Emirates..been NOTAM'd for a while

[slamer.]

Plane on take-off narrowly misses workmen

1:50PM Tuesday April 17, 2007


http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/17_777.jpg
The plane involved was a Boeing 777.

An investigation has been launched after an aircraft taking off from Auckland International Airport narrowly missed workmen on the runway.
The Transport Accident Investigation Commission said a Boeing 777 Emirates aircraft had to alter its take-off when the pilot noticed machinery at the end of the runway.
The incident happened last month.
Chief Investigator of Accidents Tim Burfoot said the aircrew were not aware the runway had been shortened due to repair works.
He said the pilot had to apply more power when he noticed this was the case midway through take-off and managed to avoid the workers.
Mr Burfoot said the biggest question is what led to the breakdown in communication.

[Angle of Attack]

Auckland seems to have the most WIP of any place in the whole world! They are always doing something there... well seems like it.

[fire wall]

Watchin' paint dry, anyone who does not read the departure,arrival and alternate airport notams prior to the flight does not belong in a heavy a/c.
Enroute alternate a/port notams can be read inflight.

[Shot Nancy]

So was the really important stuff like reduced length, WIP, men and equipment etc on the ATIS or advised by ATC?

As for NOTAMS read 23 pages and find nothing of interest then ATC tell you only departures from intersection XXX avail. Make provision for every NOTAM affecting navaids, routes etc then find they all work anyway. Always read departure AD, Dest Ad and ALTN, talk to dispatch etc if anything sus and remain flexible.

[MMSOBGYTAST]

Apparently the full length was available when they arrived. When they departed there were the men at work, and ATC didnt advise this on the ATIS.

[Peter Fanelli]

If there's a notam out it's the pilots responsibility to read it and absorb it's contents.

geez what is it with pilots these days, always trying to find someone else to blame for their cockups.

There was a time when the last thing a pilot would want is ATC meddling in his cockpit.

Grow some balls and be responsible for the position you hold.

[glekichi]

Gotta agree that the organisation of information for pilots is a bit beyond a joke.
Even if you have checked the notams, what is to say that something hasnt been slipped into the latest supplement?

Bit of thread drift; but the new format of AIP ammendments is a joke too.

Why on earth did they stop entering the date of the next ammendment in the AIP itself???? Makes no sense whatsoever and now they are notamming every ammendment and adding to the already rediculous amount of information which a pilot must search through.

[Uncle Chop Chop]

yeah the missing date thing on the supplements is bit of a head scratcher? How do you know if you've missed the update?? The auckland notam thing is very easy to just flick thru, just like at wellys with all the wip there. Just have to be disciplined i guess.

[Spaghetti Monster]

If, as MMSOBGYTAST suggests, the ATIS didn't mention any WIP then there is a bit more to this than a simple failure to read the NOTAMs. For those not familiar with it, NZAA has three sets of Jepp charts - white, green and yellow, depending on whether you've got normal ops (full length on 05R/23L), alternate runway ops (05L/23R), or reduced length on 05R/23L. The ATIS will invariably state which set of charts to use, even when it's just a case of 'Normal operations, use Jeppesen white pages'. So if that's what the ATIS said, then it would not be unreasonable for the crew to expect full length regardless of what the NOTAMs said (after all, it's not uncommon to see an ILS notam'd out somewhere only to arrive there and find it's working normally).

[Howard Hughes]

anyone who does not read the departure,arrival and alternate airport notams prior to the flight does not belong in a heavy a/c.
Or a light aircraft for that matter!:hmm:

[6080ft]

It was on the ATIS, as well as the usual notams.
Also the controller was using the term displaced threshold or reduced length.

[The Bullwinkle]

Anyone read the Sydney NOTAMS completely and thoroughly every time they operate there?
Does anybody spend time plotting every unlit crane for example before their departure? Of course not!

There is so much unnecessary crap to go through that sooner or later an important NOTAM will be missed amongst all the other garbage.

Of course it is always the pilots responsibility to ensure that all RELEVANT information has been studied before commencing a flight but it would be a damn sight better if the RELEVANT information was presented in a more user friendly fashion.

I sure as hell hope that anything really important would be on the ATIS.

Certainly for our company operations, anything pertaining to shortened runway operations would require revised take-off and landing data which would hopefully always be promulgated in our own company material.

