Atlas STN

[what_goes_up]

Hi guys

Seen an ad that Atlas is recruiting in STN.
Any infos about T&C's and rosters?

Thanks
W_G_U

[flite idol]

Atlas is recruiting in the US and basing the pilots in STN. As far as I know there is no recruitment for AACS (now called AABO) which is the STN group. Got it?

[742]

A bit curt there flight Idol.

Atlas is hiring. All new hires are doomed to STN but will be on the ALPA union contract and seniority list. And so it makes sense for management to look for people who want to work for Atlas and be in STN. Who knows, maybe they will hire all 3 of them.

[flite idol]

:O Sorry.......did not mean to sound curt and definitly not towards the original poster!

[mercpc9]

Hi guys

Seen an ad that Atlas is recruiting in STN.
Any infos about T&C's and rosters?

Thanks
W_G_U

As per the other chaps, that is where you're going to get based but you will be under the ALPA contract Terms and Conditions not the AACS one (or now known as AABO). Don't believe them if they say you will only be there a short time when interviewed. Hey, that may work for you though.

Here is the Atlas ALPA contract (CBA) IN PDF FORMAT (http://cptaudio.com/atlasCBA.pdf). I didn't attach all of the recent LOA's that go with it. Just the more recent one's on STN. Those are at the end of the file.

The STN base was originally a union busting operation that grew to almost 200 non-union pilots while furloughing the same or more ALPA members on the US side and it was also an attempt to side step the wet leasing laws in the UK. The UK CAA didn't go for the latter and then Atlas created GSS and gave 51 percent stock to a EU citizen. Atlas still leases everything that GSS uses to them to this day. So Atlas got around that also.

AACS (or now known as AABO) continues as a piece of leverage for management against ALPA labor. It is still a very sore spot at the moment with the Atlas crews and I doubt AABO will last through the Atlas/Polar merger that is currently ongoing. At least in it's current form. I don't expect them to get canned, but they won't be enjoying their current rewards for their past actions.

As leverage, the company is constantly doing base realignments and displacing our ALPA guys from their US bases to STN to avoid giving them gateway rights. Many of the STN crew members end up doing US based flying in the end anyway because of these displacements for negotiations instead of base needs. That's the leverage thing that is going on at the moment. The remaining AABO crewmembers is about 60 to 70 guys. They get a lot of the priority in upgrades, super seniority in the STN base and pay for their service to be our replacements. They were "replacements" because they hired at least one AACS guy for every furloughed ALPA guy during their ramping up.

mercpc9
http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

[5Y744]

"because they hired at least one AACS guy for every furloughed ALPA guy during their ramping up"

Don't forget that AACS hired non ALPA members because AAWWH crewmembers refused the STN basing.

[mercpc9]

Don't forget that AACS hired non ALPA members because AAWWH crewmembers refused the STN basing.

You are choosing to forget that Atlas openly said that STN was going to be a NON-UNION crew leasing base while in the middle of negotiating a contract with the ALPA union represented Atlas pilots. They could do that due to the Railway Labor Act (RLA) in the US and the initial contract being negotiated with the union. Also, the furloughs began after a cadre of non-union replacements were trained despite a letter saying that there would not be any furloughs because of AACS which was later withdrawn (The Matheny Letter).

I think most would recognize this as union busting "101" and others would blindly just see it as a quick way to a heavy jet and to be a captain at others expense.

I believe only 19 total Atlas crewmembers jumped over to STN for out of seniority upgrades of 600 crew members. I believe the ex CEO R.S called them the "Courageous 19". There are only 7 of them left now.

So as we stand now, STN is still a thorn in the union's side that management tweaks. All hiring now requires the employees to be under the Atlas CBA and seniority list. No more crew leasing guys like AACS (AABO) in STN or at any other base worldwide. AABO is dying on the vine. When management realizes STN and AACS is no longer useful as leverage, they may move the base somewhere useful. Currently, as in the past, there are no Atlas A/C flying through the STN base. Moving it to AMS or PIK would be more meaningfull operationally, but that would negate all of the STN LOA's leverage against the union on STN and management is not ready for that yet.

[742]

It would be shame if this thread deteriorates into an Atlas ALPA/AABO squabble. Just a few voices made all of the Atlas and Polar crews look like idiots in the recently closed thread, and it should not be allowed to happen again.

In my opinion most of the Atlas pilots (of which I am one) feel that management over the years has lied to pretty much everyone about what the STN/AACS operation was about, including the AACS pilots and engineers during their interviews.

For those reading this who are not part of the Atlas “family’, the reality is that most of us fly together, eat together and have beer together in mixed crews with no problems. That said, the structure is gravely flawed and needs to be changed, probably in a manner that puts all of us on the same contract/representation/seniority list. Otherwise certain individual managers will continue to try to play us off against each other.

Again, IMO.

[rsull]

Hello All.
I am also interested in rostering, T and C, and pay at Atlas and Polar. I am at least a year or more away from the minimums only averaging 30h/mo lately so I won’t be getting an interview soon. I am just continuing my research as I want my next job to be at Atlas or Polar. Is it still true you can commute from anywhere in the world?

Thanks for all the help. :ok:

RSull

[742]

rsull:

The truth is…who knows? There is a new CEO, there is the DHL deal in the works, there is going to be a merger and arbitration of the Atlas/Polar contracts, there is the AABO/ALPA situation, and probably half a dozen other wild cards that I am just too tired to list.

I would advise against setting one’s sights on Atlas for the simple reason that things are too fluid. However watching from the sideline should be entertaining.

[what_goes_up]

Guys, thank you very much for the insight! :ok:

[WhaleDriver]

Just to add a note...Guys that have moved over to Europe for the STN base have done very well. There are tax advantages, QOL when you live there is much better, and there are areas were the cost of living isn't bad. A few have settled in Nice, and loved it.

If your single, or just a couple, it could be a heck of an adventure.

[mercpc9]

That said, the structure is gravely flawed and needs to be changed, probably in a manner that puts all of us on the same contract/representation/seniority list. Otherwise certain individual managers will continue to try to play us off against each other.

I agree.

It's kind of ironic or a turn in events that management recently used the ALPA represented pilots as leverage against the AABO cadre with their new employment contracts. Management (Jim Cato and Richard Rolland) put forth - "either sign the new contracts (read pay/cond cuts) or management would have to find a new more economically feasable base other than STN like AMS in the EU. By-the-way, if the base moves - then all of the LOA's on STN protecting AABO are gone and you AABO guys must enter into the ALPA system seniority list and contract." They voted immediately to take the cuts rather than become junior FO's in the system seniority list/union that they had been used as a tool against since their invention save for about 5 votes from the Atlas cross overs which have protected seniority on the ALPA list.

Is it still true you can commute from anywhere in the world?

That depends. Being that they will base you in STN, you won't get any help getting to work other than a matching amount of scheduled travel from base to the start of the trip. So you can live anywhere as long as your willing to get yourself there. Since you will be under the ALPA contract, the STN chief pilot will required you to do any reserve assignments in the STN area while the AABO guys can do it from their homes thorughtout the EU.

[Skualo3]

Can anybody post what is competitive for an interview?
Thanks

[speedofheat]

I received call on 04-17. Times are as follows.

Total:8000+
Pic:6000+
121 Jet Pic:4600+
Turbojet:5300+

Good Luck

[flite idol]

Here is a copy/paste from another web board composed by a former Atlas guy. It says it all!!!!!



I recently left Atlas because the working conditions and quality of life sucked. I left within two years of being hired and so did all but 2 of the 14 hired in my class. Atlas is not hiring due to growth, they are hiring because of attrition.

Admittedly I was naive about Atlas when I accepted the interview and I foolishly believed the information I got from the person conducting the interview (MBSCP).

I was told to expect to be based in STN for 12 months max and that there were plenty of Atlas flights between the US and STN to get me to work. I was also told they would "work with me" in order to get me to my assignment. Also, I was told the most I’d be away from home was 17 days. None of that proved to be true.

In my opinion here are the problems with Atlas:

STN:

You will be based in STN which is about an hour train ride ($40 each way) or two hour bus ride ($30 each way) outside of London. Currently you need about 6 year’s seniority to hold a US base. Atlas does not operate any flights out of or into STN, yet it is a crew base that is growing (more displacements).

As a US passport holder, when clearing immigration and passport control in the UK, you will be asked why you are coming to the UK. If you tell them you are based in STN and are going to work, you will be detained (work permit? What work permit. My company didn’t tell me I needed one.) This happens pretty frequently until you figure out the “right” answers to the questions.

Being on reserve (standby as Atlas calls it) is an expensive proposition. I spent anywhere from $36 a night at a hostel (not very dignified for a mid-thirties, college educated professional airline pilot) to $150 a night at the Radisson STN while on standby. A few of my class mates quit early on because they were spending more on hotels than they were earning in salary.

Jumpseating back and forth to Europe is very difficult, especially in the summer when the loads are heavy. The European gate/ticket agents and passport control people are not very familiar with the whole concept of jumpseating. FedEx, UPS, and American do not allow Atlas pilots to jumpseat internationally. So you are somewhat limited on your choices. I mostly used United and they were fantastic (business class every time). Northwest’s policy is to put you in coach even if business class has open seats. Only once did the crew let me sit in business class. In addition you have to carefully choose your flights when leaving Europe. Even if there are multiple flights going to the US within a fairly close time period, you can’t just run from one gate to the next like you can domestically. You have to re-pay the departure tax at the ticket counter or transfer desk and then clear security and passport control. Also, Delta won’t take you unless you “check in” 90 minutes prior to scheduled departure time. MaxJet goes directly to STN so they are a pretty good option, unless they cancel.

When it comes time for your PC/PT recurrent training, don’t be surprised if you have to go to LHR instead of MIA. Since you are based in STN you have to get there on your own and pay for your hotel.

It’s not impossible, and many people do it, but the commute to STN is extremely stressful.

Schedules:

The schedules are not very marriage/family friendly. I averaged 22-23 days away from home. You owe the company 17 days a calendar month, but they are allowed to take four addition days every month to “protect the operation”. It happens all the time. My longest trip was 26 days. Also quite frequently trips get carried over into the following month. Once you are stuck in that “bidding cycle” it is difficult to get out. Atlas uses PBS for bidding monthly schedules and it seems there is very little transparency to the system. Having PBS and being junior blows.

Politics and Corporate Culture:

There are numerous factions within the pilot group: ALPA Atlas STN, Non-ALPA Atlas STN, AABO STN, GSS, Atlas JFK/ANC/LAX/MIA (with gateway travel), Polar and now DHL (ASTAR and ABX). It’s an absolute mess. Divide and conquer at its finest.

The culture of the training department was pretty surprising to me. I’ve been through enough training events in my career (6 transport category aircraft, 4 type ratings, no busts) to know. It was pretty disheartening to see guys “wash out” during initial training. What bothered me the most was the “pride” the training department seemed to take in the bust rate. There are a few really good guys in the training department, but unfortunately they are outnumbered.

Despite all of the above, I don’t regret my time at Atlas. I traveled the world (circled the globe on my first trip), I got typed in the 747-400, and experienced many cultures. But in the end the negatives outweighed the positives and so I quit…leaving an opportunity for the next sucker.

[WhaleDriver]

The above post hits the nail on the head. Well said. "MBSCP" is our chief pilot that sat across from us, on managements side of the table, during our first contract negotiations. He's had his job for a very long time, if that tells you anything.

[rsull]

So are all new hires into Atlas STN. Do they still hire pilots into Polar?

[knehibiju]

rsull, just for the sake of conversation, what are you flying at present?

[rsull]

I am currently flying Fokker 100 with 2700TT. I have a few other Jet T.R.s but they are all biz jets.

RSull

[WhaleDriver]

For the foreseeable future, no hiring at Polar.

[Whale Rider]

Hiring at Polar is absolutely impossible, unless they plan on keeping the Polar and Atlas pilot groups separate. Any hiring at Atlas is for the pinal colony of STN. :D

[stringbender]

Future Atlas pilots, you have to realize if your looking for a chance to fly what only 5% of the pilots ever see and do, where you fly every other day internationally overnighting in safe comfortable hotels in exciting citys....take a breath now...ah ah and be treated like scum which you are in managements sights, only to be on property for a short amount of time as your fate has been predetermined by the hedgefund owners of AAWW (76%). To be a employee of an american company overseas does not represent you in the "fair labor act". Discrimination exsists if you've been paying attension to these posts, those that have travel credit,,and you will not, those that start in their american base,, and you will never see one, those with gate way,,only a dream for those without and a grievance / lawsuit in the present because Schmattless has taxed that travel (home to base). Without the "fair labor act" and not haveing a licensed British work permit this leaves you like a lost soul only to reach out to the "railway labor act". If you have been reading ALPO has not much grasp on todays companys nor remotely protecting the rights of its rank n file. But you can count on paying 1.95% of your gross income to dues. You basically can grieve your pay issues, scheduling, travel credit, training issues but ALPO will give you the standard answer "we will have to fix that on the next contract"! The only place where seniority exsists at Atlas is "outbasing". The perennial thorn in union, if you only flew your line we would need more pilots, more captain slots.
:ugh: :} New hire do you see some thread of consistancy here. It is a diverse group of pilots but the largest of non cohesive union brotherhood exsists here at Atlas. The Polar pilot is the opposite and is an issue of contension that I personally doubt the BOD would allow the two pilot groups to share the cockpit together. Fights would break out. You can expect to share difficult scheduling issues like being extended your "4 days" and this will reach into another month and find yourself out for in excess of 30 days. Add this to a very difficult commute. Every time you talk to scheduling or Travel in regards to your ending of your trip you will feel like you have to "ask permission" and something in the form of graveling. Also you will find an attitude of majority of "mission oriented" Captain operation. This is a systemic problem that will reach into all areas of the operation. Maintenance, scheduling, loading. What eva it takes! Some people get caught up in the FAA's gun sites and break FAR's. It could be a simple duty time reg and overlooked because your feeling dog tired. This is by far the toughest type of flying you will ever put your body through. This is not the Legacy Carriers. This is Schmattless. A stepping stone, and surely to make any marriage or relationship enter into troubled waters.

