these 6 NM come from now? BBC sais 12 SM south, which would place the aircraft not under the SID direction Yaounde but rather under the DME Arc for the arrival. IF the 12 SM and the direction South were correct, I do wonder if they for some reason were on the DME arc used in the arrival procedure when what happened did happen?

Edit, YAHOO (link above) claims 12 Miles southeast, along the flight path...

Also, is it confirmed that the last contact was the hand off call? That one would occurr around FL60, and it should take longer than 12 Miles to get that high?

Very_Low_and_Fast
6th May 2007, 21:55
You are obviously AN2 driver. As far as any modern jet is concerned, it climbs at 2000 f/m and it should reach FL60 as you said (normally 50 in Douala when you contact Control) in 3 or so minutes. With 737 climb speed that would have happened around 12 NM?

AN2 Driver
6th May 2007, 22:08
LOL, ok, you got me there :) Used to be on Jets years and years ago but my math seems off at this time of the day :hmm:

So the last call would then have just about occurred at the distance where they did find the plane now?

Is the location of the crash site now confirmed?

M.Mouse
6th May 2007, 22:15
Everything is a speculation at this early stage and PPRUNE being just a rumour network, since “aircraft was airborne, according to some reports, for 11 minutes and crash site, according to the latest news, is only 6 miles away” is it possible that a “massive lightning strike” blew all lights, radios and EFIS out and the crew was trying to come back to land in total darkness, no radio or Nav and IMC?
Could have a lightning strike affected ELT too?

Should we perhaps start an award for the most inane drivel made in one post.

Clarence Oveur
6th May 2007, 22:30
Perhaps this forum should be renamed "Inane drivel and such".

There seems to be an never-ending supply of people who are determined to make themselves look like idiots, but apparently love to see their name in print.

The Professional contributors are sadly seriously outnumbered.

Rainboe
6th May 2007, 22:33
Oh it's painful isn't it? Daft idiotic imaginations and speculation running riot, people talking about themselves and how hard their ATPL training is....this thread has really brought them all out of the woodwork! All human life is here. I really think the site needs some hard pruning. People contributing inane drivel to this thread should bear in mind some things first. In any air accident, until details come out, don't speculate! It's amazing how the accident may actually caused by something completely different. And accidents are usually caused by a combination of factors, not just single things in isolation.

So please can we pack up with the inane speculation and guesses at this stage, and wait for details to come out? 5 pages of nothing but pleas to God and wishing for a happy outcome with survivors. Many find this offensive- we are waiting for news, not for people to beat their breasts in public about how upset they are!

Pinkman
6th May 2007, 22:37
You have to admit though, its now stunningly similar - on the face of it - to the KQ A310 accident in January 2000, in terms of phase of flight, time, distance from airport, lack of external visual references, etc. etc.

alexmcfire
6th May 2007, 22:44
Wreckage 20km south-east of the airport according to http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2007-05-07T014913Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_India-296951-4.xml

lomapaseo
6th May 2007, 22:57
How does the wreckage location correlate with radar coverage from ATC?

wes_wall
6th May 2007, 23:02
Perhaps I missed reading it, but does anyone know which runway was used for departure? Thanks.

Very_Low_and_Fast
6th May 2007, 23:03
There is no radar in Douala.

Capt Chambo
6th May 2007, 23:16
Would anyone who operates into and out of Douala be able to let us know whether RW30 is the preferential runway, what the normal routing is from Douala to Nairobi, assuming it is via the NLY and the UA610, is there an SID? and if so could you describe it for us.
Thanks in advance.
CC

bomarc
6th May 2007, 23:22
about drivel...


how many of you remember at least one crash was caused in a large jet plane by a lightning strike? i do.

while I don't think that is the case here, lightning could momentarily blind both pilots...check the USA AIM, it reminds you to turn up all the cockpit lights full bright to protect you. remember this crash was at night.

I can't really stand it when theories are dismissed as drivel.

I know of one EFIS type plane that lost EVERYTHING at night over water...the pilots did land safely.

does that mean it could never happen? just ask murphy about that!

Clarence Oveur
6th May 2007, 23:26
Drivel might cut the mustard on CNN, but around here it shouldn't.

But keep on speculating Jon.

DownIn3Green
6th May 2007, 23:52
Flyoneday,

Welcome to the "prune"...many people here are very insensitive...

Having flown extensively in Africa, including in and out of Douala whilst based there, (working a contract for SAFAIR on behalf of Cameroon Airlines) yes there are problems, but unless one has been there and is prepared to cope, then their opinion of things they know nothing about shouldn't be voiced on a thread such as this.

A new A/C, a well trained crew, and pure speculation...

My symapthy for the loss of your crewmember friends and the pax as well...

bomarc
7th May 2007, 00:05
it is so very sad that the drivel bashers are so in force...still didn't see anyone talk about the one crash that lightning caused many years ago.

Hansol
7th May 2007, 03:30
My pointless speculation for what its worth would be fuel quality out of Cameroon, if can be a bit iffey at times.

barit1
7th May 2007, 03:30
At this stage we can all speculate a dozen theories, but that's not the way an investigation works, is it?

I only hope enough hard data can be recovered to produce a probable cause that can be accepted by all the disciplines; and corrective action made available to prevent a repeat. We don't need another UA585, or US427, or AA587.

sleeper
7th May 2007, 07:00
"How does the wreckage location correlate with radar coverage from ATC?"

There is no radar in douala.

Mike Varney
7th May 2007, 07:26
Lived there in the mid 80's always a good airline then - been back a few times since - their service has got better and better - what a shame for one of the go ahead African Airlines....

AN2 Driver
7th May 2007, 07:52
Most charts for Douala can be found here:

http://www.ais-asecna.org/en/atlas/cameroun/douala.htm

Preferential Runway seems to be 12. According to the latest information on the crash site, it is right below the SID in direction Yaounde.

Best regards
AN2 Driver

Pinkman
7th May 2007, 08:01
I agree Mike. I lived there '94 / '95 and worked with and met many of the expatriate and local KQ guys - including Brian Davies of Speedwing Consulting - who were trying desperately hard to take it up the ladder. People bang on about SAA and yes, SAA is a success story in a way, but it had the whole South African economy behind it. Brian and his team were on their own had two really knackered 732s that were pulled out of desert storage, 3 F50s, and I think a couple of A300s. They managed - somehow - to build an infrastructure again from the ruins, change a culture and float the company on the Nairobi Stock exchange - the first airline in Africa to do so. The KLM/NW tie up marked that final step on the ladder. The Abidjan and now Douala accidents are just so damned frustrating. I just hope the Douala investigation is more definitive than Abidjan (CFIT into the Ocean) which, on reading leaves you with a vague feeling that there are several questions unanswered. At this stage, the parallels with this incident are tragically similar. Many posters have given their condolences and I'd add my sympathy to the guys at KQ who must be feeling really gutted. We're thinking of you.

PM

Balmy
7th May 2007, 09:50
I guess the part of all this that spurs us to speculate is that aircraft and all of aviation revolves around aircraft flying, and not crashing, and huge amounts of time, money, effort and training goes into ensuring (or trying to ensure) that they don't crash.

Any way you look at it a 6 month old aircraft operated by what appears to be a well run company crashing in the way this one appears to have is more than just a little unusual.

Looking at what we "appear' to know.
1. Apparently no mayday call (although early reports seemed to suggest there was one).....would be nice to get the straight info on this.
2. An event must have occurred therefore which was sudden and immediately (or nearly immediately) catastrophic, incapacitating the aircraft or crew or both.
3. Most events that we get from time to time in aviation would either have allowed a radio call or allowed the aircraft to continue flying, so it would have to have been that quick that there was no time to communicate, or removed the ability to communicate and incapacitated the aircraft (and/or crew) at the same time.

Not too many scenarios that I can think of that fit with that.

GearDown&Locked
7th May 2007, 09:58
Bad fuel quality comes to mind...

Balmy
7th May 2007, 10:41
GD&L.....could be....... but then you would expect some radio call reporting flameouts......so it would seem unlikely assuming there were no maydays.....which may or may not be so?????

Bridge Builder
7th May 2007, 10:44
Has bad fuel qual. causes an accident before, does anyone know?

CargoOne
7th May 2007, 11:16
Bridge Builder

I recall AN-124 crash in Irkutsk in 1997 shortly after takeoff, 3 engines out of 4 quit, and altough the reason was not 100% clear most people involved blame fuel or fuel system contamination (ice).

I also aware of a couple incidents involving one engine flameout due to bad fuel quality in Kabul, Afghanistan in recent years, which have not led to the crash.

helldog
7th May 2007, 11:26
Lets face it this thing could have been caused by any number of things and have one of millions of root causes. On the matter of drivel I think its a matter of opinion. Maybe lets cut the KQ workers here some slack, remember they are shocked and angry and have just lost a bunch of friends in one go. Its understandable that they might drivel on a bit. To the rest of us drivelers well we have no excuse:}

Not to speculate at all but out of Douala the groound crews there would always try to sneak things on to the plane. They would get paid by the sender, maybe a few bucks, to do it and their compadres at the other end would pick up the goods. Saves the sender paying the higher prices to the airline. Very well organised scam to all destinations in the area. I am sure they put 'extras' on KQ and other aircraft as well. Industrious little blighters.:=

Farty Flaps
7th May 2007, 11:32
Pinkman,

Lets hope that the vague unanswered questions dont surface in this investigation either. nuff said:ugh:

Bridge Builder
7th May 2007, 11:54
Thanks Cargo One.

