Swansea (Ad Nauseum)

[SmilingKnifed]

Once again the owner of Swansea Airport has surpassed himself in the stakes of meanness coupled with sheer stupidity.

Considering that he is more than happy to let the airfield go to rack and ruin and entertain the operations of a bogus air charter company, Mr Roy Thomas is now seeking to deliberately undermine one of the few good businesses that operate from the airport, HeliAir.

Picture the dismay on their faces this morning, as they came into work to find a sales stand (authorised by Roy Thomas) parked directly outside their offices! The sales stand was advertising flights for Haverfordwest's HeliCharter Wales, resplendent with a team of grinning goons looking to sign up members of the public for trial flights.

I realise that Mr Thomas has a sad-on with aviation after the utter balls up that was Air Wales, but to punish someone who actually knows how to run a business is beyond the pale. Shame on you Roy Thomas and shame on Helicharter.:mad:

[Helinut]

Although not connected with either of the outfits mentioned, I do fly around the Swansea area a fair bit and so I was curious about this and did a bit of research.

From what I know Helicharter Wales run a Bell 206 on an AOC based in Haverfordwest. Someone connected with them used to do training at Haverfordwest, but no longer. Helair(Wales) run a flying school at Swansea using 1 or 2 robbos.
The CAA list of flying schools does not appear to include Helichart Wales at all, either as an RTF or TRTO. If that is so, it seems unlikely that they were doing training.

Although Helichart do not seem to be able to train there, there are 3 registered Hele RTFs there already.

SK, do you want to provide a bit more info? Were they doing pleasure flying in a JetRanger or was it really "trial" lessons i.e. air experience flights?

Helinut

[Helinut]

When I last looked, Helicharter had a B206 and an AOC, not a RTF or TRTO. Was it training or rather pleasure flying?

[Mikeb]

Pat at Heliair has seen a few people try to muscle in on his business over the years, I'm sure he'll see these lot off like he has done with all the others.
Helicharter Wales crashed their 206 a while back, do they have another one now?

[helicopter-redeye]

I think it would be '..crashed their..' to be grammatically correct.

Is there anything wrong with free market competition? Was something unfair happening?

h-r;)

[Sewing Machine Man]

I remember a 206 rolled at Haverfordwest about a year ago but it wasn’t their machine. The only training they did was through Great Dane Helicopters run by Colin Larner who sadly passed away last August.

[Helinut]

SMM,

That was what I thought. My suggestion is that HC may be doing some pleasure flying at Swansea in their Jetbox. That is rather a different thing from a "trial lesson".

According to the CAAs list, Heliar Wales already has 2 competing hele flying schools at Swansea. I have not noticed them operating when I visit Swansea.

Helinut

[Sewing Machine Man]

I phoned HeliCharter Wales a few months ago. They said they don’t do any training. I wish someone would bring a H300 down hear though. The nearest seems to be Gloucester.

[rotorvision65]

Having spoken to the guys at Heli Air you are correct in pointing out that One is an AOC company and the other is a FTO/TRTO (Heli Air being the latter) However imagine the look on the guys faces when the smug :mad: er who runs the airport allows another heli company to just bimble up and sell rides like an Ice cream or hot dog van on mumbles pier. People buy "Trial Lessons" for around £150.00 and they are selling £25 donkey rides out of a trailer! This is more a case of sheer arrogance on the part of the airport manager Dave marshall who is probably trying to score points with his boss the real airport owner who lives in his own little fatasy world in a London Hotel.

[metalman]

I totally agree with you when you say fair competition is healthy,however this is not fair competition,is it? Heliair's business has been based at Swansea for the best part of ten years paying (exhorbitant)rent on all of the days for all of the the years, not just capitalising on sunny days as these people are doing, No,loyalty has to come from both sides of the fence as it were, and I firmly believe that the cras stupidity, and greed ,along with the extreme shortsightidness of the management at swansea has to be seen to be believed!!!! Thinking about it, we have all seen it, and we do believe it!!!!!! At Swansea we have the most expensive hangarage,the most expensive fuel,along with the most expensive landing fees probably in the whole of the uk.We are currently on our third or is it fourth Airport manager is less that twelve months, none of them will stay as they all have to take their decisions (even day to day trivia)from a "genius" based in a london hotel.
So My friend think on and see how you would deal with somebody coming in and stealing the business that pays your wages along with all of your annual overheads on sunny weekends, I think its outrageous! one mote thing,we gave only very recently been licenced for seven days,even though all of the staff have been in,what a "funny" way to manage a business,by the way the staff are worth a mention, without exeption all of the staff are hard working consiencious people, who have in the past been treated abysmally,and with utter contempt!!!!

[PANews]

I may be missing something here.

An operation that it seems everyone agrees does not do training turns up at Swansea and sets up in temporary accommodation next to a flight training school that does to offer some form of air experience flights to the public on a nice sunny day. Just like many such operators do on fields and at shows across the UK.

If the flight training school Heliair runs R22s and clearly does not wish to operate a joy ride operation [in a more suitable type] on a sunny day where is the argument that says the interlopers are nicking business from the R22 operator?

Is it not just as likely that just one Swansea resident on the £25 flip round the bay might just decide to take up helicopter flying with his/her local flying school? Only one choice at Swansea any day of the week ... Heliair....:)

[metalman]

any operation that involves helicopters is bound to have a detrimental effect not only on the existing helicopter school but also on all of the other flying schools based at the airfield,i mean who can compete with a £25 pleasure flight around gower? Certainly not the home based business with all of their inherent fifty two week costs and overheads,i liked the analagy of comparing them to cream vendors who just turn up, set up and start trading.:ugh:

[PANews]

The whole point of this is that Heliair [through their own choice] is NOT offering this service.
Perhaps having seen another operator fly such a service they may reconsider?
But what we have not yet discovered is how many passengers the interlopers flew! These are very labour intensive operations, aircraft, pilot, groundcrew of three base etc. All of these elements have their own 52 week a year cost even if it is only in the investment in the base tent and stationery! Being sure of a groundcrew for instance may require retainers to be spent.
Unless there were a 100 or so paying passengers the enterprise will have been a failure, if more than 150 perhaps someone at Swansea needs to wake up!

[metalman]

I think the important point with this issue is that the manager at swansea saw an opportinity to take some quick cash and decided that he would play the short game, without thinking to much about the loyalty that all of his regular customers (including heliair)have shown them over the years. We will all have to bear this in mind in any future dealings we might have with these thoughtless people,who need to learn a thing or two about business.
metalman

[rotorvision65]

I would agree with Metal man that all of the staff without exception at Swansea are friendly coureous and helpfull bearing in mind the atmosphere they must be working in! not knowing if the airport is to be closed or not. The other thing to consider is that Heli Charter Wales has somewhat ripped off the name of Heli Air Wales to joe public who tends to know very little of the aviation industry that the two companies were in some way linked? at the end of the day it all boils down to the fact that the Airport "manager" has not got a clue and is treating the long term tennants with utter contempt(Not that the recent arrival of the parachute club should be treated with any less respect)!! What next Cardiff Aviation Acadamy being allowed to fly off their trial lessons at Swansea or another Parachute company and micro light company being given a couple of days a month each with no (or minimal) overheads? I know why dont all of the schools on the airport inform Roy Thomas or his socially inept manager that they are closing down? where will he be then? Perhaps the tennants/residents of EGFH should hold a meeting off airfield to discuss a plan of action as there are many eminent and well connected pilots flying from EGFH. I mean Quote: "The dearest fuel & hangarege in the country" added to this the fact that the place is now only licenced 5 days a week!! I think everybody is being ripped off!!

[Heliport]

The other thing to consider is that Heli Charter Wales has somewhat ripped off the name of Heli Air Wales to joe public who tends to know very little of the aviation industry that the two companies were in some way linked? Just out of curiosity, is 'Heli Air Wales' part of Heli Air or a separate company? :confused:

[metalman]

I agree entirely with your comments,the problem with having a residents meeting of course is that because "Swanea airport Limited" is a private limited company which means the owners could say that they are perfectly entitled to run their business as they see fit,I mean they have already told a number of the complainants "you run your business the way you want to and we will run ours the way we want!!!!" I personally would not be surprised at any (stupid)commercial decision they might make next!!!!!
One thing for sure, it cannot go on being run in this very inept manner!!!!!
Metalman

[rotorvision65]

Point Taken Heliport. However Heli Air Wales has a very close working relationship with Heli Air at both Wellsbourne and High Wycombe. I happen to know that the guys in Swansea use Heli Air High Wcombe and Wellsbourne for maintanence and also sell machines via them this is a relationship built up over 10+ years and they call upon Mr Mike Smith who is Probably the most knowledgable guy on Robinson Helicopters in the UK to carry out their flight tests and Lpcs etc:

[metalman]

That is not quite the case,they are not part of any other company, they do not sell aircraft,yes they use heliair wellesbourne for their maintenance,and they use Smithy (when he's available) for their GFT's. I agree that Mike is the "Guru"
Metalman

[rotorvision65]

Metal man you are a little mis informed re- the sellig of machines as the one R22 they use at EGFH was purchased off heli air at high wycombe for the owner and over the past 10 years or so they have sold numerous machines all supplied via heli Air at either Wellsbourne or High wycombeand the latter doing All of their mainenance. And they use Mike for final handling tests and Lpcs Glenn used to do them but unfortunatley he no longer does.

[Sewing Machine Man]

I don’t know if I’m missing something here, but I cant see any competition going on at all . They are offering different products. One is offering training while the other offers pleasure flights. In fact Heli Charter Wales sends referrals to Heli Air when people enquire about training. The airport manager has added another stall to his market.

[rotorvision98]

I think you are actually Sewing machine man! The fact of the matter is that out of curtesy both the Airport manager and Heli Charter Wales could have informed Heli Air Wales of what was going on in advance! You would have probably have found that the guys at Heli Air Wales would have then been some what happier with the whole situation. Mind you cant see it really being viable flying a Jet Ranger from Haverfordwest to do perhaps 8 lifts on Saturday and no more that 4 on the Sunday. There must have been £600+ of re positioning costs plus the cost of 3 guys and a pilot for the day and if the Pilot was Flying for any less than £150 a day he must have been mad! I know I dont get into a machine for less than £300 a day!