[mercpc9]

I would agree, this is not remotely similar to Legacy Carrier Flying or commuter flying.

I've notice a large volume of crew members (victims of downsizing) that come from those carriers which don't stay very long usually. It's definetly not what their used to. I also agree that many of the Atlas crewmembers are easily intimidated by management. They have been beaten on for a long time and have the highest number of disciplinary actions against crewmembers amoung all of the ALPA carriers (per ALPA legal department stats).

Atlas has had a very long road getting unionized and contending with union busting constructs like STN, AACS(now AABO) and others to get what little decent treatment we currently enjoy. If you signup here, please be ready to fight and not be meek. We have too many of the latter and not enough of the former.

Someday, we may be able to brag about working here. As it is, I can't say that now.

mercpc9http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

[knehibiju]

merc,

The eye ball really freaks me out! Can you like, make it look away and stay still?

[mercpc9]

merc,

The eye ball really freaks me out! Can you like, make it look away and stay still?
I used to have a very pretty girl dancing instead, but I guess that was politically incorrect.

On the subject of hiring, here is a streaming mp3 of the Atlas Union VARS covering hiring (30-50 new hires), STN and also a stab at the company for making remarks in managements weekly voice message to the slaves over a previous union message. I would put the company voice message up, but the company said they will fire anyone spreading company info. Gee, imagine that.

Atlas Union VARS in mp3 streaming format. (http://cptaudio.com/mp3/atlas04222007.m3u)

Like I said before. If you choose to sign up, be prepared for a fight that has been long going. If you hire on, we would like you to be on the union side of it.

[ship's power]

Edited from another blog. . . Caputo's VARS implies that Atlas crews are forced to fly extra days every month, however 100+ Polar crew members reluctantly sit at home, but on full pay. The management (Cato's) skills with these airlines are truly amazing!

[WhaleDriver]

Truly amazing is right. But whats make it even more amazing is that last year they reported record profits. I predict record 1Q 2007 profits as well, even paying Polaroids to sit at home?

The stock has been on quit a run. New 52 week high in the last week. Rated by Money magazine as one the of top ten stocks to own for the next ten years.

[anothercargopilot]

Atlas pilots ARE FORCED to work extra days, courtesy of the contract (both ALPA and AABO) which the company is taking advantage of.

ALPA pilots - work 17 days and up to 4 days extra if required by the company.

Since Atlas is so short-staffed, most pilots are being involutary extended those 4 days. Add on an extra day or 2 to commute to/from Europe if you live in the states and you have NO LIFE. If you are a STN F/O, you WILL be gone from the US about 22 days EACH and every month. They way you could possibly be scheduled it is possible to be out on the line over 42 days! 17 days+4 extra+17 days + 4 extra as you carry a line from one month into the next.

Since all new hires are STN based with NO travel benefits you will have to rely on the generousity of other carrriers to get you to and from Europe using the jumpseat. By the way, that generousity is wearing thin with a few carriers already. In the summer months the commute is EXTREMELY stressful since flights are full and you would face disciplinary action for not making it to work on time (usually FRA, AMS, GOT, or London).

If for some reason you can't make it to work, the company's answer is:
1) You knew about the commute when you agreed to work here.
2) Well, I guess you have to buy a ticket. $$$$$$
3) You should have left a day earlier so standy for disciplinary action.

As a new hire, you are a probationary ALPA member. You don't pay dues but the union can't protect you. The company can and WILL fire you without hesitation.

Don't excpect to get based in the US (get gateway travel) anytime soon. There are SOME 2001 hire pilots displaced in STN. ALL 2004 and 2005 hire pilots on the -400 are STUCK in STN. About half the 2005 -200 pilots have gotten back to the US. The rest have quit.

THAT is why within the first year over 50% of the pilots hired quit. By the second year I would say 75% are gone. After that most pilots seem to hang around. That is until UPS or FEDEX calls. Some Captains go to KAL or ANA under contract. Most Captains are staying put as they would take too much of a paycut to start over.

WHEN the contract bewteen Polar and Atlas is finally merged, the Polar pilots that choose to return will obviously return senior to the new hires. Again, more stagnation. Right now Polar pilots can ONLY return if the company adds more Polar flying (and to the Polar operation which is SEPERATE). When the combined CBA is agreed upon the company will fly both fleets as one and the pilots will be combined as per an already complete arbitration. That is why UNTIL then the company is forced to hire off the street.

I don't even want to talk about the training process.

Hope this clarifies a few things.

[Po Boy]

WhaleDriver is right, Q1 profits will be through the roof, and I expect another profitable year for Atlas! The stock opened today at just under $60 a share, investors like where the company is going!!!
Even with the Polaroids sitting at home, we're still making money:D
http://www.smartmoney.com/cover/index.cfm?story=may2007&pgnum=2

[Intruder]

Even with the Polaroids sitting at home, we're still making money
I wonder what the Polar side of the finances looks like with all that back pay and paying 100+ pilots to sit at home... The Atlas side must be making even huger profits to compensate!

[layinlow]

You have to remember, Polar is making a lot of money also, mainly through the China routes that they own.
There is some movment on the classic side with Polar. One plane has come back and will be flying the Bejing, Shanghai, Seoul route. I talked to one of the Captains in the sim now and he doesn't know where things are going over but there are guesses that 3 or 4 classics mauy come back. I hope they don't bring anymore back, then I may have to resign and lose this gravy train. But with managments hands tied on paying us, they may have no choice.

[Ganbare]

mercpc,

Stuped question I know but...where can I get an eyeball like that? Really cool.

Ganbare

[layinlow]

Good idea, the eyeball is great; I would like one too!

[Intruder]

Have you tried Right-Click, "Save Image as..."?

[WhaleDriver]

I hope their making ALOT out of PVG. Loads out of PEK are less that a DC-8 could carry, and empty going in. The loads for the last month have been around 15K Kg (33K Lbs). Empty going into PVG as well. I think AAWW is counting on future growth, not present.

Effective 1 May '07, no more PO call signs on the Atlas schedule. Gravy train is at the end of the line?

Back to the thread....the Atlas MEC is in serious talks to address the STN issues. I would not sign up until there is agreement in writing. The latest is more hiring this summer.

[Mike15601]

My last trip at Atlas had me away from home for a whopping 38 days! Commuting (Hitchhiking the North Atlantic) was nothing short of hell over the busy summer months. Absolutely no support at all from the company. All this and then you fly with others who enjoyed Business Class travel to their aircraft. Yep..same airline, same union. You have the "have and have not club" If you are new..welcome to the have not portion. Even on a good month and you find yourself out 17 days. Plan on 2 getting to work and 2 going back. 2 days to recover after the trip home. 2 days of rest then the worry starts wondering how the hell your going to get to Gothenburg, Sweden to start your next trip! (Hint..there is no easy way) I know there is banter about the STN situation going away. Well it never did over the past 2 years I was there and Id bet it want go away anytime soon. Why would management have it any other way when they save 3 to 4K a pop on travel expenses everytime a new hire bums a free ride. Enough said

[anothercargopilot]

Mike is absolutely correct. If you want or can live in central Europe or Great Britain then apply. The curent travel allowance scheme can cover most if not all of your costs and commuting is easy since most STN -400 and -200 trips start in FRA, AMS, PIK. GOT (Sweden) can be tricky to get to/from if patterned thru there. If you want to live in the US then commuting can be very difficult. If you live west of Chicago or the Mississippi river then forget it.

I see no incentive for the company to change the STN base and travel as they now have about 60 pilots jumpseating to Europe from the USA instead of having to pay for and schedule business class tickets to start or end a trip. The company saves a ton of money on this ALONE. As long as pilots keep showing up for work on time there is no reason for the company to change.....no matter how tough it is for these commuters.

[N1N2]

:} Boy O Boy do these posts bring back the nightmare! Trying to get a jump seat on a busy Summer night to Europe. If you got bumped there were few places to run to since most North Atlantic flights launch at the same time. Very little wiggle room. Can not commute? Do not expect any support from the company. Scheduling will tell say you should have bought a ticket. (Check out the prices on the Internet, Goodbye one months pay) Expect to get docked pay or out and out get fired. And the old 17 days on, 7 off then another 17 days on schedule. Just when you are ready to scramble home for the 7, they take three of the days keeping you flying. Involuntary assigned. (Who needs a life) The commute home for the remaining 4 days has now become impossible. Now your stuck in Europe for those 4 days on your on dime. If you are lucky you might find a room for $120 per night. Remember the US Dollar is very weak at the moment. Oh yes, in reference to the above post. "The Have/Have Not Club" My fondest memory was landing in Frankfurt one night and it being to late to commute home. Three of us checked into the same hotel. The Captain's "Have Club Membership" got him a room for the night and a Business Class ticket home the next day. The other F/O's "Have Club Membership" afforded him a travel credit in which he had a room and a ticket home as well. And there stood lowly me, proud member of "The Have Not Club" My Visa card in hand to pay for my room. And hoping beyond hope that I could get a jump seat West to the US the next morning on an oversold flight. As stated above, 3 Pilots, same airline, same union on three different programs. If you are single, move to Europe and go for it. If you are married and its on shaky ground go ahead and get divorced if you choose this job. If you have growing kids at home, find another line of work, watch them grow up. They will be gone before you know it. As of last month there is no one remaining from my new hire class. Everyone reached their breaking point at different times. I wish I had better things to say but if you are at the bottom at this airline it is a horrible place to work. Good luck.:ugh:

[free at last]

I think the Company did not chain you to take the job N1N2, To my perspective you were out of work desperate, needed a pay check, cashed all the checks, used propably a good medical plan, and you were not a Happy Camper to Be in the cockpit with. We all make joices if the job works for you fine , otherwise we should move on. Look at all the so called legacy carriers lots of A,B,C and who knows what other pay scale.:)

[742]

N1N2:

While I don’t want to minimize the issues with the STN base structure, your example would apply in any situation where three pilots with different domiciles end their trip in or near one of the domiciles.

In reality, when one cuts through the tangle of gateway/STN travel credits, what Atlas has is a European base and a United States Base with an ANC satellite. If you live in one of the those three locations AND are “based” there things work out OK. However if you are trying to commute, which in most cases means from the continental U.S. to Europe, It is miserable.

[N1N2]

I gladly came to Atlas. No, I was not desperately unemployed. No, I was not on the Atlas medical plan. I remained on my Wife's. And no..I was not miserable to work with. The crews I flew with were outstanding and flying the 747 worldwide was a chance of a lifetime. I was honored and will forever be grateful for being given that opportunity. I will always have fond memories of my time here. If you were to interview everyone who has left recently one common theme will emerge. The company was a tad disingenuous about this whole STN situation. I will spare the rant because any Atlas pilot knows all the stories. It is my hope the company tells the new guys and girls the hardcore reality of this STN base and all that is involved. (They want I'm sure) I by no means meant this as a personal attack on the Atlas Pilot group. It is however anger directed directly at management. Bottom line, if your based stateside, gateway travel, etc. It's a great place to lay your hat. :)

[rsull]

It seems that the big problem with new pilots is the commute to Europe from the US. If a new hire was to live at STN would that solve the problems. Are Atlas pilots allowed to live in the UK or do they enter on short stay business visas or something similar. Does the company arrange the right to live and work in the UK???

Thanks
RSull

[HurryUp&Retire]

how many credit hours can you expect at stn as a 1st yr fo, 2nd, 3rd, 4th...?

[rsull]

So does Atlas support you with visas and so on for England if you want to live at STN????

[742]

rsull & all:

Sit tight for a week or two as it appears that some changes might be in the works.

[mercpc9]

Here is an update. It appears our union efforts have finally closed the gap somewhat on the STN union busting base. This is subject to membership ratification, but I wouldn't expect a problem with that since it doesn't come out of any of the senior guys pockets.

Now, if we can only get the affected to recognize what the union efforts did for them despite the many hiring into a known condition in STN versus the number that suffered (furloughed, resigned, and displaced) at the hands of management and the STN base construct. I doubt it.

Message in MP3 Streaming Audio (http://cptaudio.com/mp3/mecvars05012007.m3u)

And for those that didn't get the Atlas contract from before:

In PDF format (http://cptaudio.com/atlasCBA.pdf)

The T/A to follow.

mercpc9 http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

[free at last]

Thanks for the update. The crew members who are affected suffered hardships, and is good news to those folks who can soon exercise their date of hire, not some ghost senority system. The travel will eventually solve a lot of problems. Kudos to the Atlas MGT. for going forward to embrassing a new horizon!:) :) :) :) :)

[trash haul eng]

Can anyone advise if U.S. freight operators employ non national Flight Engineers ie. professional flight engineer not a pilot in the 3rd seat.

[JamesA]

T H Eng
Following a conversation with some US colleagues - it depends how cheap you are. Hence why so many sideways riders are 'Second Officers' Not interested being an Engineer but, only looking for an upgrade to the front seats - preferably the left one.

