Which licence - JAA, ICAO, FAA, WHY?

[tshaibani]

Hi there, I'm kind of confused as to where I want to take my path to. I haven't started with ground school yet, because unlike other less fortunate people, I can live and work both in Europe and in the USA. Can anyone give advice as to what will work to my benefit? FAA or JAA? I'm purely looking at the job and salary prospects in the near future. You can also mail to: [email protected]
Thanks a million!!!

[WX Man]

Let me get this straight... you have the right to live and work in the USA and you are asking about working in the UK?

I would kill to be in your position. Get yourself an FAA licence and find a job over there... unless you fancy spending 12 months and £30,000 trying to get into the industry.

[tshaibani]

WX Man, you seem the first one to come up with an answer. They should give you a scholarship for going straight to the point!Why is it that you'd choose to do an FAA? Is it the money or the chances of getting a job?
At least everything is becoming clear at once.Thanks.

[willbav8r]

I am (was) in the same fortunate position. Chose the US for the following;

-Cheaper.
-FAA license more readily acceptable worldwide than JAA (IMHO).
-Nicer place to learn.
-Instructing jobs more plentiful.
-Class 1 unrestricted eyesight correction (no longer a factor in my case as dioptres limit lowered in UK).
-Weather is better, but there are places for true challenges (IMC).
-Better birds! (IMHO).

Just the facts ma'am. Honest.

[inyoni]

If you have a green card possibilty the US is the way to go - see my posting in Instructors forum regarding the looming shortage of instrucors in the US!

[This message has been edited by inyoni (edited 24 January 2001).]

[WX Man]

Did pen a really good reply, but the computer shut down on me and all was lost. Oh well, here goes again...

Q. Why is it that I would chose FAA?

A. Because I cannot justify spending 6 months doing groundschool for the sole purpose of passing exams. I'm sorry, but that seems to be what a large amount of the groundschool is used for... it seems to serve no other purpose. I've recently done my CAA PPL/IR exams, and that was full of the most irrelevant c*ck I've ever seen. How can synoptic charts be relevant to aviation meteorology? Even if they were, you'd have a job getting hold of them! Likewise 80% of the air law syllabus. Or maybe the standard width of runway markings is useful to pilots?

Q. Is it the money?

A. No! I actually think that I could earn more money over my whole career if I were to work in this country than if I were to work in the USA.

Q. Is it the ease of getting a job?

A. Probably not... but that being said, I'm lead to believe that there is a better chance of getting a first job in the USA than there is in the UK. Although in the UK, it is possible (though unlikely) to start with an airline at 250h and fresh CPL/IR.

On top of that, I just think that the flying I'd do elsewhere would be so much more challenging than the flying I'd be doing in the UK. I want to be a pilot, but I really don't want to take the sort of sh*te that the CAA and the JAA throw at us wannabes in pursuit of the ATPL. I would rather emigrate than do 6 months of groundschool... it's not that I'm afraid of hard work, it's just that I cannot see why I should put up with 6 months of groundschool (packed to the gills with irrelevant babble) when it serves no purpose in enhancing safety.

To summarise, FAA licenced pilots fly many thousands of hours every day. Yet do you see American 'airplanes' falling out of the sky? Clearly their training system has not failed them. Quite why the JAA thought that producing a set of learning objectives 2 inches thick would better our standards of safety, I really don't know.

[taildragger2]

GET YOURSELF OFF TO THE U.S........
If I had the chance to work in the states I wouldn't think twice, more flying, less ****ty groundschool and much nicer Wx!!
At the mo im half way through JAA ATPL groundschool and its taken me nearly a year to get this far despite constant work. The problem is that even if you learn the whole course inside out your not assured exam passes because the bastards in Europe keep changing the learning objectives hence questions in the exam crop up on subjects you never knew existed! The U.S is cheaper to train in and live in! Some say its second rate trainning and anyone can be a big jet pilot in the states but at the end of the day an aircraft is an aircraft right? Anyway Im sure as soon as the UK realises the lunacy of JAR we'll go back to national licensing and that means even if you only hold FAA qualifications it will be much easier to convert to CAA. You can now stand back and laugh at myself and others stuck with JAA while you get your ass out to the States! Dont think twice....................................................Tai lwinds......Taildragger2

[JJflyer]

Well then.

If i had to start again I would chose a JAR aproved school in Europe for the following reasons:

- After doing all the groundschools in US and flying large jets around the world I am not willing nor able to spend 6 months again is schools in order to get a full ATPL. This would be an option but as i am employed I cannot justify the income loss.

- Money... Currently USD is skyhigh and thus it is not al that much cheaper to fly in US anymore. Add living expences and you are looking at equal prices.

-Opportunities... In EU you can possibly find an airline job with 300 hours total in US you'll need to have a greencard in addition to 1000TT and 100 multi.

Look at this option.

Get a JAR commercial multi-engine Instrument with the frozen ATPL stuff. Then go to US and convert to a FAA ASEL AMEL COMM INST. Obtain your CFI CFII MEI and one of those Visas that allows you to work in US for X amount of years and build hours while you send your CV's around the globe.

