Qantas 787's

[Sandy Freckle]

Rumour doing the traps is that at a recent board meeting it was decided that mainline would get ALL of the 787's and J* would get the ALL of the A330's.

Sounds like there might be some sense... but this IS Qantas....

Any truth to it?

[TwinNDB]

There are similar RUMOURS to this effect doing the run at the moment. The most plausible response is that the J* model (read low cost) will only continue to work with a common fleet type and crew hopefully operating both rather than two types.

Having said that, there has just been training slots announced in QF for the 330 so who knows?

Twin.

On the downside J* could get all of them and they'll be wetleased back to us :{ . Oh well, there's always Cathay :hmm:

[Z Force]

And further to that, have Qantas been in discussion with Boeing lately regarding 777's??

[Avid Aviator]

QANTAS are always in discussion with Airbus and Boeing about aircraft; a bit like boys browsing the boat classifieds or girls walking through the handbag section at DJs.
B787 decision will be interesting, as the QANTAS group (I hate that term) will NOT have two pay/condition scales for the one type; no prize for guessing which level they will seek to impose. However, I've heard there will be no board decisions on any major expenditure/aircraft allocations etc until the APA bid is finalised. So I suspect this one may be more wishful thinking by QF drivers hoping for QF T&Cs on the B787, rather than a Jet*wetlease arrangement on the ones with red tails.

[alangirvan]

Wonder if Qantas Board will be looking over the Tasman at Zeal320 operation of A320s on behalf of Freedom and AirNZ. Same group of pilots. Different FAs. Different style of cabin service.

[blow.n.gasket]

I wonder if the same Qantas board will be looking through the Classifieds for a new job when the APA deal falls over?:bored:

[woftam]

I posted 8th Feb on another thread:

"OK, this is a rumour network right?
Try this one on for size. A yet to be announced delay in the B787 to J* (and everyone else) will mean J* is "forced" to take ALL the A330's from mainline to service it's expansion.
CCQ and all that.
Mainline gets ALL the B787's when they arrive. Already "Boeing" friendly outfit with experience on similar types.
Jetstar remains all Airbus/CCQ. A330/A320 and whatever else.(A380?)
I know "tell him he's dreamin".
Just a "rumour" I've heard. "

Maybe the Board thought it was a good idea?
:)

[Big Unit]

Does anyone know an approx delivery date/schedule for the 787 for qf/jet*.

[Bula]

why would we want to fly a boeing :oh:

[cunninglinguist]

Bula, how many hours have you got :}

Unit, 1st 787 for Jet* due to be delivered August 2008, we have heard no different ( except on here )

At somewhere in the region of 1.5-2 million per annum extra in tech crew costs alone for QF to operate them, per A/C, you would think the chances of at least the original 14 not going to Jeffstar would be remote.

[mrpaxing]

qf could negotiate a new hourly rate for the 787 and leave the A332's at J* (transfer the rest of the A333 in time to J*). given the high hourly rate QF has vs J*on the A330's this could save them a bit. just another way of economics.:rolleyes: :cool:

[Poto]

Interesting rumour doing the rounds that QF (not Onestar) will actually introduce the A/C into australia. :confused:

Running an LCC with multiple types will get expensive- does not gel with the model?

Who knows:confused:

[woftam]

And don't forget the B777's from '09! ;)

[Wingspar]

A reasonable person might see the introduction of a new aircraft type as a marketing opportunity to relaunch the airline! Seeing QF's main competitors will be employing premium products on the 787, to allow Jetstar to introduce this aircraft would be a tremendous opportunity lost. I'm surprised that the marketing man GD would not take advantage of this. The coincident timing of the A380 as well could see a complete overhaul of the QF product at minimal cost comparitively speaking.

Particularly with the ageing nature of the QF product, something needs to be done relatively quickly before the brand is put at risk. Certainly the rumour in this thread makes sense.

[YesTAM]

Pardon me for being cynical, but "buying" a lot of slots on aircraft production lines, could be a way of deferring profits couldn't it? Deposits would be treated as Capital (and not expense). As far as the shareholders would know, the dividend pool would be reduced by the amount of the deposits.

Now if the company buying Qantas were to simply sell off those slots, I wonder what the value would be? Would it be considerably more than Qantas paid in its initial deposit? Of course in additon, the premium on the deposit would not show in Qantas's books would it? Since it would be assumed by the auditors that Qantas was going to go through with the purchase wouldn't it?

Such a strategy could give rise to confusion among pilots (seemingly apparent on Pprune) about all these purchases of seemingly a lot of different aircraft types and who was going to get what, and when, and with who?

What if the purchases contain an element of speculation and there is not necessarily a commitment to following through with all the purchases, but instead sell the slots to the highest bidder?