[stringbender]

What are the latest STN LOA nuts and bolts? This management will not give up anything for nothing. Exactly what does gateway mean? After all some of the gateway issues ended up in court which I heard was lost and now in the appeal yet to be determine. I think it was something like you have to include "imputed income" into your W-2. As far as a Ticket to EU to meet the a/c it could be quite costly when you consider the flexibility that is needed with AAWW. Have to purchase basically a few days before travel and coming home forget it, scheduling here is ever changing and you cannot plan on your return accurately. No sympathy on either ALPA or scheduling. I'm suspect this is not such a good thing. If you were given the opportunity to be provided a ticket and then have to claim imputed income but deny the ticket and Jump seat then this could be the beginning of a jump seat debacle and end to our js benefit. Many problems exist here at AAWW, and just think they have been highlighted as one of the top 10 stocks to own for the next 10 years, all this with Polar pilots being paid to sit at home while the non sched portion fly's overtime. It must be a very profitable company on the backs of the employees.

[742]

Others will have better info on the details of the LOA. However to clarify, the taxation issue only comes up if you are going to or from your base. Since it is doubtful that the company would send a pilot to or from STN (where there is no flying) no imputed income should occur.

Or to put it another way, as long as the company travels a pilot to start an actual trip (AMS, GOT, FRA etc.) there should be no tax issues.

[LabDad]

Is the STN LOA finished?

If so, could someone please post it here, or post a link to it?

Thanks for the info!

[knehibiju]

Lab, it probably would not be a good idea for the Atlas pilot group or anyone for that matter, to publish on an open forum an unfinished document (finished meaning all signitures required). Intel says that this is a personal peace offering from senior management and it does require a level of privacy, less the offer be withdrawn. My two cents worth.

Cheers.

[LabDad]

Thanks for letting me know the agreement is still pending.

[flite idol]

Voting closes on the 18th. I`ll let you know how it goes!;)

[LabDad]

Thanks in advance!:)

[mercpc9]

The STN Gateway Travel LOA passed by a 73% margin. I'll post a copy of it after it's signing.

Hopefully this will provide some much needed relief for those displaced to STN and those hiring into into it.

[mercpc9]

Here is the copy of the STN Gateway travel LOA. Takes effect June 1, 2007. The company came out with a signed letter of intent on some of the more sloppy sections of language. I've run out of space on my server so I won't include it.

LOA here in PDF (http://cptaudio.com/STNGATEWAYFINAL.pdf)

and the associated map here in PDF (http://cptaudio.com/STNLOAMap.pdf)

If your hiring on, expect STN and take a look at the contract posted earlier in this thread. That is what your going to have to live by. Despite the people interviewing you saying that they have integrity, don't believe them. They have been notorious at saying one thing while intentionally doing something completely contrary to get the meat into the seat.

[Furloughed]

second hand intel says the interview rate going quite poorly.

Not like ' the old days ' when word of mouth takes time to get out. Internet speed equals good pre interview intel about the dirt bags of the industry.

[iahtexan747400]

Looks like the 2nd hand intel is not correct. The application window is closed for now.

[free at last]

hAVE YOU ever looked at you'r own back yard! I am sure the folks at Atlas really appreaciate you trashing their hard work and commitmend to provide sustainable employement to people around the world. Not just completely of the wall disgruntled Pilots!!!!!!!!! :):)

[ERJFO]

What happens to crewmembers on reserve that isn't resident reserve? Does the company now provide them gateway rights and hotels in STN for reserve sits?

[mercpc9]

They do pay for it. Unfortunately, one of the things they have been doing is taxing it as a fringe benefit under certain conditions while at your base. A lawsuit has been filed on it. So you get hit with whatever your income tax rate is on what they spend during your STN reserve. Still cheaper than out of your pocket. I don't see a reason for them doing it often though. There are no Atlas flights going through STN and getting commercials out to someplace useful is not the quickest thing to do. That and they are spending their money now vs yours.

mercpc9 http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

[Furloughed]

Looks like the 2nd hand intel is not correct. The application window is closed for now.

I was addressing the acceptance rates to interview and/ or showing up for Indoc.

[layinlow]

Well said merc, well said!

[mercpc9]

I noted that some seem to think there is not going to be a merger in previous posts.

This was distributed to the Atlas union membership by the Atlas MEC after they got it from Mr. Clark. Don't know if it came out on the Polar union side. It appears that the 49% owners (that being DHL) of the PACW holding company are expecting a merger between Atlas and Polar. So that may be a plus or minus for new hires to consider if hiring on. R Clark is the guy DHL sent to act as a COO of the holding company PACW.

merc http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

scanned image with addresses removed.
http://cptaudio.com/vars/LetterfromClark.png

[EJetCA]

Merc,

While I'm not a lawyer, it seems that Mr. Clark is merely spouting the company line. By all reasons, it would be expected as he is a member of the management team.

However, in the 2006 annual report, they company reported that the merger may not happen. They also state that it's up to the pilots if the merger should occur. Obviously this is in complete contradiction to what they are spouting to the pilots. Please take the time to review that, and don't take my word for it. (Page 21 of the .pdf if you want to read it)

Also, Mr Clark's worries about a Polar -400 going down are quite unfounded. How about finding expansion aircraft for Polar? Surely the marketing gurus in Purchase can find work for it in the world. According to their analysis, the -400 market is picking up, while the -200 market is declining. They want to replace the -200s with the -8s for more business. They also indicate that the -8 will be even more profitable thatn the -400. Imagine how prosperous both Atlas and Polar could be if both airlines grow!! More work for everybody...that's great business if you're a pilot.

The seasonal demands, again, could be solved via a well written scope clause should the lists remain separate. Obviously, there would be far more legalese, but it should encompass the following:
1) Define the peak season, and allow ACMI lift
2) Designate Atlas as the sole provider for ACMI lift for PO; or first right of refusal
3) Designate PO as the first right of refusal to provide additonal lift for 5Y with non-DHL designated aircraft.
4) Inability for AAWH to move aircraft between AAWH entities to circumvent CBA's.
5) Should an aircraft be moved, crew will not be furloughed.

This would allow both companies to benefit.

Hopefully, everyone agrees that should a merger not occur, the MEC's should work closely together to increase job security for ALL crewmembers. As we have all witnessed in the PAX world, a CBA isn't even useful as toilet paper if there are no jobs to go with it.

It's all academic. At the end of the day, protect my job and show me the money.

[mercpc9]

You make some valid points. Unfortunately, they are selective on who benefits when it's a good thing. Very reminiscent of what Polar's legal council says to Polar's benefit. I have heard of Mr. Katz, of the Polar legal council, saying the exact same thing. Of course, he is paid to come up with that.

Polar chooses to believe the company when they are the surviving carrier and not to when they are not, as is the case now. The company under the RLA gets to drive most of that unfortunately and not labor. That short and selective memory coming into play again by the Polar MEC. I hope the Polar membership doesn't fall into that.

Which also reinforces what you said:

It's all academic. At the end of the day, protect my job and show me the money.Say and do anything at the end of the day. A tried and true practice on one side of the equation. Actually on two sides of this three way argument battle. I'll leave that to popular discussion.

This leads to the recent VARS by Bobb Henderson (Polar MEC Chairman of the Captains represented only Airline) saying the Atlas MEC are liars in his VARS 09/23/2007 Polar message. I have retained it for later record. Bobb (two b's) stated that the Atlas MEC had promulgated lies in favor of the company over the recent findings of the court rather than for the Polar union recently. In a 09/28/07 company response by Jim Cato (I hate quoting him, but he has a valid point on the timing and what the court said) the company confirmed that Bobb Henderson and the company both new of the outcome several days before Bobb Henderson's message calling the Atlas MEC liars on Sept 23. The verbal announcement to the parties of the decision with the written judgment to follow. Well, Bobb H. will say and do anything obviously. A lot of character there, which reflects his actions past and future. If your happy with it on the Polar side, then that says a lot also or confirms past actions.

Anyway, here is what I have on it in copy. Written up on at least the 20th and sent on the 26th. I can't attest to the verbal side dating of notification, which was prior to the 20th, but that is always followed by the paperwork in these cases.

Order Compelling Arbitration (http://cptaudio.com/merger/Ordercompellingarbitration.pdf)

[cptvac]

Mr. Moderator

Mercpc9 is desperately trying to drag this forum into a Polar v Atlas battle again. The only reason I am here is to offer truth where he lies. Please shut this down, or leave it to the finish with an appropriate thread title and we can do this thing again.

Merc

You should enter your Section 6 negotiations ASAP. The Atlas crewmembers are being cheated and used by their leadership, and know it. The Polar "boogeyman" thing is not working anymore. Please don't act like Cato turns your stomach...he forwards court documents with his take on things, your leadership forwards them to you, you post and parrot their flawed thinking. You spout the Company venom as if this will change anything...silly. You work for liars who are working for liars...it is a house of cards. You have a great day, sweetpea.

[WhaleFR8]

Now that's pretty typical. You don't like to hear the truth so you ask the mods to shut down the thread. I too am curious where all of your F/Os have gone. I heard (rumor of course, but this IS after all a rumor board) that Robin (the real person in charge of the MEC) has said that none of the F/Os can be trusted. Thus all of the F/Os have been removed from committees - Even your Vice Chair and FO status rep has not been seen at a meeting in almost 8 months. It is a shame that Robin didn't get hired by United and that he got so upset when Atlas bought Polar. We could have been great. Typical of pilots everywhere. Greatness is ruined by one person - or a few people.

[CR2]

You can have an Atlas v. Polar (ok P v. A if some prefer) fight if you like. I don't mind at all. Only thing that makes it difficult for the participants is respecting the rules. No blatant rudeness, no personal attacks (in other words, attack the argument by all means but do not attack the person).
I'll just say from a personal point of view that the last thing you guys need is a fight. But, up to you.
As for closing this thread: not merited (for now).
;)

[cptvac]

P v A it is...

[whaledriver101]

cptvac is right. Atlas MEC should start Section 6 negotiations right away. We(Polar) are.

Oh,, and one other thing. Tell Bourne to "step up to the plate" and at least act like he's in charge and not blame the Polar guys for your next crappy contract(which is what your next contract will be). Got old really quick here at Polar.

Thanks guys,,, and good luck with your negotiations.

[WhaleFR8]

We(Polar) are.
Who are you negotiating with? Yourselves? Are you negotiating for practice? There will be no section six negotiations with the company for either group alone (unless of course there is no more Polar).

And I still want to know where all of your FO's are? Is your council now a Captain only union?

[cptvac]

Yes. Just Captains. No one else allowed. Dirty secret is out. Disturbing isn't it?

[mercpc9]

Wow,

I put up some third party facts from the court and step away for a day. Look what happens. Would put up the recordings of Bobb's messages (Polar), Dave Bourne's (Atlas) and Cato's also so you can compare, but that is a little too time consuming. If they have not been wiped yet, you can get Polars at 800-253-5671 for the last three, Atlas at 800-253-5642 for the last three, and I can't put Cato's message up because it's proprietary. You have to be an employee to hear it via their system. But his verifies what ALPA National and what Bourne says.

I can't help it that Bobb Henderson ( more likely Robin Hair through Bobb ) are caught lying again to his membership and treats them like mushrooms (kept in the dark and fed cr@!!!). They have done the same with the ALPA executive board thinking the facts wouldn't follow.

This is just a recent example. I can see why so many of the Polar group end up communicating to me for info. They seem to think they can't get the strait stuff from their own. It sounds like they don't get anything from their own council. BTW - the court order didn't come from Cato. You forgot that ALPA national is named on it also. Not just Polar.

As to Section 6 on the Atlas side. We have been prepared for that. Prepared for both merger or section 6 negotiations. We prefer merger negotiations since that will prevent the inevitable moving of aircraft back and forth between Atlas and Polar resulting in furloughs that were demonstrated on the Atlas and Polars sides during Sect. 6 negotiations of the past.

Have we forgotten the separate Sect. 6 negotiations of the past with Atlas and Polar? Do we really need a replay of those days?

Is it that on the Polar side, only the captains count and not the F/O's that would see the brunt of those replayed games matter? Is it Bobb Henderson trying to keep his 100 guaranteed pay hours a month as a MEC officer for sitting down on his house boat in the Bahamas running his bikini business the reason for wanting separate section 6 instead of a merger?

Bobb was gangbusters for merger until after the seniority arbitration award. Which Polar mostly won. What has he told you on that?

[whaledriver101]

Look at your post merc.

The entire post is about Polar's business. MEC communications, "captains only count"(whatever that means), even so far as to comment on the chairmans residence and pay. What goes on over here on the Polar side is really none of your business. In fact,, you need to concentrate on the goings on in your own MEC.

Again,,, good luck in your section 6 neg.

[WhaleFR8]

101,

And how are your section six negotiations going? Doesn't there need to be two parties to negotiate?

Of course this all matters to us. You still have two of our airplanes. We are just trying to plan for when they will be coming back - along with all the PA -400s.

And you probably will not believe this but since your MEC thinks that all Polar FOs are disloyal, and has locked them out of the loop, they have been calling their Atlas friends as well as our MEC for information and advice.

It is a darned shame - we could have been so good together. And really ONE angry man has caused so much hate and discontent. Of course he now has his followers who are "sucking" others into their Vacuum. :rolleyes:

I was at the employee exchange the day that Jeff Erickson announced that "of course we were all going to be Atlas pilots." The look on Robin and Mark's faces (who were also there), told me all I needed to know about what we were all in for.

too bad

[mercpc9]

Whaledriver101


Actually,

Your MEC's actions are affecting about 600 union paying members on the Atlas side of the equation. Polar's constant "IN" , then "MAYBE" and then "OUT" of the merger is not only screwing with your membership but also the Atlas membership. In the constant limbo of Merger "Maybe" or Section 6 "Maybe".

It was obvious Bobb (and Robin) were happy when you thought you were going to be the "surviving carrier". We couldn't merge quick enough. The seniority arbitration seemed to null that quickly. Despite Polar winning the majority of it, you didn't get the bump and flush to get rid of as many Atlas crewmembers as you could. Then the Bobb and Robin show tried getting that via the merger protocols with "follow the flying". The arbitrator pretty much summed that up as "tuff luck boy's, my rulings are binding" and ALPA National even recognized it. All of a sudden, Polar doesn't want to merge any more.

Anyhow, here are about 1500 pages of that arbitration we got on the Atlas side. I'm looking for the arbitors final award copy, but I can't find it at the moment. Think it's on my other computer. 2MB download takes some time:

Atlas Polar senioirty arbitration transcripts in TXT format Right Click and Save AS (http://cptaudio.com/merger/finalcombinedtranscripts.txt)

As to "It's none of your business!" You are absolutely right, up until all of those Polar MEC actions (and Robin H) of continual lying, deceit, personal interest self protection, knuckle dragging, intentionally misleading the Polar membership and anyone else that will listen affects my fellow crewmembers and I. Outside of that, I wouldn't give a flip.

Judging from the number of those contacting me for more info, I've been thinking of starting a website to allow downloads of published info on the merger to inform the Polar membership with the released documents since it is obvious that they are not given anything of the whole truth by their MEC. Drop me a PM to count as a vote for it.

merc

[WhaleFR8]

You see 101, in case it isn't plain to you yet, there can be NO section six unless the other party (the company) comes to the negotiations. One certainly cannot have negotiations by themselves now can they.

Since the company has said that we ARE going to merge one way or the other, they will not come to the table with Atlas negotiators no matter how prepared we are, or how much we might wish them too.

Since we cannot get the company to come to the table (remember THEY seem to think the merger is still on) we cannot negotiate a new contract which is now over two years past its amendable date. So basically the Robin and Bobb show has cost us at least a pay raise and possibly some good quality of life fixes. And it gets worse with every passing day.

So in addition to the two Atlas aircraft that are being currently destroyed by the Polar pilots (just like 496MC was); and in addition to the profit sharing money we lost when Atlas upstreamed it to the holding company and used it to buy Polar; your MEC is costing our pilots hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost pay and benefits.

Do you wonder why the Atlas pilots are so pissed off?

This all sucks worse than a vacuum cleaner.

[layinlow]

Why don't you guys just give it up? If the union membership is so upset with the Polar MEC you wouldn't know it by the postings on our web site. I am beginning to believe the vitriol coming from the Atlas side is in response to the unfavorable rulings they have endured and the fact that Astar and Polar MEC's may (note I wrote "may") merge into one group. Just sit back shut up and let this whole thing work itself out without pontificating on this web site. I am for closing this thread down. It serves no purpose and has gotten away from the intent of the first post.

[L-38]

"So in addition to the two Atlas aircraft that are being currently destroyed by the Polar pilots (just like 496MC was)"

How so?

[WhaleFR8]

When 496 left Atlas for Polar it was in pretty good shape and had been pretty well taken care of. When it came back from Polar (the first time) I was one of the first ones to fly it. There were scuff marks all over the walls, the carpet was torn up and the light fixtures and switches in the bunks were broken or missing. The cockpit was a pig-sty, the chiller did not work, the oven was filthy and did not work; the hot cup even worse. The carpet was torn up and filthy. The blue room was filthy and the galley in general was so dirty and full of old food and catering it took us almost an entire flight to clean it up. The cockpit controls were chipped and the center pedestal was so dirty it looked like it had not been cleaned since it left Atlas.

The Polar pilots have the same tools that the Atlas pilots have to keep the airplane clean. None, other than not taking the airplane until it is properly ground serviced, or writing up inop items such as the galley equipment. But in all my time at Atlas I have never flown an airplane that was in worse shape; especially not a -400 that was only about 8 years old.

Perhaps fixing the blame on the Polar pilots is wrong - but if the shoe fits?? We will certainly know when we all start flying the same airplanes; or when 416 comes back to Atlas.

Layinlow are you still at Polar???

[whaledriver101]

Nah layinlow,, keep the thread open. Its got everything you want from bikini businesses to messy airplanes. And,, all the crying in between.

You are correct though. We are probably closer to merging with Astar than we ever were with Atlas crewmembers. And when that happens it will finally be over. All over,,,,,,,,,,,,,except for the crying.:)

[WhaleFR8]

We are probably closer to merging with Astar than we ever were with Atlas crewmembers. And when that happens it will finally be over. ah hahahahahahahahahahahahaahahah

rotfbsomnlmao

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/4.gif


I noticed you didn't answer any of my questions. How do you negotiate with someone that will not come to the table because they insist the merger is still on (and after all it is their company - not Bobbbs)

[L-38]

PPrune at the Soaps!

Is this the story's plot -

Polar labor is rebelliously attempting to dodge daddy (er step-daddy) AAWW's shotgun wedding attempt with Atlas labor, because realistically or unrealistically, Polar has a lusting eye set on DHL/ Astar instead?

Or is it that loftier Atlas labor would very much like to jump into bed with voluptuous DHL, however the Polar Labor punk is in the way?

[WhaleFR8]

Neither really. AAWWH is a publicly held holding company which in turn owns both Polar and Atlas. AAWWH has said they are merging the two subsidiary companies. That is THEIR choice not Bobb and Robin's.

Bobb initially said "Great" we want to merge. Now, after the seniority list is negotiated, he suddenly doesn't want to merge. AAWWH could do the DHL contract with any number of companies out there. They could sub-lease, they could fire everyone and start a new company; they could even buy a non-union company and give the whole deal to them. They own the leases on the planes, and they own the certificates and landing rights. Those certs and rights and planes DO NOT belong to the Polaroids no matter how much they might wish it. So if Bobb and Robin keep screwing around, NEITHER group will have the DHL contract. And maybe AAWWH won't either.

Atlas pilots don't really give a Bos grunniens hindquarters whether they merge or not. They just want to negotiate their contract and want their planes back, one way or the other. They are just more realistic about the mindset of the company.

A bonus would be never having to deal with Bobb and Robin again.

Astar really has nothing to do with it. This is all part of the Deutsch Post/DHL plan to rule the cargo world. The two groups, if they ever get together, are going to be but a small part of the big plan alongside Astar, Abex, Lufthansa and DHL and probably others. If Polar and Atlas don't get together, however, then chances are that Deutsch Post/DHL will go to someone that is easier to work with. I wonder if that has already happened.

[Miamfreight]

You keep leaving out that Polar has scope and successorship under their current CBA. Why should they leave that off the table? AAWWH has been the one who has changed the face of this merger. Bobb is just reacting to the change in the concept since the seniority list is mergered. No Scope protection...No Merger. Why should we leave our livelihood up to the good will of Cato and Co?
I really don't understand the personal attacks. Is it illegal to have an outside business when you are an ALPA rep? Doesn't' Atlas' MEC chairman have outside business interests? Also why would you think that FO's at Polar have no representation? Ask one of the so called "Cato 42" who consist of a lot of screwed over by ALPA ex TWA guys if they have gotten good representation by the Polar MEC. Also Polar has one of the most junior friendly contracts in the industry. Sacred days off and no junior assignment for one.

[layinlow]

Why mention the Polar scope and rights of succession? It would only gum up their argument.

[L-38]

As The Fan Turns (Refined)

Whale suggests that resistant Polar labor will willingly throw a wrench into the merger machinery, because of an unfavorable seniority inheritance.

Others suggest that Polar is bulking because of it's reluctance to lose it's tenuous scope lifeline.

Is it possible / realistic that DHL, when tired of wrestling with Polar labor, will walk away from it's hefty investment?

Unfortunately, it appears that Polar's (labor) merger resistance, has unintentionally stalled Atlas's contract negotiations. Collateral damage?

[WhaleFR8]

Why mention the Polar scope and rights of succession? It would only gum up their argument. How so? There is no argument. Bob will be the first to tell you he is trying to prevent the merger, That is plain to all of us. However, the Polar scope clause does not give him the right to do so - though he and Robin are certainly trying.

So are you still at Polar layinlow?

Is it possible / realistic that DHL, when tired of wrestling with Polar labor, will walk away from it's hefty investment? Most contracts have an escape clause, or a non-performance clause, or at least a date that it will all be accomplished by. So yes - I think it is entirely possible that DHL/Deutsche Post will dump a recalcitrant pilot group based on at least non-performance. Don't you.

[L-38]

DHL has indicated that it wants a merger. This fact alone will make Bobb's agenda difficult. No doubt that Bobb is gutsy to take on such a battle (not a bad character trait for a protective labor leader, no?).

Not sure how fragile the DHL relationship is, as we are not privy to DHL's escape decision's / particulars. That is probably the bigger question.

[Miamfreight]

How so? There is no argument. Bob will be the first to tell you he is trying to prevent the merger, That is plain to all of us. However, the Polar scope clause does not give him the right to do so - though he and Robin are certainly trying.


What makes you an expert on this topic? How do you know what a judge will rule? The fat lady is far from singing in this case. Why don't you just pull up a chair and keep your mouth shut.

[WhaleFR8]

ummmm - well because I have read the Polar contract and I have heard Bobb's VARS messages and heard what he said to the ALPA executive council. I wasn't trying to portray myself as an expert. Only answering a question (your question I think).

Are you still at Polar?

Maybe you need to go fly that 172 around the bay a little bit and cool off.

[mercpc9]

Lest we forget, companies decide if they are going to merge. Unions only negotiate the terms of employment. So DHL deciding to merge with Polar is decided by the company not the union groups leaders. It makes a good message to use for their troops though. Makes them think they are doing something.

Polars previous urgency to merge was reflected in past messages by Bobb from about a year ago. Saying that it was the Atlas union side delaying. Now that Polar didn't win everything in the Seniority List Arbitration they have decided to to take their ball and go home by delaying the process. Now Bobb and Robin are using a pre merger negotiation demand to delay the process that was pretty much resolved by the arbiter on the Seniority List Arbitration.

On the front of getting personal. I remember many Polaroids doing the same about one of the Atlas MEC. He sold his share eventually since the union demanded most of his time. If the Polar membership wants to spend the money (100 pay hours a month) for their MEC to sit in the Bahamas on his houseboat while running his bikini shop and only attending to union matters when absolutely necessary, that is your memberships problem. He isn't needed that much for the union stuff anyway, Robin Hair of the negotiation committee makes all of the decisions for Bobb.

Bobb more or less just does VARS messages which are full of misstatements or out right lies which are caught very quickly by facts. But it plays well to his membership which are given few of the actual facts. Can't have the membership thinking for themselves you know. BTW he doesn't fly despite it being rumored that he does. Not current.



Oct 2 Atlas Message in RealAudio (http://cf.alpa.org:4080/ramgen/mec/aai/vars/aaimec993.rm?usehostname)

Web page of same (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=40280)

Court Order Compelling Arbitration in PDF (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=40281)
http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

[L-38]

Per Oct 2 Atlas message - "On the merger front, the Association has informed us that that management won its lawsuit against the Polar MEC to compel them to arbitration regarding whether they are required to complete the merger."

Merc, You seem skilled at producing legitimate documents. The understanding was that management's recent lawsuit was specifically about prioritizing it's order of filed grievances ahead of those of Polar's . . . . . Management did not win this - Polar did.

A discrepancy here. Please help clarify.

Obviously a respected member of Atlas labor, you seem generally credible. If so, reporting from Polar's bedroom as such, is from a place where I suspect you don't belong.

[WhaleDriver]

OK with that.There you guys go again. Take a moment and actually read the order.

It directs the parties to present their case to the arbitrator within 30 days on whether it should be expedited or not. Bottom line, it’s not tied up in court and it’s up to the arbitrator to decide if it has merit to be expedited. I see it only at best, as a minor victory for the foot dragging Polar MEC. I think AAWH is happy to see it move along and not be tangled in litigation. The Polar MEC has indicated what they think the outcome will be by not making themselves available for a simple conference call with the arbitrator.

This is an unprecedented move by the Polar MEC and the arbitrators are aware of the Polar tactics. Holden mentioned to the neutrals that it was known that Polar was had a "take it or leave it attitude" and it is wearing thin.

Remember, early 2008 is no big deal. It’s obvious that the merger is not going to happen in the next six month's, so DHL appears OK with that.

[L-38]

Interesting analysis, Whale - Thanks . . . (Should the Oct 2 Atlas message "management won its lawsuit " be amended?)

[WhaleDriver]

Why shold it me amended? Even if everyone agreed to a deal tomorrow, it would be summer '08 before the merger would be completed. I didn't say it wasn't going to happen.

[EJetCA]

merc,

I guess I didn't communicate all of my thoughts completely. :ugh:

Make sure I don't miss to much (not as condensention, just to make sure I'm not erring on this quick deal).

The company decides one day, hey let's merge both certificates and create one seniority list. Sounds good enough. Then they get real smart and fly an Atlas bird into Japan. Ooops....pissed off the Japanese. We'll just smooth it over, then do it again. Wow!!! They impounded the airplane!! Appearantly the Japanese decided that Polar route authorities must be flown by Polar-operated airplanes, and the brain trust decided to keep seperate certificates (which kinda changes the deal substantially from one combined operation, to TWO airlines, one of which would be easy to spin off).

So, my intent was this: Instead of a intra-union arm wrestling match, why don't OUR MEC's agree to disagree, but instead focus the beating on Purchase? Why don't both of our MEC's went to Purchase to open section 6 together, and chase down two industry leading contracts for the crews? Let's get our scopes, pay and work rules where they need to be, then worry about our internal integration issue. The list is made and done. Whether it is enacted is an academic discussion for another day.