JJ

[tshaibani]

JJ actually has a good point, the initial method I intended to use. The problem is tht I consulted the FAA in the states, and regardless of the license you have, only a PPL will be issued without you having to go through the exam again. How about the rest? Well, they just make you go through the exams again like in Europe.

Also was mentioned that the costs from ab initio-ATPL is very expensive. From my research, the cheapest I've come out with is $35,000 and 1500 TT @ www.flysoutheastern.com (http://www.flysoutheastern.com) for those that want to look into it. The catch is that you'll obtain 300TT where you'll then teach (guaranteed)as a flight instructor for $9.50-$11.50 an hour til you get your hours. I'm also visiting Comair (South eastern regional)in Florida next month, then I'll be able to tell you about the place itself. They charge about $40,000 for 300 TT with Comm./IR/ and all that. Upon completion (as advertised in major magazines), you'll be guaranteed an interview with Comair. They had advertised for a direct track internship program, but doesn't exsist ("anymore" the say).

The only good thing about the states is that they're really (really!!) desperate for instructors, building your time is not a problem in this country.

Do you really have to get all those instructors' licenses to get a job (in the US)?!

Is anyone in a relationship, and has the problem that his/her other half is on the other side of the ocean? Are FAA schools in Europe as cheap as they are in the States? This is the main reason why I was confused as to what license I wanted to obtain! Incredible how women can jeopardize your career path. I guess it's the price you pay. :-)

Thanks a lot for all your input guys.

PS. No SHE CAN'T COME HERE!!! Non aviation related.

[JJflyer]

Regarding those Exams... Well You can handle Commercial and Instrument writtens in a week. A friend of mine got his FAA ASEL AMEL COMM INST in 2 months including the CFI CFII and fundamentals of instructing writtens. It then took him and additional 6 weeks to get CFI/II and MEI. He had a job on the spot.
Most of the big US schools sponsor Instructors as most of the locals are hired to Regionals before the ink has dried on their certificate.

JJ

[AirNikkor]

I have a little question here. I am considering going to college over the border (I live near Canada) and there is an aviation program at this particular college. My question is, since I am an American, will I be elligible for a Canadian license (up to commercial). Also, would I have to go to Canada to do check rides, medicals, etc.? Is it possible to convert a Canadian license into an FAA license? Also, do airlines care what country you get your license from?

Thank you in advance!:)

[flyboyike]

Yes, you will need to do your checkrides, medicals etc in Canada. Yes, you can convert your Canadian certificate to an FAA certificate. You will need to take the appropriate written and practical tests as well as obtain an FAA medical. Airlines do care what certificate you have. Canadian carriers want a Canadian certificate, US ones want FAA. You will be in the unique position in that you will have both. Be advised, however, that Canadian carriers require you to have at least a Landed Immigrant status (Canadian Green Card, basically) to be able to work for them. Out of curiosity, where near Canada do you live? I ask, because Canadian flight training has traditionally NOT been cheaper than US.

[AirNikkor]

Thanks for the reply.
I live just over the border in Washington State. The flight traning is done at University College of Fraser Valley and Coastal Pacific Aviation (CPA) but I will be attending a private university for further general education requirements (I plan to major in international studies).

I myself was wondering about US flight costs vs. Canadian flight costs. Something tells me US is cheaper :confused:

[Sunny_Always]

I'm planning to do my fATPL in the US as I have relatives there. However, I've heard that CAAS(Singapore) does not recognize the American licence and a conversion is needed to fly for SIA. How about in Europe?

The problem I'm facing here is that the Singapore government put a age limit(26) on locals so as to 'encourage' us to join the airforce. That's why I plan on getting the licence and hours myself(as an instructor maybe?) and finish college just in time to come back and join SIA.

Know of any good flying schools in NJ?

[B200Drvr]

To the best of my knowledge all license holders are required to do a validation for SIA, any thoughts??

[Sunny_Always]

I've got friends who went to Australia and their CASA licence needs no conversion. I think the British licence is good as well.

[Commander1]

P.S im not sure whether to go for a FAA license or JAA, which is more sought after, does the US have better prospects and job market than the UK etc?

Is it more expensive to obtain the JAA license?

Cheers :)

[scroggs]

Working in America (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53602&highlight=working+jobs+work+america).

Got a Green Card or a US passport? You will struggle without them!

Scroggs

[Commander1]

I know i'll need one, i know that i cannot work on a M-1 visa but i just need to know if i could be entitled to a job over there when i graduate as an airline pilot, would airlines be willing to take me on and offer me a work permit or would i need to marry an American lol (joking) :eek:

Is the job market big over there? Or is it worth my while just getting JAA license?

[scroggs]

No, they will not offer you a job. They have more than enough qualified US citizens ready and willing to be employed - currently on lower salaries than are available here. The US airline industry was far harder hit than the EU one by 9/11, and they laid off (furloughed) tens of thousands of pilots, many of whom have not yet been re-employed. They do not welcome foreigners trying to muscle in on their job market!