While such a transaction is certainly legal, the value of the slots wouldn't show on QF's books, and only appear as extraordinary items when the slots were actually sold....but if the books (like the company) were private by then who would know?

Such speculation would of course be groundless if someone could tell me that Qantas is deeply involved in initial provisioning for each new type, training scads of staff in their maintenance and handling, and buying the tooling necessary for the whole shebang.....Are they?

[Bula]

hahaha :ok:

All I know is my instructor describes a boeing as an airbus in Direct Law :)

[alangirvan]

Running an LCC with multiple types will get expensive- does not gel with the model?


Lots of LCCs have more than one type - J* started with 717s. EasyJet has 737s and A319s, JetBlue has A320s and E190s. And anyway the multiple types would only operate during the transition period.

If J* does stay with A330s, that would mean a rethink on J* plans to fly to Europe since the A330s would not such good planes out of SIN to Rome etc? I know German airlines like LTU use A332 between Dusseldorf/Munich and Asia, but 787s will be better.

[neville_nobody]

The idea of QF selling off their 787 slots has done the rounds a bit often popping up in newspaper articles of late as one of things the APA could spin money off.

However QF will need to spend some money on new aircraft soon as they can't keep running around with what they've got forever. Since they are enjoying some good times at the moment it would be wise for a responsible manager to outlay some money into capital expenditure for the future.

I would imagine that the 777 boat has already sailed for Qantas really they should have jumped on that one 10 years ago and they should never had touched the A330. The 787 could be a winner hopefully it's introduction will be better organised than the the A330!

[theheadmaster]

Bula, what I wouldn't do to be able to flick a switch and fly my airbus in direct law on finals...

A330 is a great aircraft to operate, but a dog to fly on finals (in my personal opinion).

[domo]

would imagine that the 777 boat has already sailed for Qantas really they should have jumped on that one 10 years ago and they should never had touched the A330. The 787 could be a winner hopefully it's introduction will be better organised than the the A330!

werent the a330's tied into the 380's so they got a very good deal playing the manufacture off against each other

they very good at that after doing it for years with there workforce

787 test flight circa august 2007

[CAYNINE]

To theheadmaster,

Stop moving the stick!!

[Taildragger67]

Neville Nobody,

However QF will need to spend some money on new aircraft soon as they can't keep running around with what they've got forever. Since they are enjoying some good times at the moment it would be wise for a responsible manager to outlay some money into capital expenditure for the future.

You're making something of an assumption there, sport!

[B772]

A Supa Dupa lightweight 2 class B777-200ELR for nonstop to LHR and JFK is on the drawing board at Boeing.

Features include B787 style interior and Panasonic IFE system plus some other goodies.

[Taildragger67]

IMHO, the problem with all the idea of the 'supa dupa' Tripler is that there would be a very limited customer base for such an aircraft. Let's think who would want an aircraft with such long legs:

- Qantas - maybe 15?
- BA - maybe 10? (if that - given they now only operate to one city (Sydney) in Oceania)
- Virgin - maybe 6?
- Air NZ - maybe 5?
- might Air France want a few to operate direct Paris - Noumea/Papeete? ok, maybe 8, then.

Other European carriers don't, IMHO, give much of a toss about operating to Australia and so are unlikely to invest; same goes for US carriers (who are happy to operate as now via a West Coast hub). Carriers based at intermediate ports (ie. Asia, Middle East) don't need the legs.

My point is that 45-50 airframes might not be enough to justify the development cost.

Then again, if Air India or some US carriers decided that they needed some to operate between India and the US, and there was a strong case that the type could improve the economics of direct S.E Asia - US runs, there might be more to it...

European carriers can already operate to all global destinations aside from Australia/Oceania with existing equipment.

[theheadmaster]

Ha Ha Ha...

Yes things are usually better when I take my hand off it. ;)

[Angle of Attack]

The problem is Jetstar International are flat out keeping Captains at the moment, they are all leaving because of the $hit conditions on offer. The rumour has commenced because training Captains have said that in the current conditions, Jetstar is incapable of launching a new type. Case in Note an Emirates Captain joined Jet* and his first line sector Sydney -> Honolulu, he just resigned then made his way back to Dubai, cause he was fed up with them after one sector! Take heart! It means we are and I can guarantee shortly that we will be all in demand! The Multi Crew License is just a symptom that pilots are running short! :ok:

[B772]

Taildragger67. There is little development cost for the B777-200ELR, 85% of the work has been done. There is no new certification requirements.

The QF requirements in the RFP are quite demanding but Boeing and GE are confident they can be met and expect to make a formal offer to QF in late August.