Both contracts should have scope clauses that I previously described. It's not make Polar fat at the expense of Atlas. That was never my intent. We don't compete against each other in the business world, so it's only the company's benefit that we compete in our internal world. That can be done if our MEC's unify and deal with the company first.

The whole "I benefit over you" is complete crap. If I gave the impression that PO should benefit by poaching from 5Y, I was misunderstood. We punch the clock everyday, and we want our employer to be successful and lucrative and keep sending the checks. All the pilots should benefit.

Until the MEC's show leadership on the issue that all the AAWH pilots are looking for the same things (Job security, pay and work rules), and focus their energy on attaining those in contracts and LOAs, I don't see the in-fighting ending. And the more we fight with each other, the more Cato wins.

[Miamfreight]

On the front of getting personal. I remember many Polaroids doing the same about one of the Atlas MEC. He sold his share eventually since the union demanded most of his time. If the Polar membership wants to spend the money (100 pay hours a month) for their MEC to sit in the Bahamas on his houseboat while running his bikini shop and only attending to union matters when absolutely necessary, that is your memberships problem. He isn't needed that much for the union stuff anyway, Robin Hair of the negotiation committee makes all of the decisions for Bobb.

I think you overestimate the expanse of Bobb's bathing suit empire. Besides what is the problem with having a side job or business? Doesn't D. B. have a restaurant or car dealership or both? And isn't J. C. raking in a lot of dough as an underwear model?

[layinlow]

merc and whale: When you resort to personal attacks....you lost the argument. And you two seem to do that a lot.

[WhaleFR8]

merc and whale: When you resort to personal attacks....you lost the argument. And you two seem to do that a lot.Well lets examine that statement. First place I think CR2 would have stopped this thread if we had gotten out of hand but lets look at one of your compadre's posts.
...And isn't J. C. raking in a lot of dough as an underwear model? Sounds like a personal attack to me. I remember many attacks from you guys on that particular individual.

Every time you don't want to answer a question or if you think the argument is not going according to Robins plan you start this kind of thing. Stick to to facts! Answer the questions!

The Atlas MEC has tried many times to do exactly what EjetCA has said. They tried to work with the Polar MEC and the Polar Merger committee on many issues. All to no avail. The intransigence of the Polar leadership makes it near impossible to get anything done. EjetCA you talk about our scope clause - but we can't even get to our second contract section six until Bobb and Robin stop their delaying tactics.

The bottom line is exactly what Bourne said in his latest message. If Bobb and Robin thought they had a case, they would actually WANT this grievance to be expedited. The fact that they want to "put it on the bottom of the pile" of grievances (many of which are ones that the Polar MEC refused to move forward, not the company) speaks volumes. Robin knows he cannot prevent a merger. He knows that if AAWWH wants to merge the two companies, then that is their prerogative. He is only trying to delay the process. I think he truly wants to burn the company down. I think he wants to put the DHL contract in jeopardy in hopes that once it is totally gone to others then Atlas will sell Polar separately.

By the way, NONE of the Atlas MEC members have a second job or business but that is typical of the information you guys get fed from the Bobb-n-Robbin show.

And I still want to know layinlow and Miami freight - do you still work for Polar?

If Polar has such a good case then why the delay? If the scope protections are so great then why worry about putting the grievance on the bottom of the pile?

Argue your case on its merits. I bet none of you look good as a underwear model either so lets just stop that kind of talk and discuss the important points - if you even still work for Polar.

[mercpc9]

I've been a little busy so sorry for my delay again.

I too have a company on the side. Thats OK since I don't get paid by my union. Even if I did get flight pay loss for working for them, I wouldn't pull stunts like using a union cell phone as the main contact number for a charter service in Homer AK like one of the past Polar MEC's. If your membership feels fine with paying for it, that is Polar's membership concern. What's a few $5K a month phone bills.

I do remember a number of "personal attacks" being conducted by the Polar equation here on Atlas and their MEC. Just find it funny that it's a problem now.

WhaleFR8 pretty much summed up the rest of it, so why repeat it.

I'll just hang out and post when I have more info to put up. Shouldn't take too long. One side always has something to say contradictory to published verifiable facts that needs to be posted for those intentionally not informed by their leadership.

[whaledriver101]

"but we can't even get to our second contract section six until Bobb and Robin stop their delaying tactics. "

Ive never seen so much crying in my life. Bunch of babies. You actually think its the MEC of a different certificated airline thats keeping another airline from its second contract??? Getting your second contract is your own responsibility. Tell your MEC to get to work and stop blaming others for your predicament.

Polar has one of the best MEC's in the business. Do alot of hard work for their members. Glad we have them.

"If Polar has such a good case then why the delay?"

Hmmmmmmm,, Whats the hurry??

[mercpc9]

I guess you forgot that ALPA National approved a PID for the merger, the Company says there is going to be a merger, and Polar wanted an expedited merger not to long back. I guess someone didn't get something they wanted and now are trying everything to delay or get out of it.

Seperate Sect. 6 negotiations are just going to be repeats of the past ones. Many here seem to have a short and selective memory of those events.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

[cptvac]

They did not have to be that way.

[Tex]

Hear that sound?............It's the hammer about to be dropped by Cato if the conference call doesn't happen.

[mercpc9]

What Bill Flynn thinks, in case Bobb doesn't feel like passing it around. Yep, I agree he is management.


We got a copy on the Atlas side.

(scanned two pages and Bobb address removed)

http://cptaudio.com/merger/flynn1.png
http://cptaudio.com/merger/flynn2.png

[WhaleFR8]

Well I think that just about settles that! Any questions?

[L-38]

To quote Gen. Anthony McAuliffe when at Bastogne . . . . . "Nuts"!!

[WhaleFR8]

Sorry but the Polaroids are NOT the 101st Airborne. Not now, not ever. And General McAuliffe had more leadership ability in his left big toenail than anyone involved in this tiny scuffle.

..... But you go ahead and send that very reply to AAWWH management.

[cptvac]

No...it really doesn't. And a poorly written letter rushed out the door late on Friday (if its' Friday, it must be Cato) won't change anything. We'll all find out soon enough, with or without the threats...

Polar crewmembers don't want to AND don't have to. CYA.

p.s.-I've seen his "hammer", it's not too big.

[WhaleFR8]

...I've seen his "hammer", it's not too big.Doesn't that comment belong in Jetblast.


http://bestsmileys.com/flasher/3.gif

[EJetCA]

It is very odd that he neglects to mention that when the merger was initially proposed that there was to be ONE operating certificate.

Since they "restructured" Polar and signed an agreement with DHL that there would continue to be two separate and independent operating certificates.

Again, one of the cornestones of the deal changed, yet it is not recognized.

Until and unless this is done, the better relationship between management and Polar Crewmembers that we all seek will be hard to establish

I must admit there are several notes that divide the pilot groups, and even further allies the Atlas Crews with Management, almost an (US vs. Them) vs. THEM.
My interpretations:
1) Polar got gutted because they were unprofitable in their present form. So we went in, made some tough decisons, found an anchor customer in DHL and have made it a viable entity, to exploit the 5th freedom rights, Japanese Landing rights and align a brand with DHL
2) Atlas is a MUCH larger company, so why should Atlas crewmembers care about PO pilots?
3) The growth carrot is dangled with an implication that if AAWH fleet doesn't grow, it's the pilots fault. Do you honestly think the share holders care if AAWH grows if there is one or two pilot groups?
4) DHL potential? BS...Is Flynn lying to the shareholders or the pilot group? (I know who I'd bet on....)

Don't let managment make your decisions for you....

Fly Safe :}

[mercpc9]

Polar crewmembers don't want to AND don't have to. CYA.

Don't you mean the Polar MEC? While having conversed with a number of the Polar membership having to DH on us in the past. Your membership seems to disagree with you and the Polar MEC. I guess that means there is going to be a new "snake" LIST at Polar.

I believe it is the writing of Bill Flynn, without influence of Mr. Cato. Mr. Cato's style is distinctive and is easy to pick out over the number of years having to deal with him and the CEO's he controlled in these issues when they wrote letters in the past.

p.s.-I've seen his "hammer", it's not too big.I don't even want to address that one. I believe that falls under "don't ask and don't tell".

[cptvac]

Guess I could say the same about the Atlas membership...on the road they have nothing but positives to say about the Polar MEC and negatives about their own...go figure.

You are correct. Cato's "style" is distinctive. And predictable.

Ahhhhhh yeah...the hammer...if you work here long enough, he is bound to show it to you sooner or later. Can't help himself...compulsive. Damn my eyes...

[WhaleFR8]

Ahhhhhh yeah...the hammer...if you work here long enough, he is bound to show it to you sooner or later. Can't help himself...compulsive. Damn my eyes...Well you didn't have to follow him into the WC in Purchase!

http://bestsmileys.com/scared/8.gif

Sorry but I don't believe your story about the Atlas guys - they are too well informed to believe that the Polar MEC is anything but a roadblock to a new contract and a pay raise.

How would you know anyways - are you listening to staphylococcus again?

What the Atlas pilots have recognized in the past is that the Polar PILOTS are solid - what they are just finding out is that Robbobbin have really just kept all the Polaroids in the dark; especially the FOs.

All councils and MECs have their internal problems. At least the Atlas MEC talks to their pilots - and has the integrity to tell them the real truth. One only has to compare the letter posted above by MERC with the latest BobbVars. Someone ain't telling the truth.

Do you really suppose that the CEO of the company is the one lying about the merger?

So the real truth is that the Polar Pilots are not solid, just un-informed.

You have a unique position being on the negotiating committee. Put yourself in a junior FO's position. Is the Polar MEC acting with integrity or do they have their own agenda?

[Furloughed]

Man, I'm glad I moved on from that place.

JC is going to keep you under the current Atlas CBA until 2015.

You heard it here first!

[cptvac]

Whale

It's clear you have an agenda here. You have been given your mission to interfere and attempt to undermine another MEC. Who knows, maybe it will work because obviously the bulk of Polar pilots run to you and Merc for their information.

You continue to demonize Bobb and Robin hoping to destroy Polar's unity and consolidate the Atlas MEC. Events have moved far beyond this petty nonsense organized by a small-minded, besieged non-Senior Labor VP and a pathetic band of political punks who blame and spin to retain their positions. You absolutely deserve your leadership, the Polar pilots continue to support and empower theirs.

[mercpc9]

Man, I'm glad I moved on from that place.

JC is going to keep you under the current Atlas CBA until 2015.

You heard it here first!

I believe the only ones keeping Both Polar and Atlas under their current CBA's is the Polar MEC. Oops, I mean Bobb Henderson MEC Chairman and Shadow MEC council puppet master Robin Hair. Playing the song of "There is no merger" when AAWW, Atlas ALPA crewmembers, ALPA national, and Polars new minority shareholders say otherwise.

Thanks Bobb and Robin, on behalf of all of us crewmembers looking to get on with the show and get fixes, new pay scales, longevity scales, into a combined merged contract. Bobb and Robin know better. I forgot, great job on that last section 6. What was that, an 18 month contract with essentially the same bag of money that was on the table before the strike, just distributed differently?

You continue to demonize Bobb and Robin hoping to destroy Polar's unity and consolidate the Atlas MEC. Events have moved far beyond this petty nonsense organized by a small-minded, besieged non-Senior Labor VP and a pathetic band of political punks who blame and spin to retain their positions. You absolutely deserve your leadership, the Polar pilots continue to support and empower theirs.

I wouldn't call it trying to destroy Polar's unity. Bobb and Robin's unity means taking from Atlas crewmembers and using Atlas crewmembers as scapegoats for everything wrong at their hands. I remember a number of times of attempting to help in past joint efforts. In return, Atlas crewmembers have been labeled, blamed and used only for Polar's benefit. There has been no reciprocation of efforts by the Polar MEC past and present for the Atlas membership. Only knives thrown in return or attempts to undermine us to their benefit.

If not, please refresh me of a time that Polar has done anything that did not benefit themselves in some way rather than as an act of pure support for Atlas.

[cptvac]

You grossly overstate your generosity.

[mercpc9]

You grossly overstate your generosity.

And you have not stated any of Polar's generosity.

We are used to that type of attitude among your leadership and along side the "What have you done for me today" attitude.

I'll adjourn until I have more info for your crews since it is kept secret when it collides with the Polar MEC wishes.

[WhaleFR8]

Vac,
It is a shame that you have descended into name calling. Why can't you just discuss the issues? It seems that any time you or Bobb, (you know you are posting whatever he tells you) feel threatened, or one of us approaches the truth, you lower yourselves to name calling and misdirection.

So why can't one of you have the integrity to answer the questions raised here? Why can't you be honest with the Atlas crewmembers that you are currently focused on screwing over? Why can't you be honest with your own first officers?

For the record, I have not talked with any of the MEC in the last 3 weeks, so your assertion that there is some sort of MEC agenda to discredit Bobbrobin (more than they already have themselves), is silly.

Also for the record, the Atlas pilots would just as soon you all go away. however, they recognize that the company has said both groups are going to merge. And contrary to what Bobbrobin are saying, the Atlas pilots actually believe it. So, in the average Atlas pilots opinion, your recalcitrant MEC and Negotiating committee are having a HUGE impact on the their lives. Yet you just expect them to roll over and shut up? Come on get real.

Atlas pilots fully support your MEC's right to file a grievance. But putting it behind all the other ones (most of which your MEC has held up, not the company) is plain wrong. And why would you do that anyway (another question you have not answered) - why would you do that if you believe you are right? It is obvious to anyone who has read this thread that you are only trying to delay things. I wonder if the arbitrator will see it the same way?