That job market is finally showing some signs of improvement, but it is still far less active than in the EU. If you can obtain US citizenship (and marriage may be your only option), you may be in with a chance. There's not much hope otherwise.

Scroggs

[Commander1]

Is it possible to obtain the FAA license then convert? If so is it expensive to convert to JAA? Does it take alot of time?

I have the option of going for either the FAA or JAA license.

Orlando flight training quoted me around £20K for the full pro pilot prog to FAA standards only and that doesn't include ATPL.

I take it in the EU its alot higher paid aswell?

Just wondering what i'd be better off doing, worth my while i mean to get my monies worth.

:)

[scroggs]

Licence Conversion to JAA (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=231486)

Converting from FAA to JAA is not cheap. I assume by I take it in the EU its alot higher paid aswell? you are referring to jobs? Well, not once you get past the commuter airlines. In the USA, it is still the norm that a pilot goes via instructing, then possibly air taxi or night freight, to a turboprop commuter airline and then to a jet job - by then with a few thousand hours to his or her name. There is no equivalent to the European system of taking pilots who have just graduated from flight school and putting them in the right seat of a B737.

Once beyond the commuter level, the pay in the USA is generally greater than in the EU. The differences aren't as great as they once were, and there is quite a bit of variation within the EU itself. Currently, the best paid European airlines are probably KLM/Air France and Lufthansa. BA is a little down the scale. The maximum earnings within these airlines may be over £150k for a senior captain - more for trainers - but you'd need to be in the business for 30+ years to get there.

Scroggs

[Commander1]

Thanks Scroggs, you've been a great help :)

I must admit i dont know a whole lot about aviation demands for pilots and how licensing works etc. Sorry if i seem ignorant.

I wouldn't mind working as an instructor for a while to build on those hours as long as theres something at the end of the tunnel for me.

I have been debating this for a while though - the whole US or UK thing.

In your honest opinion do you think its better to get a FAA license and work over there as a pilot? (If my boyfriend and i decide to get married then) :uhoh:

I also heard the cost of living in the US was much higher than here in the UK, do you have any experiance of this?

Thank you for your help :)

[bluepeely]

150k!!Bet you wouldn't even rise out of your pit for that scroggs :confused:

[Commander1]

I spoke to NAC and they advised me of this course. http://www.naples-air-center.com/dev/index.php?view=67 gaining both the FAA and JAA pilots licenses.

Just wondering what peoples thoughts would be on this

I was looking into other flight schools such as

http://www.flyoft.com/

http://www.naiasc.com/

http://www.aerodynamics-malaga.com/

Thats 4 so far, bearing in mind I have no experiance on how to judge these schools i was wondering if you guys could give advice? Naples Air Centre are the only ones who offer both licenses at around $36,000 where as with the rest you have to choose either one or the other.

:confused:

[scroggs]

Is your boyfriend a US citizen? If so, you may be able to get a Green Card once - if - you marry. You should investigate the US Embassy website (and the US Immigration website) for details. Without a Green Card, you have no chance of legal employment in the USA.

The cost of living in the USA is generally less than the UK. In many places, it is far less. Again, if your boyfriend is from the States, he can give you all the information you need.

An FAA licence is cheaper to obtain than a JAA one, but of no use whatsoever in the EU. It is accepted in those parts of the world that need expatriate pilots (as is the JAA licence). Wherever you go, the pilots jobs market is extremely competitive. There is no easy way into flying in any country.

You have a great deal of research to do!

Scroggs

[youngskywalker]

No use in the EU except on all the N reg corporate stuff based in Europe. Difficult to get job on them but far from impossible :ok:

[Commander1]

Hi Scroggs, thats true will need to investigate further.

Im curious to know north of the US in Canada I know I dont need a visa to study there for a any license.

Do you know much about living in Canada too and their licensing?

Im only keeping my options open to North America and the UK.

Thanks for your help :)

[topguncharlie]

hi there i was reading your post and though i could help you if u have a us passport/greencard i would go to delta training in sanford fl

the uk is ok to fly but you will find the only job you will get is with someone like flybe on turbo props inless you will fund your own rating which would be about £32,000 on a 737 plus all you ratings your looking at total cost in the uk to get a good job of about £90,000 where if you can work in the usa with reg are not as bad you could get in a 90 seater jet for about $70,000 the pay is not great at the start but the uk is the same inless you have that rating type paid by yourself plus the uk is having alot of low cost battles just now so airline are going to go where the usa is booming with business and there is so many jobs eg comair is taking on 40 pilots a month every month till 2008 now id i can be anymore help feel free to give me a shout i have done the us training and jaa and usa is the way forward plus you can fly in asia under faa with air india who have a short fall of 3000 pilots by 2009

[Effee]

Hi all, I am about to start my flight training, however I am still choosing which country I am going to do it in. What are the differences in getting a FAA (US) or a ICAO (Canada/Australia) And what differences does it make in getting jobs?
I hear that having a FAA licence is much more useful and recognised than a ICAO licence since more planes are registered in the US, and you never know when you might have to pick up a plane in the US..

I'm at a dilemma, which to choose? :ugh: