Ryanair - 6

[chrism20]

Just logged onto Sky news and they are carrying this as their breaking news story.

Ryanair Is To Reduce Its Services From Stansted Airport Over Landing Charges Row With BAA | Business | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/Ryanair-Is-To-Reduce-Its-Services-From-Stansted-Airport-Over-Landing-Charges-Row-With-BAA/Article/200907315342806)

The full story isn't up as yet as it says more follows.

40% is a hell of a cut

[Manchester Kurt]

BBC NEWS | Business | Ryanair reduces Stansted flights (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8160923.stm)

[harrogate]

BBC NEWS | Business | Ryanair reduces Stansted flights (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8160923.stm)

[sitigeltfel]

O'Leary is putting the blame on airport and passenger duty charges. This is a bit rich from the master of spurious charges and taxes himself, ten quid to book by credit card? And don't get me started on Visa Electron cards, if everyone had one then that freebie would disappear 'toute suite'.

[EvilDoctorK]

The airline operated 40 aircraft from Stansted in the summer but said this would fall to 24 this winter.

But surely the key question is how many did they base in STN last winter

According to their own press release this time last year - Ryanair - News : Ryanair Unveils 14% Capacity Reductions (http://www.ryanair.co.uk/site/EN/news.php?yr=08&month=jul&story=rte-en-170708) that number was 28 ... still a capacity drop .. but a long way off 40%

[Aisle2c]

40% is huge. Does anyone know from previous experience, when and how will we will find out the actual routes that will be cut ?

[positive]

Last year they based 28 aircraft at Stansted so 40% reduction is way off the mark and what about all of Ryanair's charges!!!!

[tommyc2005]

The devil, or lack of, is in the detail - it is effectively the same cut as last year, just presented in a more hard edged manner to grab column inches.

Based aircraft down 40% but capacity down 30% - equal to 28 based aircraft - so exactly the same as last year then. Expect more rotations performed by aircraft from elsewhere, using availability freed up by seasonal destination cuts from aircraft based in those locations. Possibly a few extra routes cut for the winter compared to last year, but increased services from other destinations to take their place such as the recently announced Rygge.

[tommyc2005]

Aisle2c - expect the cuts to come from destinations with little winter demand - so the likes of Rimini, Pula, perhaps a few French destinations nowhere near the ski resorts, and from frequency cuts to other destinations. Again, the same as last year. There may be the odd few extra rotations to the likes of Tenerife, and Salzburg, Turin etc once the ski season starts.

[Noxegon]

You know, the more I read Ryanair press releases the more irritated I get -- at Ryanair. The worlds favourite airline? By number of passengers, perhaps - but how many of those have a choice?

It's probably just as well I don't run one of these major airports. If I did I'd be tempted to charge extra fees for handling Ryanair aircraft.

[flyingmig21]

What goes around comes around :ok:

[Confirmed Must Ride]

whats more worrying is that they are in talks about the possibility of passengers standing!

[racedo]

whats more worrying is that they are in talks about the possibility of passengers standing!

What worries me more is that you actually believe this :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[racedo]

The worlds favourite airline? By number of passengers, perhaps - but how many of those have a choice?

Everybody has a choice.

UK media hate Ryanair because Journos don't get extra special treatment like BA used to dish out and they have brought cheap air travel to the masses which Journo look down on.

Its the same disdain that the media had for Holiday flights in the 70's and 80's.

[burble]

I believe there were no talks regarding passengers standing and that it was entirely a ruse to gain free add space by the Ryanair team.
But this latest news is disturbing low passenger loads in the British isles combined with lowering yields across the network and the Fr machine is hurling money out the window faster than any had expected. New aircraft coming all the time and a business model based on continued expansion. Network contraction and an increasingly desperate management team. Its been a nice ride but I think I'll get out now before the inevitable fire sale. Seeya.

[Lord Lardy]

You know, the more I read Ryanair press releases the more irritated I get -- at Ryanair. The worlds favourite airline?


Can any of you computer wizzkids please help me. Every time I log onto the world's favourite airline's website I can only seem to be able to choose destinations around Europe and a small handful in northern Africa. You really would think that if world's favourite airline were kind enough to put a handful of destinations from another continent in that they would finish the job and put them all in. Perhaps it's just my computer. I'ts really starting to get me down. Should I be looking at bringing it back to the shop? I'm sure it's still under warranty. :confused:

[1800ed]

I've considered using Ryanair a few times in the winter and always after going through the booking process I'm amazed at how expensive it is. I then go to the BA website and book a cheaper service.

[AndyH52]

Ryanair's press release states that they are reducing the Stansted compliment to 24 aircraft for the winter - so a reduction of a further four aircraft over last winter.

[tommyc2005]

AndyH - You are correct in that there will be 4 less based aircraft compared to last winter. What I am saying though is that capacity wise it is equivilent to last year's 28 based aircraft as there will be more rotations using foreign-based aircraft.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Thread copied over to Pax and SLF for the passenger comments

[Centrefire]

1800ed,

My last two, and next one, flights to Bratislava cost £17, £8.40 and £20 respectively.These were the total cost of the return flights including all taxes and charges. Can't see those sort of prices on BA.

I have flown to various places in Europe with Ryanair and have had great, polite service from all their staff, with never any problems.

I do accept that they have quite a few add-on costs, but I have read their rules and conditions, and know what to expect for my money. They haven't let me down yet - but I suppose there's still time.

[racedo]

I've considered using Ryanair a few times in the winter and always after going through the booking process I'm amazed at how expensive it is. I then go to the BA website and book a cheaper service.

Right. Given the fact that BA is effectively closing most of its services apart from at LHR then BA is no longer an option for the majority of people in the UK.

[Day_Dreamer]

Continental Airlines has said that it is to cut 1,700 jobs amid a slump in revenue and passenger numbers.

The airline is also increasing its fees for checking in bags and for making reservations by telephone.

The Slump is Global, who is next to go "Bust".

Looks like just the tip of the Global Iceberg.

[old git 99]

Timesonline is quoting Ryanair as saying that no Flight or Cabin crew will be lost: they are all being transferred to other airports. Any theories which one? Or do we take it with a block rather than a pinch of salt?

[45989]

For a certain prolific poster:

Put whatever spin you like on it. The real reasons are inescapable

Over capacity,falling demand and yields

[Noxegon]

Everybody has a choice.

Not when the alternatives have been driven off the route (or indeed the city pairing) that you want to fly.

UK media hate

I am not and never have been media. I'm frequent SLF that is happy to pay a little bit more for a quality service. I had the privilege of flying WestJet a few weeks ago on an internal flight in Canada; it'd be a real treat if an equivalent appeared in my local market.

[Willing to sell soul]

BBC News story (Red button) shows an increase of just four aircraft grounded/redeployed compared with last Winter. Usual media hype left me with a rather tight sphincter for a few minutes there! :uhoh:

The Ryanair guys month of paid leave, and Brookfield guys month of unpaid leave over the Winter months' will probably (hopefully!) take up most of the slack.

WTSS

[mickyman]

No-doubt all the Ryanair bashers will rejoice in the news
if it is a true reduction.

MM

[VanBosh]

This is the usual Ryanair grandstanding - blaming the BAA, Stansted the UK Government and even having a pop at Dublin in their press release. Yes the tax does hurt demand but its the same for all airlines and as ryanair says lowest cost wins so if you add 10GBP to each ticket Ryanair should still be the cheapest and if the cheapest wins then there should be no issue for Ryanair. I know that as prices rise demand will fall etc

Before when they pulled out of airports / reduced capacity they used to say...due to management incompetence at airport X we have moved 3 planes etc top to airport Y. Now the planes are just grounded showing that the true reason is no demand anywhere. I have heard them go on and on about governments in Greece/Spain/Holland/Belgium dropping taxes or lowering airport fees and how Ireland and the UK should follow. Well how come Ryanair havnt opened a huge base in any of these countries recently? No Demand - simple explanation.

[wsmempson]

I note from that article that O'Learey has told the journo that he is in talks with the CAA to get permission for standing passengers, like in a bus. I never know what to believe from the man....

[bigdaviet]

Just answering the queries regarding Beauvais and Torp:

Currently a Prestwick crew flies daily PIK-BVA-OPO-BVA-PIK as an 'early' day.

With Porto becoming a new base I believe that Porto crews will now be flying the OPO-BVA which is increasing to twice daily.

Haven't heard this officially, but by putting two together it seems that Prestwick crews will be flying PIK-BVA-Torp-BVA-PIK. All the times match up with the good old 25 minute turn around and it starts around the same time as the Porto base opens.

[curser]

Noxegon, not sure what your local market is but over in Ireland there is just that sort of comparison to be made. Given a choice people want a competitively priced flight and good service. Aer Lingus has been filling its aircraft with eager passengers for some time. Ryanair have been able to stay in the game by subsidising its Irish operation with high fares charged on different sections of its network, but now the preasure is on there as well.
Squeezing Aer Arran off Cork/Dublin and claiming he's competeing succesfully with ATR's on a 30minute low density flight, who does he think he's kidding (other than the authorities).
Now he threatens to shrink if eveyone does'nt play ball, who gives a toss, shrink away pal and allow competative airlines with healthy saftey cultures and happy employies into the market. To the poor crews who's lives he plays with to make the news I sincerily hope you find employement with the airlines that will fill the void.

[stormin norman]

For once i agree with MOL.The UK taxes are driving away customers at all airlines at an alarming rate.

Whilst admitting Ryanair has opened up a new breed of customers, has these new day trippers /week enders now started to desert the airline they once built up ?

Dan Air and the likes could chop 30% of its flights by parking their already paid for aircraft at Lasham

Where are Ryanair going to park theirs ?

[Rainboe]

Should we paint on our planes 'Bye Bye Ryanair'?

It's become so awful positioning crews around on Ryanair we have stopped using them altogether. Nightmare.

[Skipness One Echo]

Right. Given the fact that BA is effectively closing most of its services apart from at LHR then BA is no longer an option for the majority of people in the UK.

The majority of the UK is in the South East where BA is a real option. You're mixing up area with population.

[Rainboe]

Isn't it at times like this MOL paints messages on his planes? Time for other airlines at Stansted to paint 'Bye Bye Ryanair!' in BIG letters.

What goes around comes around!

[eu01]

Now the planes are just grounded showing that the true reason is no demand anywhere. Well how come Ryanair havnt opened a huge base in any of these countries recently? No Demand - simple explanation.Ryanair it's the airline of the numerous missed opportunities. It's suffering as a result the firm's own strategy fixed on cost reduction only. No demand? Blame it on nobody else but their own policies.

Without any doubt, they've made a tremendous work to achieve the low cost base. They made a great (albeit controversial) work negotiating with the airports, stoke good deals with them, have succeeded in keeping costs low across the board. Having ace up their sleeve they simply forgot something. Long ago, FR should have start thinking more about the needs of their customers.

Technically, for pax the cost reduction means nothing (how it's been achieved). Pax will look for a carrier that is not only cheap, but also kind of... more subtle, friendly, providing more versatile connections all over the continent (to give pax opportunity to travel where they want, not FR), sympathetic, caring. While the final ticket price does mean much, it shouldn't be the only reason to travel. It doesn't cost so much to use some other marketing tools, they cannot be neglected. The magic of cheapness is not enough to fill the planes, many people would love to fly inexpensively, but are unable to accept this kind of cheap propaganda and general attitudes offered by FR.

The demand is weak nowadays, true. The war between carriers to get more pax in spite of market stagnation cannot rely on low prices alone. In fact, such extremely one-sided policy seemingly diminishes the carrier's prospects. Ryanair still could grow, but a radical face-lifting operation is required.

[JW411]

You could equally say that the skids are under BA. Are any of you out there actually brave enough to buy BA shares right now in any serious quantity? My investment managers have told me not to touch BA shares with a barge pole.

Sadly, I think they are on the slippery slope.

[potkettleblack]

Ah times are tough alright. Why not throw in another extra month of unpaid leave as well. All hands to the pumps boys. As "Europes highest paying airline" I am sure the lads won't mind stumping up for their command training to help MOL through this little rough patch. Although I am not quite sure how the bank manager will feel. What with the Oxford integrated fees and another 30k on top for the type rating and the possibility of a lean spell then the prospect of a bad credit rating could be looming. Never fear though we are all hoping for the best for you guys and gals.

[pwalhx]

According to the 2001 census 8 million people in the South East and 7 million in London so out of a poulation of 60 million i believe thats is a quarter, hardly a majority.

[45989]

WTSS The name says it all!

[CabinCrewe]

by why let that get in the way of a good story...

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

It is very easy to pick out certain obvious explanations for the current demand weakness afflicting products such as those offered by Ryanair. Government taxes, airport development fees, security hassles, environmental impact concerns, worries about the economy/unemployment, actual reduction in personal incomes, and so on. But I would suggest that the high awareness of these particular factors (and I would not wish to underplay their importance in any way) is obscuring another major reason for the drop in demand.

Companies such as Ryanair attract significant 'VFR' [Visiting Friends & Relations] traffic (which should hold up), a healthy proportion of the (declining) migrant workers market, and afew business travelers. But a key proportion of the sector is comprised of people who travel purely for leisure: to enjoy a holiday, whether in the form of a short break or two weeks in the Med. The crucial factor here is that the customers must actually ENJOY the travel experience if they are to become a reliable source of repeat business. These trips are discretionary and that has become a real problem.

Increasingly, customers are NOT ENJOYING their short break / vacation experience when traveling with no-frills carriers. Rightly or wrongly, they feel hacked off / cheated by the booking process with large hidden charges appearing at all stages, and devious website tricks which insert insurance, baggage and seat selection charges (which have to be individually deselected again). Then come the shocking credit card charges (per person)! At check-in (another fee) they face confrontation instead of the friendly welcome of years past. Service with a snarl, more charges for excess/outsize baggage (at usurious rates), and a 'fine' for forgetting to print a boarding card etc. We could argue that these charges are avoidable and the passengers "should have known", and that all is fair. But the customers' opinion is unequivocal: "We've just been ripped off ... big time!"