Bridge Builder
7th May 2007, 12:07
Helldog - Are you thinking Valuejet here?

lomapaseo
7th May 2007, 12:30
The so called speculating drivel being pandered in the various aviation forums are really just check boxes in the trained investigators kit.
Most of these possibilities are easily assessed with a few facts in the earliest days following an accident. The facts come from the wreckage itself as well as interviews with the infrastructure (ATC, weather, grround maintenance, etc.) It's only after supporting facts are found that the investigation starts to dig deeper into the many speculative guesses on these discussion boards. In the great majority of these speculative "guesses" they are dismissed by the lack of supporting facts coupled with factual arguments against, in the earliest hours.
The real challenge is the laborious task of continuing to search for supporting or refuting facts against the remaining speculations on the list.
The real "drivel" and useless speculation ,in my mind, is when these message board discussions start generating phantom facts from hearsay, and opinions.
some things to keep in mind for most accidents (not just this latest one)
equipment failures in flight are typically announced to ATC before the radio is cut-off
One day at the accident site typically confirms or refutes mechanical causes, so listen and read carefully any debriefing from these qualified investigators, that might come in the first days (be wary of unqualified government officials)

bomarc
7th May 2007, 12:54
regarding fuel contamination:

I know of one incident in the USA in which a plane had contaminated fuel (airliner), on takeoff roll, just breaking ground after Vr, both engines quit. runway remaining was adequate for a quick landing. It could happen, but I don't think that is the case here.


if radio contact 11 minutes after takeoff was normal, the plane would likely be above 10,000 feet. even if all engines quit, the plane would glide long enough for another radio call.


a bomb in the cockpit, killing the pilots could account for a lack of further radio calls.

one must wonder about security procedures in africa.


however, my first feeling is wx.

helldog
7th May 2007, 13:23
Value Jet, was that the one with the O2 generators catching fire? I cant remember, but yeah something like that is possible if someone put something on board for collection in Nairobi without the knowledge of the airline. Its a shame though. I hope that they are able to determine the real cause so that the families of those killed can at least know why this happened.

OFBSLF
7th May 2007, 13:27
Value Jet, was that the one with the O2 generators catching fire?Yes, it was: http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/19/valujet.final/

cammron
7th May 2007, 13:27
Quote:
NAIROBI, May 7 - A member of the Kenyan delegation which visited the crash site of Kenya Airways flight 507 on Sunday night described the scene as horrifying and dashed any hopes of survivors.

He said the fuselage was submerged in a swamp, while pieces of the aircraft were strewn across a large area. He also said they could see a crater where the plane appears to have hit the ground on impact.

The sign of a crater seems to indicate severe impact.What do you think?

Bridge Builder
7th May 2007, 13:30
That's right. The O2 was not meant to be on the plane. It caught fire. However, with the Valuejet I beleive that the pilots were able to transmit a mayday. Still, I understand it all happened v. quickly.

kingair9
7th May 2007, 13:39
with the Valuejet I beleive that the pilots were able to transmit a mayday. Still, I understand it all happened v. quickly.

Not only one "mayday" but in fact multiple communications were made as at the beginning the crew attempted to bring the a/c back to MIA.

Bridge Builder
7th May 2007, 13:42
Interesting. So quite different to 507 where there appears to have been little / no communication at all.

Tofu Racing
7th May 2007, 13:51
As per AP:

Flight 507 had departed from Douala airport early Saturday, an hour late because of rain, with 105 passengers and nine crew members on board. The plane issued a distress call, but then lost contact with the radio tower between 11 and 13 minutes after takeoff, officials said.

No survivors, confirmed by Luc Ndjodo, a local government official.

All family members of those who were on board have my heartfelt sympathy for that tragic loss, whatever happened must have happened very fast, no matter was it wx or technical issue.

bubbers44
7th May 2007, 13:58
The last radio call from the flight was reported as immediately after takeoff. The distress call 11-13 minutes after takeoff must have been the ELT, not a radio call. The news never gets it right the first couple of days.

Frangible
7th May 2007, 14:09
OK, it's been found now, but for future ref, let us recall that the ELTs on airliners are only activated by contact with water (hence their correct name: Underwater Locator Beacons). This one may have been activated by the swamp water, if it ever was.

Yes, remarkable similarities to the Abidjan crash, but still probably unrelated. As I recall it, that plane had dinged its AOA vane in collision with a ground vehicle, giving a false stall warning on TO which had the crew fly it into the water (very dark night).

For those who hate speculation, remember that barely any African countries ever publish the full accident investigation reports, including the KQ at Abidjan. Unless there was a total power loss at the beginning of the Douala accident chain, it is the CVR-DFDR read-outs that will probably give the answers. That should take a week or so after the boxes are recovered and delivered to the NTSB.

GearDown&Locked
7th May 2007, 14:10
It's beggining to look like the Helios tragedy regarding loss of comms...

Frangible
7th May 2007, 14:12
How does it look like Helios? Cannot see the faintest resemblance.

GearDown&Locked
7th May 2007, 14:17
Last call on departure... no more R/T (known!) exchanges until the crash... no apparent good reason to make a good plane crash other than wx...

Rainboe
7th May 2007, 14:23
Look everyone, stop this daft (and voluminous) speculation! You're running through everything that could possibly bring a plane down.....on absolutely no information. Thius is a professional pilots forum. It's been made plain that visitors are welcome if input is relevant, but this is a complete takeover by excitable and uninformed amateurs! We are all waiting for news, but running through this ridiculous speculation:
Helios (that takes the biscuit)
O2 Generators
Fuel contamination
Weather...turbulence....lightning
Bombs smuggled aboard
Have we been through hijack as well?
Any other suggestions?

Please give it a rest if you know nothing. idle speculation achieves nothing, ESPECIALLY FROM PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT! We have 7 pages of drivel that could be condensed to one page of news. I have never seen a thread get hijacked by so many people with nothing constructive to say.

onetrack
7th May 2007, 14:28
Last call on departure... no more R/T (known!) exchanges until the crash... no apparent good reason to make a good plane crash other than wx... .. Or someone smuggling on a 20 lb propane bottle .. that then started leaking. This is Africa, remember - where what helldog suggested (illegal cargo via corruption), would be an all-too-common occurrence. Can't see where wx would make a perfectly good, near new plane, fall out of the sky without a single R/T re problems. Catastrophic failure caused by on-board explosion, or poor maintenance, must rate highly in this case. My condolences to all those who have lost loved ones and friends.

old,not bold
7th May 2007, 14:36
“massive lightning strike” blew all lights, radios and EFIS out and the crew was trying to come back to land in total darkness, no radio or Nav and IMC?
blame fuel or fuel system contamination (ice). bad fuel quality in Kabul, Afghanistan in recent years, which have not led to the crash. Not to speculate at all but out of Douala the groound crews there would always try to sneak things on to the plane.Helldog - Are you thinking Valuejet here?contaminated fuel (airliner), on takeoff roll, just breaking ground after Vr, both engines quit. runway remaining was adequate for a quick landing. It could happen, but I don't think that is the case here.Well, that's a relief. Difficult to investigate to make sure, was it?
bomb in the cockpit, killing the pilots could account for a lack of further radio callsO2 generators catching fire? Yes, remarkable similarities to the Abidjan crash, but still probably unrelated.It's beggining to look like the Helios tragedy regarding loss of commno apparent good reason to make a good plane crash other than wx...Well, I've got plenty more....snake in flight deck, tail fell off, engine fell off, suicide pact, chief hostie went doolally and shot pilots, take your pick, they're all equally likely until someone comes up with one single fact apart from the fact that the aircraft was lost fairly early in the flight.

It's disrespectful, very harmful (think of all those salivating journalists reading it as quoting "industry sources"), and this thread should close, or be confined to people who actually know how to differentiate fact from fiction.

GearDown&Locked
7th May 2007, 14:41
Hmm... I'm sorry if my daft suggestions have cause any offence; Besides I've never realised that I was posting on the actual official accident investigators forum, where you get the news fact in one post and than complete silence until the 2nd post comes up with the link to the official report...in 3 or 4 years time. So, close this thread now and reopen it when the report comes out. Pro pilot or not, you're not a part of the investigation team, and that includes you too Rainboe.


Btw, thanks for the biscuit. It sure is appreciated.

GD&L end of tx.

Rainboe
7th May 2007, 14:46
It's distressing, isn't it- complete hijack of the bulletin board. So much garbage now it is 7 pages of unreadable nonsense, everybody contributing any idle thought they may have. I like the snake one. Hadn't thought of the propane gas bottle one. All done on no data whatsoever.

Shall we wait for hard news, and the CVR and Data recorders to be recovered?

GD&L- I repeat, this is a forum intended mainly for Professional Pilots. It's been made clear that contributions are welcome if people have some sensible input that "Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots" may affect our jobs. This thread is complete hijack of the bulletin board by people idly speculating on no information. 7 pages of drivel.

Dream Land
7th May 2007, 14:55
OK, it's been found now, but for future ref, let us recall that the ELTs on airliners are only activated by contact with water :confused: , Oh really, not on our aircraft, I think you are speaking about the one you carry with you after ditching, the one installed in the aircraft will activate on sudden impact.

Danny
7th May 2007, 15:10
Rainboe... you are flogging a dead horse with our argument. I prefer to refer all the 'speculators' who have no actual basis for their 'speculations' to visit this thread: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=274296

After reading the first post, please feel free to come back and reconsider whatever it was you were going to post here. If you feel that your informed 'speculation' is really something that we airline pilots should be rewarded with then go ahead. However please do not come back on here with disappointed posts when you get flamed for what the majority of the rest of us consider to be uninformed waffle and amateur drivel.

