Overflight permits (Merged)

[mtogw]

Can anyone out there help me, we have been using an agency for appying for overflight permits,
and now I'm going to do this myself, I'm trying to find out if someone could kindly give me a copy
of a message or the format for applying for block permits.
Is there a standard format that everyone uses??
I've not done or seen the actual requests before, so consider me clueless!!
Any Guidance will be much appreciated :ok:

[crjlover]

I always used free text, and never had any troubles.

[F'Wx]

Yup... Last one i sent was basically free text format as below..

Message ID: 281424
PLEASE CAN YOU ARRANGE THE FOLLOWING OVERFLIGHTS ON OUR BEHALF:
LAD-NBO
-------
DROC O/FLT
BURUNDI O/FLT
RWANDA O/FLT
TANZANIA O/FLT
A/C TYPE : B747-200F
A/C REG :
OWNER/OPRTR :
CALLSIGN :
ROUTING :
SCHEDULE :
CARGO LOAD :

Hope it helps :)

[F'Wx]

Yup, free text should be fine... Last one i sent was as below, minus the details

Message ID: 281424
PLEASE CAN YOU ARRANGE THE FOLLOWING OVERFLIGHTS ON OUR BEHALF:
LAD-NBO
-------
DROC O/FLT
BURUNDI O/FLT
RWANDA O/FLT
TANZANIA O/FLT
A/C TYPE :
A/C REG :
OWNER/OPRTR :
CALLSIGN :
ROUTING : LUANDA/NAIROBI
SCHEDULE : ED LAD 02MAY 1245Z EA NBO 02MAY 1645Z
CARGO LOAD : LAD TO NBO NIL LOAD FERRY SECTOR

[mtogw]

Thanks for that folks I'll shoot off a message on AFTN to the relevant CAA and see what happens, much appreciated.

[F'Wx]

Why my message went through twice is beyond me.. But no problems :)

[merlinxx]

What are you looking for, ad hoc or block permits, traffic rights etc. there is a heck of a lot of difference. Luanda to Nairobi, who's gonna pay the enroute charges etc. There is a basic standard format and protocol, no free form, simple you pose the question, and you supply the answer, they grant the permission.

Operator XXX ABC Airlines
Requests Overflight and/or landing permission for
the following operation/s
Flight Number/s AO001etc

Make it easy to read and in the simple (request) question and (response)
answer. You are asking and are giving the answer the folks at the other end are gonna ask.

Always specify the scheduled FIR/published territorial boundary enter/exit points/times.

Be honest about your cargo! "general" can be assumed to be 7.62mm stuff.

[VP8]

Some countries like a set layout for applications like Thailands
FF VTBAYAYX VTBAYAYD
APPLICATION FORM FOR PERMISSION FOR FOREIGN AIRCRAFT ENGAGED IN
NON-SCHEDULED, CHARTER FLIGHT
----------------------
1. APPLICANT NAME:
PERMANENT ADDRESS:
TEL: FAX: SITA: AFTN:
BUSINESS CONNECTION WITH THE AIRCRAFT:
2. AIRCRAFT
2.1 OWNER/OPERATOR:
PERMANENT ADDRESS:
TEL:
2.2 NUMBER: 01 AND TYPE: ( ) FIXED WING OR ( ) HELICOPTER?
2.3 NATIONALITY AND REGISTRATION MARK:
2.4 FLIGHT RULE AND STATUS ( ) IFR OR ( ) VFR?
THE APPLICATION FOR HELICOPTER AND VFR AIRCRAFT MUST
BE SUBMITTED NOT LESS THAN 15 DAYS IN ADVANCE OF THE
INTENDED DATE OF OPERATION.
3. PURPOSES LANDING IN THE KINGDOM FOR:
4. ROUTE SCHEDULE: SEE ITEM 6
5. AERODROME TO LANDING IN THE KINGDOM: BANGKHOK
6. DATE/TIMES ARR/DEP DATE ........../MONTH........YEAR........
7. PASSENGER(S) - NIL
DISEMBARKATION NUMBER...........FARE.....................
CATEGORIES ...............................
( SUCH AS AFFINITY GROUP, INCLUSIVE TOUR ETC.)
NAME OF CHARTERER .............................
POINT(S) OF EMBARKATION ......................
EMBARKATION NUMBER ................FARE............
CATEGORIES ............................
(SUCH AS AFFINITY GROUP, INCLUSIVE TOUR ETC.)
NAME OF CHARTERER ..........................
POINT(S) OF DISEMBARKATION .................
8. FREIGHT
UNLOADING DESCRIPTION ..............................
QUANTITY .................................
POINT(S) OF LOADING ......................
CONSIGNOR ................................
CONSIGNEE.................................
LOADING: VTBD
DESCRIPTION:
QUANTITY:
POINT(S) OF UNLOADING:
CONSIGNOR:
CONSIGNEE:
SIGNATURE OF APPLICANT ...............
DATE OF APPLICATION:


VEEPS

[mtogw]

Thanks for all the input...
I'm applying directly to a CAA for overflight permits (Block) for a regular scheduled pax operation so shouldn't have any problem, traffic rights etc are not an issue.

[the bald eagle]

Operator XXX ABC Airlines
Requests Overflight and/or landing permission for
the following operation/s
Flight Number/s AO001etc

Merlin my good man...With all the years you've been doing this job do you really expect to get away with that format with The likes of India,Russia,China and that old chestnut honkers :=

Shame on you old boy!!! :O :p

ps - still think you're one of the best pruners around :)

[acmi48]

on this thread,how many of you have your airlines charged by the egyptian caa for aftn transmission charges for your applications in africa passing thru cairo centre..this has been a perennial thorn in our side for 20-30 plus years

interested to hear how any you may have got around this

thks
:ok:

[the bald eagle]

Easy - Ignore the bill!

I worked for a flight planning company who simply just chucked it in the bin if we ever got such a bill and never took any flak for doing so!

I suspect you're getting these bills for ATC filing to H????ZPZX or ZTZX or any other "H" coded aftn address ?
the other way around this is to give your local agent at the airport that's ICAO starts with "H" the ATC plan and let him file it locally or if going in or out of Europe when filing to IFPU also send it as an IFPS (Supplement addresses)and add the "H"AFTN addresses you wish to file to .
Then E/CTRL will send it to them(My understanding is that E/Ctrl do not get charged for these addresses nor does any other AFTN address that ends ZPZX/ZTZX/YAYX etc etc)

[merlinxx]

All transit AFTN traffic (even FPL traffic for departures at HEXX airfields) not generated by an ATS unit is charged as class B traffic, thus is a chargeable item. Do as BE suggest, if departing HEXX airfields get local agent to file, don't file from your auto file system. For permits, route through your agent via Email, fax or SITA. HECA centre is a nightmare & they've been doing this forever, trouble is what they are doing is legal. Greece stopped doing this some 15/17 years ago.

[the bald eagle]

But it does keep the Egyptian aviation econmany going :} :E

[acmi48]

re cai aftn centre-thanx for the replies

at some stage icao/iata must react to close down this pirate money making scheme,however the aea remains toothless on this one

how do atc flight plans qualify as class b traffic is beyond me..and to have to pay a third party to transmit same is unbeleivable

have any of you actually been punished for not paying these bills or faced any unsafe situations as a result..

brgs

[merlinxx]

Class B traffic is that which is not directly generated by an ATS unit. When getting your agent to prefile, he is filing at an ATS unit thus the enroute transmission is from an ATS unit. As I said before this is a legal charging process, and really dates back to the days when all traffic was via telegraph/teletype, where by the traffic was received and retransmitted manually. Inbound via punch tape, punch tape fed into transmission machine and address's manually typed.

Believe me CAI centre was still like this in the 80s & early 90s, I know I filed from there! You can't ignore as the Egyptian CAA will route all bills through your agent, and they will (have done) restrict access from your originator due to non payment.

This is a disputed point, but the redress procedure can take up to 24 months.

Been there, seen it, done it!

[the bald eagle]

Ever tried to re invoice this to your customer after 2 years?
seen it,been it,done it - and still never got the bloody money!

[merlinxx]

Simple, only ever use an agent, then when the ECAA ctc you or the operator direct, swing them back to the agent. Remember the NIVA situ. I got that sorted with no probs. 'tis like CAI has always been, get in there, know the folks, have a history & a few Stella's and no sweat.

The rule is "DO NOT FILE REMOTELY FROM A NON ATS UNIT/ADDRESS"

I rest my case for now, forever, for life (sorry not much left) even when M'd Fayed has sold Harrods, so there! I'm off to jetblast for some sense. Marsalama y'all

[acmi48]

merlin and bald eagle-thanks for your comments.. there are still some today who maybe have not met this situation yet..for our part .auto file.became a way of life so we are going back to basics.. we to had dealins with niva/eja along the way..amazing how many brothers and sisters in egypt were spawned with thier own business from niva..

for the record..when niva ceased trading we got a panic aftn from ecaa begging us to find an agent to handle our class b traffic..wish i had never followed up ..

[the bald eagle]

Has Nile Valley (NIVA) ceased trading if so when? I haven't had much traffic thru Egypt lately but always used NIVA for clearences etc:(

[merlinxx]

NIVA is still up and running. Back in the mid 90s the El Tambouly brothers had a dif of opinion, thus Hassan put his resources and backing into EJA. PM me for more if needed. I moved my support to EJA as I had known Hassan for very many years. NIVA was also an airline, though few people knew of this.

[the bald eagle]

Thanks for the info..me to moved to EJA with Dayaa as Nabils mob some what let me down royally with a medivac thru ASW.
I found NIVA ok with CAI & LXR but anywhere else and they were crap at best!

[acmi48]

bald eagle-merlinxx

we use tiger aviation services.. not happy with system but pleased with their services for our airline

thks again for your experiences..

[merlinxx]

Hey Tiger are fine, I know the folks and yes I'd recommend them as I do for EJA etc, it really needs someone to visit CAI to se how they have to work, it's worth the time/money. I also use an Egyptian off shoot in Morocco called Airline Services Experts ASE, they are excellent for air carrier & BIZAV ops. If you need, PM for ctc data/name etc.

[Moaiad]

Try using HADID in Egypt.

[the bald eagle]

Why use Hadid?

They only do what everyone else does and that's use an agent

Besides Hadid have got very expensive of late

[sirinx]

Jeppesen book 1, Entry requirements - that's where you will find the necessary contact info and a list of items required in the application, plus the requested documents (if any). Works for majority of the countries.

[Moaiad]

That's why I recommended using HADID.
My company has been using HADID for many years and we are so pleased with their services.

[Junipah]

Does anyone know if the above mentioned Jeppesen book is around online somewhere for a cheeky download?

[the bald eagle]

That's why I recommended using HADID.
My company has been using HADID for many years and we are so pleased with their services


Is that because you work for them?

[Moaiad]

NO. That is because they are really good

[airops78]

Hi all,

Can anyone out there clear up a couple of questions i've got reference overflight permits:


Do you need to apply for overflight of a particular country, if the FIR over it is controlled by another country?
If the UIR is controlled by another country and you are flying within the UIR levels (for example Rwanda's UIR is controlloed by Tanzania, however the FIR which goes up to FL240 is controlled by Rwanda) do you need to apply to the country that you are overflying or the one that controls the UIR?
How far from the coast do you need to be before you don't require an overflight.....heard it may be 50 nm but not sure?Many thanks

[merlinxx]

Yes, you maybe in the published FIR/UFIR which cover many sovereign territories, but the O/F permission is for the Sovereign Territories. Check your charts for West Africa, and compare the FIR/UFIR boundries with those boundries of the Sovereign Territories.

Also if over water, BOM FIR is an example, you do not need a permit to transit the FIR if you are not within it's declared territory, ie the 'off coast' territorial waters, in that case a FPL will suffice (or should do) so ensure that the FIR centre is copied on the FPL at filing.

[airops78]

Thank you merlinxx much appreciated.

[the bald eagle]

Best bet if flying over places like West Africa is to apply for a permit for the countries earth that you are flying over and send a notification to the controlling FIR that covers the airspace

That should cover youe ass;)

TBE

[the bald eagle]

Yeah & expensive with it