Next they must endure the treat that is 2009 airport security. Queues, resealable plastic bags (£1 each, please!), shoe x-rays, searches, confiscations of shampoo/toothpaste etc (which the passengers perceive as utterly ridiculous). So they arrive - stressed and harassed - in the departure lounge. Perhaps they then nip into an airport shop to purchase a gift or a snack for their flight. Then to gate.

More confrontation therapy. The gift/snack you bought doesn't fit within your one bag! Leave it behind or pay a punitive fee for your bag to be stowed in the hold. Then finally they can join the rugby-scrum boarding experience for those knee-shredding seats! And if they're really lucky - having paid £10 extra to be in the first 90 passengers to board (!!!!!), they may find themselves crushed at the back of a standing-room only bus to a remote stand, co-mingling with their more tight-walleted brethren. Then all they have to cope with is the relentless noise pollution onboard with those childish announcements and irritating commercials.

We in the industry can - and on these discussion boards, often do - justify all these components. Well its cheap, after all (or is it?). But what the customer takes away is the memory of a DEEPLY UNPLEASANT experience. And this travel was purchased as part of a *FUN* weekend away?

The industry must accept that a significant proportion of the travelers who have experienced all this are simply not coming back. Many people I know who have healthy salaries, no economic worries and high disposable incomes are telling me exactly this: they no longer enjoy the short-break holiday by air (and have stopped buying). They are opting for upmarket hotels in the UK, or ferry/Eurostar based trips. And they are LIKING what they have found / re-discovered.

The Ryanair model has been so successful in attracting travelers in the past based purely on the lowest displayed price that most of their major competitors have been forced (or willingly chose) to adopt the same practices. Whether it is BMI Baby, FlyBe, EasyJet, Jet2, hey - even Monarch, these insidious hidden charges and check-in confrontations now prevail across the board. Many key leisure routes no longer offer any quality choice which more affluent customers consider civilised. They aren't compelled to purchase travel (some property-owners excepted) - so just maybe they won't bother. Why book a 'pleasure' trip which is a source of fear, hassle and apprehension? Gone are the days of "looking forward" to the hols.

"Weekend in Prague, Dear?"

"Hell, no thanks. Let's just go back to that nice hotel we found in the Lake District!"

It isn't just the economy which is grounding all those 737's.

All comments and observations welcome. SHED.

[cyfarthfa]

Shed,
Couldn't agree with you more. Just retrurned from a trip to Italy to visit my daughter. Flight was by EasyJet from Bristol which was fine, but the airport hastle was a nightmare, both in the UK and in Italy. My wife's comment was " Last time we fly, next time we will drive down and make it part of our holidays" . How many others feel the same way?

[handsfree]

Shed, absolutely agree. Only thing I would add, is that it would be nice to return to the airport you thought you were going to and on the day you thought you were going. (bmibaby, that was for you).

[davidjohnson6]

I fly for leisure with Ryanair a lot (over 20 times so far this year) and continue to make new bookings. However, I'm finding myself refusing to pay FR the kind of money which they will need to make a profit.

Dublin return for £2 ? Yes, I'll have that. Dublin return for £20 ? No, that's too expensive
Return trip to Taiwan for £500 in November - yes, I'll have that.

Offer me a flight on EZY and I find myself rather more willing to spend some money. than RYR. I'm not quite sure what RYR are doing wrong, but when value perceptions end up like this, it can't bode well for profitability

[LTNman]

Headline ticket prices might be low but it's that feeling of being ripped off that is putting a nail in the Ryanair coffin. £10 credit card fees and being charged £5 to print off a compulsory boarding card on your own printer is doing them no favours. It puts me off from flying Ryanair. It wasn’t so long ago that I checked on their prices to Prestwick. Out of all the airlines flying London to Glasgow they came out the dearest for a late booking.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Shed.

I think it's wishful thinking that people are going to desert the sun destinations to freeze in the Lake District with nothing to do for the kids.

I went to Palma end of May with Jet2 and enjoyed the flight and the holiday, going to Benidorm on Monday and looking forward to some sun.

cyfarthfa.

If you enjoy your flight, yet can't stand the hassle of the airport - With respect you IMO should find some other mode of transport that will be stress free for you.

I remember my first flight form MAN to AGP and it was a nightmare, but over time you just take it in your stride things like the shuttle buses after a 3 hour flight.

As for Ryanairs plight - I notice yet again it's everyones fault but the MOL ex empire.

Won't be long before no frills airlines are as busy as ever, I remember well my last UK holiday to Pontings in 2004 (I think), and I had to get dressed in the middle of the night to keep warm.

That's the problem with UK holidays, to wet - to cold, unless you are very lucky - Folks just won't put up with that year in and year out.

[Phileas Fogg]

We'll be getting somewhere when Ryanair disappear by 100% and not before!

[321abc]

RyanAir cut flights at Stanstead! (http://5826f72c.zxxo.net)

Another Article.

[mickyman]

Fogg

'We'll be getting somewhere when Ryanair disappear by 100% and not before!'

I am sure the thousands of crew employed by the airline and the millions of passengers will appreciate your comment.

MM

[super737]

To the above posts,

Ryanair are one if not the main catalyst that have helped greatly in reducing air fares. £2 to dublin is acceptable but £20 isn't????? How tight fisted. I very much doubt you would choose a higher fare on the same route with another airlines that ryanair competes with if £20 is too expensive!:ugh:

At the end of the day other airlines are trying to do what ryanair are doing. KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.

Name me one airline who doesn't have any over inflated booking fees or fuel surcharges?? Forward bookings are holding up well, and more and more business passengers are utilising ryanair due to the lower cost.

Another point comparing Dan Air parking planes at Lasham and ryanair giving the tractors a break is comparing oranges to apples. Where are Dan Air now?

FR are still profitable its only that Aer Lingus are losing money and status rapidly and FR made a sensible decision in writing down the value.

"The thousands of crew and millions of passengers agree." What? Crew are actually thankful of a job. Aspiring pilots and pilots made redundant are actually thankful of being able to fly new jets with a variety whilst gaining good experience.

[mickyman]

super737

If you are going to quote me then dont mis-qoute me!!

MM

[Ernest Lanc's]

super737,

Ryanair have brought heaps of trouble on themselves with their obsession with the lowest possible cost no matter what.

MOL blames the airports, yet airports have to have revenue to pay staff and keep the places maintained. MOL expects airports to pay him for the privilege of FR flying using the place.

Not content with objecting to landing fees et al, he ran out of BLK because they introduced an ADF, rather than raise landing charges.

All the budget airlines have backdoor fees, and FR are not an exception, airlines that boast they are the lowest, and slag of the opposition, find it hard to raise prices when it really matters.

[apaul]

I really doubt Ryanair is picking up much business traffic. It does not fly the right routes and its fare conditions are less flexible than Easyjet.

[mickyman]

Ernest

So how is Blackpool doing without Ryanair these days?

A genuine question.

MM

[Ernest Lanc's]

MM

Pax is obviously down since Ryanair left, The Dublin route is now served by Aer Arran. Pity FR abandoned the Girona route because of an ADF that did not concern or affect FR.

Jet2 are supporting Blackpool with a promise of an extra a/c based there 2010.

PAX numbers are holding up well on existing routes, so Jet2 will continue their support.

It looked better when FR were at BLK, but BB are looking for alternative carriers, and if Exeter is anything to go by, they will succeed.

[davidjohnson6]

super737 - I don't object to paying £20 to go to Dublin. However, after seeing so many promotions of "Fly for £1" from Ryanair, it becomes almost an expectation that I should be paying just £1 to fly to Dublin. If I'm being charged £10, chances are that a new promotion will appear in the not too distant future, and I'll get my £1 trip then.

The issue is therefore that when Ryanair quotes a price on their website, it no longer has credibility with me, especially as the prices have such a tendency to oscillate wildly in the few months before the flight. Relentless "fly for £1" advertising has now trained me to expect to pay only £1 and to feel that I'm overpaying at £10.

Conversely, Easyjet and others do not make these dramatic offers, and I expect that the price of any seat will, barring minor fluctuations - maybe a few pounds here or there, steadily increase over the future, thus incentivising me to make the booking now rather than paying a higher price in the future.

[super737]

So would you not say that they will appreciate the comment does equal to agree otherwise they would not appreciate it? Why would crew agree with that anti FR posting? They are on good money and treated fairly!

So you obviously agree/appreciate the anti ryanair post saying we will get somewhere when FR disappear 100% otherwise you wouldn't have quoted!

[Phileas Fogg]

mickyman,

If the call for the routes are there then the passengers will travel with, and the crews will be employed by, perhaps a more profound operator than Ryanair.

Every number of years the industry turns around, 30 years ago it might not have been imaginable to realise a British airline industry, not that Ryanair are British, without the likes of BCal, Laker, Dan Air, Air Europe, Orion, Britannia etc. etc. etc. but guess what?

The airline industry exists without them and it will exist even better without the likes of Ryanair!

[45989]

So the spotters have realised ryr is shortly to be toast!
Not really news

[davidjohnson6]

45989 - I think the description of Ryanair as shortly to be toast is probably exaggerating just a little !

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi Ernest Lancs (and all),

Thankyou for your feedback. Clearly, I must agree with you that holidays in the Lake District are not for everyone, but that rather misses my wider point. To illustrate my example I mentioned the Lake District in this case (which has some very popular "wellness" type luxury hotels these days). I am in no way suggesting that a young family with a taste for Benidorm would choose this particular alternative. But it is a single example amongst many. If you prefer, substitute Cornwall, Jersey, Bournemouth, Brittany, the Norfolk Broads or any of thousands of destinations which are easily reached without the ordeal of the modern no-frills flight. Some of these would suit the beach holiday customers which you chose for your own example.

But I accept that those loyal to the Costas are the ones who are most likely to grit their teeth and put up with the no-frills experience. However, my posting was not singling out Costas sunworshippers any more than the element who would enjoy the Lake District luxury product. Far more vulnerable to the backlash against no-frills sharp practices are the citybreak destinations which are chosen not for their sunshine hours but for a cultural experience. Many of these are very easily substituted for attractive alternatives closer to home within range of car / ferry / rail travel.

I am not for a moment suggesting that demand for no frills flying is heading for extinction - far from it - but I do note that a growing proportion of the market is calling time on travel by ordeal. Who in their right mind is going to invest time and money in a vacation which they believe they will not enjoy? The no-frills sector has alienated far too many affluent regular travelers to be complacent about this problem.

You say that it is 'wishful thinking' that travelers with kids are going to desert sunshine destinations for the Lake District. I agree entirely, but must politely point out to you that I never suggested anything of the sort! And please don't believe for a moment that I 'wish' for the public to desert the airline industry. On the contrary, I work in this industry as do many of my friends and I would love to see it thrive again. Indeed, it is for this reason that those of us who do care about the airline industry must face up to this cancerous issue head on. If we routinely offend, rip off and disrespect our customer base we risk alienating a whole generation of consumers, stripping away their aspirations to experience the buzz of short-haul air vacations.

This is our industry. If we care about its future, we must lance the boils and not let our customer base fall out of love with our airlines and airports. The status quo of rip-offs and con-tricks cannot continue unchallenged if we want a successful and prosperous future. Denial is not an option. Who is brave enough to start treating our customers like real human beings again? And who dares to continue burying their heads in the sand, pretending that our customers will forever continue to show up for serial muggings and heated confrontations in the name of a cheap headline ticket price?

We must return to offering products which the traveling public will aspire to buy from us, and subsequently reflect upon with fond memories. If we are content to hack them off and pretend that this makes for a great business model, then many readers of PPRuNe would be well advised to study the finer points of burger-flipping in readiness for their next career progression.

Cheers, SHED.

[Noxegon]

Ryanair are one if not the main catalyst that have helped greatly in reducing air fares. £2 to dublin is acceptable but £20 isn't????? How tight fisted. I very much doubt you would choose a higher fare on the same route with another airlines that ryanair competes with if £20 is too expensive!

I'm not the original poster - and I live in Dublin, so it's a bad example - but there are routes where I will fly for €1 on Ryanair, but if they're any more than that I'd rather pay €40 to fly Aer Lingus instead.

[burble]

super 737, don't rationalize the accounts. Fr are loss making. more money went out than came in. It is irrelevant what that money was spent on. The share price of Aer Lingus does not reflect its worth as it is locked with no free board and minuscule trading volumes. Fr constructed this scenario and are therefore entirely responsible for their own loss.But what we see here is an entirely more significant turn of events. As has been hypothesis on this forum for about 8 months the Fr model has been unraveling. Fr momentum has sustained for period of time while the rumors circulated but now the true extent of Fr's woes is being exposed. Massive overcapacity, dwindling demand, tarnished brand image, I have grave concerns for Fr's long term viability. The product must change but that will involve a cost base hike but who would support that at currant levels of traffic. How are they going to pay for all this grounded capacity let alone all the new aircraft arriving fro Boeing? This really could be it. Dare I say it "the emperor has no clothes!". Racedo can you still find merit in this increasingly unstable pyramid?

[45989]

DJ . I see you don't mind £20 to fly to Dubiln. Fair enough.
Any idea what it costs for a taxi into the city?
More than your alleged airfare (excluding all the hidden charges) Never mind the whinging about gov travel taxes.
If 10 euros colours one's plans....
STAY AT HOME
The business model is toast.

ryr could never make the transition to the only really successful loco
model (Southwest) now as the entrenched " lets Sh1t on them again" attitude to customers and staff will never change

Burble, Spot on. But be careful about using the "R" Seems to upset evil eyes

[Phileas Fogg]

(Name me one airline who doesn't have any over inflated booking fees or fuel surcharges?? Forward bookings are holding up well, and more and more business passengers are utilising ryanair due to the lower cost.0

super737,

Not here to commercially advertise but try the national carrier of Switzerland by booking via their own website.

A number of times last year I need to travel from BHX to FCO and/or MXP, my business was actually in FCO & MXP. BMIBaby had direct flights BHX/FCO/BHX but, to MXP, whichever LoCo it was only operated to BGY, nowhere near where I actually wanted to be.

Well flights on the carrier already hinted at, to/from FCO, were cheaper than Baby and, I cannot recall precisely, a similar fare to Milan except that I was actually flying to my destination and for the same, or less, fares than LoCo's I was getting a complimentary meal or snack, tea or coffee, beer for each sector, an impeccible level of service and I was actually getting duty frees for transitting outside of the EU!

Why do so many people have it in their heads that, so called, LoCo's MUST be cheaper?

[befree]

Ryanairs decline is going to be a long and slow retreat. Its a bit like the rise and fall of an empire. It has run out of new markets in invade and the old markets are showing signs of decline. Everyone in essex has now been to Lubeck as much as they wish.

A weak pound will be killing travel from the UK to the Euro zone. A lot less people will be able to fly so often to 2nd homes or for weekend breaks. Those traveling for buisness will also be cutting back. Ryanair will be mothballing lots of new planes.

next week the first quarter results should be out on the 27th. It is likely to show the downturn is taking a big bite out revenue.

[Sober Lark]

Ryanair's ridiculous charges combined with the current state of affairs have probably pushed consumers to the limit. Someone in there doesn't know all these extra straws add up and are showing signs of breaking the poor camel's back.

[racedo]

Fr are loss making. more money went out than came in. It is irrelevant what that money was spent on. The share price of Aer Lingus does not reflect its worth as it is locked with no free board and minuscule trading volumes.

EI is heavily loss making with a highly unionised workforce where change is slow and changes to conditions cost lots of money. EI forecast it would pay €120Million or 20% of its cash out to implement the reduction in its workforce agreed last year and it still has a high cost base that must be tackled. EI is worth little at this present moment because any further changes are spending huge amounts of cash it can ill afford and it is hugely loss making.

Massive overcapacity, dwindling demand, tarnished brand image, I have grave concerns for Fr's long term viability. The product must change but that will involve a cost base hike but who would support that at currant levels of traffic. How are they going to pay for all this grounded capacity let alone all the new aircraft arriving fro Boeing? This really could be it. Dare I say it "the emperor has no clothes!". Racedo can you still find merit in this increasingly unstable pyramid?

IF all FR's future growth was premeditated from UK then you would have a fair point but that is not the case as the expansion over the last year has been predominantley focused in rest of Europe. One only has to look at the airlines no longer operating in Italy and Spain to realise there are substantial opportunities there.

Everyone is writing the demise of FR, just like they have been doing for the last number of years, wonder what kind of a reduction we will see from other airlines, then again BA shutting or moving huge number of routes from Gatwick recently got 3/4 comments.

[45989]

I hate to say it but pissing in the wind comes to mind. Reality means less punters AND they are fed up being ripped off by the pikey

[mickyman]

45989

Southwest is a domestic airline so not that comparible.

Fogg

To pick on Ryanair in a recession is perhaps deflecting
the spotlight from full service airlines and how they are
doing ie: BA.

super737

If you own a dictionary look up the word 'Irony/Ironic'


MM

[F14]

I always find the views of some of the anti-Ryan posters on here amusing. :}

Maybe it is because they are mostly British and only see the would from a UK point of view. This is probably why Ryanair, being Irish has been so successful over the last decade.

They expanded into the EU market while the economic party was going on. Now they have Very Strong presence in overseas markets, ie Spain and Italy, where up to now the Legacy Carriers had enjoyed an almost monopoly position.

One only has to sit on the ramp in CAG or BGY or CIA and see the thousands of Italian passengers boarding to understand, Ryanair is the right airline in the right place at the right time. The people have a desire to travel at the lowest prices.

The posters on here think that taking chavs from EMA to ALC is the only type of customer? Most Latin ryanair routes have people traveling for business, to second homes, to visit relatives and school trips are very popular.

In fact I spent a very pleasant flight from HHN-STN some years ago as a pax. Next to me where 3 USAF pilots, traveling to their F15 simulator recurrent in Laken Heath. :eek:

Personally I think the bloodbath is about to start. All airlines are looking to Ryanair to see how much they make or lose. Because only airlines or businesses with the lowest costs will survive.

[45989]

MM
A reasonable point.
I've traveled with both, chalk and cheese is the kindest interpretation
one could arrive at.
ryr is in geographical terms a minnow
Yes Southwest is a US domestic carrier but their spread is bigger
AND A SMILE COMES FREE

[eu01]

I fly for leisure with Ryanair a lot and continue to make new bookings. However, I'm finding myself refusing to pay FR the kind of money which they will need to make a profit.
I'm not quite sure what RYR are doing wrong, but when value perceptions end up like this, it can't bode well for profitability It's because FR have EDUCATED people to do so. Flying MUST be cheap, so why would I pay 30 euros for something I can pay just 5, with a little luck, later maybe? If I'll have to pay one-hundred, I'll better choose BA or LH instead.

What FR is doing, it's a kind of negative (from their point of view) selection of their customers. Nothing against Ryanair pax. They are simply smart enough to avoid paying much for their tickets. Good for them, not good for the carrier. Many of potential (and so needed) NEW customers will resign during the booking process as they cannot understand why the promised price have risen so much before the credit card is to be charged.
Well its cheap, after all (or is it?). But what the customer takes away is the memory of a DEEPLY UNPLEASANT experience. And this travel was purchased as part of a *FUN* weekend away?
The industry must accept that a significant proportion of the travelers who have experienced all this are simply not coming back. True, for a substantial amount of people.
The product must change Obviously. The most problematic is the brand image change. It's actually pretty reliable airline (really!), but has made quite a substantial effort to make people believe it is a crappy one. Without any doubt, these unfavourable beliefs/impressions caused by an idiotic ”propaganda” style and wrong attitudes towards pax or some establishments need to be converted. Regrettably, the efforts to fix that can prove costly.

Other changes, however, need not to cost much. Like re-shaping the schedules.
Very reluctant to offer connecting flights? It's a baseless fear, preventing FR from achieving better load factors and yields. But even without any official connecting flights they do realize how many pax actually uses them spontaneously. Why not help them by improving the schedules, making ”home-made” connections more suitable and logical.
Everyone in Essex has now been to Lubeck as much as they wish Well, people from Essex have dozens of other destinations to choose from. People from, say, Salzburg, have just one (STN). That's why the point-to-point system in its original form is becoming obsolete.
Increasingly, customers are NOT ENJOYING their short break / vacation experience when traveling with no-frills carriers. Rightly or wrongly, they feel hacked off / cheated by the booking process with large hidden charges appearing at all stages, and devious website tricks which insert insurance, baggage and seat selection charges (which have to be individually deselected again). Then come the shocking credit card charges (per person)(...) As I mentioned before, it's also easy to fix. A parallel website offering reverse-pyramid booking system (initial price dropping).

But after all. Having hundreds of improvements in mind, I have also my own, well-paid job. So try to invent a bit more yourself, dear FR.

[racedo]

Yes Southwest is a US domestic carrier but their spread is bigger

Fuuny that

Southwest operates from 68 Airports, Countries served 1, 448 connections, 546 aircraft (make that 545 after the new window in the roof last week), average length of route 846 miles, 101 million passengers carried or 182,000 per aircraft, languages required 2.

Ryanair operates from 149 Airports, Countries served 25, 888 connections, 196 aircraft (latest), average length of route 749 miles, 60 million passengers carried or 306,000 per aircraft, languages required 20 plus.

Why let facts get in the way of your bias.

[45989]

I must have missed the point.
Less than 200 A/C and loss making ????? ryr

Happy staff and a good reputation. Southwest
Different world

[racedo]

Ryanair made an operational profit of €105 Million excluding exceptional write down of Shareholding in EI which has no impact on Cash

Southwest made operational profit of $178 Million and had no write downs but they have just announced at half year they made a loss in 2009.

[mickyman]

racedo/45989

Interesting figures:

Southwest 546 a/c 101m passengers
Ryanair 196 a/c 60m passengers

MM

[Phileas Fogg]

mickyman,

I'm not picking on anybody, I'm merely speaking my opinion based on my 30 years in the industry, recession or not my opinion of FR has remained the same for many years and my opinion of FR is a slight improvement upon my opinion of BA.

And as for F14's naive comment (above), we are not all cheapskates, he claims that only the airlines with the lowest costs will survive, what bullsh1t.

The airlines that offer a quality of service combined with maintaining costs to a minimum are likely to be the ones that prosper and I do not regard being boarded like cattle from pens, seat backs that do not recline, rip off prices for stale sandwiches and warm beer a quality of service, I regard it as a bl00dy disgrace.

Call me old fashioned, and I am not alone, but when I travel I will shop around, online, for the best price combined with the best flight times, I like to check-in online whilst selecting my seat number, without being charged extra, I like to arrive at my most convenient airport, a hastle free check-in of baggage, a stress free boarding of the aircraft to my seat and a nice pleasant cabin service, in a seat that reclines, whilst relaxing with an inclusive meal and drink and these levels of service are not provided by any of the LoCo's, not just FR.

[F14]

PF,

Sorry I can only count 22 years in the industry. Maybe you could name one of this high class airlines, that you would travel on tomorrow?

I hear Privatair in Switzerland are very good.

[bigdaviet]

Although its fair to say that there are passengers out there who have a bad experience and then vow never to fly with the likes of ryr,ezy etc. again, they are way outnumbered by the millions around europe who understand how to work a simple booking process (albeit a little bit sneeky,) play the game and end up with a flight that is much cheaper than the alternative and more often than not more direct. I do not agree with all the hidden charges but the fact is even with all the charges the fare is usually much cheaper.

I've flown with a whole host of low cost airlines in the past few years including ryanair, baby, easy, flybe, aerlingus, germanwings etc.

Taking into account the factors that the vast majority (and not, it seems the minority on here,) of passengers care about like cost of the flight including all the extras, punctuality and reliability I have consistently found ryanair, easyjet and most of the others to be excellent.

Indeed even when something has gone wrong the experience has been far better than some I recall in years gone by when i've paid hundreds of pounds to fly with the 'flag carriers' including london (oh sorry, british,) airways through the absolute nightmare that is heathrow. Waiting weeks for your suitcase, damaged bags, delays that are consistently more frequent and longer, missing connections and almost always a much greater cost for the ticket.

[Phileas Fogg]

F14,

Please don't try putting words in to my mouth such as "high class", an airline, any airline, does not need to be high class to be better than FR or some other LoCo's, they just need to be above 'gutter' level.

Airlines that I will readily and happily, and often do, travel with are Swiss, Austrian/Tyrolean, KLM (except that they can be tight with the refreshments), Lufthansa (but they can be lacking in personality), Ukraine International, MALEV Hungarian, SAS etc. etc. etc.

And as for recent (all inclusive) round trip fares that I have recently paid, well LHR-VIE-LED-VIE-LHR was GBP156, BHX-ZRH-FCO-ZRH-BHX was circa GBP130 with BHX-ZRH-MXP-ZRH-BHX being circa GBP120.

[burble]

Ah get off the stage Racedo. Fr made a loss, a loss. More money went out the door than came in. More money is continuing to go out the door as we post. Expensive aircraft are flying low load/yield passengers around expensive airspace and the management continue to waste shareholder value on playing some bigus dikus competition with Aer Lingus. The bid has failed twice is now blocked and the 29% stake Fr has built up stops any upward speculation. It lost all those millions playing a game it did not understand therefore Racedo, Fr are a loss making outfit. Ryanair losses money. Ryanair plc had more money at the start of the year than at the end. Stop defending the indefensible.

[Aisle2c]

It must be said that Ryanair don't help themselves wrt the PR game. By being the loud one, in order to get all the free publicity, they create a negative attitude towards themselves (outside of fares). If the airfares are all in the same ballpark, people will choose other factors when deciding who to fly with.

As it is, I booked an EI flight for 93 euro all in to LHR, rather than a 40 euro FR flight to STN because as well as the extra 20-30 euro for the train to Lpl Street, I feel more welcome on the EI flight at the time of booking. It brings to mind the old saying "be nice to the people on the way up, as you might meet them on the way down" !!!

[45989]

Racedo. What planet are you on?
I suspect even in Blue and Yellowland your slant on things would be taken with a very large pinch of salt these days

[bigdaviet]

Expensive aircraft are flying low load/yield passengers around expensive airspace and the management continue to waste shareholder value on playing some bigus dikus competition with Aer Lingus. The bid has failed twice is now blocked and the 29% stake Fr has built up stops any upward speculation. It lost all those millions playing a game it did not understand therefore Racedo, Fr are a loss making outfit. Ryanair losses money. Ryanair plc had more money at the start of the year than at the end. Stop defending the indefensible.

Expensive aircraft - Not really when considered in relative terms.

Low Load - Definitely Not.
Low Yield - Possibly.

Expensive Airspace - Possibly but the airports being flown to are certainly not.

"bigus dikus competition with Aer Lingus." - Possibly.

Fr are a loss making outfit.
Debatable, without the money lost through the aerlingus 'exercise' a profit was actually made by the business.

(Edited to change my response to the loss making quote.)

[racedo]

Ah get off the stage Racedo. Fr made a loss, a loss. More money went out the door than came in.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/about/invest/docs/2009/q4_2009_doc.pdf

Have a look at Page 7 as that is the one that shows how much cash in and out of the business and there was more cash IN than OUT.