I note that quite a few of the 'uninformed speculators' also happen to be some of the first to jump on the "let's slag the media" bandwagon when they come up with something that hasn't quite been researched as thoroughly as they think it should have been. :rolleyes:

I do note that some of the replies are really cringeworthy and do the poster no favours. So, once again, please read the following post before jumping in with an opinion that could be likely to cause embarrassment: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=274296

Frangible
7th May 2007, 15:31
Are you sure, DL?
I was only talking about the ICAO legal definition of how the black boxes must be designed for airliners. Only Underwater Locator Beacons are mentioned on the NTSB page about the black boxes and they are most definitely activated by water.
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/CVR_FDR.htm
The logic behind this is that if it hasn't sunk, you won't need an ELT to find it.
You didn't say what you fly, and maybe you have a g-force activated one too, but I suspect that's a rarity.

Very_Low_and_Fast
7th May 2007, 15:41
Would an observation from an eyewitness of the crash site help??

It appears to be high-speed, nose down (almost vertical) impact. Parts of the aircraft buried in the mangroves and hardly recognizable.

Dream Land
7th May 2007, 16:06
On our new A321's we have one of those little switches just above the captain, ARM, ON, OFF, looks like the same switch as in any GA aircraft. :confused:

threemiles
7th May 2007, 16:09
Can't see where wx would make a perfectly good, near new plane, fall out of the sky without a single R/T re problems.

Flash Airlines B737 - Sharm el Sheik - right after take-off - no R/T (albeit not wx)
Adam Air B737 - Indonesia - enroute - no R/T

Willie Everlearn
7th May 2007, 16:58
Frangible,
Just a minor detail, if I may?
ELTs on the B737-800 aren't just activated by water. They are also activated by a preset "g" value in case of impact.
Quote:
ARM - (guarded position) ELT transmits automatically when it reaches its preset G-Load limit.
There are occasions where aircraft have crashed in dense forest, jungle, swamps, underbrush, etc., where visibility of a charred wreck is hard to spot over the course of several days, even with slow moving helicopters and eagle-eyed SAR techs with binoculars.
...but I take your point.
Willie:ok:

ChristiaanJ
7th May 2007, 17:14
Minor detail...
But an ELT trying to transmit on 121.5 and 406 MHz from under several feet of swamp mud... is unlikely to be picked up either by a satellite or SAR aircraft.

Frangible
7th May 2007, 17:33
As I take your's, WE and DL.
Slight misunderstanding on my part.

Willie Everlearn
7th May 2007, 17:55
Gents, since it was questioned...

The Underwater Locator Beacon is a device fitted to aviation flight recorders such as the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder. ULBs are also sometimes required to be attached directly to an aircraft fuselage. When triggered by water immersion the ULB emits an ultrasonic pulse of 37.5 kHz at an interval of once per second. This signal can be heard and located by a variety of receivers. The beacon will operate for 30 days to a depth of 20000 feet (6 km).

Source: How Stuff Works

We're talking about ELT not ULT. Right?

Willie :ok:

rmac
7th May 2007, 17:55
Currently assisting customers in West Africa with their crisis response in respect to pax aboard. Friday night exfil via Nairobi to all points East and South on KQ is very popular with the expat community in Abidjan, Douala and elsewhere. Hence the high foreigner count on board.

Our (non-aviation) team in Douala, some of whom are permanently based there, report that weather at the time was "completely dogsh1t" had been for some time before, and was for some time afterwards. Its currently wet season and this is normal (except the note, that as for elsewhere, the weather, from a ground perspective, appears to grow more severe these days). The aviation weather reported elsewhere on this thread is about as reliable as any other piece of official information emanating from that part of the world, and probably needs taken with a grain of salt.

First hand reports we have received from those visiting the scene is of scattered small parts of aeroplane, not particularly recognisable, unless a larger part was completely submerged of course ? but apparently consistent with a fairly solid impact.

I know that there has been a lot of work done on wind shear and microbursts, particularly for arrivals, but what is the expert opinion on meeting the edge of a CB and a microburst, at an early stage of climb out, and given that Doula is a bit short on radar, (and if they did have it, it probably wouldn't work anyway), how much time for avoidance would you have at an early stage of flight using onboard radar ?

IHT is reporting double engine failure with a turnback, and not enough glide range, but would communications not be expected with the tower in that situation ?

On another note, probably unconnected, but worthy of consideration, another colleague travelled KQ from Nairobi to Accra on Friday ,(the service is Nairobi-Accra-Freetown I believe), on a new looking 737-??00, which shortly after on time-ish departure (scheduled for 1110) did a quick 180 and returned to Nairobi, pax were off loaded and re-boarded to depart over an hour or so later ( colleague is not sure if on the same airframe or not). My colleague is not aviation related enough to record the type other than 737, but schedules show that the Accra route is normally posted to run with a 737-700.

Related to scheduled aircraft, the Friday Abidjan/Douala to Nairobi flights are normally run with a 767-200/300, and are scheduled to depart Nairobi at 1245.

probably nothing more than a coincidence, but worth keeping an eye on all the same.

Belcra
7th May 2007, 17:56
Hi there,

A slight aside....

Can anybody tell me how it is that there are at least 3 unidentified passengers on flight? Surely in this day and age all airlines must know exactly who is on their plane and what countries they are from? I'm not remotely suggesting that this has anything to do with why the flight came down but I was surprised to see that in passenger lists there are still unknown passengers.

JJflyer
7th May 2007, 18:12
This age in Africa cousins, friends, who ever still walz on the aircraft with no ticket no nuttin. Sometimes corrupt officals or crews get paid cash to take people... Africa is a tough continent.

My symphaties the families and those that perished.

JJ

Willie Everlearn
7th May 2007, 18:19
Re-reading the METARs, it didn't look like dogsh1t to me.
:sad:
Willie

rmac
7th May 2007, 18:22
Confirming my point about the quality of information in that part of the world. Don't know what it looked like from the air, but I suspect not much different than from the ground.

old,not bold
7th May 2007, 18:22
Very_Low_and_Fast said:-
would an observation from an eyewitness of the crash site help?Yes it would.Thank you for the first fact on the thread.

Belcra said:

I was surprised to see that in passenger lists there are still unknown passengers.It's often remarkably difficult to get a 100% accurate list together, in a hurry at the departure airport, after an aircraft has departed, even in a modern airport with good communication systems and well-trained staff. It's even more difficult to match the list you've got to what you find at the site. I don't quite see how a passenger "in the list" is "unknown"; it seems a contradiction.

Kentons (morgue and identification experts) reckoned at one time that in their experience 2% on any flight were on false ID's, or travelling without the knowledge of a spouse/partner. But that's not quite the same as "unknown".

Hudson Bay
7th May 2007, 18:32
Anybody know the name of the Chief Pilot of the 737 fleet?

hedgehopper
7th May 2007, 18:39
Don't think anybody has mentioned "rudder hard over"!

RiverCity
7th May 2007, 19:00
As in AA587? Yes, it was mentioned but I can't find the post anywhere.

Just a spotter
7th May 2007, 19:21
Condolences to all those who lost friends and loved ones.

Having just read the reports of the flight it reminded me of this report ...

13 Apr 2005 - El Al 737-800 Auto Pilot Malfunction
(IsraelNN.com) El Al officials yesterday announced that a Boeing 737-800 with 120 passengers on board encountered a major auto-pilot malfunction shortly following takeoff from Russia. The incident occurred approximately 2.5 weeks ago.
Pilots switched over to autopilot during takeoff and shortly thereafter, at 3,000 feet, the plane began to take a dive, rapidly losing altitude. Pilots pinpointed the malfunction at 2,700 feet, and turned off the autopilot, making the decision not to turn around but to continue. The plane climbed to 35,000 feet and continued on its journey to Tel Aviv.


Anyone know how soon after take off the procedures for the airline would require the autopilot to be engaged? (Sorry if adding more "uninformed" speculation)

JAS

Nov71
7th May 2007, 22:38
Teletext reporting that Black Box(s) found and speculating about double engine failure / flameout and pilot poss attempting to glide back to airport also crash site 'suggests' 'near vertical' dive

Sounds like Mr Murphy linked up with Mr S*d on this one. Tragic

Let's hope we get some facts from BBs in a few days.

arcniz
7th May 2007, 23:36
Have not been able to confirm location of crash site, from several choices offered, but this movable map image (http://wikimapia.org/#y=3754634&x=9783325&z=10&l=0&m=h&v=2) puts one in the vicinity.

Bandwidth CAUTION: FULL SCREEN IMAGE

sidestick driver
7th May 2007, 23:45
Arcniz,
I have traced your map given onto Google Earth and it works out to be around 144km's from Doualo. Are you sure about your position from your scource? I understood that it was much closer to Doualo

arcniz
8th May 2007, 01:43
sidestick driver says:
I have traced your map given onto Google Earth and it works out to be around 144km's from Doualo. Are you sure about your position from your scource? I understood that it was much closer to Doualo

Reports as to the exact location are still confusing at present.

I previously posted the satpix view centered on the site to which your post refers. The link for that is: http://wikimapia.org/#y=2666997&x=10050001&z=14&l=0&m=h&v=2

On cross-checking, I realised the location first-posted is quite far south and not consistent with recent reports, so I deleted that and posted a new one (number 160, at the moment) which shows Douala and a 60-plus mile radius around it in the directions of interest. The link for THAT is: http://wikimapia.org/#y=3754634&x=9783325&z=10&l=0&m=h&v=2 .

Between the two views, the accident site is likely somewhere included. Please note that the map presentation which comes up when you select one of the links allows one to navigate by moving the map (left-click on map, hold down, push the map in whatever direction desired, then unclick). The map will also zoom in or out using the cross-like object in upper left of screen, with the fixpoint being at a crosshair visible near the center of the screen. (which is more Important for zooming in than for z-out.) With your side-stick skills, you should be able to master it in short order. Hope it proves useful.

If I am within reach of a network when higher-conficence information / data becomes available, I will post a corrected one-stop vector to the accident site. Won't hurt my feelings if someone else does so first, tho.

jet_noseover
8th May 2007, 02:25
Investigators combing through the wreckage Monday focused on the possibility the jet lost power in both engines during a storm and tried to glide back to the airport before plunging nose-first into the swamp.
........
After being delayed an hour by storms, the Nairobi-bound Boeing 737-800 sent a distress signal shortly after takeoff from Douala early Saturday, then lost contact 11 to 13 minutes later. It took searchers more than 40 hours to find the wreckage, most of it submerged in murky orange-brown water and concealed by a canopy of trees.
A coast guard officer, Capt. Francis Ekosso, said late Monday that one of the two flight recorders had been found, a development that could help investigators determine what happened to Flight 507. He did not know the device's condition or whether it was the data recorder or the cockpit voice recorder.
Officials said it was too early to tell what caused the crash, but investigators concentrated on the stormy weather as a possible contributor.
Experts were considering a theory the jet's two engines flamed out because of the weather and the craft did not have enough altitude to glide back to the airport, said an official close to the airline's investigation in Kenya's capital, Nairobi. He agreed to discuss the matter only if not quoted by name because he was not authorized to speak to the press.
More:
http://www.newspress.com/Top/Article/article.jsp?Section=WORLD&ID=565012435640386957

vapilot2004
8th May 2007, 03:16
News from Seattle (former home of Boeing):
Underlined area is my emphasis.

Kenya Airways crash raises many questions

Whatever happened on Kenya Airways Flight 507 that caused the new Boeing 737-800 to crash in an African jungle over the weekend could open a new chapter in jetliner accident investigations.

If the crash turns out to have been caused by mechanical failure, it would be the first involving several newer jetliner models from Boeing and Airbus that have exceptional safety records.

But the accident could also have been weather related, pilot error or even sabotage, an aviation expert said.

So far, there are only questions about why the plane went down shortly after taking off Saturday from Douala in the West African nation of Cameroon. It was headed for Nairobi. All 105 passengers and nine crewmembers were killed.

"At this point, it's a smoking-hole mystery," said John Nance of Tacoma, a former 737 pilot, author and aviation safety consultant for ABC news.

"We know we have lost one. We have no idea why."

He discounted press reports from the scene that the plane may have lost power in both engines while flying through a storm.

Whatever the cause turns out to be, this is hardly the kind of jetliner crash that for years has raised concerns about aviation safety in Africa. Typically, those accidents involved old jets operated by airlines with questionable maintenance and safety records.

Kenya Airways is highly regarded. It is experiencing phenomenal growth and has been moving aggressively to modernize its fleet. The airline was the first in sub-Sahara Africa to operate Boeing 777s and has ordered nine of Boeing's 787 Dreamliners.

And the 737-800 that crashed was not an aging plane. It was new, delivered by Boeing last October to Singapore Aircraft Leasing Enterprise, which leased it to Kenya Airways. The airline took delivery of two more 737-800s from the leasing company last year.

The jet that crashed had accumulated fewer than 500 cycles, according to Boeing. Each time a plane takes off and lands counts as one cycle.

This was only the second crash ever of one of Boeing's next-generation 737s in which passengers were killed. The first occurred in the heart of the Amazon jungle over Brazil in September when a 737-800 operated by Gol collided at 37,000 feet with a private jet. The private jet did not have cockpit equipment turned on that could have alerted the pilots they were on a collision course with the airliner.

All 155 people onboard the Gol 737 were killed. The private Legacy business jet, manufactured by Embraer, managed to land despite significant damage.

The Gol 737-800 was even newer than the Kenya Airways 737-800. It had been delivered to the Brazilian carrier by Boeing only a month before the mid-air collision.

Until the Gol accident, the only fatal accident involving a next-generation 737 occurred when a Southwest 737-700 was unable to stop after landing in a snowstorm at Chicago's Midway Airport. The plane went through a fence at the end of the runway and hit at least two cars, killing a 6-year-old boy in one.

Boeing makes four next-generation 737 models -- the 737-600, -700, -800 and -900. The first to enter airline service was the 737-700, with Southwest in December 1997.

Rather than an all-new design, these next-generation planes are based on the older "classic" 737s, but with extensive improvements and new systems.

More than 2,000 next-generation 737s are in operation with airlines around the world. The 737-800 entered airline service in the spring of 1998. It has become the best selling of the next-generation models. Through April, airlines had ordered 2,174 of the 737-800s, according to Boeing. About 1,000 of those have not yet been delivered.

Four other Boeing and Airbus planes that entered airline service in the 1990s -- the 777, 717, A330 and A340 -- have never had fatal accidents.

Boeing's 777, the company's last all-new jetliner, entered service in 1995. About 600 have been delivered to airlines around the world. The A340 and the A330 have been flying passengers since 1993. More than 700 are in operation.

Aviation experts say the lack of fatal accidents with these newest jets underscores the advances that have been made in aviation safety.

And that's what is puzzling about the Kenya Airways crash, said Nance, the safety consultant and former 737 pilot for Alaska Airlines.

Early media reports said investigators are focusing on weather. The plane apparently had delayed its takeoff for about an hour because of a storm.

James Ouma, chief pilot for Kenya Airways, told reporters that the Douala airport does not have weather radar. But the 737-800 has its own weather-radar system.

The Associated Press quoted an official close to the investigation as saying the jet may have flown through an intense storm that caused both engines to fail and the pilots were trying to glide the stricken jet back to the airport.

But Nance said the wreckage pattern does not fit that kind of accident. The 737 apparently nose-dived into a swamp about 12 miles from the airport. Unless the pilots stalled the plane, Nance said, it should have been able to make a crash landing in the jungle. But the accident scene suggests a more catastrophic impact, he said.

One possibility, Nance said, is pilot disorientation. But the 737-800 has instruments that would have warned the crew they were getting close to the ground.

"They would have to be really out to lunch for that to have happened," Nance said.

Massive flight control failure is another possibility, Nance said, but such an accident would be unprecedented for this kind of plane.

Sabotage is more likely, Nance said, or an accidental explosion in the baggage compartment.

Even an attack on the cockpit crew can't be ruled out, Nance said.

The National Transportation Safety Board in the U.S. said it is sending a team to the crash site to help in the investigation. So is Boeing.

The 737-800 carried two black boxes that will help investigators determine the cause of the crash, assuming they are found and the critical data can be retrieved. One black box would have recorded conversions in the cockpit between the two pilots and the sounds of any alarms going off. The other is the flight data recorder, which will tell investigators what was happening with the jet's hundreds of systems, including the engines and flight controls.

Boeing said the flight data recorder on the jet is one of the latest models and was able to record 1,000 parameters of information. For investigators, that could provide a gold mine of clues about what went wrong.

The Associated Press quoted a coast guard officer as saying late Monday that one of the jets' two black boxes had been recovered.

arcniz
8th May 2007, 04:06
News from Seattle (former home of Boeing):
Underlined area is my emphasis.

That is quite a news story, all things considered.

Please identify th paper or other medium where this was published?

ehwatezedoing
8th May 2007, 04:19
To answer one question in page 4,
Would a magnetic anomaly detector, i.e. one of those things you hunt subs with on Nimrods, P3s S3s etc detect a large metal mass ?
It would detect surface or underground anomalies/geological variations.
So yes.


Now back to the crash theories.

vapilot2004
8th May 2007, 05:27
Arcniz, that story was from the Seattle Post.

arcniz
8th May 2007, 06:25
Arcniz, that story was from the Seattle Post.
Thanks vapilot2004. With that kind of press, Seattle sure is one serious aviation town. More power to 'em.

Farty Flaps
8th May 2007, 08:23
As everyone is speculating how about this.

AP disconnect in turbulence, aircraft aggressively tossed around in same turbulence, two pilots new to the newly introduced pfd/nd combo option. (previous fits efis...fact). Loss of orientation /scan..unusual attitude followed by loss of control.

I bring this up only as the previous report mentioned the dreaded pilot error.

These 800s were new the pilots may have been still bedding in on the pfd. Overload may have screwed with their scan.
Not being judgemental just thinking back to my first few hrs on the pfd pr any new scan.

WHBM
8th May 2007, 08:56
The original of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer article about the accident is here :

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/314732_crash08.html

Balmy
8th May 2007, 09:14
Farty. Two airline pilots beaten by dissorientation and lose it in a classic spiral into the ground?????? Come now guys..........Really!!!??

autoflight
8th May 2007, 09:36
When I flew in this part of Africa for one of North Africa's best airlines, it was common for airliners, including my 727-200, to be greatly overloaded. I am not claiming that airline operators are deliberatley party to this dangerous practice, rather that they are not interested enough to actually do something about it. Typical overloading that I have witnessed is huge weights of hand luggage. One also wonders how much check-in luggage is counted as standard weights and how much understating of cargo weight occurrs.
I have also personally observed a pilot, who knew his aircraft was overloaded, take-off downwind on a hot day because it was convenient for his departure track. Instead of max take-off power on the brakes, a standing start from idle power showed disregard for the risk. Rotation at 10K below V1 was needed to get airborne in the remaining runway length. There is always the chance for out of range C of G under these circumstances as the load & balance calculations are a myth.
Space for baggage / cargo is the accepted limiting factor, not weight. An aircraft is considered just like a flying truck.
Of course this type of activity would need to be driven by corruption and we all all know there is no corruption in Africa.