[007helicopter]

Outsiders view and IMHO etc - All established business's react negatively to new competition or possible threats.

I agree with previous poster that the pleasure flights will very likely attract more interest for a flying school - and they should look at it as free advertising for helicopter activity at Swansea.

Sure The ltd company can do what see they see as best for their business, dont we all ?

Maybe with hindsight the management would agree it may have been a good idea to inform the local training school.

Either way does not sound like a great deal of harm done.....

BTW My only experience of Swansea was positive as a visitor.

[Sewing Machine Man]

Should have gone to Pembrey. Its on a major coastal road in a very tourist orientated area. Near a Haven holiday camp, Within walking distance of a motor racing circuit, fantastic views of a Norman Castle. You can even get a sneaky look at the RAF target range and play bomb the base on the weekend…. Winston, if your reading this please me your cheque for whatever you think this is worth.…;) But seriously, in all businesses you must have people skills. From the shop floor manager all the way to the MD. I always used to think people in the aviation industry were very gentlemanly RAF stiff upper lip types. Naïve I know, but there is clearly so much bitching going on. I remember on my trial lesson flying near Worms Head. The instructor pointed out Swansea Airport saying “don’t go there they tried to have us closed down” on the ground he went on about how the aircraft were badly maintained. A few months later I was chatting with the then manager at Swansea. I told him where I was training and he came back with “ they have old dirty helicopters with ripped seats” Lighten up guys, life’s too short.:O :ok:

[Lightning_Boy]

How come there's no (helicopter) flight training done from Cardiff airport (sorry it's slightly off track). Thought being closer to the capital there would have been a greater demand for it?

[rotorvision98]

Now there is a question Lightning boy! I have been asked this question many times. There used to be Heli instruction at EGFF but after 09/11 the management at EGFF decided to interprate a CAA ruling regarding parrallel runways and the necessity to have over 750 meters clear each side of the runways now we all know that there in only one runway at EGFF being 30/12 however once the helicopter is in flight( Hovering) they are taking that as a parrallel runway! rather daft I know as we used to enjoy instructing at EGFF and it was considerably more convienient for the students up that end of the M4. sayig that Swansea is a superb place to fly the scenary is outstanding and of course it is far quieter on the radio.

[Mikeb]

Swansea is a nice airport to train from, pretty quite airspace and easy radio. It's a great place to start training but I always liked flying into Cardiff to get a bit of real world airport experience.
You can't beat the relaxed attitude at Swansea for making life easy.

Typical radio call at Swansea:
Pilot: "Golf-Romeo-India-Charlie-Echo requesting joining instructions"
Tower: "Any Runway you like - Wind strong"
Pilot: "Can I get some fuel"
Tower "Sorted But"

[Head Turner]

I am surprised that anyone operates out of 'grotty' Swansea. It must be the grimmest airport in the UK and one which I only use when it is a customer destination.
Looking round Euroland, UK airports are the scruffiest but the staff are the most helpful and friendly.
Considering that the landing fees at UK airports are generally just slightly less expensive to those in Germany, I have to assume that the money collected goes into the owners pocket and to the CAA, leaving little reinvested into the airport. Or am I wrong?

[metalman]

Well its happend again to poor old swansea airport,someone (who must remain nameless:mad:) set up a deal (Which can only be described as an irresponsibleone)which gave the recently opened parachute club unlimited credit for the first quarter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guess what happend,it's not difficult) they did a midnight flit last saturday night, they took everything,including two aircraft, and all of their parachute equipment, tables chairs computers, everything, leaving a £27k fuel bill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and not one penny of the rent paid!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Although during the time they were at Swansea they appeared to be trading in a very steady manner. On the final day before their midnight flit they were taking (cash) money like it was going out of fashion,someone (i wonder who) has walked away with i guestimate £50k in his bin.Watch this space as for more information on the skulduggery and intrigue.They will never learn.
PS: Swansea airports management will be running a summer course of business management techniques,book early to avoid dissapointment.

[ShyTorque]

If this is true, it is yet another tragedy for Swansea Airport.

I sincerely hope that there is a sensible outcome. :uhoh:

[metalman]

What possible outcome can there be the horse has bolted!!!!
and to date they still havent closed the stable door!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at the moment they (the airport) are still owed an astonishing £43k for fuel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by :mad:

[Mikeb]

Inflation at Swansea must be high - Earlier today it was a 27K fuel bill now it's upto 43K...!

[metalman]

Inflation at swansea is the same as anywhere else in the uk,if you had read and understood what i had said you would realise that what i said was that whilst the parachute club did a "runner" owing £27k there is still outstanding from other "people" who for obvious reason must remain :mad: another £43k for fuel, so if you are a big user of fuel come to Swansea and open a credit account,you never know you may be able to open an account that is never ever monitored!!!!!
Metalman