Your case is not strong enough to win, so you delay until the whole DHL deal goes down the crapper??? In the mean time, Atlas pilots suffer. Yet you want them to shut up and go away???

Grow some integrity my friend, and answer the questions. Put your case forward on its merits if there are any.

[whaledriver101]

Whale

The Polar guys have answered your questions more than enough times on here. We would just be repeating ourselves.

The Polar pilots were set to merge when the company said they were going with the single certificate. That went down the toilet when DHL bought half of Polar. Now we are back to "two different companies with two different certificates". DHL bought half of one of the companies(Polar). The deal has nothing to do with the other company(Atlas). So if the DHL deal "goes down the crapper" it really shouldnt effect the Atlas guys anyway. Since we are "two different companies with two different certificates" one of the companies pilot group(Polar) is preparing for its Section 6 negotiations. It is highly suggested that the other different pilot group(Atlas) do the same. One pilot group has absolutly nothing to do with the other.

If this is confusing to you have your 4 yr. old read it to you. Even he can explain it to you.

Again the level of honesty and information given to the FO's and Capt's from its MEC is really none of your or anybody else business. Your MEC leadership(or lack thereof) has enough on its plate without worrying about information given to pilot group members of another company.

As far as those letters from Flynn and Cato and whoever else,, the Polar pilots figure if they really had such a strong case they wouldnt have put those letters out anyway. No biggy.

Again,,, tell your MEC to take resonsibility. And get to work.

[L-38]

"answer the questions."

Fr8 - Your post read as an uncontrolled rant.

So that all questions with regards to Polar can be worked with (and for reference), request you delete excess verbiage. Please re - list those questions desired in a simple 1), 2), 3), format. Thanks!

Nice (err. . .somewhat nice) answer, 101.

[cptvac]

Whale

I am not under cross-examination. If you think arguing the merits or discussing an outcome on a rumor board (or in any public forum) is a good idea, you are simply not an adult. This "discussion", as were our previous exchanges, is your attempt to undermine Polar leadership...no more, no less.

As long as we are discussing wishes...I wish Atlas pilots luck in their careers. I wish/hope they vote themselves some new leadership, as well. If they don't, they are in for alot of time away from home and another less than adequate CBA and that is honestly a shame.

For alot of reasons, there is no merger (yes, the arbitrator may rule otherwise). It would have been nice to put this thing together, but the Company (in consort with the Atlas MEC) just made the price too damn high for Polar pilots. They both continue the same methods. Tragic.

[mercpc9]

I guess we now have a full court press from the Bobb and Robin MEC now. Curious how many phone calls Bobb and Robin had to make to their group to converge all of a sudden. Maybe it was more the number of phone calls Bobb and Robin have been receiving lately requesting the truth.

Lets see - There is no merger! -

Bobb and Robin new back 30th May 2006 there was going to be a merger with both Polar and Atlas certificates remaining intact. About a year and half ago. They got a copy of the DOT filing showing it. It would be just like how Continental and Air Micronesia does it now. Two certificates one pilot/airline group. Even ALPA President J. Prater has confirmed that to Bobb.

Bobb and Robin continued during this time (30MAY2006 to now) to pursue grievances that would take flying away from Atlas that depended on protections in the Polar CBA that required a pending merger to grieve. Only recently, when Bobb/Robin decided "there is no merger" , did they drop them. Dropped after ALPA legal pointed it out to them and explained it to them slowly that if they are saying publicly "there is no merger" that they can't press on with grievances that require a pending merger as their basis of argument. Though they wanted to continue them.

They - at the same time - continued and completed a merged seniority integration of Polar and Atlas crews knowing there would be two certificates. Sounds like they new there was a merger.

Don't forget the "Return to Work Agreement" which required the merger.


Lets see - The Polar CBA required a complete operational merger!

Nope, it doesn't. I'm going from memory some here, but I think it says in 1.D of the Polar CBA "a combination of all or substantially all the operations and assets of the pre merged airlines". I don't have your CBA in front of me at the moment for the exact quote, but I'm sure you have one.

There is no Polar contractual or ALPA merger policy requirement for one certificate to go away. Refer back Continental/Air Micronesia as an example. Bobb and Robin are just making that up.

It seems that all of this "there is no merger" is revolving around that "follow the flying" that Bobb and Robin tried to get in the Seniority Arbitration and later attempted to get in the merger protocols.

If it wasn't that Polar would be used against Atlas during separate Sect. 6 negotiations again, I would wish you the best of luck. That's not going to happen though and is unrealistic to believe otherwise. I know better and the Polar group probably nows better also.

This sticking your heads in the sand is not accomplishing anything and is only delaying real merger negotiations for the betterment of both groups bottom lines.

If getting the truth out is "undermining the Polar MEC" when they have lied over and over again at the expense of Polar and Atlas crewmembers, then I guess I'm guilty.


merc http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

[cptvac]

Merc

There is an arbitration scheduled. There will be a decision on these issues soon, though you seem to know the outcome...

What is it you are demanding? Who is your target audience?

[CR2]

There have been +-15 posts from beginning Sept deleted by error. (That's my excuse for finger trouble with the FMS (Freightdogs Moderating System)). I'll try and fix it.

Sorry. :ugh::ugh:

:uhoh:

[mercpc9]

Not really demanding anything other than trying to get the Polar MEC to start telling the truth to their membership and the aviation community. Not just selected pieces of it to fit their needs at the time. Done so to manipulate their membership. That makes them no better than management.

The audience -- those wanting the full truth. Polar - Atlas - and the aviation community that may cross our collective paths.

The documents I have posted are distributed to the Atlas membership, letting the chips fall where they may. In dialog with many of the Polar membership, they have not heard or seen most of them despite it affecting them. So the Polar MEC can pretty much say anything to them and they believe it. Proven time and again in the past.

[WhaleFR8]

So now there is an arbitration to decide on the hotel so there can be an arbitration to decide on the timing of an arbitration?

Seems like more bovine scatology delaying tactics to me. It is painfully obvious that there is no case and Bobbrobin are doing everything in their power to delay.

I am not demonizing Bobbrobin any more than they have made a laughingstock out of themselves. But I have talked with a couple of Polaroids on the line recently who had never seen the stuff that Merc posts on here. Apparently Bobbrobin have disseminated neither Flynn's letter nor Randy Clark's letter to the Polar crewmembers. One has to wonder why? Why would he not bring all of his crewmembers into the communications loop?

As I said before, Atlas pilots could give a Yaks butt about the Bobbrobin show or the Polaroids; except it is delaying their section six - whether merged or not. It is long past time to step up, put pride aside, and move this forward. Atlas pilots fully support the Polaroids right to arbitration. What they don't support is the obvious delaying tactics, misinformation, and outright lies.

Two years ago Bobbrobin (and others??) made a statement to JC that they would "Never be Atlas Pilots." Is that what this is all about?

JC can't make you go to work. Maybe you should all just quit?? That guarantees you will never have to be Atlas Pilots.

얼굴를 제외하고 - means to save face in Korean.

자전하십시요 - might also come in handy for some.

[Best Angle]

Whale....

$$$$$$$$$ Means - "Stop Posting" in Korean, Chinese or Japanese or wherever Polar has Route Authority. The stuff you are saying is out of line.

[WhaleFR8]

The stuff you are saying is out of line.Why?
Is it wrong to post the truth?
Someone needs to illuminate the financial injustice being done to 750+ pilots to appease the ego of two or three.
What have either Merc or myself said that is untrue?
Even though this is a "Rumor Network" Web Board, every thing we have said is backed up by documents and eyewitness accounts.
You are certainly free to rebut anything here.
Who's route authority is that?
You are certainly not obligated to read my drivel. There is even a way to ignore me on this forum.

정지 쓰기 - means stop writing. http://bestsmileys.com/frustrated/4.gif

[L-38]

Will someone / anyone please answer this question. . . .What should become of Polar's exclusive Scope Clause (Polar's right to fly / follow Polar's freight)?

This is the sticking point of the merger.

[WhaleFR8]

There is no "right to fly/follow Polar's freight." (see scope clause below)

And there is no real "sticking point." The company has said they are merging the lists and there is binding arbitration telling Atlas and Polar pilots how to do it. The only "sticking point" is in the imagination of the Polar negotiating committee chairman and his MEC mouthpiece. You can see from reading the scope clause below that there is no language that could be considered a sticking point.

What you are talking about is the wishes of the Polar MEC to have follow the flying rights should the Polar business unit be spun off from AAWWH after the merger of the lists and the establishment of a new CBA. They wanted this for several years (four I think, but I may be wrong on that). This would not come from the current Polar scope clause, as that would go away with the new CBA. They wanted this language inserted in any NEW CBA - THAT is what you are calling, or Bobbrobin is telling you, is the sticking point; not the current Polar CBA Scope clause.

This was all part of the pre-merger protocols negotiations for the new CBA. The Polar MEC wanted to ensure that the Polar pilots would have the ability to go (move to any new company) with the sale, if the Polar certificates or business unit were sold in the four years after the merger. The Polar merger committee proposed this same thing during the merger negotiations in front of arbitrator Harris and he denied them that proposal.

The Atlas MEC, knowing this was purely a delaying tactic, tried to move things forward by initially counter-offering 12 months of follow the flying. However, when the Polar MEC would not budge, and on the advice of council, the Atlas MEC decided that they could not vacate an arbitrators decision from binding arbitration (Harris Arbitration). So the 12 month offer was rescinded.

Just for Reference, below is the Polar Scope Clause.

B. SCOPE.
1. Except to the extent expressly provided otherwise in this Section or elsewhere in this Agreement, all present and future flying performed by the Company, or by any other airline which is owned, controlled or operated by the Company or by Polar Air Cargo Holdings, Inc., including, but not limited to, revenue flying, ferry flights, charters, and wet leases, shall be performed by Crewmembers whose names appear on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List in accordance with the terms and conditions set forth in this Agreement.

2. The Company shall not directly or indirectly sell, lease or otherwise transfer any aircraft owned, leased or operated by the Company to any airline which is owned, controlled or operated by the Company or by Polar Air Cargo Holdings, Inc. if such sale, lease or transfer will directly cause a reduction in force, unless the flying of such aircraft by such airline is performed by Crewmembers on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List in accordance with this Agreement.

[cptvac]

Whale

Again...there is an arbitration next week. There will be a decision. Whether we like it or not, we must wait for a "disinterested" 3rd party to sort it out. The issue simply is not going to be decided here.

You continue to misrepresent the opinions of Polar crewmembers. You continue to demonize and blame the Polar MEC for the self-serving choices your own MEC has made. The Atlas MEC has climbed into bed with Mr. Cato, and Atlas crewmembers are paying the price. Further more, they know it--so it must be OK. Continue to vent if you must.

Polar crewmembers have made their wishes overwhelmingly clear and demanded defense of their CBA--they simply do not agree with your version of reality and what ought to be. Nor do I.

The delays, gamesmanship, and culture of blame created by Mr. Cato and Mr. Bourne have backfired and, unfortunately, the Atlas crewmembers may very well pay a heavy price. I truly hope that they don't, and wish them luck. I also hope that their representatives will stop interfering with another labor group who is unified in exercising its right not to merge.

Who knows? Maybe Mr. Horowitz reads this board and will be persuaded by your passion...

[mercpc9]

You continue to demonize and blame the Polar MEC for the self-serving choices your own MEC has made. The Atlas MEC has climbed into bed with Mr. Cato, and Atlas crewmembers are paying the price.

Please, do tell and have some proof of the "self serving choices" of the Atlas MEC. I know of a number of selfless acts of support for Polar by the Atlas MEC and membership that went rewarded with only a campaign of hate and scapegoating by the Polar MEC.

Off the top of my head, I can't remember a time Polar reciprocated any support unless it was of a direct benefit to themselves. Could you please refresh my memory of any?

As far as climbing into bed with management, I guess it's that "all or nothing attitude" the Polar MEC exhibits continuously. I see where that has gotten you. We deal with the problems, the Polar MEC doesn't. What is the phrase Bobb and Robin say? I remember, "WE DON'T TALK TO MANAGEMENT!" quoted at several venues. Yep, that's worked pretty good for you so far. Makes you wonder why you spend money for a union. I forgot, it's to keep Bobb on his houseboat in the Bahamas and Robin in Phoenix soaking up the sun at your memberships expense.

[WhaleFR8]

Originally posted by captvac
Again...there is an arbitration next week. There will be a decision. Whether we like it or not, we must wait for a "disinterested" 3rd party to sort it out. The issue simply is not going to be decided here.Yep an arbitration to decide whether or not Bobbrobin must put this grievance above the numerous grievances that they have not put through to step two. An arbitration to decide whether or not they can have an arbitration. This is a patently obvious delaying tactic as was the petulant hotel issue recently put forth by Bobb - delay delay delay. Of course it affects Atlas.

The Atlas MEC has climbed into bed with Mr. Cato, and Atlas crewmembers are paying the price. So you claim the Atlas MEC has climbed into bed with Cato, and Bobbrobin are intent on making them pay the price? So this really isn't about your contract? It is about making the Atlas MEC pay for some perceived slight?

The delays, gamesmanship, and culture of blame created by Mr. Cato and Mr. Bourne have backfired and, unfortunately, the Atlas crewmembers may very well pay a heavy price. Delays by Bourne and Cato? What delays? The only delay I currently see is from Bobbrobin.
Culture of Blame? Hmmm.... how do you reconcile the Polar strike then; and all the "blame" that was placed on the Atlas pilots during that whole Robin-created-debacle.
I truly hope that they don't, and wish them luck. I also hope that their representatives will stop interfering with another labor group who is unified in exercising its right not to merge. Where is your "right not to merge?" That is clearly a large mistake. You do not have this right. It is the company's right to merge its business units. Bobbrobin cannot dictate this kind of decision to management. Your only right is to quit if you don't like it. It is your MEC who is interfering in the process. If you are so sure that you have a "right not to merge," then let the process go on. Quit interfering.

