Breaking news.US refuses to give evidence

[Tappers Dad]

Sorry Guys it is from the BBC
A coroner has said it was "inexcusable" that US authorities have failed to release evidence about the first UK casualties of the Iraq war.

Andrew Walker was speaking at the reopening of an inquest into the fatal helicopter crash in March 2003.
The servicemen died along with four US marines in Kuwait. American authorities would not give evidence or provide relevant videotape to the court despite all efforts by the MoD, the coroner said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6559529.stm

Another cover up by the US, who's side are they on ????:ugh:

This will make our wait for an Inquest even longer:mad:

[The Gorilla]

Tappers Dad

Not ours that's for sure, but then neither is our own Government!:mad:

[sharmine]

Their Own:*

Sharmine

[tucumseh]

I think it's disgusting, but it's not as if we have the high moral ground. Parts of MoD mislead, and withhold key information from, our own BOIs, never mind the Coroner.

[sharmine]

Quote dubbyer "what's yours is mine, what's mine is my own'

Sharmine

[threepointonefour]

Surely if we back them up by going to war with them they should be obligated to tell the truth, regardless of the consequences.

That's almost cute. :hmm:


(ps. I don't really mean to sound condescending - I guess we'd all like to believe it, but lately, the special relationship has been one way; generally with TB on his knees asking for more :eek: )

[HEDP]

I do find all of this somewhat distasteful and think that there is something of an agenda in what the coroner is pursuing at the expense of the bereaved.

A 3 Cdo Bde investigation determined 'technical fault' whilst service chiefs endorsed a US inquiry that determined 'aircrew disorientation'. It would seem that the latter would be the more damning.

Having said that all of this has been pored over to this extent then I fail to see what further can be achieved by the Coroner doing so for a third time. I accept however that where there are contentious surroundings or more obvious circumstances requiring investigation then there is a need to seek out the cause of death. I am not sure that this is required in this, or many other combat deaths.

Given the extent to which all sides investigate these affairs I fail to see what the Coroner achieves in prolonging these issues for up to 4 years in some cases.

I am in no way suggesting a 'cover-up or whitewash' but feel that political and individual imperatives are perhaps being pursued at the expense of the bereaved, IMHO,

HEDP

[Chugalug2]

Once again three cheers for the Assistant Deputy Oxford Coroner, Mr. Andrew Walker. Remember his name now before he is disappeared, in order to rid our great leader of this turbulent man. The British Armed Forces have precious few friends in the corridors of officialdom and government in this benighted land (though the combined chiefs have a good chum it would seem), and this is a very special one. It may take him 4 years to get round to dealing with a case, but one hopes that the families feel that at least they don't get short changed by him. Once again eyes turn for explanations to our loyal allies. Once again answer nought do they receive. The contempt is almost palpable. Take note, and remember Assistant Deputy Oxford Coroner Mr. Andrew Walker! :D

[Tigs2]

HEDP
You seem to missing it a little here.
Given the extent to which all sides investigate these affairs I fail to see what the Coroner achieves in prolonging these issues for up to 4 years in some cases.
It is not the Coroner who delays the inquests. They have the normal deaths in Oxfordshire to deal with as well as everyone that comes home via Brize. The government could easily 'dish out' this responsibility to other areas, or perhaps home towns or permenant addresses of the deceased. So why don't they? 4 years down the line only a handful of inquests have taken place, therefore only a handful of bad publicity has been voiced. Over 100 deaths is bad enough, it seems the government would prefer not to have to handle over 100 critical public reports and condemnations from coroners during it's watch.
You say
I am in no way suggesting a 'cover-up or whitewash' but feel that political and individual imperatives are perhaps being pursued at the expense of the bereaved, IMHO,

It is B****y right that Andrew Walker is persuing the political and individual imperatives, as he is the only one doing it on behalf of the deceased and bereaved. He is trying to make both Governments take account and responsibility. Ask any person bereaved by the loss of a loved one in this conflict and I bet they will all support the words and Actions of Andrew Walker.
Having said that all of this has been pored over to this extent then I fail to see what further can be achieved by the Coroner doing so for a third time. I accept however that where there are contentious surroundings or more obvious circumstances requiring investigation then there is a need to seek out the cause of death. I am not sure that this is required in this, or many other combat deaths.

Got to disagree yet again. The military may well investigate matters, but thay do not release that information to the Families. If the bereaved are given anything it will be a very very short report compared to what has actually gone to print. All these dependants of and Families of, have lost there beloveds, and the least they all deserve is a Full, Honest, Truthful explanation of How and Why!. Until they get that they can never move forward.

Mr Walker, keep up the good work:D :D

[PPRuNe Towers]

Unlikely I'm afraid Tigs,

It was reported back in February that Mr Walker's contract would not be renewed. If I remember correctly that will be a date in the early summer.

I sincerely hope someone can prove my memory wrong.

Regards
Rob

[barnstormer1968]

You asked what has happened to the special relationship.
Well I asked the Americans on your behalf, but they wont send anyone over to tell us!

TAPPER'S DAD. keep up the good work, and don't let the ba:mad:ards grind you down:D

[ORAC]

Your memory is correct Towers......

BBC: ....The Oxford assistant deputy coroner is one of three who are losing their jobs. It is understood Mr Walker's contract will end in June of this year, following the expected completion of hearings in to a backlog of military inquests in Oxford. Two other coroners brought in at the same time will also not be asked to continue.

More staff were appointed in Oxford last year by the Department for Constitutional affairs after complaints from service families. The majority of inquests are held in Oxford because the bodies of service personnel are returned to RAF Brize Norton nearby.