Treetopflyer
8th May 2007, 10:03
Balmy: It can indeed happen... I believe spatial disorientation was the cause of Sharm El Sheick's crash a few years back. Not saying it's the cause here, though.

Autoflight: Hmm... It sounds like we flew for the same African operators... ;) Good description! I would hope though that a reputable airline like Kenyan would have better practices than this... Even though anybody can be badly loaded without it even showing on the loadsheet... It wouldn't be the first time on the continent that an airplane takes off way overloaded without the pilots even knowing about it...

Anyways, who knows what happened...

Balmy
8th May 2007, 10:38
Treetop.....Naahh......2 airline drivers overcome by spatial dissorientation and unable to catch it before they go farming......from probably 12,000ft+ (or at the very least 8,000 odd)........Nnaaahh......now you are scaring me.....????

If this were to be a possibility we would seriously need to review the way we do things in this industry.

We obviously dont know yet what caused it and dont have many clues but..........Apparently no radio call....... 20 odd miles from take-off.......and it seems they made a big hole....... but my guess is it would have to have been sudden and very serious. I dont think this is an double flame-out, or an A/P disconnect. Something went bang or broke big time.

barit1
8th May 2007, 11:32
Spatial disorientation can't be discounted. We don't like to think it happens, but check it out (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19780101-1).

:(

Sobelena
8th May 2007, 11:42
Different type and era. However, it can happen anywhere. If memory serves me right, these guys didn't have time to make a Mayday call. From ASN:

Status: Final
Date: 06 OCT 1981
Time: 17:12
Type: Fokker F-28 Fellowship 4000
Operator: NLM Cityhopper
Registration: PH-CHI
C/n / msn: 11141
First flight: 1979
Total airframe hrs: 4485
Cycles: 5997
Crew: Fatalities: 4 / Occupants: 4
Passengers: Fatalities: 13 / Occupants: 13
Total: Fatalities: 17 / Occupants: 17
Airplane damage: Written off
Location: near Moerdijk (Netherlands)
Phase: En route
Nature: Domestic Scheduled Passenger
Departure airport: Rotterdam Airport (RTM/EHRD), Netherlands
Destination airport: Eindhoven Airport (EIN/EHEH), Netherlands
Flightnumber: 431
Narrative:
During the weather briefing (44 minutes before take-off) the crew was warned for an area with thunderstorms with 3/8 cumulonimbus at 1200 feet, wind 210 /15-25 knots and 5km visibility. At 17:04 the F-28 took off from Rotterdam for a flight to Hamburg via Eindhoven. At 17:09 the crew noted heavy rainfall in thunderstorms on the weather avoidance radar and received clearance to avoid this area. At 17:12 the aircraft entered a tornado, which resulted in loads increasing to +6.8 G and -3,2 G. The right wing separated and the aircraft crashed out of control out of 3000 feet.


Events:

Weather - Turbulence/crosswind etc - (no windshear)
Airplane - Airframe - Wing
Result - Loss of control

Sources:
Willem Wendt

WHBM
8th May 2007, 11:48
Overloading ....

Just note that with a load of 105 pax the aircraft was only about 2/3 full, and even less compared to certified maximum capacity. I know this doesn't account for weight/balance issues, fuel load or cargo, but not full on the pax side and presumably baggage in proportion.

rattex4U
8th May 2007, 11:50
Balmy,

I have an idea you know Africa but sounds like you underestimate the weather up in that part of Africa.....the sort of weather between Disdo the 11 nm ILS reporting point for rwy 30 and the runway itself will swallow a B737 and spit it out in kit form, so the chances of disorientation in severe turbulence can not be ruled out....

Sounds like they took off in severe thunderstorms and downpour.....loosing control of that size aircraft so close to the ground was fatal, not enough height to recover.

Anyhow it was a sad day for aviation and family of those who lost their loved ones, hope they will find what went wrong on that night

R

merlinxx
8th May 2007, 11:55
I spent many hours watching folks like you in LOS at the old (new old, not old old) term, Ikeja side. I'd sit and wonder, hey chaps got a load sheet?. Maybe we had a Guiness & Gulda together in the Hungry Man at the Ikeja Airport Hotel (our Hilton the new block at the back & the disco!!) back then. 'twas the GPA guys with the 73s that really made me laugh, "get the **** off my feckin aeroplane, yer feckin moron, yer too feckin fat fer the feckin door"

Not good times, but glad I did it and learnt a hell of allot.

Witraz
8th May 2007, 12:02
Balmy,
Two UK accidents......Embraer E110 Bandeirante, ex Leeds and Classic B747 ex Standsted both lost with after A/H problems and crew becoming disorienated. It happens................nobody is perfect

Cytherea
8th May 2007, 12:15
Witraz,
In fairness to all crew I think we should state that the STN B747 crash was caused by the Captain's disorientation, his insistance on focusing on his ADI, ignoring the comparator horn, and his refusal to return the banking despite his FO's screams - Clearly more to do with CRM than simple disorientation of the whole crew...

Farty Flaps
8th May 2007, 12:22
balmy,
On the subject of upset and loss of control generally
I have seen much disorientation by all types of pilots in the sim 400 to 14000 hrs etc. The 800 with pfd option is a new configuration for kq intuitive scans take time to develop. High stress levels before that ,and it goes to rat**** quickly. Watching my own airlines upset training with familiar pilots in the sim was entertaining. watching guys new to the pfd plant aircraft after efato is also amusing in the sim. who knows it may have played apart.
It only takes one wrong or aggressive input after a sudden disconnect and upset to put the whole thing out of kilter to the point that the best you will do is pull the wings off in 10000 feet.Many things can cause an upset.
This is not about a skill thing its human factors and disorientation.Even with upset training its bloody hard to push thru and get a grip before structural limits are breached. Its not a c172 unusual attitude its potentialy a **** load of energy out of control quickly

Cytherea
8th May 2007, 12:28
All - as a matter of interest was this aircraft the SFP variant of the -800? I ask the question due the the "Emergency" Alert SB issued recently concerning the spoiler actuators and uncommanded "hardovers"? Two of which have been reported leading to the SB.

Balmy
8th May 2007, 12:38
I dont discount weather at all.....in fact I think it is a real possibility.....but not to cause 2 flame-outs, and I still think it very unlikely that this was an A/P failure followed by dissorientation......and I hape for the sake of the crews family that I am right

Like I said for my money it would have to have been sudden and very serious

Witraz
8th May 2007, 12:50
Cytherea,
Point taken. I only wanted to say that aircraft have been lost through disorientation, but was trying to avoid any politics by naming operators...CRM skills etc. I have no wish or desire to speculate on what happened here, and shall await the investigation results.

Lost in Saigon
8th May 2007, 14:29
the Nairobi-bound Boeing 737-800 sent a distress signal shortly after takeoff from Douala early Saturday

This has been reported many times, but never has anyone said how this distress signal was made.

Was it a distress radio call by the crew?

Or was it an automatic Emergency Locator Transmitter signal?

Very_Low_and_Fast
8th May 2007, 15:05
Apparently the distress signal was ELT one and there was no call as well as loss of communication.
If the engines lost power to whatever reason, crew had at least a moment or so to make a report or mayday call “while trying to return to the airport”. Instead was nothing.
More likely radios failed for some reason (like lightning strike) as well as EFIS leading to disorientation in IMC and night leading to nose dive (and engines running).
Could have lightning strike (and there were A LOT of them that night) affected ELT operation too? It was reported a brief signal and then nothing. Signal was so brief that it was located and plotted at the wrong place…

stars
8th May 2007, 15:37
The last words from the pilot were (apparently)....'we are in trouble'

Lost in Saigon
8th May 2007, 15:41
stars said:

The last words from the pilot were (apparently)....'we are in trouble'

Where did you get that information from?

ChristiaanJ
8th May 2007, 15:42
LiS,
All we seem to have so far are contradictory press reports.
Let's wait until we have something more substantial.

wes_wall
8th May 2007, 15:51
"The last words from the pilot were (apparently)....'we are in trouble' "

I think that was reported by the press when the airplane first went missing. Probably can be dismissed.

AlexL
8th May 2007, 16:57
having flown myself few times talking to Duala approach, bear in mind that just because a radio distress transmission wasn't aknowledged, or recieved, doesn't mean the pilots didn't transmit one. RT over there ain't the best in the world. I have droned around that area for a while trying to get an acknowledgement to an RT request.
Also I concur with the previous coments regarding upset recovery. I've just been through Jet upset training in the sim (757) and it gets out of hand very very very quickly. Before you know whats happening you can easily be past Vmo / Mmo heading down with very very few options left.
Anyone who thinks that disorientation isn't an issue has obviously never taken off into a big black hole (basically anywhere in africa at night!) on instruments.
Just because it appears to have happened suddenly doesn't imply a dramatic failure. Unusual attitudes at this altidue (<10000ft probably judging by the distance reported) get out of hand very quickly. Look at the reconstruction and report on the Sharm accident if you don't understand the physics and energy involved.
I'm not implying any cause for this accident, just saying don't dismiss anything because of comments about RT and erronious assumptions about unusual attitudes /disorientation

stars
8th May 2007, 18:12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder what else he heard...?

