GAF Tornado loss in 80's due to HIRTA flyby?

[gonadz]

I am doing some research into electromagnetic effects on aircraft flight controls. I seem to recall during the 80's or early 90's that the GAF lost a GR1 (and sadly the crew) when it flew close to a mast in Germany. I believe the aircraft (against the pilots control inputs) rolled and pulled into the ground. Shortly after the crash all GR1's were required to avoid Hi Intensity Radio Transmission Areas (HIRTAS) by set margins. Despite a number of Google searches I have drawn a complete blank.
Can anyone help me with information with this, or any other, flight control interference by radiated energy?
Many thanks

[Zoom]

Can't help there, but I heard of a Jaguar during weapons trials in the mid-70s flying past Belmont TV mast and having its load of bombs released for it. But the good old Phantom didn't need outside interference as uncommanded control inputs were occasionally created from within the AFCS.

[Talk Wrench]

The event, IIRC, was over the radio free europe antenna.

It is theorised that the AFCS/ CSAS system was incapable of filtering away heavy and unwanted frequencies from the LRU's that contain it.

The exposure to the aforementioned frequencies caused the aircraft AFCS/ CSAS system to "drop out" and before "mech mode" ( nothing that isn't in Jane's) could be fully utilised by the crew, the aircraft had departed the flight envelope and at such a level as 500 ft was unrecoverable.


TW

[Rigex]

gonadz

- try here;

http://www.emc-esd.nl/Download/EMC/Technology%20Platform%20SEE/050201_EMC_Towards%20a%20Technology_Platform_version2.pdf

Gives brief details of the Tornado and some others.

Rigex.

[k3k3]

www.cherryclough.com/Downloads/Compendium%20of%20Banana%20Skins,%205%20March%2007.pdf

This site has a lot of documented EMI instances, with a few aviation cases scattered through it. I seem to remember Jags having a similar problem in the mid seventies.

[r2_unit]

I stand to be corrected but I think the incident happened over the HIRTA at the departure end of rwy20 at GAFB Lechfeld??

[gonadz]

Many thanks for all the info and pointers so far.
I have established that the Tornado crash occured on 6th July 1984 near Munich, Germany. A West German Tornado crashed after flying close to a powerful VOA transmitter.
I also recall that a while after the BOI the Tornado fleets were required to avoid certain transmitters by certain distances in order to avoid the effects of electromagnetic transmissions.
In addition the RAF fleet was banned from transmitting on HF or being in close proximity to the tanker when it was transmitting an HF position report. Again I believe the problem was the effect this radiation could have on the flight control systems. I also recall the uncommanded jettison of wing or pylon stores on several occaisions but they may have been more to do with the stores management system software rather than any electromagnetic interference?

Were the standards of electromagnetic protection poor or was this such a new field that standards of testing hadn't yet been fully developed?

Gratefull for any opinion or more pointers!

[L Peacock]

EMC/EMI susceptibility for current inventory shouldn't be considered internet fodder.

[BluntM8]

I strongly agree. Not for the internet and not for discussion unless you need to know - which most of us (myself included) don't.

Beadwindow. Mod's, I would ask that this thread be locked to prevent any accidental disclosure of information from the well meaning.

BluntM8

[gonadz]

Mike,

Many thanks for that. Your memory may be failing you a little regarding the Tornado accident. I know the details of that particular accident in some detail.... The the front seater saw the A-10 head-on at a late stage and took immediate & moderate avoiding action. Meanwhile his navigator, who had been-head down taking a fix, and being mindful of the moderate manoeuvering and recent GAF accident initiated command ejection. I understand that the missunderstanding was cleared up whilst collecting parachutes in a field. So this particular accident was not directly attributable to the electromagnetic influence of HIRTA's.

L-P

I appreciate & understand your concern. However I have deliberately kept my comments to a period over 20 years ago when I believe military emc was likely in the early stages of development. I hope that things have moved on considerably over this period.

If you feel strongly that I am prying into an area beyond what is currently available in the public domain please feel free to pm me and I'll try to direct my postings appropriately. I have researched only public domain data through the internet and the engineering department where I am studying.