As I have said many times before. Atlas pilots don't really care about having the Polar Pilots on their list. They just want this mess solved, one way or the other so they can get on with their section 6 and their lives. In fact if the truth be known (and I have said this before too) the Atlas pilots would just as soon you go away - all of you. Leave the planes and route authorities that belonged to Atlas before you came on board and don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out.

L38 (obviously a Polaroid) asked a question on this board. He or she is obviously confused about the right to follow the flying so I answered the question honestly, with your scope clause to back it up. I am sorry if this upsets you; or that you think it demonizes Bobbrobin.

[cptvac]

Merc

When was the last time John Caputo or Dave Bourne operated a Company flight?

The attack on Bobb and Robin continues...

[cptvac]

Whale

Your bias is clouding your processing abilities...

The Polar MEC is not making anyone pay a price for anything. They continue to represent their membership.

The Atlas MEC has indeed climbed into bed with Management and, in my opinion, the Atlas Crewmembers are "paying the price" for their MECs brand of representation. As I indicated, if that is OK with them...fine. Just an observation.

You continue to minimize the Polar Crewmembers rights, and insist that they merge NOW or "get out of the way". Ummmm...no.

You are also welcome to quit. Best of luck to ya...don't let the door...etc.

We'll all get our answers soon enough.

[WhaleFR8]

What Price are the Atlas Pilots paying - ahhh that's right no section 6 ability. No pay raise, no solution to quality of life issues. No solution to the AABO debacle. No solution to the Hotel and Travel issues. All of them created by Bobbrobin and their incessant delaying tactics.

Where is your "right not to merge" spelled out?

I am not minimizing Polar rights at all - "The-Right-Not-to-Merge" is simply not there. If you all were so sure you had this right then the arbitration would have been right at the top of the list. So get on with it. Quit sending every little thing to arbitrators and get to the meat of the problem. What's next? Will Bobbrobin decide to send the choice of a caterer to arbitration? How about the size of the coffee cups in the meeting room? Do they want the seating arrangements arbitrated too?

This is not about the average Polaroid rights - this is about the delaying tactics of Bobbrobin.

I don't insist that the merger happen. In fact I think it is horribly bad for the Atlas pilots - I only insist that Bobbrobbin let the process happen. Polar getting out of the way, and off the Atlas seniority list, would be a dream come true.

As I said before. If you don't want to merge then probably the first step would be to return all of the Atlas Aircraft to Atlas and give back the Atlas route authorities. Just like your strike, you continue to fight your battles with the company through the Atlas pilots. You use that Atlas pilots as a buffer because you are unable, unwilling, or maybe not smart enough to use the tools that would actually make an impact on managements decisions.

[cptvac]

In total, I couldn't disagree with you more, Whale...

The good news: You are going to get your wish in exactly 1 week...we will "get on with it". You may even be happy with the outcome...ya just never know.

[mercpc9]

Didn't think you could come up with anything that the Polar MEC has done in support of Atlas council and it's membership.

Actually, I made no personal attacks. That is what Bobb and Robin are doing. The truth does not make it a personal attack. But I guess that wasn't really the point - avoiding the questions asked of you was.

As to Bourne and Caputo not flying, they don't and don't profess that they do fly to their membership unlike Bobb Henderson does in select crowds. Bourne and Caputo are normally just ten taps of a phone pad away night and day - where I can't say that of Bobb Henderson and Polar MEC.

Anyhow, keeping those up to date here is a recent letter distributed to the Atlas membership after it's sending to Capt Prater President ALPA and the Executive Council.

IN PDF FORMAT 1 MB (http://cptaudio.com/merger/AAIMEC_Prater101507.pdf)

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

[cptvac]

Merc

You criticize Bobb and Robin for not flying...you criticize them for not being "reachable". You just keep nagging...Are you somebody's ex-wife? You are transparent and pointing that out is my only reason for engaging you. I am not here to answer any of your questions.

You post a letter from Mr. Bourne advocating on behalf of the Company.
I understand that this letter must mean something to you (and who knows, maybe to other Atlas Crewmembers). Good. Your MEC Chairman is articulating a position that blames others for the problems of his Crewmembers, dictated by the Company, immediately preceding an arbitration. I get it...politics...Bully for him.

Now, as a Polar Crewmember, I happen to disagree with his view of reality and just who has wronged the Atlas Crewmembers. But that just doesn't matter...the most I can say of this earth-shaking piece of "correspondence" is that it does not mean ANYTHING to me.

One week...then we can all get some answers. Like Whale, you might even like the outcome. This exchange won't change a thing--but I'm here for ya.

I just hope we Polaroids can reach Bobb and Robin between now and then...

[WhaleFR8]

One week...then we can all get some answers. Like Whale, you might even like the outcome. This exchange won't change a thing--but I'm here for ya. One week and we will all know the outcome? For a negotiating committee member you are once again being either naive or disingenuous. The arbitration next week is only to determine whether or not your grievance goes to the top of the pile. But then you knew that didn't you? The actual grievance may or may not be heard in the next millennium.

Because, of course, one assumes that Bobbrobin will have multiple BS grievances between now and the actual grievance to further delay the real issue. Lets see what he comes up with next. Perhaps a grievance to have all bald, angry men removed from negotiation. ....ooops that won't work. Then Robin would have to stay home. Well I am sure he will come up with something.

If you aren't here to answer questions then why are you here?

And as far as good news - that will only come when every Polaroid is removed from the ATLAS seniority list -- permanently.

[cptvac]

Whale

I said you MAY like the outcome...it could be a more rapid process than you indicated. Of course, maybe it won't...

I'm not on the Atlas Seniority list...can't be removed. But I am with you in spirit.

[HurryUp&Retire]

Since atlas pays for your way to get to STN, is it only from USA to STN??? Or can you live in europe and have atlas buy you a ticket to get to STN. For example, say if i live in LED, will atlas buy me a ticket LED-STN???

[mercpc9]

If you live in Europe, I believe you fall into the SPP program. Self Pre Positioning or something like that.

That means they will pay for an equivalent cost of a ticket from STN to the initial start of your pattern since there is no flying out of STN and all interim travel on that pattern. If that is STN to FRA as a DH, your going to get the cost equivalence of what a Ryan Air or any other budget carrier to FRA from STN. That is what the charge is before the weight and other add ons that they do. If you live in Europe, it is a little tough to start a trip in another part of Europe under that. If your pattern starts in someplace outside of Europe, like DXB, then your doing OK with a business class ticket there or DH on company A/C.

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

Slightly off thread, but does anyone know why there have been several recent Atlas 747s at MAN? It seems like 3 in the last week.

Are they bringing in, or taking away?

Any idea what the cargo is, what the origin or destinations of the flights are, and whether it's going to be a regular thing?

[WhaleDriver]

Their Luftansa charters going to Philadelphia Intl. Only five scheduled thru the end of the month. No idea what their hauling. Payloads around 50 tons.

[Furloughed]

Thanks Bobb and Robin, on behalf of all of us crewmembers looking to get on with the show and get fixes, new pay scales, longevity scales, into a combined merged contract. Bobb and Robin know better. I forgot, great job on that last section 6. What was that, an 18 month contract with essentially the same bag of money that was on the table before the strike, just distributed differently?

Regrettably, a true statement about the strike but no different than the STN travel on the one hand but giving up jumpseat positioning on the other.

There will be no fix, no new payscales until the end of a 30 day clock is in view. I just doubt the Atlas MEC and overall pilot ranks has the stomach for it. That is where the blame lies and not with Polar

[mercpc9]

Thanks Bobb and Robin, on behalf of all of us crewmembers looking to get on with the show and get fixes, new pay scales, longevity scales, into a combined merged contract. Bobb and Robin know better. I forgot, great job on that last section 6. What was that, an 18 month contract with essentially the same bag of money that was on the table before the strike, just distributed differently?

Regrettably, a true statement about the strike but no different than the STN travel on the one hand but giving up jumpseat positioning on the other.

There will be no fix, no new payscales until the end of a 30 day clock is in view. I just doubt the Atlas MEC and overall pilot ranks has the stomach for it. That is where the blame lies and not with Polar

There will be no fix until the Polar side decides to stop side stepping the merger with a wish list of "make believe" section 6 negotiations. The arbitrations of if the merger priority sequence grievance (just heard) followed by the merger grievance itself being heard will determine that.

After Atlas crewmembers experienced the help from the Polar MEC side that pledged solidarity and then the Polar MEC requested relief from that pledge of "not flying Atlas A/C and contracts" when it came down to the eleventh hour of the Atlas strike countdown, I can see why Atlas crewmembers do not have the stomach for it. Let's see, Polar volunteering to scab and AACS all willing to fly our A/C and routes let alone the non union carriers that were contracted on the side. Probably being smart more than not having the stomach for it as you suggest. Especially after the Polar MEC showed their true colors volunteering Polar's membership to scab at the eleventh hour.

VS

The Atlas membership going on a sympathy strike despite all of the previous sabotaging actions by the Polar MEC to Atlas crewmembers showed more stomach than anything demonstrated by Polar. A sympathy strike in which we were ordered back to work by the federal court. No other carrier did that for you, only Atlas. Atlas crewmembers showed a lot of stomach and solidarity. Only to be rewarded by another knife in the back for their efforts. Exampled here in streaming MP3 HERE (back in Jan 2007) (http://cptaudio.com/mp3/jan13vars.m3u) or Right Click Here and Save As (http://cptaudio.com/mp3/jan13vars.mp3).

Scorecard wise, I have yet to see any real effort on the Polar side to get along with others as a union. More of a What have you done for me today attitude. Can you produce anything otherwise? I mean in action and not in words. We at Atlas now know that Polar's words mean nothing when it comes down to living up to them.

Are you listening Astar guys? Watch your backs.

It appears that the Bobb Henderson and Robin Hair show have you geared only towards a Section 6 negotiation that will lead to a repeat of the past Atlas and Polar actions again. Except I doubt that the Atlas side will do more than what is legally required by them. No voluntary sympathy strikes as we did for you in the past. We have seen what that has gotten us. I'm sure Polar will repeat their volunteering to fly our stuff again if we have to strike.

So it seems to be true that Polar has a short and selective memory.

Should the merger get blocked through this latest tactic by the Polar MEC and section 6 negotiations start, we will be repeating history except there will be no support. Not that Polar side provided any for the other union anyway.

Having said this, I have a hard time believing an arbiter finding for Polar in these arbitrations. Time will tell.

All of this over the "follow the flying" which was already decided by an arbitration of the seniority lists earlier this year.

[cptvac]

Merc

Since you are the source of all information for both pilot groups, when can we expect you to post the eleventh hour resolution put before the Executive Council this week? Though it further undermined your MEC's credibility at ALPA, fairness dictates that you share...

[WhaleFR8]

Vac,
Since you have never been to an EC we assume that it is Robin that has questions? I am not sure why he is turning to us for the info but we are happy to oblige. So which resolution? The one that was actually requested by some EC members demanding the merger proceed; or the one for the battle stars commending the Atlas pilots for their secondary strike help during the Polar strike.

Merc or I would be happy to explain whichever one Robin doesn't understand.

[cptvac]

The resolution that was not adopted would be fine...thanks for asking.

[mercpc9]

cptvac,

I don't have the resolutions, but I don't think I have posted any resolutions in the past for or against Atlas or Polar. Only commented on some. So I don't think I have been biased. I don't generally go to the EC's since it would be on my own dime. I have yet to come across anyone willing to snag me a copy of any. Feel free to have Robin send me them for posting. Preferably in PDF format. They will be fact checked though. It wouldn't be the first time he had a document that change after leaving his hands (buried in the Seniority Arbitration Transcripts Click Here OR Right Click and "Save As" (txt format) (http://cptaudio.com/merger/finalcombinedtranscripts.txt))

Kind of funny and a shame, most on the EC thought Robin Hair was part of the Polar MEC until just recently. Too bad your whole MEC (to include the Vice MEC and Sect. Treas) can't show up for them. I guess they are not part of the trusted group ordained by Robin Hair and Bobb Henderson.

As to the resolutions submitted by Atlas, I believe both passed eventually. The one urging Polar to move on with the merger required a rewrite before passing I believe and the Battle Stars one without a rewrite.



Now, since your so full of questions and have side stepped mine in the past a couple of times. Why don't you answer this:



Originally Posted by cptvac
You continue to demonize and blame the Polar MEC for the self-serving choices your own MEC has made. The Atlas MEC has climbed into bed with Mr. Cato, and Atlas crewmembers are paying the price.Please, do tell and have some proof of the "self serving choices" of the Atlas MEC. I know of a number of selfless acts of support for Polar by the Atlas MEC and membership that went rewarded with only a campaign of hate and scapegoating by the Polar MEC.

Off the top of my head, I can't remember a time Polar reciprocated any support unless it was of a direct benefit to themselves. Could you please refresh my memory of any?

[JohnGalt]

Merc----

I am not a Polaroid or an Atlas guy---Just an outsider. My curiosity in the Atlas/Polar feud is only why you are so compulsive, diabolical, demeaning, and laser-like in your hatred to the Polar folks. That is the impression I get from your postings.

Frankly, I just don't understand. Seems like the Polaroids want to go their own way and that, based upon your past opinings, is fine with the Atlas guys.

So why all the vitroilic comments? Why do you persist in your quest to debunk, undermine, meddle, and counter any processes that are in play?

