PVR and AFPS 05

[Topofclimb]

:confused: Can any of you kind gentleman tell me what happens to your pension if you PVR? I know that if you are, for example, 50, on the PA spine, and you PVR on AFPS 05 you will get your EDP until 65 but was there a 5 year qualifying period?? I've searched the docs and can only find one ambiguous paragraph saying (I think) that you "may not have to" do 5 years before PVRing and getting the benefits of the new scheme. I believe that the initial sign up date was April 03 so I may have to wait until April 08-or maybe as you do 6 mnths after PVRing then November might be OK. I don't want to screw up my pension just for the sake of doing a few more months.

[Captain Kirk]

TOC,
You only narrowly beat me to asking the same question. How ridiculous though, that we cannot determine an answer through official channels. My enquiries led only to JPAC/Glasgow who were, of course, incapable of providing informed advice and will prepare one example pension payment plan only - they would not consider any variables, such as a range of different exit points - they even asked if I had already had a quote this year, implying that I would not be entitled to another. Given that it was the first request I had made in 20 years, I do not consider one or two alternative profiles to permit an informed decision to be excessive.
It did help to inform my decision - but not in the way I had expected!
I would be grateful for experiences relating to career stream exits, between 38 and 44 points on the old (75) AFPS. Are there 'anniversaries' or trigger points (e.g. birthdays or commisioning date) that make a disporportionate difference or is it pro rata on a monthly basis?
Incidentally, what is the currrent average PVR waiting time? Does it relate to rank?
Never thought I'd be asking this....

[Wessexman]

I have just pvr'd, on PAS and AFPS 05. PAS did attract a 5 year term to include the AFPS 75 benefits. However, do not get AFPS 05 and PAS mixed up. They are 2 different schemes-PAS for retention-AFPS 05 for reducing pension costs and extending peoples length of service by 2 years(a bit synical I know!).
If you are on PAS and AFPS 05 you do not have a qualifying period for AFPS05 benefits. When you signed up, you immediately became a full member of AFPS 05 and therefore your pension is based on your final pensionable pay and whole number of years served. Your EDP will be based on 50% of your pension (at 65)+1.667% more for each year you serve beyond age 40 or 18. The EDP and pension is index linked from when you start getting it, but you don't recieve increases until age 55. At that point it increases to 75% of your pension + index linked increase. You then get the full pension at 65 + another gratuity of the pension you recieve at 65.

Whether on 05 or 75-it's unique to get a payment at such an early age-unfortunately not enough to keep me in for the next 14 years!

[Topofclimb]

Sadly I'm not at such an early age!! When working out all the "sums" theres not a lot in it in terms of leaving early. Thanks for that info-have you been paid your EDP yet? I've tried to find out from Glasgow what mine will be but so far no luck. I'd quite like to know the details before I put my neck on the block!!!

[Wessexman]

I should recieve it next year when I leave. I am currently questioning the amounts that my forecast is telling me and have written to AFPAA (pensions) for clarification. Basically, whatever you decide in terms of career, will not affect your pension-your pension is set in stone (perhaps soap stone with the amount of clear and concise info available)and any appeals can be entered into once you recieve your forecast. I would advise to join the pension soc. before leaving-I intend to, but have yet to do so! If any problems then redress them-I had to because of PAS crossover Ts&Cs-told 3 things by supposedly the experts which were all wrong- read the docs myself, could read english, and redressed them for the first time and won. I am afraid you will have to check the details yourself and make your own balanced assessment. The way of the world now!

[Mmmmnice]

I have pulled the plug at 52 - PA and AFPS05. I expect to get all the pension rights as advertised and could not spot any catches. Interestingly I was told that my exit date would be confirmed through JPA Workflow Notification - quite useful as access to JPA at KAF has been withdrawn because OOA personnel have 'no need of access to it' - likewise, I have to wait until I get home to find out exactly how much pension/gratuity I will actually get, and when! And they wonder why people leave. Obviously I'll post on Pprune when the cheque hits the doormat - late Sep hopefully.............

[Topofclimb]

So, Mmmmnice, you expect to get a PAS based pension under AFPS 05? I'm not doubting simply trying to get things straight before I pull the plug as my details match yours by the sounds of things. Thanks for all the feedback!

[LFFC]

TOC,

I believe that Mmmmnice has got it right. This was the subject of much discussion a few years ago and basically was another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing.

Work on retention measures that led in the formation of the PAS and the study into pension policy wasn't coordinated. I believe that this has resulted in a situation where, if he were on AFPS75, TOC would loose any additional PAS pension and half his flying pay if retired early. However, as he is now on the AFPS05, he will suffer no penalty by retiring early.

Hardly surprising then, that in its 2007 report the AFPRB said,


"...we request annual updates on proposed work on pension arrangements between the Professional Aviator Pay Spine and the Career Stream, developing sustainable experience profiles, improving numbers through the training pipeline and a cost benefit analysis."


Looks like the bean counters are on the case and maybe that's why it's hard to get a straight answer!

[Tiger_mate]

PAS (now capped) based pension under AFPS 05

Thats me, and I do not have a clue when the optimum time to pull the yellow and black is. Worst still, nobody else seems to know either! If there is scope to do a runner with no aparent financial loss other then a years earned pay, then please do tell.

My PAS pay is capped, (due to rank) and therefore I no longer realise my full earning potential. Promotion is as distant as ever it was, and therefore it may be that I am at an optimum time to leave. I could do with a few facts rather then rumour, but any rumours that give me a line to pursue will be most welcome. I willingley admit that I always confuse PAS return of service with AFPS return of service::confused:

[LFFC]

It's really very simple. Just go to the MOD Pension Calculator (http://83.138.137.164:8080/) and run through your various scenarios. Although the calculator hasn't been updated for the 2007 pay review (just add about 3% to all the resulting figures to get a rough idea), it will give you all the information that you need to know.

Notice that if you enter AFPS05 on the second page, you get no more questions about early retirement - that doesn't apply because the AFPS05 scheme is based on your last year's salary! Hence the reason for flying pay being halved if you request "early termination" - there had to be some disincentive to leave early. Mind you - PAS don't get flying pay - silly me! So as long as you've served your time and wont revert to the Career Spine by leaving early - you're in the clear.

Unfortunately they also applied the halved flying pay to people on AFSP75. Therefore, they loose flying pay and get a lower pension if they leave early! Clever that isn't it!

[LFFC]

Viz,

Which brings us back to the original question. I understood that you would revert to the Career Spine if you retired early and hadn't served your time on the PAS.

If so, and you're over 50 and leave with 6 months notice, I guess they will base your pension on your last years salary - 6 months as PAS and 6 months as CS (without any flying pay included). Makes my head hurt! As a PAS man myself, but aged less than 50, I'd have to serve for another year if I decided to PVR - my pension would therefore be exactly the same as someone who has always been on the CS and is also on the AFPS05.

Just to be clear, I believe that if you've served your time as PAS and are on the new AFPS05 then you won't suffer any penalty by retiring early.

[viz]

Hmmmm, my understanding was that you can't revert to the Career Spine unless you get promoted - I assume you are talking about the 5 year period that has to be served in order to get the PAS pension supplements.

Still haven't seen anything about the halving of flying pay on PVR for AFPS75 that you mention but if anybody can clear it up.....?

[LFFC]

Viz,

Halving of the flying pay for those on the CS was part of the AFPRB report in 2006 - it's been well discussed in this forum.

Also, check out what might happen to you if you lost your medical flying category whilst on the PAS. I think you'll find that you can choose to leave or revert to the CS.

[viz]

My question wasn't about CS and PVR.

It referred to you post #8 in which you said, ''...if he were on AFPS75, TOC would loose (sic) any additional PAS pension and half his flying pay if retired early.


Still not sure how someone on PAS loses half their flying pay. Think I'd better ask a tame blunty.

[LFFC]

Sorry if I've confused you Viz; I agree, maybe a trip to the experts might be in order - I'm certainly not an expert! But where are the experts these days?

In the post that you refer to, I was talking about someone on the PAS and AFPS75 (a rare breed) who would (I think you'd agree) loose any additional PAS pension benefits if he retired before serving for 5 years in the PAS. I understood that they would also revert to the CS (and thus loose half their flying pay) if they submitted a PVR within 5 years of joining the PAS, but maybe I'm wrong. If so, I'd certainly like to know!

[Topofclimb]

:} So would I:ugh:

[LFFC]

Wessexman: I have just pvr'd, on PAS and AFPS 05.

I guess if Wessexman finds that he's being paid as if he's on the Career Spine next month, we'll have an answer! :uhoh:

But if he joined the PAS on 1st Apr 03 and plans to leave on 1st Apr 08, then maybe he'll be OK.

It would be really interesting to know how many others in the first tranch of PAS are planning to leave next Apr?

[bwfg3]

Gents,

Just to clarify some things. I NGR'D 6 months ago and my pay remained the same, in fact in March I incremented on the spine. It's really sad to me that so many people need to leave with only 3/4 years to go the full pension at 55, sign of the times? I'll miss the RAF but not the total mismanagement at PMA. :ugh: Flight Eng training to start next year anyone? (if there are any instructors left to teach that is....)

[LFFC]

That's good news. Looks like I've been misinformed and you can NGR/PVR from the PAS/AFPS05 without suffering any penalty! :O

bwfg3 - Yes, it is sad, but with so much opportunity outside at the moment, and with no FRI to tempt older aircrew to stay, why wait until you're 55 before leaving to get a job that might give you an effective pay rise and keep you employed until age 60 or 65?

[bwfg3]

oh, and I havent done 5 years on the spine and as I'm AFPS05 I get the full rights. (no clause on 05, just 75, and even there I dont think it applies to the first 2 tranches, they had not got the legal stuff in order)

[Topofclimb]

Whats NGR??

[bwfg3]

Notice by General Right. 18 months notice to leave, no messing about with dates.. on x date in 18 months time, I'm off and the RAF can't dictate the date. It doesn't affect your right to PVR in the meantime and get out earlier if required. I chose my date to make sure another pay rise had kicked in to increase the pension.

[bwfg3]

Not sure your highness

:}

[120class]

If you PVR on PAS you do not take a reduction in salary. As for your pension that depends on whether you are on AFPS75 or 05 however, in either case you take a small hit in actual pension rate paid decided by number of years left to serve. Greater the number of years left then the greater the abatement. At 39yrs old it is about 8% or so reducing to zero at 50yrs old.

[Ginseng]

Not quite as simple as that! Your figures hold for AFPS75, but there are no PVR pension rates for AFPS05. The catch instead is that you don't get an immediate pension if you leave before age 55; it is replaced in the meantime by the Early Departure Payment Scheme, until you receive your preserved pension (based on final salary and years served) at age 65.
For the record, with reference to the discussions above, I see nothing to stop someone on PAS and AFPS05 leaving by PVR before having completed 5 years as PAS. There appears to be no penalty other than receiving a smaller EDP (and eventually a smaller pension) than would have been received for serving longer. Also, if you are permanently downgraded (medically unfit for flying duties) as PAS, there are only 2 options; transfer to a Ground Branch (if offered), or exit the Service.
Regards
Ginseng

[goatmanni]

Ginseng

If that was the case (PAS medically downgraded), if you chose to leave the Service, would you be eligible for a medical discharge pension? (i.e. index linked from the start).

[Ginseng]

Not sure, but probably not unless you were unfit to continue any form of service. I don't think turning down the offer of a transfer to a ground branch if you were fit for ground duties would entitle you to a medical discharge, but I'm no expert in that field.

Regards

Ginseng

[Topofclimb]

Thanks for that post I think that clears a few things up. I was under the impression that I had to complete 5 years on the PAS scheme before I could leave with a PAS based pension/EDP. In my case the differance between PAS pension on AFPS 05 and the old '75 scheme is huge so I didn't want to jump ship too early! If you PVR is the waiting list always 6 mnths over 50??

[bwfg3]

Yes, I believe its 6 months after age 50. With 7 weeks resettlement time, 4 weeks resettlement leave, 6 weeks annual, it leaves you with about 2 months work to do.

[Topofclimb]

as much as 2 months:uhoh:

[Wessexman]

I believe it can be, if you so wish. 6 months notice is all that is formally required for pvr after age 50 or 30 years service, however I am sure PMA would appreciate as much notice as possible of your intentions. AP3392 refers. I can confirm also that there is no penalty for pvr'ing over age 40 on PAS and AFPS 05.

[Ginseng]

It is an interesting point. PAS came about out of the Aircrew Retention Review, when AFPS75 was the only active pension scheme. PAS then offered a pension enhancement for time served as PAS, which was only retained on completion of at least 5 full years on the PAS. So PVR before 5 years meant complete surrender of the PAS pension enhancement. AFPS05 changed all that, since it works on a competely different structure. Hence, we now have parallel systems with different (and therefore discriminatory?) treatment of the same service, depending on the pension scheme you happen to be in. There will come a time, of course, when there are no more surviving members of AFPS75, and therefore no further discrimination. You paid your money, and took your choice. But it begs the question once again, that if it is now OK to penalise early leavers on PVR by removing half of their flying pay, on the basis that the flying pay has failed as a retention measure, why should PAS personnel not suffer a similar sanction? PAS was, after all, an Aircrew RETENTION initiative, and effectively pensioned flying pay (partial under AFPS75, but in toto under AFPS05).

Regards

Ginseng

[Topofclimb]

Yes, I had a good look through some of the documents I printed off at the time of making my decision to go PAS and then the AFPS05 change. There's a whole paragraph about how you will lose part of your flying pay under AFPS 75 then a much smaller paragraph about the PAS scheme saying.....these personnel may not have to complete a 5-year ROS as AFPS 05 is a final salary pension scheme. Its the word "may" thats a bit ominous! Anyway I rang Glasgow yesterday and a very nice lady said she would send me a pension prediction. Again these say at the top that they are not binding, so you could leave, and find they are wrong:\

[MadAxeMan]

For those of you having issues with Glasgow et al. and their limit on pension predictions, why not use the Pensions Calculator (http://83.138.137.164/pensioncalculator/default.aspx).
This allow you to play about with various dates, and PVR/non-PVR, 75/05 etc.
More importantly, there is no limit on the number of calculations that you can run.
(>|<)

[Topofclimb]

Thanks for that link-very useful!!

[Captain Kirk]

When I tried to use the Pensions Calculator, it was 'temporarily unavailable' - for 5 days - so I gave up, assuming JPAC had inherited it. Looks like its working again now...

[blindmanpugh]

I was asked why hadn't replied to the original question by someone the other day, as I did take early retirement after reaching 50 and did change to the 05 scheme. So here goes!

I did as much research as possible before making the decision, but found it extremely difficult to get the necessary answers, in fact ANY answers. However, if you are on PA then your pay remains the same, after you have put in the necessary paperwork. (You couldn't apply on JPA when I applied!)

Handbrake house gave me duff info on completing the Pension request form, and it was me who ended up explaining to them how to complete to the form and provided them with the necessary links for getting the info from the web. (Unfortunately I am in the process of moving house and can't find the paperwork with necessary links to the pension! But see below)

Before making the final decision I did some calculations and then took the initial figures to an IFA, who confirmed that the best time to leave is approx your 54th birthday and one day - providing you intend to live to 65. To him it was a "No Brainer!" Particularly as you would get a second tax free lump sum at 65.

As I remember it the approximate way for pension calculation is:

Your final annual salary divided by 70 multiplied by the number of years and months you have completed.

35,000/70 X 25 years = 12,500

Your Tax free lumpsum would be 3 X 12,500 = 37, 500

If you leave before 55 then your pension stays the same until 55, (can't remember what the actual % was at 50!) At 55 you then get 75% of your pension. From 55 it then increases at the annual RPI until 65. Where you then have to write to claim the pension you are entitled to! At 65 you then get another tax free lump sum of 3 times your full pension, and your full pension then increases at the annual RPI.

The other thing I have discovered is that your gratuity is paid within 21 days of leaving and not on the date you leave. Also your pension is paid on some random day of the month.

Sorry this is a bit late but i hope it helps.

[Topofclimb]

Yes thats what I worked out!