[muscat329]

At the time of the GAF incident I was still test flying at Warton. My recollection is that the aircraft was approaching the Voice Of America transmitter near Munich from the west with the navigator doing a radar fix. The significance of this is that this high powered aerial was directional beaming its signal into Eastern Europe. The aircraft flew over the top of the transmitter from the west and straight into the beam. The CSAS which was analogue got severely overloaded and went loopy. Hence the unfortunate loss of aircraft and crew.
If I recall, we already new there was a problem because a full power HF transmission did exactly the same. That led to some interesting test flying sorties! The HF's were depowered to a quarter power I think. But significantly, again if my memory is correct, GAF tornados did not have HF therefore they hadn't seen the problem at first hand

regards, muscat329

[mojocvh]

....I helped pick this one up (well the pieces). Due to the nature of some of my duties at LBH at the time had a high clearance, had to sit in a tent after our shift and go through all the pieces of pcb and declare those of "interest" to the rafp who then bagged and sealed them!! Don't think we ever found the fin which was of great concern at the time.

More about EMI yes but not for here as has been stated, in fact my memory has gone blank too...................................


MoJo.

[threeputt]

Meanwhile his navigator, who had been-head down taking a fix, and being mindful of the moderate manoeuvering and recent GAF accident initiated command ejection.

The legendary Mr Wooosh-bang: ex V force, like a lot of us.
:rolleyes:
3P

[Phil_R]

And they were originally intended to carry nuclear bombs? I pity the aircrew anywhere near an - what was it - upended sunshine bucket in something that can't deal with a bit of UHF.

I have watched TV cameras fold up under the, uh, interrogation of tactical radars but they do usually come back on immediately afterward. And I'm not relying on those to prevent me hitting the ground at 500mph.

Phil

[SilsoeSid]

Not linked to interference with flight controls , but the TV mast on the high ground NW of Belfast City used to make a Gazelle TQ meter go doolally! :eek:

Then again if a HIRTA was to interfere with a Gazelles flight controls there would be something seriously afoot!!

[Green Flash]

HIRTA works the other way too. Durham? Constabulary v Harrier, anyone?

[gonadz]

Many thanks for all your responses. I fully appreciate the sensitivity surrounding military equipment and would now like to hear of any civilian examples where EMI may have been present during a flight disturbance or upset? Preferably involving a fly by wire type.

I recall seeing an amateur video of an Airbus 320 (I think) perhaps three or so years ago that appeared to be out of control at low level. Does anybody know where I can find out more about the causes of this incident? Google searches have not helped me.

Many thanks

[Ivan Rogov]

Is this the incident you refered to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296

Very sad. I had always thought it was because the flight deck had the wrong "mode"? selected (ie:landing) so the fly by wire computers wouldn't respond as they wanted when they applied power and tried to climb. Oh well wrong again :(

[mojocvh]

Not that one :cool:

[gonadz]

Ivan

No that wasn't the incident in mind. I seem to recall seeing the aircraft apparently out of control. Below 5000ft and oscillating in pitch and to a lesser extent in roll. The clip only lasted about 20 seconds and was taken near an airport I think?

[Ivan Rogov]

OK thought that might be the case, as that one is well known. Here is my last attempt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A330_test_flight_crash

No video I'm affraid, but certainly sounds like a contender.

[gonadz]

Ivan many thanks for your efforts but not that accident!

The one I am thinking about was, I believe, a normal passenger flight that eventually landed without further incident. It may well be that the cause turns out to be unrelated to EMI.

Any TP's out there able to point me towards any public-domain information on testing requirements for electromagnetic interference testing for modern aircraft?

:8

[DaveW]

There was an Airbus loss of control incident over Paris that I saw amateur video of on the TV news some years ago - I think that's what is being referred to.

I've not seen the video on the Internet since, and I only vaguely recall the background - was it an Air Inter aircraft? There was a little piece in 'Flight' soon after but I don't recall seeing anything more detailed.

Don't know if it was suggested that it was an EMI incident, or something else.

[gonadz]

That's the incident but I can't find anything about it on the net. Any help or pointers appreciated! :ugh:

[PPRuNe Towers]

Former Soviet - presumably Aeroflot - over Paris.

[Final 3 Greens]

Think it was an Tarom A310 in 1994 - definitely over Paris.

Just found a report url below - might help you...

http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=225907.225909

[Safety_Helmut]

If it's the one I am thinking of, wasn't it a mode confusion problem ? The aircraft's FCS being in a different mode than they thought.

S_H

[Safety_Helmut]

Report here too :

http://ufcna.com/DOS2tarom24101994.html

S_H

[gonadz]

That was definately the one I was thinking about although reading through the report it doesn't look as though there was any EMI involvement. Many thanks to all for your help... Back to the drawing board again!

[normally right blank]

There is another A-320 incident. (Amateur video). Looks like some kind of PIO. Never seen any official investigation.