[Mike773]

That's why all the good airlines (:} )have a flight ops/dispatch officer who is responsible for assigning a priority to NOTAMs which affects the way they're printed. (1s get a grey background, 2s are normal, 3s are not shown at all) And also have said officer go through and run a highlighter over the major things. They still get the full list to read through when they're bored, but all major stuff is easy to see. If you just get a non-descript dump of NOTAMs -- no wonder your eyes glaze over!

That's not to say things won't be screwed up at some stage, but I do like the system we use at my airline as it cuts down on the info crews have to absorb at briefing. Stuff like AYPM FIR navaids almost all U/S...I don't bother with since they're always like that and we're just flying through anyway. A shortened RWY or closed TWY -- Green highlighter at the ready! :ok:

[slamer.]

One would "assume" EK's company brief would have made them aware of WIP at NZAA... ???.... they also had 3 hrs to read/prep up on the way over the Tasman.
I Have operated recently out of NZAA and the WIP are (from my experience) well communicated. Im surprised someone hasnt had a moan about the ground/taxiway markings at AKL...yet!

I wonder at what point on the T/O roll they decided to "throw the safety dice" and ...."go for it".... rather than stopping.....scratching their heads, blaming someone else .... then re-calculating some more appropriate T/O data and trying again.... this time a little more safely. Guess their V1 call was replaced with..... "oh sh1t"

[donpizmeov]

Slamer,

Since the report states that there was no loss of separation, I would suggest that the power was applied at or before the point at which it was needed.

Like you I was not there. But its only a short sector, they would have been light, so would think that even with an assumed temp T/O they would have been in the air prior to the 2100m point.

Good on the crew for reporting it. I would hate to think that the remarks made by "half witted muppets" (I like that quote of yours slamer) about why they didn't stop and end up ontop of the workman, stops others from reporting such things.

Don

[max AB]

Slamer I suggest a few hours standing naked in the room of mirrors would do you some good.

[Chocks Away]

Yep Angle of Attack, there is always works going on at Auckland, one of the most profitable Airports (read: dictatorship) around :yuk:... BUT IT IS STILL NOT GROOVED :ugh:

That makes a huge difference on an RTO, let alone all the rain they have there!

Happy landings:ok:

[slamer.]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm006YYNZ).... very subtle donpizmeov... I like that!.... How'd you like the sheep joke?... I see your a great Kiwi fan... thanks !!

But seriously... Your correct, I or my family wasnt there, so I kept my post a little circumspect. I agree its good that the incident was reported (by someone) are you suggesting there may be a culture in EK of not reporting these things ??

Since the report states that there was no loss of separation, I would suggest that the power was applied at or before the point at which it was needed.

Would you agree that would be on setting T/O thrust .... otherwise that sounds like "going for it" and getting away with it ... especially with an ATM.

MAX AB ( Does AB stand for All Blacks..???) I will assume from your reply, rejecting the T/O was NEVER at ANY point in your opinion a viable option for this crew....interesting.
Out of curiosity what does EK's T/O brief say about rejecting? I appreciate any discussion around V1 etc became irrelevant in this incident





http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb112&pp=ZNxdm006YYNZ (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb112_ZNxdm006YYNZ&utm_id=7920)

[Jackson Bombay]

Any Ek B777 departure from Akl will have a very fatigued crew operating it.
A significant factor no doubt.

P.s Slamer, smilies are childish!!

[donpizmeov]

Slamer,

Yes I agree that if they had of known about the reduced length, and they had planned accordingly, it would have been much safer.

But, unfortunately, they didn't know (for whatever reason), and they didn't plan for it. The first they knew of it was while they were trundling (it was a Boeing remember) down the runway. Did they see the equipment prior to V1, and realise that the runway was now shorter than planned? **** knows. Also remember that the V1 they were using was calculated on a lot more runway than they had available. If they had still used this V1, as you are suggesting, wouldn't they have collided with the workman and the work equipment? So perhaps in this case, blindly following the V1 calculated for a full length would have ended in tragedy.

So I would suggest, that since no-one was hurt, and as the report said "No separation was lost", the commander of this flight took to the correct action in the circumstances. The reason they were in this predicament, is no doubt being investigated.

And yes I did like the sheep joke. But think I will stay with "Half witted muppet" as a favourite.