[racedo]

Racedo. What planet are you on?
I suspect even in Blue and Yellowland your slant on things would be taken with a very large pinch of salt these daysBack to the personal stuff YET AGAIN are we. Least you are consistent.

[45989]

As always, you miss the point

LOOK at the BIG PICTURE

BTW. Nothing personal!

[racedo]

you do nothing else but get personal which is a real pity as you have good points but keep going down the petty personal stage.

[bigdaviet]

As always, you miss the point

LOOK at the BIG PICTURE



Which picture? I suspect you're referring to the picture painted by some on this forum which is mostly wild speculation and unproven nonsense.

I don't think I'll be posting here again!

[45989]

Bigdaviet
Your choice. Everyone here is entitled to their own point of view:)

[Ernest Lanc's]

Bigdaviet

Stick it out and argue your point when you think you are right, everyone has an opinion so argue yours:ok:.

[INKJET]

I am no fan of Ryanair, but not because of what they offer, rather that their position in the market is now so strong that lots of other airline have followed them down market and i don't just mean price, the problem is for many is that it leaves a bad taste, one only has to watch the police trying to defuse some situation where and ordinary Joe has blown his stack beacuse Ryanair want to charge him £30 to bring on board the oversized piece of Chocolate that he has bought his Daughter in the terminal, in the longer term this puts people of travelling

The other thing is that the Goverment have watched MOL build up 60m paxs or what ever and thought com on Darling we will have some of that, who knows where it will end?

If you take the name away (Ryanair) and talk about a modern fleet of aircraft that fly's to many of the places you want or need to go to and more than afew you've never heard of that are 99% on time and have 99%+ despatch rate it should be a good business to be in? sure the passenger would like a little (or a lot) more TLC but they have yet to demonstrate that they are willing to pay for it? until someone comes along with with a viable alternative that has a lower seat cost per Km then i don't see it, Jet2 must be close with the 757 given their wage cost, but that won't work on every route and not every small airport can handle a 757 unless they find a way of putting airstais on them!!!

[Jippie]

A lot of people here say the market is getting saturated. I don't know. But what gets my attention is the fact that Ryanair is so much bigger in the UK and Ireland then in the rest of Europe. Imagine that Ryanair was so big on the continent as they are on the isles, if you view it like that it seems there's ample space for growth?

[Phileas Fogg]

In response to Jippie's post, and to use Germany as an example, there are a number of German Loco's operating to/from mainstream airports such as CGN and DUS, meanwhile there's an Irish tin pot operator operating to/from a village airfield named Hahn!

Last year I needed to get a guy from DUS or CGN area to FCO and back, I checked the LoCo's from Dus, CGN etc. and guess who the lowest cost of the carriers was? ..... Swiss from DUS!

[davidjohnson6]

Jippie - there are a lot more people living in cold, grey and wet northern Europe wanting to visit warm, sunny and dry southern Europe for a weekend - Sicily for a weekend is more appealing to a resident of Dusseldorf compared to the reverse.

Furthermore, northern Europe (UK, Netherlands, Germany) tend to have greater disposable income compared to other parts of Europe and can thus afford those weekend trips away.

All this implies that an LCC is, all other things being equal, often better off basing more (but not all) of its fleet in NW Europe, than elsewhere

[Jippie]

davidjohnson6; you support my point. There's more in Northern Europe then the UK&Ireland for example Scandinavia, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands.
Let's compare the number of based aircraft in a country and the number of inhabitants, not the best comparison but it will give you an idea.

UK: 75 based planes, 1 per 0,82 million people.
Ireland: 23 based planes, 1 per 0,26 million people.
Norway: 0 based planes, but that's not an EU country.
Sweden: 6 based planes, 1 per 1,54 million people.
Finland: 0 based planes, Why?
Denmark: 0 based planes, Why?
Germany: 20 based planes, 1 per 4,10 million people.
Belgium: 8 based planes, 1 per 1,33 million people.
Netherlands: 0 based planes, only because of a night curfew at Eindhoven?

The difference is huge, when we compare the UK and Germany for example we see that Germany has 5 times less based planes per million people. While I think both markets are pretty similar, wealthy countries, not much inbound tourism, and healthy LCC competition(EasyJet, BmiBaby and a lot of charter airlines in the UK and the likes of EasyJet, Germanwings and TUIfly in Germany)

[TSR2]

Where are the other 64 aircraft based.

[Phileas Fogg]

I would suggest that Germany has less based planes because the Germans consider Frankfurt/Hahn as much of a joke as the rest of us do!

There's only so many people that want to travel from a village that's in the middle of nowhere.

[MUFC_fan]

Spain and Italy I would guess.

[Jippie]

Let's include the non Northern European countries which have Ryanair bases then.

Spain: 26 based aircraft, 1 per 1,79 million people.
France: 4 based aircraft, 1 per 16,27 million people, but that's probably because the Irish contracts are still in French court.
Italy: 29 based aircraft, 1 per 2,07 million people.

[Skipness One Echo]

There are a mass of very different cultures across the continent, many of whom whilst welcoming low fares and competition do NOT go for the "cheaps as chips and eff off when things go wrong" approach taken by Ryanair in the same way we do.
Aside from the fact that we in the UK take air travel in the same way that some people do crack......

[davidjohnson6]

Aside from the fact that we in the UK take air travel in the same way that some people do crack......

Just one more shot, that's all I want, just one more shot. I'm not an addict - I could stop whenever I liked. I just post on PPRuNe because I like the name of the website

[super737]

Irony? Is it that this airline which alot of posters here don't like, yet they the flying harp is still growing and helping the economy? Is it that pro EI supporters can't help but throw mud knowing that very soon those scarebuses are out and Aer Laughable i mean Aer Lingus will be slapped on the side of a 737-8AS?

EI shares did effect the financial performance. Passengers are voting on their feet so why is it that forward bookings on routes are up? Why is it that those EI pilots who turned investors now need to give a bit of dough to the banks, is it that those pesky shares aren't performing well in an airline that is losing blood pressure?

[Phileas Fogg]

super737,

I have travelled with KLM, on and off, for years and there came a time that I was travelling KBP to AMS with KLM except that I was ticketed with Ukraine International on a codeshare with KLM.

Despite travelling economy I had been entitled to UIA's business class lounge in KBP and had fallen out of there before departure with an intact bottle of beer in my pocket ..... as one does :)

When KLM came round with the trolley I asked for a beer only to have it explained to me that they no longer served alcohol in economy and despite there being a 'party' going on the other side of the curtain in business class.

With that I asked for just the plastic cup and, thereafter, poured and drank the one beer I had brought with me only to be 'bollocked' by the F/A for daring to consume alcohol in their economy class!

Had I been travelling with UIA, and I know the tricks, providing that I had ordered Slavutich beer the crew would be so complimented that I wanted to drink Ukrainian beer I could have had as many as I liked.

After that KLM experience not only did I boycott KLM but I wrote a complaint to UIA that if they are to codeshare then don't codeshare with such tin pot outfits as KLM etc.

When I eventually, through lack of choice, returned to KLM they had reintroduced alcohol in to economy class, in informal conversation with one of their stewards he had told me that bookings had been so down since the withdrawal of alcohol that KLM had been forced in to reintroducing it.

Likewise for FR, they can treat their customers like cattle, charge 7p or 8p per minute to wait on a telephone for hours that may never be answered, rip us off for stale sandwiches and warm beer, charge us whatever for going to the loo, seat us in an uncomfortable and putrid coloured seat that don't recline, advertise that we are flying to a city that we are flying nowhere near to etc. but ..... don't expect us to be returning anytime soon!

I hasten to add I have only flown with FR once, well twice allowing for there and back, and that is because my ultimate destination was Vasteras where only FR fly to. It was so bad that when I needed to return to Vasteras a matter of weeks later I preferred to fly to ARN and surface transport it across to Vasteras.

[racedo]

I would suggest that Germany has less based planes because the Germans consider Frankfurt/Hahn as much of a joke as the rest of us do!

There's only so many people that want to travel from a village that's in the middle of nowhere.

With 3.9 Million passengers a year it dwarfs passenger numbers in Shannon, Cork, Turin, LCY.......some idea you have for a field though with 75,000 passengers a week.

[leeds 65]

Bloody hell Fogg , your standards are a bit high there.its a bloody seat for gods sake.You are in the minority anyway.Most people would stand if they got to there destination for free.

Its a bit like this -
1.You get a taxi home in a crap old ford car - 20 quid
2.You get a limo home - 60 quid

Yes the limo might be a 'nicer' experience , but most people would rather just get to there destination modestly and spend the money they saved on booze,gambling,clothes,accomodation,rental car,restaurants etc.

especially in this climate , people will be more tight with there cash.

I suppose you loved the good ole days when it was a couple of hundred quid to get over the irish sea,and enjoy a 'class' experience.And get your little goody bag with crayollas and fun packs for the kids,and a free pillow.Well im afraid in this day and age of high mortgages,double income families,social pressure( ' people view having 2 cars a necessity !'),mad inflation,food cost rising,car park fees,mad school fees,utility costs,hair cuts for the kids etc etc . People are not willing to harp back to those days.Basically the majority are willing to trade 'class' for much lower cost.And it isnt just the 'lower classes'.People of all backgrounds have the attitude - 'why pay 125 quid to get to stansted,when i can pay 70?'

Simple , unless your loaded.But even so,its the principle for many people - even the wealthy.why pay more when i can pay less???

[Aisle2c]

MOL stated about 4 years ago that he would be stepping down within 2 years, saying that people would be fed up of him at that stage and he had other plans. I think it might be a mistake that he didn't follow through with it. Ryanair are badly in need of a fresh outlook. I agree with much of what has been said wrt Ryanair's attitude towards its customers.

[Phileas Fogg]

leeds 65,

Whoever suggested that I would pay thrice the price for a comfortable ride rather than a shower of sh1te ride?

As I posted previously, I travelled LHR-VIE-LED-VIE LHR for an all inclusive, comfortable ride, fare of GBP156, that's circa 10 hours of flying at GBP15.60 per hour.

Not only that but, on the return, it was a Fokker 70 between LED and VIE that was only circa 25% full and, in banter with the cabin crew, they encoraged me in to an Austrian beer tasting experience, that 3 hour flight passed by and, I'm guessing, I went to the loo a number of times and, guess what, without being charged for it!

Now if I'm paying thrice the price then, anytime soon, you let me know when FR may be operating London to St. Petersburg for a fare, including all the extras including food and drink and going for a pee, of GBP52 (round trip) then please do let me know about it!

[davidjohnson6]

you let me know when FR may be operating London to St. Petersburg for a fare, including all the extras including food and drink and going for a pee, of GBP52 (round trip)Phileas - I know it's not quite the same, but FR don't fly to LED. As a close proxy I've flown round trips Stansted-Riga-Stansted for £33.26 in 2006 and Stansted-Tampere-Stansted for £38.89 in 2007, including all the miscellaneous charges stuff, with all flights being on a Saturday. And yes, it was all non-stop flights, with no need to go via somewhere else.

I suspect that as an Irish airline, Ryanair will have difficulty securing UK-Russia traffic rights any time soon, but I await the day when MOL pulls some kind of publicity stunt in central St Petersburg to advertise some new routes ! :}

[lfc84]

avoid the carges by using a visa electron, entropay or travelex pre paid card

[Phileas Fogg]

davidjohnson6,

Including all fresh food and, heated or chilled appropriately, drinks, internet check-in and seat allocation, a seat back that reclines, not being boarded as if we are cattle taking away our dignity, and multiple loo breaks?

[en2r]

I suspect that as an Irish airline, Ryanair will have difficulty securing UK-Russia traffic rights any time soon, but I await the day when MOL pulls some kind of publicity stunt in central St Petersburg to advertise some new routes !
Yes, currently Ryanair can only fly from Ireland to Russia (dependent on being granted traffic rights). Unless Russia agree an open skies agreement with the EU, or Ryanair set up a Russian subsidiary, it is unlikely they will ever be able to launch any routes from Russia to anywhere besides Dublin.

[Phileas Fogg]

Or a UK subsidiary?

What happened to 'London European', a LTN based operator, that FR bought out donkey's years ago, does one presume FR no longer own that company name?

But at least the Russians have some standards if they don't allow FR in :)

[Ametyst2]

I for one am pleased that you cannot recline seats on Ryanair flights. It only annoys the passenger behind and unless it is a long-haul flight (which Ryanair do not operate) then there is no real need to recline your seat!

[lfc84]

not if you're over 6ft

[racedo]

What happened to 'London European', a LTN based operator, that FR bought out donkey's years ago, does one presume FR no longer own that company name?

Wouldn't have an AOC would be first guess.

[Low Flier]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01447/matt22072009_1447677b.gif

[Phileas Fogg]

racedo,

In the early days EZY didn't have their own AOC, they operated under Air Foyle's AOC ..... So London European could operate under Ryanair's AOC!

[racedo]

In the early days EZY didn't have their own AOC, they operated under Air Foyle's AOC ..... So London European could operate under Ryanair's AOC!

But then would make it an Irish Airline so no flight to Russia from UK I am assumming unless cross country AOC's are valid.

[Phileas Fogg]

racedo,

It would not make it an Irish Airline, I knew of a Swedish operator operating under British World's AOC but it didn't make that Swedish operator British!

Whilst the operating aircraft might be Irish registered that would be nothing unusual, many airlines around the world have Irish registered aircaft within their fleets and without being denied traffic rights.

[racedo]

PF

Thanks for clarification. Guess would depend on what Russians saw as valid.

At this point in time I reckon there are lots more fish to fry that getting into Russia as too much hassle with Visas etc getting in and out to make it viable.

[Phileas Fogg]

racedo,

Getting a Russian visa is not a hastle, I got my most recent one in a 'same day' application but postal applications are not a problem however this is drifting off the subject whereas had Shower of ***** Air made an effort to provide any level of quality service on the routes, and the customers that may have come and gone, that they have already had then they might be in a position to maintain the frequency of services on those routes, never mind entering in to debate the feasibility of starting new route(s).

[eu01]

RussiansTo my knowledge, relatively many Russians already use FR services, driving their cars across the EU border, mostly to Latvia, Lithuania and Finland (as a starting point). The latter country has offered its Lappeenranta airport as a gate for Russians to the EU (the Russian border is just 10 km from EFLP). Ryanair did held some negotiations but no results so far. Lack of courage? :8

[Charlie Roy]

Even if Ryanair were to get permission to fly to Russia.

1. They need to find an airport they'd be happy to operate to and where they'd get charged almost zero fees.
2. The government would impose a minimum price stipulation on key routes. Example: St. Petersburg - London tickets cannot be cheaper than 200 euro
So it doesn't become interesting anymore for Ryanair to launch such a route.


ASIDE: MyAir
Italian airline MyAir
myair.com, vola a prezzi strepitosi in Italia ed Europa (http://www.myair.com/docs/cust/it/map.shtml)
has gone tits-up. Other airlines (like Ryanair, Easyjet, Alitalia, Wind Jet, Blue Air) in their markets are no doubt the only winners here :(

[MUFC_fan]

Example: St. Petersburg - London tickets cannot be cheaper than 200 euro


1. FR are not going to fly many routes outside of the EU from the UK - Morrocco is probably as far as it will go simply because of the above charge. Other bases will probably benefit more.

2. The ADP in the UK is £10 - I paid £2 last week for a flight to Dublin and back in September from Manchester.

[Just a spotter]

Here's one firmly from "the unsubstantiated rumours from non experts" file ...

I was in South Africa a few weeks back and "the world on the street" amongst the taxi and coach drivers we encountered was that Ryanair (most mentioned them by name, others said " a European Airline") were sending aircraft down there to provide the necessary capacity during the 2010 FIFA World Cup.

JAS

[Phileas Fogg]

Well when I flew LHR-VIE-LED-VIE-LHR ealier this year the fare was:

Price information:
Fare: GBP 39.0
Taxes and charges: GBP 117.6
Total: GBP 156.6

Now dividing the 4 sectors equally that would make the fare between LED and VIE £9.75.

So whoever has been dreaming that the Russians wouls stipulate a minimum fare of €200.00 or whatever?

[MUFC_fan]

UK-EC is no 200 euros tax.

UK-Non EC is.

[Phileas Fogg]

MUFC Fan,

What?

[MUFC_fan]

Sorry, miss understood your post.

:\

[Phileas Fogg]

MUFC fan,

What's this about a EUR200 tax UK to a non EU destination?

[MUFC_fan]

Sorry, I completely messed up my post. It wasn't supposed to say 200 euros. Basically the UK would charge far more in taxes for a UK-Russia flight than say UK-France, Spain etc.

[Phileas Fogg]

MUFC Fan,

What difference does Russia make as opposed to another non EU destination or, indeed, former FSU destination!

The 'orange' brigade do flights UK to (non EU) Turkey, all inclusive, for circa £31.00, a one way fare from LGW to KBP (Ukraine) with UIA is:

Fare per person 58.00
Taxes & Charges 52.20
Ticket issuance charge 3.00
Totals 113.20

The only tax penalty out of UK might be for flights from/to LHR where there's something like a GBP50 tax, other than that it makes no difference where the destination may be.

[MUFC_fan]

Isn't an EU destination £10 ADP and Non-EU £40?

[Charlie Roy]

2. The government would impose a minimum price stipulation on key routes. Example: St. Petersburg - London tickets cannot be cheaper than 200 euro

I wasn't talking about taxes. When foreign airlines operate to/from Russia the government makes them promise never to charge less than "X" amount on route "Y". For example foreign airlines operating London to Moscow cannot offer fares less than a certain amount (sorry, I don't know the exact amount). But this policy is thereby protecting Aeroflot, and while it exists is likely to discourage Ryanair. (That's if they were ever interested or in a position to enter the Russian market in the first place).

[davidjohnson6]

The difference between European and other rates of APD is (until autumn 2009) based on a rather contrived definition as to what constitutes Europe. Details can be found in notice 550 from HMRC.

Turkey is deemed to be part of Europe, as are places like the Azores, Canary Islands and Gibraltar. However, Belarus, Moldova, Russia and Ukraine are not deemed to be within Europe and attract the higher rate of APD.

[Phileas Fogg]

Well if what you guys say is correct then there comes the advantage of taking an intermediary stop and in my travels to ex USSR I have transitted via such airports as AMS, DUS, BUD, VIE, IST etc.

Now if UK charge these 'discrimatory' taxes whilst other EU nations do not then I wonder why they call it 'Rip Off Britain'!

[allblacks]

My Electron card has arrived!

One less bulls**t FR fee to worry about....:ok:

[davidjohnson6]

Apologies if this is rather off-topic, but I thought an explanation of APD here might be warranted.

Phileas - HMRC is rather more alert than one might have hoped.
If for example you fly Heathrow-Vienna-St Petersburg, and you have a connection time in Vienna of (essentially) under 24 hours, then the non-European rate of APD needs to be paid - i.e. £40 and not £10. Thus, unless you are prepared to spend more than 24 hours between 2 flights, whether you fly direct or not has no impact on the APD due.

It should also be noted that most airlines deem a break of 24 hours or more as a stopover, and will frequently charge a higher price for the privilege.
This alas means that if you want to fly to Russia / Ukraine, there is little or no point in choosing to fly via a 3rd country unless you wish to acti8vely spend some time in that 3rd country - you either pay more in tax, or you pay more to the airline.

You can find out more about the current scheme at
HM Revenue & Customs (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_InfoGuides&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_CL_001170)

The rules on what consitutes a connecting flights are described in sections 3 and 4

The APD scheme will of course change on 1 November 2009

[rafinha130]

MRS - OPO, new frequency added (Thu).
Starting 29/10.

Mon, Wed, Thu, Fri, Sun.

[rafinha130]

According to the winter timetable the morning flight to BVA will not be operated by a OPO based aircraft, but a W operation.

Until now the route BVA - OPO was a W operation, PIK-BVA-OPO-BVA-PIK.
This winter a similar operation, but starting in Skavsta:
NYO-BVA-OPO-BVA-NYO.

This means that we have a early daily operation to fullfil.

New route or a existing route operated by a OPO plane. STN? BHX?

[Facelookbovvered]

I think the higher rate of APD only applies if you book a through ticket, if you take your chance on connections then you'll only be charged the inter European rate, where you go after you have landed in AMS is non of HMRC business nor should it be. In my view the UK current position on APD is not sustainable, it reminds me of the hike's in duty on road fund licence, which contributed to a collapse of in sale for Jaguar/Land Rover, followed by bailout and the car scrapage scheme, if things are as bad at BA as WW alleges, then how long before the goverment either relents or bails them out.

Of course MOL made the APD a target when he gave the impresion that you could fly anywhere in Europe for 99p this got the Greens wound up big style and then Commrade Gobo Broon thought i'll have some of that to fund "Schoools n Hospitals" and show my green bits too (read second homes allowance, duck house's and plasma telly's)

The fact that Ryanair/Easyjet fly modern fleets and fill the aircraft and (in Easyjet's case) contribute to the European construction of Airbus jobs and pay taxes in the Uk (unlike Ryanair) who increasingly employee contractor's who many, i understand? are paid gross and pay little or no tax as they hop round Europe with Ryanair's musical base swaps. Meanwhile you pay the same duty to fly on a vintage aircraft with the likes of Jet2 or baby or on a near empty domestic LHR with bmi or BA

How can it be a green tax when cargo pays nowt? nor biz jets with one pax on it, it needs a rethink or better still scraping

[The Real Slim Shady]

Air transport is responsible for 1.8% of global CO2 emissions: rail and shipping accounts for 2.5% but doesn't attract a Passenger Tax.

Even livestock and manure accounts for 5.1% but I don't see the Rabid Socialists taxing cows and sheep!

[EI-BUD]

Reading some of the news about Ryanair cutting back at STN this winter I decided to investigate there schedules, it would seem that they are axing a handful of routes;

Newquay
Almeria
Lamezia
Montpellier
Palermo
Pergpignan
Toulon
Zadar

Some other changes that i noticed
Dublin cut again now down to 7 daily
Knock staying at 2 daily!
Derry down to 4 a week
Oslo Rygge .. new route

Most of the axed routes are arguably summer markets, so obviously nothing to do with charges etc as already discussed on this thread.

Hard to see where the 30/40% reduction is coming from there must be huge cut backs on several routes? Or are the reductions in service reflected yet on the website? With so many less than daily routes it is hard to see the changes.

[ayroplain]

Interesting conversation I had today with a friend who travels frequently by air - almost every week - and mostly flies Ryanair. By astute use of their website he has hardly ever paid more than £20 for a return flight!!! He travels light and reads/abides by the rules (unlike the idiots who always complain afterwards about having to pay extra at the aiport even though they've ticked the box when booking and confirmed they've read them - his words not mine). He hasn't had a single problem other than a couple of severe weather delays that affected all airlines.
But one problem has now arisen he says that, more than anything else, will deter him from flying FR. It seems that on four of his trips his online printed boarding passes failed to scan at Security and he had to go to a check-in desk where they were replaced with no problem and for no fee. His argument is that should a similar event occur next time that he will be charged £40 for a replacement and since he prints both Outward and Return passes at the same time time there is a good chance that both will be faulty and it will cost an extra £80 which he is not willing to risk. But it isn't just the money. It's the worry each time he sets off on his trips.
I did suggest he buy a new printer but that's no guarantee.

Anyway, I had a look at the FR website and this is what it says:

If you do not check-in online you will be required to pay the relevant fee to re-issue your boarding card at the airport.(Euro 40/ GBP 40), this fee is only available for purchase up to 40 minutes prior to the scheduled flight departure

On that basis he would not be charged the extra as it says the fee is payable if you do not check-in online which he would have done in all cases.
The word issue rather than re-issue would be more correct unless, of course, they don't mean what they say.

[davidjohnson6]

Facelookbovvered - I agree with your point about the higher APD only applying if one books a through ticket. However, in most cases, the saving on the APD is usually outweighed by the increase in the other components of the overall fare. Thus, a customer is incentivised to book a through ticket for a cheaper overall price, with more of the money spent going to HMRC rather than the airline / airports en route. HMRC know this, which is why they manage to get away with this scheme. I doubt HMRC really care *where* exactly you are flying - they care only that they get their money !

ayroplain - tell your mate to print the boarding card twice, once from his computer at home, and once from the computer at the office - I believe that reprinting a boarding card yourself is free. It does however sound like a fault with a printer (or something physical related to it). You can buy a new black+white laser printer for under £50 if you have a search around the web. 2nd hand on Ebay should be rather cheaper.

I'm interested as to how your friend manages to fly so much for under £20 - assuming he has a Mon-Fri job and flies mainly at weekends. Round trips on this fare with almost any other airline are very difficult to obtain, and while I've done a few trips to Hahn for tuppence ha'penny, it's rather more difficult to achieve if visiting the southern Med in summer !

Ryanair are not renowned for getting the wording exactly right on their terms of business - improving the drafting skills of their in-house lawyers would be an idea. While technically you can hold them to it in a court, it's a pain in the b*m to do so, meaning that unless the sum involved is significant or you are *really* cross with them, it's usually not worth the hassle.

[super737]

Trust me reprints are given for free if sent back by security and pax can produce their online boarding card, it is only when they say "oh I checked in online but couldn't be bothered printing it etc etc"

[anna_list]

1st Quarter Results - London Stock Exchange (http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-news/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=10122939)
Profit after tax of € 136.5 M excludes a further €13.5m write down on the Aer Lingus shares (total write down on Aer Lingus has now reached €327 M!).

Full year yield decline expected to be "at or slightly more than minus 20%", "unit costs (excluding fuel) to fall by approx. 5%"

Full year guidance "towards the lower end of the €200m to €300m range."

A few other interesting points from the full results report:
* Gross cash increased in the quarter by €221.9M to €2,500.1M
*Long term debt, net of repayments, increased by €206.5m to €2,604.9m during the quarter
* €65.6m raised from the sale of three Boeing 737-800 aircraft
* It would appear that the plan is still to increase the fleet size (net of planned disposals) to 292 aircraft by March 31, 2012. That's an increase of 93 aircraft over 32 months.

[Whiskey Papa]

Also passenger numbers increased - a stark contrast to BA!

BBC NEWS | Business | Fuel price fall bolsters Ryanair (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8169895.stm)

WP

[racedo]

A decent set of Q1 results given what is happening within the market place.

Still managing to obtain decent prices for old aircraft of approx €22 M ($30-31M) which is US$ terms is likely well above original purchase price, though given these sales probably agreed 6 months to a year ago they probably not sustainable.

[befree]

Ryanair is taking less from each pax even in a qtr that has easter when the same year before did not. The low income per pax show how those who can chose are going with better carriers. After the summer peak the airline will find it impossible to keep load factors without even greater discounts on ticket prices. They forecast 200m-300m euro profit for the year but that is very dependant ok keeping enougth pax paying over 30 euros.

This year they cannot blame a high fuel cost for the lack of profits. Big losses will come in the winter.

[racedo]

Ryanair is taking less from each pax even in a qtr that has easter when the same year before did not. The low income per pax show how those who can chose are going with better carriers. After the summer peak the airline will find it impossible to keep load factors without even greater discounts on ticket prices. They forecast 200m-300m euro profit for the year but that is very dependant ok keeping enougth pax paying over 30 euros.

This year they cannot blame a high fuel cost for the lack of profits. Big losses will come in the winter.

http://www.pprune.org/4909203-post4319.html

Guess they won't need to be admitting 2009/10 will be loss making just yet:cool:

As for the going with better carriers ? Please do tell which one ?

Lufthansa: Airline industry in "worst crisis in its history" | Top News (http://www.topnews.in/lufthansa-airline-industry-worst-crisis-its-history-2193321)

LH doesn't think so as Passengers numbers down 5% in the 1st half year.

BA passenger numbers going nowhere in Europe

Easyjet Passenger numbers year on year to end of June were flat v 2008 and that excludes Jan 2008 of GB Airways numbers.

[ayroplain]

I'm interested as to how your friend manages to fly so much for under £20 - assuming he has a Mon-Fri job and flies mainly at weekends.
He's retired, travels midweek, always ahead of the game, has loadsa dosh and never paid full price for anything in his life:ok:

Thanks super737. When he hears that good news I can guarantee he won't even spend the £50 on a new printer!!

[MUFC_fan]

But it will operate only four fewer planes than it did last winter.


I love that comment...

Any airport in the UK would LOVE to have four extra aircraft! ;)

[befree]

from the airline
As a result we expect Q2 yields will be significantly lower than last year, at or even slightly above the minus 15% to 20% range previously guided. Based on this yield performance in H1 we expect the full year yield decline will be at or slightly more than minus 20% and accordingly, our full year net profit will be towards the lower end of the €200m to €300m range, previously guided.

Many airlines are carrying less pax but FR are carrying more but at a lot lower fare. If fares are 20% lower then you need 25% more pax to get the same income. It costs more to carry 25% more pax. The airline has gone well below the optimal price point to make money. It need to fund a few billion euros of new planes but has static income. As a business it is easyjet that has got things right and kept growth low so that fares are not undermined.

[racedo]

Many airlines are carrying less pax but FR are carrying more but at a lot lower fare. If fares are 20% lower then you need 25% more pax to get the same income. It costs more to carry 25% more pax. The airline has gone well below the optimal price point to make money. It need to fund a few billion euros of new planes but has static income. As a business it is easyjet that has got things right and kept growth low so that fares are not undermined.

Don't need to drive income hard when your costs are falling.

As for needing the income for new planes well think the €200 plus million cash generated in Q1 goes towards that quite nicely.

[befree]

The stock market is marking ryanair down 9% at the moment.
Cash always flow in during the summer but will go back out in the winter.

It is cashflow that breaks firms not profits. the orders for new planes leads to billions of cash flowing out during the next 5 years. They may not have enough cash to pay and the credit will dry up as the cash pile drops.

The decline in ryanair will be slow and painful. Cost cutting will hurt load factors. When they lose the last minute bookings the profit is dead.

[MUFC_fan]

As long as they weren't four Ryanair aircraft......


CEOs at many UK airport will disagree with you there.


It is cashflow that breaks firms not profits.


Sort of true. But remember, you can have a £1bn coming in a day but it you are spending £1.5bn then it isn't going to work. You can have £10bn in the bank but it will only last you 20 months.


the orders for new planes leads to billions of cash flowing out during the next 5 years. They may not have enough cash to pay and the credit will dry up as the cash pile drops.


I thought Ryanair bought the aircraft themselves at very low prices from Boeing, sold them to leasing firms, made a profit through them and then leased them back? Maybe that doesn't happen any more I am not sure. A lot like what BT did.


The decline in ryanair will be slow and painful.


I am pretty sure you cannot say things like that - people study hard at Uni and are given the privilege of making quotes like that. It may be your opinion but you cannot state it like that. How are you in the know of that anyway?:confused:


Cost cutting will hurt load factors.


How will Ryanair's cost cutting hurt load factors?! They have been reducing costs for years and their load factors have stayed pretty stagnant and passenger numbers have risen!


When they lose the last minute bookings the profit is dead.

What has/will change in the market for them to lose these bookings?:confused:

Please note:

I do not work for Ryanair
I benefit nothing from the airline (except cheap flights!)
I am fair to Ryanair where credit is due but give me BA anyday


I just get annoyed when people, who maybe have never even flown with the airline, make comments that, whether they have flown with them or not, are quite ridiculous and I would go as far to say stupid (quotes 1 and 4).

[racedo]

The stock market is marking ryanair down 9% at the moment.
Cash always flow in during the summer but will go back out in the winter.

It is cashflow that breaks firms not profits. the orders for new planes leads to billions of cash flowing out during the next 5 years. They may not have enough cash to pay and the credit will dry up as the cash pile drops.

The decline in ryanair will be slow and painful. Cost cutting will hurt load factors. When they lose the last minute bookings the profit is dead.

I guess €2.6 Billion in cash is just a problem Ryanair will have to struggle with.

As the reported results are only to end of June then guess the cash will still just have to pile in further over the summer YET AGAIN.

As for the orders for new planes they are already financed at pretty cheap rates with ExIm bank so having enough cash is not going to be a problem then is it ? Let face it do you lend money to an airline with continual good cashflows or to one that is struggling and burning cash.

If cost cutting is hurting load factors then the increase of 2% year on year in load factors and the 5% cut in costs suggests yet again your attempt in clutching at straws fails.

[eastern wiseguy]

What has/will change in the market for them to lose these bookings?


The downfall of things like the Celtic Tiger. Eastern europeans returning home.The irritating things involved in flying these days ....from security carp to charges out of all proportion to the service received(credit and debit charges for example). The fact(as another poster put it) everyone from Essex has been to Lubeck as many times as they need. Not least the fact that my employer tells me that pax figures have fallen hugely over the past year.Oh and a recession with folks having less discretionary disposable income.

I am sure that more will be added.

the increase of 2% year on year in load factors and the 5% cut in costs

And profits are being marked down.....so not really stopping the "rot" merely slowing the descent.

[MUFC_fan]

The downfall of things like the Celtic Tiger. Eastern europeans returning home.The irritating things involved in flying these days ....from security carp to charges out of all proportion to the service received(credit and debit charges for example). The fact(as another poster put it) everyone from Essex has been to Lubeck as many times as they need. Not least the fact that my employer tells me that pax figures have fallen hugely over the past year.Oh and a recession with folks having less discretionary disposable income.

I am sure that more will be added.


But how will that reduce LATE bookings specifically?:confused:

[eastern wiseguy]

It will have the effect of reducing bookings period.Last minute bookings are generally the most expensive......and the recession/discretionary spend will see to that.

[davidjohnson6]

People seem to be forgetting one big thing - recessions do not last forever.

Every airline is hurting right now, and all are seeing profits weaker than they would like. When the recession ends, people will start spending more freely again.

[MUFC_fan]

Well said davidjohnson6.

Also - since when have Ryanair's passenger numbers been falling?!:confused:

[racedo]

The downfall of things like the Celtic Tiger. Eastern europeans returning home...........Oh and a recession with folks having less discretionary disposable income.In a recession people are more likely to look for options that are cheaper as LH Board Director was stating last week.

Not sure Celtic Tiger and Polish immigration that has much relevance to internal flights within Spain or Italy does it ?

Flights numbers have reduced considerably from Ireland in last year and Poland but the prices have gone up.
Italy the focus for much of Ryanair and easyJet’s expansion in last 12 months; Spanish flights up over 20% | anna.aero (http://www.anna.aero/2009/07/17/italy-the-focus-for-much-of-ryanair-and-easyjets-expansion-in-last-12-months-spanish-flights-up-over-20/)

FR has expanded number of departures in Italy and Spain by close to 50% within last year .

And profits are being marked down.....so not really stopping the "rot" merely slowing the descent.How are they being marked down if made more money that last year.

Guidance on full year profit is historically conservative with Ryanair and then they over deliver. Its why puzzled about decline in share price because he is stating he will lose money in last half of year which not sure even he believes..

[WHBM]

When they lose the last minute bookings the profit is dead.

What has/will change in the market for them to lose these bookings?

The people like me, travelling a lot, who pay over £200 return to Ireland or Prestwick, booking the day before and travelling on business. I do it because Stansted is a more convenient place than Heathrow to get to for a Cork flight, or because I am going to Ayr and Prestwick offers an advantage over Glasgow. This is quite a lot of their higher-revenue demand.

Do not think that Ryanair built up their profits from people paying £1. Obviously they did not. They got it from people like me and similar.

However this advantage is marginal, and Ryanair are steadily whittling that away. Because we get the same standad of service (see above) as those paying lower fares. If we are going to be messed about with baggage fees and similar, because I decide to take two laptops, regardless of whether I can claim the fees back on expenses, that is a step towards the competition. If we continue to be laughed at when attending business meetings because we travelled Ryanair and get asked if we had to travel standing up, or had to pay for the toilet, that's a negative. If, having spent £220 return STN-DUB, we get patronised by the proprietor of the airline who tells the media "what else do they expect for their £1", that's another negative.

07.30 Monday morning out of Stansted there are a lot of people in business suits on Ryanair. I doubt any of them paid anything like the low headine prices - yield management seems to be something Ryanair do well. That's the market to lose.

[racedo]

Do not think that Ryanair built up their profits from people paying £1. Obviously they did not. They got it from people like me and similar.
They do make it from you and similar BUT don't discount the 1 pound fare because these people also go to places for longer and hire a car / use the Ryanair bus / eat of the plane etc etc. The profit may be smaller but as Walmart show again and again a small profit from many customers is still a profit worth having, just you need to ensure the correct mix as BA is showing that the desertion of business class passengers is crashing profits and it doesn't have anything to replace them with.

[pee]

Ryanair built up their profits from /... people like me and similar.

Ryanair are steadily whittling that away. Because we get the same standad of service as those paying lower fares. If we are going to be messed /... that is a step towards the competition. If we continue to be laughed at when attending business meetings because we travelled Ryanair and get asked if we had to travel standing up, or had to pay for the toilet, that's a negative. /...

there are a lot of people in business suits on Ryanair. I doubt any of them paid anything like the low headine prices /... That's the market to lose.
WHBM, you are so right. Ryanair can fill up the planes offering £1 flights, but they NEED the travellers like you and CANNOT afford to abuse (and lose) them. Yet we still observe the self-inflicted disastrous defamation of their own image. Whatever the reason (personality-derived?), no scent of fineness, elegance in the PR... some psychology lessons required?

[Charlie Roy]

Eastern europeans returning home.

I think this is somewhat overrated if not the latest urban myth.
Taking Poland for example. Capacity has remained the same.
Italy the focus for much of Ryanair and easyJet’s expansion in last 12 months; Spanish flights up over 20% | anna.aero (http://www.anna.aero/2009/07/17/italy-the-focus-for-much-of-ryanair-and-easyjets-expansion-in-last-12-months-spanish-flights-up-over-20/)
Flights to Poland, which had been growing at a phenomenal rate in recent years, are virtually unchanged versus a year ago.

But still, month after month, the load factors on flights to/from Poland are HUGE.

[no slot]

Racedo,

" Thou protest too much.... "
I dont know whether Ryanair will continue to be world beaters, or whether a serious correction is on the way. Right now, either option is credible. The variables in this outcome are external to Ryanair. When the variables are external and out of your control, you dont expose yourself further to capital cost or investment, unless you're sure you can trade through, and control a bigger market share the other side. Long term debt net of repayments increased 206.5m to 2,604.9m Euro over the quarter. A very worrying fact, a more worrying trend. What is of serious concern to Ryanair shareholders is whether or not the current strategy is the correct strategy. The CEO has been very reliable earner for many a shareholder over the years, is this colouring their vision?

Trees dont grow to the sky. Reading your posts reminds me of many similar comments made by Irish Politicians, Irish Bankers, and Property developers during the dizzy heights of the Irish housing boom. Denial.

I'm not for one second saying its a sure thing Ryanair are bust, but I have taken my money out of Ryanair shares, and I will not return in the medium term.

Sorry to be so direct.

[pee]

> the load factors on flights to/from Poland are HUGE

Mostly to UK/Ireland. Much to my surprise however, I also spotted quite good LF's between Poland and Spain (GRO). Not only the workforce traveling there, looks like a good sign for the future.

[befree]

The load factor was up in Q1 due to the timing of Easter. The average income per pax was down 13% and would have been down more if easter had not been in Q1 this year. Ryanair admit a 15-20% drop in income per pax is possible.

The have 16 more planes to pay compared to 3 months ago. come the winter they will have more parked then ever before. The business model need the assets to work very hard as every sector makes such a small income. They have gone past the point were the model works. cuts in fares to generate more traffic is pulling the price down so far that you make less income by being bigger. If we pull out of downturn the oil price will rise and kill the airline. If we stay in a downturn the yeald will keep going down to keep new pax flying.

[racedo]

The load factor was up in Q1 due to the timing of Easter.

So Easter existed in May and June as well then ????


The average income per pax was down 13% and would have been down more if easter had not been in Q1 this year.

In which case they would have enjoyed the benefit in Q4 2008/9 then

Ryanair admit a 15-20% drop in income per pax is possible.

Funny you don't accept their word for anything else but if its negative then you do.

The have 16 more planes to pay compared to 3 months ago. come the winter they will have more parked then ever before. The business model need the assets to work very hard as every sector makes such a small income. They have gone past the point were the model works. cuts in fares to generate more traffic is pulling the price down so far that you make less income by being bigger. If we pull out of downturn the oil price will rise and kill the airline. If we stay in a downturn the yeald will keep going down to keep new pax flying.

So if you stay in a downturn they die, come out of it they die :ugh: Think you and crystal ball gazing don't get on.

Perhaps if you bothered to look beyond your bias you might look at the almost 1000 new departures from Italy and Spain that have helped their passenger numbers but doubt you would see that.

Funny that they the only airline that seems to be making money in the downturn so in an upturn why would they stop doing it when they could allow fares to rise easily.