Kenya: KQ Crash Pilot's Last Words

The Nation (Nairobi)

Nation Team And Agencies
Nairobi

The dramatic last moments of the doomed Kenya Airways plane were captured by four chilling words from the pilot: "We are in trouble".

Captain Francis Mbatia Wamwea's desperate plea was radioed to the control tower at Douala International Airport, Cameroon, moments before the plane crashed into a dense forest, apparently killing all 114 aboard.

According to Douala governor Gounouko Hawonaye, the words were the last to be received at the Douala control tower.

Yesterday, 40 bodies were pulled out of the wreckage of flight KQ 507. The badly damaged and decomposing bodies were packed in body bags before being collected by the Red Cross and the military........

ChristiaanJ
8th May 2007, 20:07
Captain Francis Mbatia Wamwea's desperate plea ... "We are in trouble" ....
In honour of all those who perished....

Let's hope we will be able to establish what REALLY happened.

And let's hope that if there are lessons to be learned from what happened, that those lessons will REALLY be learned.

May they rest in peace.....

cringe
8th May 2007, 21:38
From http://www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?articleid=1143968322 :

Dr Mutua also criticised media reports that the pilot of the ill-fated plane issued a distress statement before the signal was lost.
“We have been informed by Cameroon’s civil aviation Authority that the media reports are not accurate. According to the authority, the last communication with the tower by the Kenya Airways pilot was his response acknowledging a takeoff instruction from the tower,” Mutua said.

Dagger Dirk
9th May 2007, 01:09
Cytherea asked:
All - as a matter of interest was this aircraft the SFP variant of the -800? I ask the question due the the "Emergency" Alert SB issued recently concerning the spoiler actuators and uncommanded "hardovers"? Two of which have been reported leading to the SB.
I believe that it was not an SFP as
Clearly, from this list (http://www.planespotters.net/Production_List/Boeing/737/737-800/index.html?sort=9&start=5) 5Y-KYA was NOT an SFP (as all the GOL's 737-800's evidently are)
However it is interesting to note that, on a quick head-count, 12 out of 78 737-800 AD's are related to elevators or elevator tabs. May well be more than 12, as AD descriptions often belie what's in their content.
Edited to add: "I'm also reading that the wreckage location is only about 5kms from the end of the runway at Douala".
.
CITING: <<It took the authorities nearly 48 hours to locate the crash site, a delay that has come in for some heavy criticism, especially after it emerged that the the plane had gone down almost immediately after take-off.
.
"We are talking about 30 seconds, so it had just lifted off," Kenya Airways chief pilot Captain James Ouma told a news conference in Nairobi.
He gave the precise location of the site as just 5,42km from the end of the runway.>>

Balmy
9th May 2007, 06:38
Wow if that location is accurate then all the previous press including recent reports and pictures of the crash site and its location is a bunch of junk....seems hard to believe.

Also if it is 5km (about 3 nm) from the runway that puts a whole new spin on the ball.....and I would guess it opens up a whole new bunch of possible scenarios.

Hope they get data recorders properly processed the investigation done by someone who knows what they are doing.

Rollingthunder
9th May 2007, 06:44
The recorders appear to be going to Canada for analysis as it's seen as a neutral country.( US - home of Boeing, EU - home of Airbus - Boeing rivalry)

Whenwe
9th May 2007, 08:38
DD that 5.42km does not seem right. At 5.42nm that would put it near the original estimated position: about 20km SE of the airport.
Gosh, so close to the airport; somebody should have seen or heard something.
Tragic, never the less!!

Another Number
9th May 2007, 08:45
But if 30s airborne, then 5km sounds right.

Casts doubt on that doubtful "vertical entry" rumour early.

Still - how can anyone miss seeing the crash while so early in the climb - just how bad was the weather?

Farmer 1
9th May 2007, 10:39
Various reports mention particularly heavy rain. I've known rain stopping play in Douala before - like reducing visibility to less than 200m. Unless you experience it you cannot imagine what that is like, and how much noise it makes. Close to the airport, a lot of the accommodation is corrugated iron shacks - you wouldn't hear the neighbours setting off a bomb in weather like that.

I imagine the aircraft would disappear into low cloud shortly after take-off, even if the runway had been visible from the tower, so its crash would be unseen and unheard. Let's hope we find the answers.

I've just learned that there were several friends of a friend on board.

R.I.P. à tous.

TheShadow
9th May 2007, 11:00
The Sounds of a Useful Silence
.
http://tinyurl.com/27nzax
.

lomapaseo
9th May 2007, 11:36
Before I get a virus on my machine may I ask what on earth is this about?

The Sounds of a Useful Silence

kingair9
9th May 2007, 12:08
It is a Word doc and it is clean. Worth reading.

renfrew
9th May 2007, 12:31
Caledonian Airways lost a DC-7C in a take off accident at Douala in 1962.That definitely was a technical fault to an elevator.
111 people on board and also fell into a mangrove swamp.

Fat Reggie
9th May 2007, 15:20
A "friend" tells me KQ ticket sales are way down. Cancelling seems a wise move till the investigation pans out.

anjouan
9th May 2007, 15:28
I'm absolutely disgusted with some of the replies I've read on this thread. Several of you should be ashamed of yourselves and don't deserve to call yourselves aviation professionals.

One hundred and fifteen human beings sadly lost their lives in this tragedy. Does the fact that it happened in Africa make it any less of a tragedy? Does the poor safety record of many airlines in Africa make it any less of a tragedy? Requiescat in Pace the souls of all those tragically departed.

Roy Hudd, have you even been to Africa before coming out with your inane, thoughtless and inappropriate statements? Many roads in Africa are extremely dangerous and air travel is safer from road hazards and from a security standpoint than road travel. Yes, the air safety record in Africa is poor, but there are many good, safe airlines here with excellent safety standards and records. Judge not, lest ye be judged :mad:

11Fan
9th May 2007, 15:32
Good article TheShadow.

Like kingair9 says, worth reading.

threemiles
9th May 2007, 16:14
Great article TheShadow.

Like kingair9 says, worth reading.

misior77
9th May 2007, 18:57
Place of the accident...

http://www.tvn24.pl/2046603,12691,0,0,1,wideo.html

:(

DingerX
9th May 2007, 20:26
Who wrote that article, and how does her/his position with OMW (read Vee) australia relate to aviation authority?
(that said, it's by far the most informative thing I've read on the incident)

RoyHudd
9th May 2007, 20:56
Sad but true, aviation is unsafe in Africa. Few airlines operate enough flights to allow statistically valid safety data analyses, I agree. Those that do, simply do not pass muster.

I have flown in Africa, (unsafe environment), have driven in Africa (also dangerous), and have met many wonderful people in this beautiful, corrupt, undeveloped continent. Aviation simply requires a culture of development, and a culture of discipline and adherence to SOP's/rules. The last is sadly lacking in far too many people, including some in professional positions such as airline and military pilots. Emotion has no part in this field.

Bridge Builder
9th May 2007, 21:33
RoyHudd. I think you’re right. Although I have sympathy for the emotion displayed by Anjouan, some of the personal comments on this thread may well deter what may well be valuable contributions. This is a rumour network, and it’s only fair that we're allowed to give educated guesses.

Judging by the small number of contributions to this thread today, it looks like such negativity has sadly succeeded.

ChristiaanJ
9th May 2007, 21:42
Bridge Builder,
We've now had 11 pages of "uneducated guesses", frankly.
I, for one, will be waiting for a few facts.

Fat Reggie
9th May 2007, 21:50
I cannot understand why some here would advocate the oppression of free speech on this blog over an aircrash. Unless of course they have something to hide, on behalf of KQ, from the ticket buying public. This is an Aviation blog for Christ Sake! Aviation people Don't Like aircrashes!

All this "calm down don't say anyting" is a load of crap. Its OUR JOB to speculate, to understand, to reach for the truth, to trouble-shoot the problem, to learn, TO THINK!

However some clearly don't like free speech, free thought, Aviators that question, or, anyone but automatons that obey blindly whatever crap they are fed for the better glory and service to the Masta' that hides behind the curtain makeing mega bucks off the deal.

Removing non-offensive posts...HOW DARE THEY!

ChristiaanJ
9th May 2007, 22:07
Fat Reggie,
What bit you?
So far we have one nearly new B737-800 in a swamp at a location close to the airport it took off from, with no survivors.
Everything else is a matter of contradictory press reports.

"Free speech"? Sure. But 11 pages of mostly drivel, and futile speculation? To what purpose?

At times, "free speech" means keeping your trap shut until you know what you're talking about. You obviously don't.

ChristiaanJ
9th May 2007, 22:14
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6636013.stm13.stm
It would seem that both the FDR and the CVR have been found, at least.

Fat Reggie
9th May 2007, 22:25
Aviators speculating what happened to cause an aircrash and sharing that speculation with other aviators is NEVER "futile". To suggest such "drivel" has absolutly NO constructive purpose unless you are afraid of the truth.

YOU don't think for me and you certainly don't speak for that Aviatior that is having trouble in a thunderstorm in the middle of the night. That aviator has a right to shared information from his/her colleagues and to use or disregard as his/her brain decides. Not disregarded by you, whatever the hell you are. I see YOU are offering nothing useful what-so-ever.

Even WHEN this "thruth" comes out....we just might further QUESTION IT! If not on this blog on thousands MORE! Maybe even in the mainstream media world wide!

How do you like them apples?

barit1
9th May 2007, 22:30
The great thing about free speech is that, in a time of information vacuum, it brings out those who have these wonderful theories and speculation based on essentially worthless media reports.
Their words give us a window into their minds. By their fruits shall ye know them.
:(

hoggsnortrupert
10th May 2007, 00:28
I operated out of Douala in 99 with a DHC-6.
One occassion we were enroute in the late afternoon from YNS to DLA via the ED NDB.
As we approached the coast we witnessed a very significant water spout, the top of which appeared to be significantly above our level.
Followed by rain you could not possibly imagine.
Second I have felt the severity of a unidentified by radar, and accidental fly into,such a TS.
Out to the NW of YNS, we intercepted a GPS extended Centerline for YNS from a turn to the left.
The radar screen went from some mild Level 2 stuff, too a complete purple quicker than I would haver ever thought possible.
I had to give the old girl her head and actually trimmed it slight nose up as it was no good fighting it, and applied power initially,lowered a TAD of flap, and put the props into full increase, it was FL210 before I felt I could encourage it down without strainning the old thing, then I got the full force of the Down Component , and had to whip the power off and re trim and fought it as smoothly as I could, we popped out the other side at FL100 there abouts.
It was vicious, really really vicious.
I have no doubt that it IS Extremely likely this poor crew got caught in something similar.
This I have posted this from experiance, I do not think all the speculation is at all helpfull in any way.
Yes and Yes again to free speech and all that, but Fella's come on now, show some professional respect.
As for Africa being a Dangerous place to operate, I found it no more so than anywhere else on this sphere.
Yes I have had my near misses, and bad clearences through the language thingy.
But keep it in context, go back and look at what some of you Fella's are writting.
A new machine, with a good crew, God Bless them all.
RIP. :mad: :mad: Who said life was fair.
H/Snort

lomapaseo
10th May 2007, 00:37
To shut off the drivel we need to shut off the faucet and die of thirst.

I prefer a water filter.

Telling somebody to shut up is not functional albeit it may be satisfying to some.

I prefer to filter my own, from the torrents of knowledge practising free speech.

Don't get me completely wrong, I do expect other readers to expose drivel when they see it, and save me from being a fool.

anartificialhorizon
10th May 2007, 07:00
In a way PPRUNE is like the crew hotel bar.....we can chew the fat over this and that and what is, or may, affect our lives.

When an air crash occurs we quite rightly want to chat about it as aviators and inquisitive human beings. Look how popular Air Crash Investigation is on the TV. People are interested in disasters.Just like sitting in the bar some of what will be said will be factual, some speculation, some pure bs.

The fact that this thread has over 600 postings is testamant to our interest in when things go wrong and results in the inevitable rumours and counter rumours, fact and fiction....

We cannot just bury our heads in the sand, be sombre, wring our hands and await the report from the so called experts. If you have not noticed recently quite a few of the final reports are inconclusive and not all parties agree with the official line, a bit like PPRUNE really !!

Having been to more accident sites than most I can see how so many different theories / scenarios abound and all are considered possible until disproven. That's the job of the official investigators.

Thankfully in this world of free speech we can all go to the bar and chew the fat......or logon to PPRUNE.

My thoughts are with the departed, their families and loved ones.

Balmy
10th May 2007, 07:10
Well said Fat Reg. There have been some posts (none of them mine of course) on this thread which I have thought were silly (perhaps even stupid) at best.....but whatever our opinion they have the right to express the thought.

There have been a number of posts about aviation in Africa being dangerous but let us not forget 2 things

1. In most endeavours in life we correct our mistakes......in aviation we most often bury them. We as aviators often pride ourselves in facts like these.....it is a statement about the required exactness of what we do.
2. We also staunchly claim and assert that the final responsibility of the safety of the aircraft rests with us and we have the right to override all in the interests of safety......that being so the sad lack of facilities etc we often find in Africa is of itself not a reason for aviation to be dangerous.

I find posts like the one earlier that dealt with the water spout and the extremity of weather to be fascinating.......we should all be aware of the power of the elements and not be lulled into a false sense of security by the technology we are often allowed to wear around the sky

Octavius
10th May 2007, 07:23
Speaking as a non-aviation professional I think something significant has emerged from this thread.

Granted 99.9% of posts were speculation I hope someone, somewhere who can change things also noticed how one aspect of crash location can be made better.

If it was not for the "drivel" on this thread I would not have realised what needed to be done.

We cannot stop aircraft crashing, but we can know where they hit the ground.

Pinkman
10th May 2007, 10:11
Possibly the reason that some of you think it's drivel and others wonderful is because some of you think of it as a 'blog' where you can voice your opinion however worthless, and others remain wedded to the original intent when pprune was set up in the '90s. Some of the postings to this thread, and the LAX-LHR 3 engined thread were classic examples that go against the spirit of the rules: http://www.pprune.org/forums/misc.php?do=cfrules
particularly its raison d'etre: "The Professional Pilots Rumour Network (PPRuNe) is a community of professional pilots and people who work in aviation, both experienced and inexperienced. Your behaviour here, and ours, can be summed up in four words: "Mi casa, su casa" (my house is your house)"
I work on the fringes of aviation (fuel, runways, etc.) and pprune helps me do my job. I personally support Rainboe - now silenced for reminding you of the rules and rationale - and while he was perhaps a bit forceful, by and large everything he said was true.
This is NOT a blog. It is a community of professional pilots and people who work in aviation and while you may bang on about Free Speech, remember that free speech comes with responsibilities otherwise it gets taken away - as it nearly did over the Dick Smith/Caroline Tulip case. You all have a responsibility to only comment within your knowledge base and within the rules. Suggest that that some of you read them.
<Close rant>

Danny
10th May 2007, 10:43
Pinkman, thank you for your concise clarification of PPRuNe's raison d'etre. One minor point though... Rainboe has not been silenced. He may be quiet at the moment but don't let that lull some of the 'amateurs' into a false sense of security so that they can carry on trying to mix it amongst the professionals. Rainboe has no leash and could, at any moment, very easily leap in amongst the unsuspecting 'amateurs', harassing, worrying and ripping their posts to shreds.

Whilst not a PPRuNe moderator, Rainboe should be considered as the Rottweiler some of us mods keep by our side. Don't pet or feed him. He does not tolerate fools gladly. He has the experience to back up his views.

To the rest of the readers of this website, any posts you make should be done with the knowledge that there are probably several ways to get your point across. Some ways are likely to incur the wrath of Rainboe and quite often we will not be around to save you from the bruising you may receive.

You have been warned! :oh:

Balmy
10th May 2007, 16:22
Back to the subject of this thread has the crash site now been "for real" (not going to change it in the next edition) confirmed as 5 km from the runway and has the voice recorder been found?

fox niner
10th May 2007, 16:38
So has the DFDR already arrived in Canada? I am sort of looking forward to the first real evidence/data, as all of you are.

Rollingthunder
10th May 2007, 17:45
"So has the DFDR already arrived in Canada?"

Don't know. There had to be agreement between Cameroon and Kenya before that step took place.

If you've ever seen an animation of actual moments before crash based on (D)FDR data - that program was developed in conjuction with the TSB and has proved to be very helpfull in the past.

wes_wall
10th May 2007, 18:51
If both recorders have been (or to be) sent to Canada, then I do not think you can look forward to any info quickly. The Canadians are very slow to release information, and are forbidden by law to release any cockpit voice recording info. Only if something is quickly discovered that requires a SB from Boeing will info be forthcoming soon.

lomapaseo
10th May 2007, 18:58
So has the DFDR already arrived in Canada? I am sort of looking forward to the first real evidence/data, as all of you are.

Typically DFDR data or it analysis is not released to the public until the parties have had a chance to concur in its analysis (months from now) If there are any complications implicating the crew don't expect it to be released period.

The more likey tidbit that might leak it's way out in weeks would be an obvious mechanical fault.

Just as an example, I'm still waiting for any hint of DFDR data that even hints at why the GOL B737 went down

Balmy
11th May 2007, 07:44
Just a thought.....

If the 5 kms is correct that would be less than a minute after lift-off (I believe one Kenyan Airways spokesman referred to 30 second) the wheel would hardly have been in the wells.....then this probably qualifies as a take-off accident, and probably opens a whole new bunch of possibilities.

Interestingly I watched the video footage of the Thompson's incident yesterday and (granted it was daylight VFR not an appalling night in Douala) they made a mayday call before they had crossed the end of the runway.

lomapaseo
11th May 2007, 12:29
Is there anything new in this investigation?

I'm extremely keen to view some decent quality photos of 800 pixels or better

wes_wall
11th May 2007, 16:37
Air Wise reports data from a French satellite station led Cameroon rescuers 150 km off track as they searched last weekend . Story at


http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1178890203.html

cavortingcheetah
11th May 2007, 16:46
:hmm:

There may be some who might regard the prismatic Rainboe as a Rottweiler and then again there may be others who would regard RainBoe as a toxic windshield rain repellent.
Either way, a jolly useful additive to Pprune, even when his canister leaks!:D

cavortingcheetah
11th May 2007, 17:13
:hmm:
:D :D

One shall continue to regard the canister in question as a basket of flowers and the recent appalling lapse into colloquial English as nothing more than a temporary, if intentional aberration or wandering of the intellect.;)

Union Jack
11th May 2007, 18:21
There may be some who might regard the prismatic Rainboe as a Rottweiler

Or even ....

Prismatic, or sometimes just called "prism", refers to a usually long, narrow, wedge-shaped sedimentary body with a width to thickness ratio greater than 5 to 1 but less than 50 to 1, and a length 1.5 to 3 times its width.

Prismatic is a novel of plague, madness and buried secrets.

Is there something that Cavorting Cheetah knows that we don't?

Jack

PS To quote Mandy, one of Dick Emery's best loved characters "Ooh, you are awful - but I like you! ...":)

lomapaseo
11th May 2007, 18:48
Any news on the subject accident?

chuckles1066
11th May 2007, 19:09
"Our concern as aviation professionals at the moment is for the crew, and their family, it is their bird. The passengers are responsibility of the insurance company, and the company public relations."

As an outsider (i.e, not employed in the industry), your view is quite enlightening. I'm wondering if it's reflective of all those who work in the aviation industry and perhaps is worthy of a wider audience (i.e national newspapers)?

You must be very proud of yourself :=

Memetic
11th May 2007, 19:59
chuckles1066 - you picked one, unrepresentative, post out of hundreds, and if you had read them all you would know that. Any journalist worthy of the title will have read on.

The pros on here are looking to learn from this accident, to make aviation safer - for us, their passengers.

Lets let them carry on.

Nardi Riviera
11th May 2007, 20:17
Thread is deteriorating by the hour and minute. Alas, just like so many "hot" topics before it.

No wonder many "old salts" have migrated to other levels in the building after know-nothings-acclaiming-right-of speech-and-who-cares entered the scene.

Rainboe has had the courage to speek up for all of us! Anyone can get a desperate feeling while sifting through umphteen posts only to find nothing useful.

What gives anyone a "right to waste somebody elses time" and not heed their justified protests ???

Sad. This place once was a serendipity re aviation info.

Sorry if going OT, just had to let the steam out... :ugh:

mini
11th May 2007, 23:21
mini got confirmation this evening that a Mate of his went down with this flight.

RIP Anthony. :sad:

hoggsnortrupert
12th May 2007, 00:52
Just a word of warning, I recieved a PM from a "Slobo Lekic" asking for my contact, and for my coments re flying in and around Africa:
This guy says he is a Belgium reporter.
I choose to not partake, as I hope others that maybe contacted will also choose wisely. H/Snort:ok:
.
Also:
To Quote:
There may be some who might regard the prismatic Rainboe as a Rottweiler
Or even ....
Prismatic, or sometimes just called "prism", refers to a usually long, narrow, wedge-shaped sedimentary body with a width to thickness ratio greater than 5 to 1 but less than 50 to 1, and a length 1.5 to 3 times its width.
Prismatic is a novel of plague, madness and buried secrets.
Is there something that Cavorting Cheetah knows that we don't?
Jack
PS To quote Mandy, one of Dick Emery's best loved characters "Ooh, you are awful - but I like you! ..." End Quote.
Yes I liked old Dick Emery, it would appear a case of:
Brevitas pro nonnullus tamen non pro totus.
Quisnam est par umonst nos.
Rotweilers were bred for pulling cattle beasts out of the swamp were they not.

jet_noseover
12th May 2007, 04:06
Thread is deteriorating by the hour and minute.
Mate,
Those that feel that have to comment on the irrelevant posts of others, spoil the threads. Why the drivel can not be ignored and/or deleted I will not understand.
In general:
If you are the professionals you claim to be, it is rather easy to manouver between the garbage and essence here. Take your fight on the personal level to the jetblast forum and see how long it's going to last there.
Iomapaseo,
Any news on the subject accident?
Maybe not as much as you'd hope for but some. (see below)
Thank you for trying to bring this thread where it should be. (How many times did you try??) :ugh:
hoggsnortrupert,
You might find it interesting. See who the author is. :)
Long 3 pages article from News Flash:
Just to quote few paragraphs:
DOUALA, Cameroon (AP) — Three jetliners sat ready for takeoff at Douala International Airport, their crews waiting for a massive thunderstorm to move away.
Just a few minutes past midnight, all three radioed air traffic control to check the weather report. They were told the storm would take another hour to dissipate, and the Cameroon Airlines and Royal Air Maroc crews opted to wait it out.
But Capt. Francis Mbatia Wamwea of Kenya Airways Flight 507, already delayed for an hour and carrying scores of passengers with connections to catch, judged the weather had improved sufficiently to permit departure for Nairobi, Kenya. [ ]
After Wamwea gave the go-ahead, the Kenyan Airways crew radioed the tower, pulled away from the gate and taxied toward Runway 12, heading roughly southwest from the airport.
Douala tower cleared the flight for takeoff a few minutes later, instructing it to report on reaching 5,000 feet.
The pilot acknowledged. It was not clear what time that final voice transmission was received from the plane. [ ]
Flight crews are responsible for the decision whether to take off or land in bad weather, usually depending on guidelines prescribed by their airline. And while air traffic control can take measures to prevent flights, including closing down airports, such drastic measures are highly unusual outside the northern hemisphere where heavy winter snows can block runways and bring traffic to a standstill. [ ]
Wamwea, 53, was an experienced flyer with about 8,500 hours on jets. He had joined Kenya Airways 20 years ago and enjoyed the reputation of a diligent and professional pilot.
The co-pilot, Andrew Kiuru, was only 23. He joined the airline a year ago after completing flight school in South Africa.
The cockpit voice recorder has not yet been found, so no details of the final exchanges between Wamwea and Kiuru are available. It remains unclear which man was flying the plane at the time, but Wamwea would have been the ultimate authority.
The flight data recorder has been recovered.
The crash site also indicates the pilot was maneuvering at the time, banking sharply to the right. This would have exposed the raised left wing to the gust, investigators said.
The low altitude would have made it impossible to recover from the resulting dive.
Investigators said they cannot yet discount other factors, including mechanical failure, pilot disorientation or even sabotage. But no sign of a blast or fire has been found so far by the search teams, which include seven experts from the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board and two Boeing representatives.
Investigators say it will likely take months to collect and analyze the evidence. They said a final report on the crash would probably not be completed this year.
Much, much more at:
http://www.silive.com/newsflash/international/index.ssf?/base/international-0/117890574512180.xml&storylist=international&thispage=2
mini
Sorry for your loss, mate.

hoggsnortrupert
12th May 2007, 04:54
Unmitigated firmus of a penuriosus vexillum.:ugh:

rmac
12th May 2007, 10:31
Dunno Hoggsnortrupert,

Fairly simple to find out about other aircraft waiting out the storm, particularly in africa where information is readily available for a little silver in the palm, and the weather seems well confirmed from many angles, even an uneducated African farmer can recognise bad weather when its on top of him. I've been close to artillery fire which wasn't as loud as an African storm at full tilt in wet season. Add to this the scant prior evidence of post 1990 designed aircraft suddenly shedding bits of important kit at critical moments. The distance from take off and the basic ballistics of the flight are fairly well known.

If you cut out the speculative bits about gusts under the wings etc then I think there is a very high probability of this accident being considered weather related when all the facts are finally released (if they are).

A couple of years back I was right seating a B200 on a ferry from Bangkok to Singapore in the mid levels, and we penetrated the edge of a pretty nasty embedded cell, that at one stage nearly had us on our back, requiring full aileron and a healthy boot of rudder to keep us the right way up, and we were way past 90 degrees when it was applied.

Considering all that, I don't think this bit of journalism was so bad, and certainly didn't seek to be sensasionalist

rmac

Danny
12th May 2007, 11:01
Can we please drop the scrapping over who has the right to say what on here. I will be the final arbiter. Any more mention of it will be a waste of time as I will delete any more discussion on this thread that isn't related to the accident itself.

I have to agree that the above piece of journalism is one of the better ones we have seen. Aside from the bit about the gust and the a/c banking, the rest of it is quite good, assuming that the facts mentioned are correct.

Now, if only all the posters on here were as gifted as the journalist Slobodan Lekic, from The Associated Press who wrote the article referred to, then we'd have peace and harmony on PPRuNe. The article is not definitive and the bit about the gust and the raised wing are, as described, even if not technically correct, in a manner that shows the initial thinking of the investigators.

Those of us who fly these aircraft for a living can at least agree that the weather was almost certainly a contributing factor to the accident. To find out that at least two other a/c and crews decided that they would not depart at that time whilst one other did and ended up as wreckage tells us more about what happened tan some of the more fanciful posts that got us all riled up in the first place.

I suggest that everyone re-read the article in question from the beginning: Reconstructing the last moments of Kenya Airways Flight 507 (http://tinyurl.com/38wjak)

Melax
12th May 2007, 12:06
http://allafrica.com/stories/200705110831.html

alexmcfire
12th May 2007, 12:23
Seem like the aircraft had flown, 1440 hrs and 476 cycles before it went down...:(

lomapaseo
12th May 2007, 12:42
I'm not a fan of "what if" news articles any more than "drivel"

How many B737 size planes have been knocked out of the air on takeoff into weather ?

I'll await a definition of the storm in aviation terms before I accept the significance of one pilot accepting clearance while others sat it out.
In other words I'm not ready to fixate on this as a cause anymore than others

F4F
12th May 2007, 13:43
Danny oyez oyez:

From Rainboe
This forum in particular is a place where pilots are meant to be able to discuss issues- instead it has been hijacked by everyone with a computer thinking possibilities off the top of their head- of no use to anyone. It has been a waste of time reading most of what is here, so if you are not a pilot or experienced aviation professional, please desist unless you have something positive or sensible to add to progress the discussion.

Thanks for putting our thoughts to words!

ChristiaanJ
12th May 2007, 16:02
Half remark, half question.
I hope that as part of the enquiry there will be a small ELT "sub-group" that will try to clarify the garbled ELT transmission that led to the initial search being way off.
This time the delay in finding the wreckage made no difference to the final outcome.... the next time it might.