Boeing expect to sell 100 B777-200ELR's within 3 years of its launch. There are a number of carriers including SQ, CX, TG, DL and CO you have not mentioned.

Four of the five carriers you have suggested may be interested in the a/c did not appear on the Boeing ''handout".

[Going Boeing]

Taillie

A lot of the new technology enhancements for the ELR will be incorporated into all B777 models resulting in fuel savings and keeping the Tripler competitive with Airbus' proposed A350 XWB. I think that Boeing has to make these enhancements otherwise the B777 production run would end prematurely.

[alangirvan]

Boeing is doing some internal competition - the comments on some threads are that they are also working on the improved 787-8 which might carry 250 passengers between London and Sydney.

The airlines who might operate an improved 787 could include Virgin. If the Open Skies that USA and Europe are finalising leads to open skies between
Australia and USA and Australia and Europe there are many more airlines than Virgin who have ordered the 787. The airline First Choice from UK is talking about flying Inclusive Tourist passengers from UK to Hawaii in their new 787s to be delivered in 2009. There are specialised Business Class airlines like Maxjet, Eos and Silverjet. These airlines are making a go of flying (used) 757s and 767s across the Atlantic. By the mid 2010s these airlines might be in the position to consider new planes. Silverjet could be the airline that flies between London and Sydney, and Maxjet could be the airline that flies between NY and Sydney.

The improved 787 would have to be a better plane than any 777 because of lower weights. The improved 777-300ER with 787 technology fed back into will be the plane to fly 350 passengers up to 7500 miles.

[babyslug]

hey guys, i'm impressed, a thread debating the pros and cons of aircraft rather than the usual personal diatribe and attacks on each others airline. It made good reading, please continue. Some of the other threads seem like emotional footy fans venting. Ive flown both Boeing and Airbus, but the 'Broncos' my team.

[Nepotisim]

IMHO, the problem with all the idea of the 'supa dupa' Tripler is that there would be a very limited customer base for such an aircraft. Let's think who would want an aircraft with such long legs:
- Qantas - maybe 15?
- BA - maybe 10? (if that - given they now only operate to one city (Sydney) in Oceania)
- Virgin - maybe 6?
- Air NZ - maybe 5?
- might Air France want a few to operate direct Paris - Noumea/Papeete? ok, maybe 8, then.
Other European carriers don't, IMHO, give much of a toss about operating to Australia and so are unlikely to invest; same goes for US carriers (who are happy to operate as now via a West Coast hub). Carriers based at intermediate ports (ie. Asia, Middle East) don't need the legs.
My point is that 45-50 airframes might not be enough to justify the development cost.
How many 747 SP's were made? That was a pretty big revamp for a small number.
Nepotisim

[noip]

"How many 747 SP's were made?"

If memory serves ... about 55.

N

[Taildragger67]

Going Boeing and B772,

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see it happen. If the work can be done cost-effectively, I hope Seattle does it.

But, I just think about the 74L, 743 and 764 projects and wonder if they'd want to go down the niche road again.

But you're right, they may make enhancements across the whole 777 range which could thereby spread the costs and make it (the ELR) a profitable programme.

Hope so!

[Going Boeing]

Taillie

Don't forget to add the B753 to your list of dud Boeing programs. A lot of money spent on these projects with very poor returns.

I wouldn't have included the B743 on the list as it was a relatively minor fuselage mod which sold in reasonable numbers and was subsequently the fuselage for the B744 so the development costs would have been recouped many times over. GB

[The Kavorka]

Angle of Attack...........

You are full of SH#T...

There have been only a couple of resignations at JQ recently, and they were 320 pilots moving to asia...

Stop posting rubbish and stick to the facts......

I know for a fact training JQ managment are working out training slots for the 787's now...

Like it or not the 787 is going to be painted orange and grey.....so get used to it!!!!:ok: :ok:

[Condition lever]

Well actually AOA is is correct that one Captain did resign after one or two sectors and went back to EK.
This is a fact and should not be in dispute.
The Captain in question was on leave from EK pending resignation, did not like JQ so pulled his resignation with EK and returned.

[Avid Aviator]

Let's think who would want an aircraft with such long legs
In addition to those already mentioned:
Any Asian carrier flying to USA, especially beyond the West Coast.
South Africa and South America to Australasia.
Any airline not based in the centre of the aviation world (Asia/Middle east).
The lightweight 787 airframe has the potential for similar range to the B777 but at lower cost. However, this version is over a decade away, if indeed it will ever be developed. Weight & balance, takeoff performance, reliabilty etc needs a quantum leap before this aircraft can achieve such an endurance stretch. Mature aircraft like the B777 and B744 have taken over 10 years to stretch an equivalent amount. The 787 will likely take a similar time. Meanwhile....