They make €9 profit per passenger which is quite decent return given few airlines are making a profit.

[Day_Dreamer]

If the oil price rises significantly we wont need to worry about the LoCo's as they will be mopping up after the legacy carriers go bust.
its a question of who has what in the bank, or assets to sell.
RYR's model has been good for years but I agree the deliveries of new aircraft may be a problem as the selling of the older 737-800's has slowed to a trickle.
RYR will be here long after others have been consigned to the scrap heap.

[mickyman]

Some posters on here have an almost psychotic dislike of this airline.

Logical thought processes seem beyond them.

£118m profit in a downturn - and they still go on.

Some people I guess like to moan for effect - they're on here thinking
everyone is waiting to read their comments on this or that.If you dont
like Ryanair dont fly with them - its simple!
You are the minority that will never be a majority because the FACTS
do not agree with your stance.

This airline has a European catchment area and as such it flies 60m
people around - so LOGIC would state that it must be doing something right.

MM

[Skipness One Echo]

The amount of spin that Ryanair puts out is immense so your "FACTS" are actually of course only really your opinions. There is little transparency where MOL is concerned! Ryanair will survive but when one sees Ryanair slashing routes from EDI and PIK and moving aircraft into new markets that will take some time to generate profits, one has to entertain doubts. They have an unprecedented number of new B737-800s coming into service expanding the airline greatly at a time of massive doubt in the industry. This business model depended on getting a good price for the used B737s that are to be sold on and the yield and load factors holding up.

Neither of these is proving to be the case. Ryanair had a shed load in the bank but they are moving out of loss making core markets into new markets that will take time to build up. There is real reason to be concerned as the mad dash for growth must plateau at some point. We shall see.

Whatever happens, the idea of everything being the fault of tax / government / local authority / EU / fairies / anyone else is wearing thin.

[eastern wiseguy]

As a result we expect Q2 yields will be significantly lower than last year, at or even slightly above the minus 15% to 20% range previously guided. Based on this yield performance in H1 we expect the full year yield decline will be at or slightly more than minus 20% and accordingly, our full year net profit will be towards the lower end of the €200m to €300m range, previously guided.


Thats what RYR say about profits....that looks like marking down in my book...

[BC2300]

Armchair analysts, *sighs*

[davidjohnson6]

Whenever it comes to offering guidance as to future profits to stock analysts and investors, they always provide a very pessimistic view of the future 12 months - and nobody can really prove that the Ryanair board were doing anything wrong in just expressing a cautious view of the world. It's worth listening in to the recorded conference calls, just to hear the tone that MOL and the Ryanair board adopt when questioned by stock analysts, compared to the public image they normally project !

They are very aware that if a company promises profit growth but fails to deliver, the investors punishes the company in question for it with a faill in the share price, so they are just trying to cover themselves. However, a company is meant to provide a *realistic* guide as to future profits, on which Ryanair are probably falling down.

MOL has been challenged by friendly stock analysts in the past on (for example) forecast passenger numbers for the next few months, and he has conceded that sales were not going as badly as he had suggested.

The Panel in Ireland should probably be picking up on this and expressing an opinion - but it's likely to be difficult to mount a formal case. The Irish financial regulatory authorities have more important things to deal with at the moment.

[racedo]

This business model depended on getting a good price for the used B737s that are to be sold on and the yield and load factors holding up.

Neither of these is proving to be the case.

So $30 Million is not a good price for a 7 year old 737 bought for probably $25 M or less ? What is the price they should be getting then.

As of December / January RBS Aviation take back 16 737's that were a sale and lease back deal.

I try and find holes in the their strategy and there are a few but not many.

Moving into Spain and Italy when competition is collapsing seems a pretty decent strategy, Easyjet seem to agree as they doing the same thing.

[racedo]

DJ6

You are correct in your assessment as I feel they understate potential and then overdeliver but market prefers that.

If you deliver what you say then they happy but want more, deliver less without telling and they will punish very quickly.

Its difficult for any regulatory body to complain about a company that is cautious in stating potential. Frankly they more worried on the ones who overstate to prop up a share price.

[eu01]

They have gone past the point were the model works. cuts in fares to generate more traffic is pulling the price down so far that you make less income by being bigger. If we pull out of downturn the oil price will rise and kill the airline. If we stay in a downturn the yeald will keep going down to keep new pax flying.
The downturn has given Ryanair kind of relief (extra-time) to re-think and re-shape its policies, its business model, if you wish. Without the present crisis (if it didn't come), the oil price would have made these low prices unsustainable by now. The business that bases all its policies upon low-fares only using no other arguments to maintain its popularity, becomes very vulnerable if it is forced to rise its prices (having no other bait for the customers). FR has been given the chance to re-organize the model. I do not see any changes, nothing new. Such a fact should be very worrying to those who do not relish the prospect of the carrier heading towards (big) trouble.

[Skipness One Echo]

Mickeyman what part of what I said did you disagree with? Or are you just annoyed I disagree?

So $30 Million is not a good price for a 7 year old 737 bought for probably $25 M or less ? What is the price they should be getting then.
As of December / January RBS Aviation take back 16 737's that were a sale and lease back deal.

er racedo is this information in the public domain? Link please :) Either that or for someone who assures us he doesn't work for Ryanair you seem remarkably up to speed....
That IS a good price I agree given how heavily used and basic these 737s are.

[apaul]

Isn't a discussion board for discussion rather than pontificating about who is qualified to comment? Ryanair will always attract vitriolic criticism because of its contempt for its customers and any publicity is good publicity approach. For all the talk of new bases I expect most of the planes not flying from Stansted, Edinburgh etc. will be sitting on the tarmac during the winter, but that will make lower losses than virtually giving the seats away.

[befree]

Easyjet can get 60 euros out of each pax when ryanair can only get 37 euros. Easyjet will have higher costs as if flys to better airports and does not cut things as much as Ryanair. Ryanair seems hell bent on making airtravel cheap and nasty. Ryanair will carry the most passengers but less and less of those with money. The stock market knows the model is braking.

I do thing ryanair is also going to find it very hard to get the good deals it once made. Areas that pumped millions into getter ryanair to build up routes are now to have no winter service. Ryanair air is also using less and less of the airports services. The airports just lose cash having ryanair moving in and driving out the other airlines.

[mickyman]

Skipness

How about your post 5025 - All of.

MM

[eu01]

mickyman, it's a very slippery ground

Indeed, you can ask me if I ever happened to be as successful doing my businesses as MOL has been until now and I will not surprise you, I'll have to answer: no. Does that mean that I'm not entitled to express my opinions, to point out and criticize some obvious mistakes in "master's" approach? Let's face it, these planes having to stand on the tarmac are just a good confirmation: Ryanair business model is not versatile enough to be able to make use of the potential they already have. Every other explanation is just misleading - should we pretend we don't see it?

[eu01]

:hmm: Interesting. Do you believe in infailability perhaps?

[Skipness One Echo]

mickeyman why so uber passionate on Ryanair?

People are asking some legitimate questions. You can sell a tenner for a fiver to generate business but it won't last long until you sell a tenner for more than it's face value. I have flown with them about four times this year alone so I'm not looking down my nose at them, just fed up with being treated like c***.

[mickyman]

Skipness

Re-read your own posts again and again and see if
the penny drops?

MM

[mickyman]

eu01

I believe in facts.

MM

[IJM]

Mickeyman - in respect of your reply to eu01 (#5039), why exactly is he not qualified to comment?

[pee]

Infailability? No way. Let's just mention the failed acquisition of Air Lingus and the economical cost of this attempt...A FACT is that Ryanair carried 60m passengers last year. A FACT is that they still made a profit of 118m in a downturn.Right. But A FACT is also that the carrier has to carry many more passengers in the years to come and in the same time to improve the yields. Without some significant changes in its marketing approch that can prove difficult.

Meanwhile, here in Finland there are some hints about the progress in Lappeenranta (remember this Saimaa/ "St. Petersburg West" airport?)
According to Finnish press (http://www.esaimaa.fi/Uutiset---Uutiset-maakunnasta/2009/07/24/Halpalentojen+suosion+kasvu++voi+tuoda+lennot+Lappeenrantaan/200917431682/5), there are good chances to finalize the negotiations and to start three new routes to/from LPP. The possible destinations are NRN Weeze, Paris (BVA?) and Milan BGY.

Btw. - a hint towards a new base in BVA?

[Falcon666]

Mickyman,Think your being slightly harsh on Skipness.
They are probably not assumptions , just opinions based on his experiences.
For example in my opinion Ryanairs customer service has deteriorated significantly in the last year.
Their treatment of wheelchair users does leave a lot to be desired.

I think that his last comment about customers in mature markets is correct.

Yes you are correct about having a choice.
I fly about 30 times a year and have stopped using Ryanair this year.

They have been successful,that is not in doubt.If it continues only time will tell as more and more travellers become dissatisfied.

And remember the old adage about making statistics say whatever you want them to say.

[Bengt]

Skipness One Echo
FACT Ryanair customer service is appaling.
FACT Ryanair treat wheelchair users as a nuisance.
FACT Ryanair sail close to the courts with their advertising year in year out.
FACT Ryanair disdain the competition.
FACT Ryanair sell on price and price alone. Much cheapness.
FACT Ryanair treat their own staff like ****
FACT Ryanair are downsizing their main base in Europe at Stansted
FACT Ryanair have just dumped on their loyal customers with second homes in France that flew from Stansted (they were warned but don't expect repeat custom)

I wonder what personal experience you have from travelling with a wheel chair user on Ryanair. I have a daughter who is disabled and we have travelled with Ryanair more htna 6 times the last 12 months. I have also travelled with SAS and Spanair. Ryanair wins the service game here. Especially now after the enforced online checkin where you can book your needed assistance online without calling the service phone. On the airport the assistance has been great also. When arriving on the plane there are easily acceible seats very clos to the entrance with place for the assistants. Well done Ryanair! I have some horror stories from Spanair flights to tell you...
As of customer service there is the nuisance with the pay per minute call center, but otherwise I have been given good service when I have made mistakes in booking without any cost ...
For advertising I also do not agree with you. When Ryanair advertises 1 SEK sales I do not have any problem finding the tickets for a return flight for 2 SEK total. That is more than you can say about SAS and other's campaigns..
Some of you rother points are probably correct.
Still Ryanair does not sell on price only. Simplicity (small airports, quick away, no luggage lost etc) are also selling points...

[befree]

A FACT is that Ryanair carried 60m passengers last year

I am not sure what the no show rate is but when people buy seats for just a few euros the it is likely many will not show. Some people are in effect buying an option to fly. If you are not sure when you are going then some will just book a few flights and just turn up for one. I suspect they carried around 55m passengers last year. The thing that counts is how much income you make.

[globetrotter79]

Befree

I agree with what you are saying, however also remember that FR will also rely on revenues made whilst fleecing you either at the airport or onboard the aircraft. As such, if you have booked seats on a number of different flights for the cheapest possible fare, then FR will be losing out through no-shows (assuming it doesn't overbook???).

Unlike the likes of BA who've basically made all they revenue they are likely to out of you before you check-in; FR will still be budgeting a fair percentage of its target revenue per passenger post-booking, which it obviously fails to make if you don't turn up.

[Charlie Roy]

Memmingen - Bremen
Memmingen - Stockholm

[Charlie Roy]

Loads of new routes on map from Gran Canaria and Lanzarote, and some new routes from Tenerife :ok:

It looks like a work in progress though. All 3 airports have for now the exact same routes.

Routes from all 3 airports (new Tenerife routes in bold)
Dublin
Weeze
East Midlands
Hahn
Girona
Prestwick
Liverpool
Standsted
Shannon
Edinburgh
Birmingham
Bristol
Luton
Bournemouth
Madrid
Porto (not from Lanzarote)
Bergamo
Charleroi

[Provance]

Looks like FR kept their promise .... no new routes to the UK or Ireland :bored:

[FutureCC]

I often use Ryanair - cheap fares, excellent service from cabin crew, comfortable, easy, etc: Why complain? If you want to go to Madrid, Berlin, Rome, Vienna, Amsterdam etc affordable these days - it has got to be with Ryanair.

May I ask to see where you got the fact about Ryanair treating it's staff like **** please? Thank you.

They flew 60 million people in 2008... they have got to be doing something right!

[MUFC_fan]

Looks like FR kept their promise .... no new routes to the UK or Ireland


Read Charlie Roy's post again.

[Provance]

Irregardless of where the aircraft is based, its still a new route

[VanBosh]

That would be some expansion from the canary islands! cant see them announcing all those routes at once, what is it 18 from Gran Canaria, 18 from Lanzarote and 9 from Tenerife.

On the other hand it would give them somewhere to base those planes they are moving from STN etc. The 18 destinations are all bases themselves but I cant see them announcing 18 new routes to GC/Lanzarote from 18 exisiting bases!

[al446]

Irregardless

There is no such word (look it up).

[Provance]

Irregardless - OneLook Dictionary Search (http://www.onelook.com/?w=Irregardless&ls=a)


END OF CONVERSATION

[Charlie Roy]

That would be some expansion from the canary islands! cant see them announcing all those routes at once, what is it 18 from Gran Canaria, 18 from Lanzarote and 9 from Tenerife.

Ya it would amount to:
18 new routes from Gran Canaria
17 from Lanzarote (no route to Porto)
9 from Tenerife

I am also dubious that all of these routes currently on the destinations map are going to be announced. I'm confident Gran Canaria and Lanzarote will indeed become Ryanair destinations but I guess they'll start with a handful of routes and that the following airports will get at least one new route to the Canary Islands:
Edinburgh
Birmingham
Bristol
Luton
Bournemouth
Madrid
Porto
Bergamo
Charleroi

[FutureCC]

I would not envisage Luton getting that route, if Ryanair is going to open the London route; it would be from Stansted. That's if Ryanair don't already do a Stansted - Gran Canaria, Lanzarote, and Tenerife route!

[Cllrcollins]

Michael Cawley and a senior Ryanair official from Madrid have a press conference tomorrow announced in Tenerife at 9am. The only info I have is that "they intend to announce important news about their operations in The Canary Islands"

There has been an extensive campaign for Ryanair to return to Fuerteventura after a row with the local authorities. Does anybody have any info on this press conference:confused:

[Stewart28]

Was checkin online check-in and I see BRS is showing LDY is it coming back

[Facelookbovvered]

It seem a fair performance from Ryanair, i suspect most of LoCo's will have had a good year having heaped on bag charges and increased credit/debit charges this past year to cover high fuel costs which are have what they were this time last year.

Bag allowances

Ryanair 15kg
Easyjet 20kg
Baby 18kg
Jet2 17kg
BA 23KG


Not sure about the other's but the extra 8kg you get with BA would cost a £120.00 with Ryanair

BA will allow two items of hand luggage, with Ryanair it one and any extra is £30.00 although the policing is very hit and miss, are you feeling lucky today punk?


Ryanair on many routes are fast becoming the only show in town other than med routes or turkey/Egypt (for now) i suspect that if the job market place for pilots remains poor then further cut in T&C's are on the cards and F/o's will get next to nothing as happens in many far east markets.

What commision does Visa Electron charge % for transactions to the card holder, must be a deal here between Ryanair n Visa, i know you need to have a credit balance and no interest is paid to the card holder?

Still well done Ryanair in showing that you can turn a profit in this market place, just a shame about the Aer Lingus stake the cash balance would be about 3 billion or BA pension deficit !!

[al446]

See Airlines, Airports & Routes, post 5053.

[Skipness One Echo]

It is not a FACT in your second paragraph to say that they will have to
fly 'many more' passengers - its just your interpretation - in effect
they can try and improve yield from the same number of passengers.


Is the bit from "in effect" a FACT as well. I'm glad you're here to make sure we know what FACTS are and we're all grateful that you spell them in caps too.

The reason I know Ryanair have a problem with wheelchair users is my colleague worked all summer on the firm that runs wheelchairs to the aircraft and he was far from complimentary about Ryanair.

I reiterate my point that part of the reason that MOL is taking aircraft out of the UK is that he has hacked off so many people who will never fly 'em again. He has to put them into new markets where people haven't been screwed over by Ryanair TLC just yet. That's my opinion and I don't feel the need to shout FACT in big letters with it....

[befree]

Ryanair claim to make 118m profit in Q1
Q2 has always been very good for them
Now they expect Q1+Q2+Q3+Q4 profits to be at the low end of 200m-300m assuming yeilds and load factors.
That would point to around 100m euros profits for the last 3 quarters of the year. They will already have taken in the cash for most of the peak summer flights so the cash will now be at its peak for the year. Q3 & Q4 could both be loss making but not that big. What should scare the stockmarket is what happends next year. They may have 15% more capacity again and have to cut another 15% of fares to fill the planes. Income could be flat but they need to buy 15% more fuel.

[apaul]

Jet2's baggage limit is 22kg. Ryanair's restrictive and expensive baggage policy might be a handicap if it wants to fly more to the Canaries this winter as people tend to want to stay for a week or more.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Once again it is necessary to warn a few people that they do NOT have the right to use PPRuNe to lambast, abuse or use invective of any kind to further their own weird ambitions to prove, or try to prove, that they are better than anyone else in stating what is news, good news or bad news.

Smart arses, know-it-all's and winder upers are equally useless so cool it.

Stay on topic or the thread dies. Indeed, any more of the above and we will close the thread for a few days - to help concentrate the minds.

AA&R Mods

[Ametyst2]

Ryanair are dropping the Manchester to Shannon service from the end of October and transferring the frequencies to Liverpool to make the Liverpool to Shannon service a Daily operation once again.

[FutureCC]

Bags at Ryanair are only £20? Unless only one passenger is having the bags on his booking/only one passenger flying who wants more than one bag. Easyjet charge £18? And to fly BA, fair enough they give a generous baggage allowance, but the fare would be considerably higher. Aer Lingus is £15 for 20 kilos -which undercuts everyone; and the fares are cheaper with Aer Lingus.

Why have Ryanair written off the Aer Lingus stake? They still have it - and Aer Lingus haven't disappeared? What exactly have they done and what does it mean (please forgive that I don't understand what they have done)

My view, I always use Ryanair as they do offer the best value for money, I personally, have never (in many, many years) had a bad expereience - so I will keep using them. I can't speak for everyone, but in all of my flights - 189 people have left the 737 at the end satisfied.

I think regarding MOL moving the planes - either it is cheaper to offer the route from the other airport, rather than Dublin or Stansted (as most new bases or destinations always fly to Dublin or Stansted) or he just is playing his card against the goverments regarding the taxes?

Just to say, I want to be cabin crew - and the only airlines which are accepting new recruits are Ryanair and Easyjet, in fact Easyjet only is recruiting for Gatwick. So in the very close future, unless other airlines open up, I will be appying for Ryanair!

[Charlie Roy]

here has been an extensive campaign for Ryanair to return to Fuerteventura after a row with the local authorities.

Cllrcollins

This is being discussed already in the Ryanair thread.
But to answer your question, there seems to be no hope for Fuerteventura :(
The Ryanair route map is already showing 44 new routes to the Canary islands.

18 new routes from Gran Canaria [not a current Ryanair destination]
17 new new routes from Lanzarote [not a current Ryanair destination]
9 new routes from Tenerife South [already has 8 Ryanair routes]

... but alas nothing for Fuerteventura.

But if it's the Dublin to Fuerteventura route you're interested in, then I suppose you know Aer Lingus will operate this route next winter once weekly on Saturday afternoons.

[Flitefone]

Well said Mods, far too much pointless bad mouthing on this thread.

Too many chips on too many shoulders devalues the Prune.

FF

[czech spy]

Stansted - Brno cut to x4 per week this winter

[RYR738_driver]

Ermmmmmmmmmm, exactly which route map shows Ryanair flights to Gran Canaria and Lanzarote and the extra flights to tenerife because the Route map on the Ryanair website sure doesn't :ugh:

[Powerjet1]

Canary Island routes mentioned earlier, seem to have disappeared off the route map. Maybe they will return tomorrow after the news conference.

[mickyman]

Skipness

To answer your query - it is an aspiration surely of all
service providers in any sphere to increase yield.
Perhaps the U.K. market is just one of their European
targets and not the main cash-cow now.

Thankyou for your eulogy but I am not worthy.

MM

[sam1993]

Ermmmmmmmmm, well it did do earlier on today! They now seem to have removed it - perhaps waiting for the conference in Tenerife tomorrow.

[LGS6753]

The proposed Canary Islands routes make a lot of sense. The winter will throw up a lot of capacity on Ryanair's 'thin' routes, and they need to redeploy aircraft. Where better than a popular, year-round resort area where the likes of Monarch Scheduled are charging decent prices?

...and if they become bases those aircraft operating to the UK are 'removed' from the UK bases!!:8

[frfly]

Finally a bit more thought put into route developement. These routes will push up yields this winter.

Fingers crossed they announce at least TFS as a base, our STN aircraft have to go somewhere!

Rumours around suggest Greece and Cyprus are next on the cards for FR. This makes total sense, as no real LCC presence in Greece and a good market there with a weak national carrier.

Gone are the days where short sectors were the way forward for FR, remember FR offer the same as a lot of charter airlines in terms of capacity, it 189 seats. Therefore good yields on longer routes not only from fares but ancillary rev.

[frfly]

Fr always do this, upload to test the website, check the WebCheck tomorrow morning

[racedo]

er racedo is this information in the public domain? Link please http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif Either that or for someone who assures us he doesn't work for Ryanair you seem remarkably up to speed....
That IS a good price I agree given how heavily used and basic these 737s are.

Skippy If you were as quick reading the Q1 results (bottom of Page 10) as you were with the comments then you would have already seen it.

"Gross cash increased by €221.9m to €2,500.1m. The Group generated cash from operating activities of €291.8m and a further €65.6m from the sale proceeds of three Boeing 737-800 aircraft, which together partially funded capital expenditure in the quarter."

http://www.ryanair.com/site/about/invest/docs/2010/q1_2010_doc.pdf

[racedo]

Why have Ryanair written off the Aer Lingus stake? They still have it - and Aer Lingus haven't disappeared? What exactly have they done and what does it mean (please forgive that I don't understand what they have done)

FutureCC

Welcome

The reason they write them down is the value of the shares has declined so Stock Exchange rules require a company to revalue the shares down to their true value as that is they value they will receive if the shares are sold, the decline must be reported against profit, however if the share price recovers the company cannot show a profit.

It stops a company claiming that an asset they hold is worth more than it is giving an incorrect impression to potential investors.

[befree]

today Easyjet reported its Q3 results. The income per seat has increased by 9.3% as it now gets £60.72p per pax. Unlike ryanair it is growing slowly but getting greater turnover. Next year Easyjet could be the only airline making a profit in europe.

[Powerjet1]

Yes, all Canary Island routes previously mentioned, seem to appear in the online check-in drop down.

[VanBosh]

Massive expansion then, is there biggest route launch ever? 44 routes announced from 3 airports in 1 day?

[apaul]

The figure quoted on the Easyjet website is 'total revenue per seat increased by 10.9% to £51.42'. The statement also points out that the rise is linked to Easter being in Q3 this year. You also need to take into account the greater number of long routes to Greece, Turkey, Eygpt etc. But Easyjet does have a better route network and a better product and can charge more than Ryanair.

[VanBosh]

So 39 new routes from the Canary Islands. It doesnt say they will become bases but does say the aircraft will switch from Uk/Ireland so I assume they will be based there temporarily.

The glitch for the islands is that they say these routes are utilising the zero taxes and 100% discounted fees offered by Spanish Government, but if these are changed after the winter the routes will be removed.

So basically we will use the airport for free and if things improve and you try charge us a cent we will pull out.

[befree]

'total revenue per seat increased by 10.9% to £51.42'.

In the tables they had total reveue per pax. This is higher as it excludes empty seats. This is comparable with the 37 euros per pax on ryanair.

The stockmarket seems to like easyjets report with the shares up 3.7% at the moment. When fuel costs rise Easyjet can increase ticket price by £5 without losing too many pax but a £5 rise on a ryanair route would kill it.

Easyjet has hedged it fuel for the current year at a too high price. That will work out the system for next years results. I expect easyjet will be making a profit next year and Ryanair will be making a loss.

[F14]

So is TFS a winter base? The press release says "aircraft switched from UK to Canaries" ?

[apaul]

Despite the typical Ryanair bluster - Ryanair’s big expansion in the Canary Islands is due to “zero” tourist taxes in Spain and the 100% discount on airport charges this winter. This contrasts with the route cutbacks Ryanair has announced in the UK and Ireland where airport charges at Dublin and Stansted are increasing and the Irish and UK Governments have imposed suicidal tourist taxes of €10 and £10 respectively.' - the planes will be based in the UK and Dublin.

[Seljuk22]

No bases at LPA, ACE or TFS!
And 10 (DUB, SNN, PIK, LPL, EMA, BRS, BHX, BOH, STN and LTN) of these 16 (others are HHN, NRN, CRL, OPO, MAD and GRO) destination from these Canary airports are in the UK and Ireland.

[Charlie Roy]

Yesterday the route map was briefly showing routes to the Canaries from Edinburgh and Bergamo, but theses airports seem to have not been part of the Canaries expansion in the end.
Indeed, no aircraft will be based in the Canaries.
But ya, for the bases involved, a reutilisation of the aircraft to fly to the Canaries will in theory mean less passengers because of the longer sectors. But I suppose it's better than parked aircraft. What's more the airports will be glad of the new routes and of course its great for passengers wishing to travel to the Canaries.

[harer92]

hi what 737-800 (registration) will be operating LPL - PSA FR9626 on the 30th July (tomorrow)


thanks

harer92

[racedo]

today Easyjet reported its Q3 results. The income per seat has increased by 9.3% as it now gets £60.72p per pax. Unlike ryanair it is growing slowly but getting greater turnover. Next year Easyjet could be the only airline making a profit in europe.

Easyjet are on course to make 25-30 million in their year to end of September in addition they dropped 170 Million in cash during the quarter.

[CabinCrewe]

I thought EDI would have seen some of the action. Wonder why not...?

[Charlie Roy]

EDI and Bergamo had been on the map yesterday with routes to the Canaries, but they haven't made it to the announcement today it seems...

[RYR738_driver]

Sorry sam1993, guess I jumped the gun there.

Does anyone have anymore information about future routes from edinburgh, and the rumour that when RYR agreed to operate from EDI, BAA stated that they aren't allowed to compete with other airlines which is why there are no flights to Girona and Bergamo?

[Charlie Roy]

Ryanair opens 39 new winter routes | IOL (http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/business/eycwauojcwql/)

And it seems Prestwick is getting all the action.

Ryanair also announced that it was starting four new routes from Prestwick airport from October – to Alicante, Lanzarote, Gran Canaria, and Palma in Majorca.

A fifth new service from Prestwick – to Ibiza – will start on March 10.

Ryanair is also increasing the frequency of flights from Prestwick to Faro in Portugal, Malaga in Spain and Tenerife.

[FutureCC]

I think Ryanair will still make a profit, more routes and high load factors - and of course, the extra charges! Easyjet are not expanding, which I wonder is the wrong move. If money is getting tight, and people still want to go on holiday; which they do! - certainly the cheapest flights will be used.

Many thanks for the welcome Racedo! Will FR sell what they have in Aer Lingus? It seems clear they don't want a merger, but does that rule out other airlines? Such as Lufthansa - for example...