A spokesman for the Department for Constitutional Affairs said: "To reduce the backlog of military inquests held in Oxfordshire going back several years, three extra coroners were appointed in 2005. Sir Richard Curtis was appointed until December last year and heard six inquests. Selena Lynch and Andrew Walker have heard most of the 85 inquests identified as in the backlog".

The government believes that these extra resources can complete all 85 inquests by May 2007......

[Gerontocrat]

Sorry I can't post a link (not clever enough!) but there was a chap from the US Embassy on the PM programme tonight who stated that relevant docs had been provided to the MoD - Point One. Point Two, if they resembled the docs provided post the A10/Fusiliers blue-on-blue in GW1, they would have been very heavily 'redacted'.

[Union Jack]

The Oxford assistant deputy coroner is one of three who are losing their jobs

It would be so good if he could be reappointed to Wiltshire in view of recent events.

Jack

[The Poison Dwarf]

The Coroners Act 1988 provides the necessary statutory requirement to hold an inquest.

Section 10 requires the attendance of witnesses, mind you, the maximum fine is only £400 and, even with the strength of the £ against the $, the US military could probably afford it rather that admit any failure of equipment, training or any other error on the day.

They fear litigation in an American court more than they fear the censure of a British Coroner.

Just remember what our people are fighting for, freedom and democracy, which roughly translated means the God-given right to do things the American way.

You can lie all you want and you will be forgiven, but tell the truth just once......!!!

[Brian Abraham]

do we become the 51st US state
Off thread, but letsgoandfly don't for one minute think of usurping our position. :*

Edited to add
letsgoandfly, got the PM. A lot of folks in OZ think we are the 51st state, and are not happy about it. A wry dig. :ok:

[Queen O' the Skies]

Tigs
Your statement that military reports are not given to the families is not absolutely correct:
"The military may well investigate matters, but thay do not release that information to the Families. If the bereaved are given anything it will be a very very short report compared to what has actually gone to print."
The 3Cdo Bde report (along with many others) is in fact available on the MOD website:
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/EB86E364-9F67-488B-A32D-62AF2DAED589/0/boi_ch46e.pdf
Agreed, what is missing is the US technical report which discounts technical failure.

[StbdD]

A US Marine helicopter went down in the middle of a war with some of their UK comrades aboard and they all died.

To attempt to insinuate some sort of foul play or hidden agenda in the aftermath is absolutely f*cking beyond despicable. Ever seen an aircraft crash victims remains? Sound like a good thing for a family member to view? Ever seen a closed coffin funeral? Think there may be at least a bit of a reason why the authorities don't want pics or videos of totally destroyed family members shown?

The UK press seems to have a hard-on about US investigation procedures and protocols these days, fine. Let me remind them of a few of the UK's own.

I'll not hold my breath to see the DETAILED coroners report (the one conducted in the UK of course) on the RM deaths after being bombed by the RN in the Suez action, nor the inquest/court martial findings regarding the RN pilots who killed them.

The next time the UK press seeks blood over such perhaps they should look there to find their grist. Meanwhile, Royal Marines were dead by the hand of their own country.... and nobody said a goddamned thing apparently.

Perhaps the idea of the "Coroner's Inquest" wasn't quite as appealing back then nor the "Law" as clear as some today suggest?

Perhaps the Coroner's files on the crews of HMS Oxley, HMS Britomart and HMS Hussar would be more illuminating? All sunk by the RN/RAF. Are those Coroner investigations still going on? Or did they ever start?

It would be interesting as well to discuss other combat incidents over the years where the UK has killed more of their own than have died in combat by any cause since 2001. We can start with the Falklands since most of those witnesses and even some of the trigger pullers are still about. Shoot down of a friendly helo? Firefight between friendly units? Perhaps we can find out if the coroner was as enthusiastic about investigating those?

Or perhaps the Coroner's inclination to investigate is a more recent and even more exclusive one? Focused on making political stements?

Anybody seen the Coroner's Inquest report posted from the Iraq action where one UK tank killed another, and 2 of it's crew? Or a demand for it? Gee, go figure.

Cheers

[Brian Abraham]

StbdD, I'm still waiting for the release of a report on a British CIVIL aircraft accident that happened in 1983. It is protected under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 until 1 January 2016. I'll probably be dead by then. Those in power love to protect themselves and not be answerable for the decisions they make, either that or lie. Clinton, George W, Blair, Howard - need I go on.

[StbdD]

Brian..... I was talking about Coroner's reports from WWII and the Suez mate. Over 50 years ago.

Hell they release stuff now almost overnight when it suits them. Even imply things beforehand.

C'mon Coroners, trot out those reports that you had such a hard-on to fill out. It's the law isn't it?

We'd like to see just how thorough you are ..... and how consistent

[Chugalug2]

Mr. Andrew Walker, assistant deputy coroner for Oxfordshire, has endorsed the 3 Commando Brigade BOI findings of mechanical failure, contrary to that of the US and British "defence chiefs" who found against the pilots. Ring any bells? At least they were only stuffed with pilot error rather than gross negligence, but yet another injustice done.
Beeb report on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6571731.stm

[HEDP]

Dare I ask what the nature of the mechanical failure was, if anyone is in the know?

[ORAC]

Previous accident where there was a differential air speed hold actuator failure and the result can be found here (http://www.bst.gc.ca/en/reports/air/1997/a97p0303/a97p0303.asp), albeit with a different helo type (civilian Chinook) but still a tandem.