Don

[stator vane]

thread was educational until maxAB suggested another to stand in front of the mirror!!!!!

broke the flow of information!!!

[max AB]

Stator you have my sincere apologies, but to be frank there was no more information of educational merit, just speculation as we are prone to generate.…. So here’s some education, a V1 for a long runway will not be of much use on a short one. The situation would not be that dissimilar to wind shear (tailwind) on take off, where you reach V1 a lot closer to the end than you would otherwise. If you have to stop, you do so if below V1 and you assess the runway remaining is sufficient, the 777 crew, quite obviously (my speculation) decided there wasn’t.

[Roadrunner]

Who handles EK's dispatch at AKL?

It seems that the software in the flight operations/dispatch performance computer wasn't updated to indicate the reduced runway length for departure, or the dispatcher had finger problems when selecting the appropriate information.

I agree with the comment that notam data presentation could be WAY more user friendly.

Didn't the EK dispatching people make a BIG stuff up in Paris when using the wrong OEW and index resulting in the A/C sitting on it's butt.

Maybe an audit is called for of the dispatching companies.

Hopefully much will be learnt and improvements made in the operations/dispatch control area.

Look out for the gotchyas.

[stator vane]

should have used the laughing picture--or maybe the scared looking one!!!!

i just thought it funny for you to jump in with "look at yourself naked"

perhaps could be another disaster!!!!

i fly the 738---

cheers:O

[zulu_kilo]

I'm fairly certain EK has everything sent from DXB via email to the GHA at the required airports, making the GHA 'dispatcher' merely a mailman.

[ShockWave]

The notams at AKL state that activation of the notams and said runway works is via Atis. The problem then arises that if you plan, preflight, pushback and start on the current ATIS with no runway works, what safe guards are in place from ATC to ensure that every one is then informed when the ATIS and works notice changes? I don't know if this is what happened but it is a potential problem.

[Mike773]

I know YSSY ground/tower controllers will broadcast "ALL STATIONS ATIS YANKEE NOW CURRENT. ONLY CHANGE IS xxxxxxx" or something. I know I've heard NZAA do the same, and since they activate NOTAMs via ATIS you would hope they would keep track of what ATIS the aircraft quoted when they got clearance and then make sure they get told of the change during taxi.

[disconnected]

The presentation of important information to pilots by the Notam System is a joke. We live in the 21st century and are using systems devised years ago.

How many accidents or incidents must we have until the system is improved. There are many ways to do this. Try colour for a start. Red for things like shortened runways. There are many ways to improve.

Important information is drowned out by irrelevant garbage purely to absolve responsibility to the crews.

Airlines pressure crews with minimilised dispatch time, fatigue, savings on dispatchers etc. then wonder why it goes wrong occasionally.

As for all you "Professionals", which one of you hasn't missed a relevant Notam in his career? Thank your stars if it did not have consequences.

[woftam]

21st Century?
Like using bloody HF when the guy down in seat 25C could be having a crystal clear conversation with his mate in Botswana on a satphone !!!!!!
:confused: :ugh:

[MTOW]

While we're all enjoying a NOTAM kicking fest, can anyone explain to me what it means when I read repeatedly in my NOTAMS that "the ILS LLZR for R/W xxx is unusable outside 25 degrees"? My question is: how in the hell do you use an ILS LLZR 24 - or even 10 - degrees off QDM? I'm obviously missing something and am sure I'll be put straight by someone within five minutes of posting.

Have to agree with the HF comment. How many damned communication satellites are circling this Godforsaken planet? Surely enough to provide VHF or datalink coverage over areas now (NOT!) "covered" by HF.

[woftam]

Exactly MTOW !!!!!
(apologies for the thread drift) ;)

[Wiley]

Have you been eavesdropping on me ranting on in briefing about the very same thing, MTOW?

C'mon guys... someone tell us: if a LLZR is NOTAMED as being unusable outside 25 degrees off runway heading, how do you use it at 24 degrees off runway heading - or 15 degrees?

[Muffinman]

Just a thought - either the author of the notam mixed up degrees with nautical miles - as the nominated rated coverage for position fixing blah blah blah commences at a '25' value - albiet a distance . :confused:

Or - a warning of false course reversal existing earlier than when we are told they may occur - the suggestion in our docs being outside 35 degrees. :confused:

i'm guessing this is a wide shot though.