I picture you as a drunk who has no life and who only lives vicariously through the internent. It is the only explanation that I can conger up that seems to give you a sense of purpose to your existence (whatever purpose that may be) to go on, to go to bed, to wake up the next day, and to renew again the onslaught. WHY?

What is it that you are trying accomplish?

[cptvac]

Merc

You have ordained yourself (with Whale) as the only reliable sources of info for all pilots Polar and Atlas...just thought we could keep that flow of information...uh...flowing. Can't say I'm really full of questions--just cynical commentary. Sidestep? More like completely disregard.

Turns out neither resolution was adopted...how and when they were presented is fascinating though...best that comes from your "fact-checkers" directly.

As for the rest, it just wouldn't be a Merc (Atlas MEC) post if it didn't blame Robin (or Bobb) for something...anything...everything.

As for doing us favors...please, you've done enough. We just don't deserve this much love.

[mercpc9]

Gee, I must have struck a nerve.

JohnGalt,

For not being a Polaroid or Atlas guy as you advertise, your only two posts have only been on this feud. I seriously doubt your neutrality here. Especially with the depth of your knowledge of what you think is going on with your first post Click Here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3635639&postcount=50).

If you seriously don't understand the Atlas memberships dislike of their treatment by the Polar MEC's multiple actions over and over again, then you are only listening to what sounds good versus what is the truth. Or your being disingenuous. Most likely you are just a Polar guy pretending not to be here. Probably prompted by a few focused on here.

I've said it before. Most at Atlas would have been completely happy never acquiring Polar when they were going belly up. We would have not lost as many jobs, A/C, and upgrades to Polar when Atlas management decided to tweak us during our first T/A contract rejection as punishment and moved A/C and contracts over to Polar to make a point. Why listen to me. Click on flash slide show CLICK HERE (http://cptaudio.com/AkinsAtlasFinalw2q.swf) and click on each image to go to the next one. It gives a more precise history of events that is also backed up with my previously posted transcripts of the seniority arbitration.

I have not hidden my dislikes, but at least I put up facts that are backed up. Putting up the facts is also what I'm trying to accomplish. Not controlling a union membership by keeping them in the dark and using another council as the excuse for all their problems as the Polar MEC has been doing.


cptvac,

I see that you still will not answer my question. Pretty much says it all in character and act.

Turns out neither resolution was adopted...how and when they were presented is fascinating though...best that comes from your "fact-checkers" directly.

It appears that I stand corrected, if we are to believe you. Please go on. It would not be the first time I've been misinformed. Is there anything that you can show us to back this up? I mean beside what Robin tells you. I only have a phone call I didn't tape so far.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

[LANCERDVR]

Merc9 and those who respond to his half truths and misinformation, ENOUGH already.

Merc9, what you have been doing is directly contributing to managements efforts to keep these two pilot groups at each others throats. If I knew your name I would not hesitate to file a complaint with ALPA and request an Article VIII investigation into your activities. I suspect you may even be a member of AAWH managments team. AAWH management has no intent to merge these two pilot groups. Its intent is to keep both groups tied up and out of negotiations for new contracts. This merger is nothing more than a ruse. Put simply, how can AAWH say it is merging two ailines, but will maintain both airlines operating certificates, operate both airlines separately, manage both airlines separately, and claim it is a complete operational merger, which requires the pilot groups to merge???Think of the precedent this would set industry wide if this were allowed to go forth without challenge.

The Polar MEC has worked tirelessly to protect the rights of the Polar pilot group, period. The Atlas MEC should try to do the same thing instead of sucking up to AAWH management and undermining the Polar MEC. The Atlas pilot group deserves the same staunch representation provided by Captain Henderson and Captain Hair. Who knows, maybe if the company gets serious about a merger, the result could be one company, one pilot group and one MEC. If so, from what I have heard on the line from both pilot groups, it won't be the likes of the current Atlas MEC.

Ok, ENOUGH already!!!!!!!!

[mercpc9]

Good to see that some are coming out of the mushroom shed and into the light. Deprogramming hopefully will ensue.

The how of merging - has been covered a few pages back with two certificates remaining intact. Currently exampled by Air Micronesia and Continental. ALPA President Prater even told Bobb Henderson that. So not to repeat it again, go back and read some of the thread. Not just the last page.

I see you posted from Seoul. I won't be through there during your layover to explain and provide evidence further. Maybe we will bump into each other down the road.

I find it odd that Bobb and Robin have not tried initiating an Article VIII. Especially since they know who I am. Maybe they don't want any of my unpublished evidence of their actions brought forth in my defense or maybe they just don't want to throw stones in a glass house? Maybe, they just don't have any basis to file an article VIII against me.

The Polar MEC has worked tirelessly to protect the rights of the Polar pilot group, period.
I agree. They have.

Predominately at the expense of the Atlas membership which has been covered on many threads here on Pprune in the past. The merger stalling is just the most recent. I have said it before. Separate section 6 negotiations will just repeat the bad past history of us being used against each other (i.e. shifting of A/C, contracts and furloughs back and forth). Merging will take that particular attack against us out of managements grasp and better merged contract.

[LANCERDVR]

Well that's good to know. I will be speaking with Captain Henderson to ask your name. I will take the time to put the case together and file Article VIII charges against you myself. Having been a 3 term MEC Chairman with another ALPA carrier, and having spent 3 terms fighting the likes of Larey Risley and Johnathon Ornstein, I think I am qualified to say that the Polar MEC, led by Captain Henderson, and the Polar Negotiating Com., led by Captain Haire, symbolize what we all envision as fine representatives of our proud profession.

As for your ludicrous postings, if the Atlas MEC would remove themselves from AAWH management pouch (including you Merc9) and lead its pilot group from labors position, we could all have industry leading contracts in short order.

You state that merging removes managements ability to play one off the other. What's to stop mgmt from aquiring another airline once the merger is complete? Then what, another 5 years without a contract? Back to square one!

What we need is for the Atlas MEC to stand up and fight management and stop undermining the Polar MECs ability to do the same. What needs to be done is for the Atlas MEC to be purged and a new MEC willing to stand up to Mgmt be installed. The many Atlas pilots I have had the pleasure to meet and speak with all agree, would someone please put these two mgmt suck-ups out to pasture!!! Everyday that goes by is another day without a new contract for either pilot group.

[mercpc9]

I won't comment on your qualifications or your proficiency. The content of your posts foreshadows both. As for your threatened article VIII, I will be awaiting it.

The "in managements pocket" Polar MEC chant is really old and untrue. I don't know of any MEC's in "managements pockets" that take their (Atlas) membership out on a sympathy strike for another council's (Polar) when they didn't have to. The Polar MEC has done just about everything they could to gain at the expense of the Atlas council. Which applies today. Even cptvac can't come up with a time or place that your council has reciprocated any support for the Atlas membership.

I guess you have a short memory of just how individual negotiations went last time. Now that you are down to about 7 A/C, you would think a review of history would help. You are right about them buying another airline as history proved out. They bought another airline (Polar) when the Atlas membership started negotiating our initial contract, created another airline called GSS and a crew leasing company called AACS. Merging would help get rid of the Polar/AACS and everyone gets to keep their jobs with a new combined merged contract.

Lets merge, get a new combined contract, and you can run for the finalized MEC. Lets see how that turns out.

[whaledriver101]

Nah,, lets not merge.

[LANCERDVR]

Hey Merc, I have no problem with you having a different opinion than my own. I do have a problem with you constantly telling half the story, half truths, and complete lies. So lets clear up one of your blatant lies.

As the Atlas strike countdown was in progress, Polar MEC chairman Fell spoke with Captain Bourne, he stated that Polar pilots were obligated to fly Atlas owned aircraft on dry lease to Polar from prior to the start of the Atlas cooling off period. He stated that no Polar pilot would fly in violation of the Atlas struck work rules, which stated "no Polar pilot would fly any Atlas aircraft transferred to the Polar certificate post start of the cooling off period". Polar could not staff its own aircraft at the time more or less and influx of Atlas aircraft. I have never known a more staunch group of unionized pilots. In fact, the Atlas MEC buckled in the final moments, and in order to save face blamed and twisted the words of the Polar MEC chairman to shift blame. Think about it, it was in the Polar groups best interests for the Atlas pilots to get an industry leading contract. Polar pilots had already demonstrated its own solidarity and staunch union position by calling its own strike in 1999.

As for your sympathy strike, how long did it actually last, I beleive we were on strike for about 3 weeks, the sympathy strike lasted how many minutes? The Atlas MEC was under a huge amount of pressure to support Polar from ALPA national. The sympathy strike was merely the MEC throwing a bone to a group of hungry dogs. It was interesting how Captain Bourne would record a supportive message on the Atlas VARS and within a few hours FO Cappoto would record a deragatory message undermining the strike. I remember having many fellow ALPA airline members walking the line alongside Polar pilots, I don't recall one Atlas pilot. Merc, I will be scouring your previous posts for some time, you have over 200, guess you have a lot of time on your hands. Your slide show is quite impressive fiction, looks like something Mr. Cato prepared himself. What I find will determine if I go forward with your Article VIII.

If you have any say (and I suspect you do) I would highly recommend you proceed with your own negotiations. The Polar pilot group will stand by you in complete solidarity, just as we would have back in 01.

[WhaleFR8]

I do have a problem with you constantly telling half the story, half truths, and complete lies.And we have the same problem with you. Below are just a few of YOUR half truths - but perhaps you just don't know any better.

As the Atlas strike countdown was in progress, Polar MEC chairman Fell spoke with Captain Bourne, he stated that Polar pilots were obligated to fly Atlas owned aircraft on dry lease to Polar from prior to the start of the Atlas cooling off period. He stated that no Polar pilot would fly in violation of the Atlas struck work rules, which stated "no Polar pilot would fly any Atlas aircraft transferred to the Polar certificate post start of the cooling off period". Yup that is all true - up until the LAST HOUR prior to the Atlas strike when there was yet another conversation between Fell and Bourne in which Fell told Bourne that all bets were off and if Atlas went on strike the Polar pilots would be staffing six Atlas aircraft the next day. But perhaps you weren't told that little factoid. There were others present who actually heard the conversation so this fact is indisputable.

Polar could not staff its own aircraft at the time more or less and influx of Atlas aircraft. Totally not true. The influx at Polar has been tracked, diagrammed and explained to Bobb and Robin many times; some times in front of an arbitrator. Polar had plenty of crewmembers, hired explicitly to staff the six additional aircraft that Cato would have sent over. This also is an incontrovertible fact supported by many documents not the least of which is the ill conceived list that Hair, Fell, and the previous Atlas MEC put together.

In fact, the Atlas MEC buckled in the final moments, and in order to save face blamed and twisted the words of the Polar MEC chairman to shift blame. Well they did recommend a TA because they were faced with a group of unionized brothers threatening to do what many Polaroids have since accused Atlas pilots of doing. Except in this instance the Polaroids really would have been flying Atlas aircraft and thus would have met the ALPA definition of a scab. ALPA national also didn't want a strike, and put incredible pressure on the MEC to recommend a TA.

As for your sympathy strike, how long did it actually last, I beleive we were on strike for about 3 weeks, the sympathy strike lasted how many minutes? It lasted until the judge ordered Atlas pilots to go back to work.

The Atlas MEC was under a huge amount of pressure to support Polar from ALPA national. So - Atlas pilots and the MEC supported Polar until a judge ordered them not to. In fact they supported Polar even though this was not a real strike. Polar did not put up real picket lines - instead they parked cars by the airport with signs on them. Is THAT a picket line. They didn't strike like the real trade unionists did during the Wien strike or the Eastern strike. They only came out to the airport and picketed when Atlas planes were inbound; otherwise they were warm and dry in a hotel. You all had no problems letting the FedEx and UPS pilots cross your picket line. Many other ALPA carriers crossed your lines - and you did NOTHING. It was, Bar none, the wimpiest strike I have ever seen. Yet Atlas pilots supported you until the judge told them not to - and still you sprinkle guano all over them. Shame on you! If you are the ardent ALPA supporter and trade unionist you claim to be then you should know better.

The sympathy strike was merely the MEC throwing a bone to a group of hungry dogs. You said it! And you are all still hungry. Hungry for Atlas aircraft, hungry for the route authorities, and hungry for the contracts. And you will step on anyone to get them.

I remember having many fellow ALPA airline members walking the line alongside Polar pilots, I don't recall one Atlas pilot. Then you weren't in Anchorage.

Merc, I will be scouring your previous posts for some time, you have over 200, guess you have a lot of time on your hands. Your slide show is quite impressive fiction, looks like something Mr. Cato prepared himself. What I find will determine if I go forward with your Article VIII.Please please let us help you. We would all welcome and article VIII hearing to get all the lies and disingenuous statements and half truths made by your leadership out in the open.

You all just don't get it do you? As a pilot group - no matter how solid or staunch you are - you cannot dictate how a company does business. The company has said they are going to merge the seniority list. Your contract scope clause and merger and acquisition sections has some serious stipulations that the company must follow. It is, in fact, a very good scope clause. HOWEVER, Bobbb signed it all away when he signed the back to work agreement after your failed strike. The Atlas MEC whom YOU publicly accused of colluding with the company (perhaps a section VIII is in order for you??) realized long ago that the company meant what it said. They also realized that in the Atlas pilots first contract the scope clause is not really strong enough to allow them to do anything about it. So they decided to believe the company and in good faith entered into merger talks with the Polaroids (who at the time were virtually clamoring for a merged list and merger talks).

Every Atlas pilot respects the Polaroids right to file a grievance over this. What they don't respect is the incessant delays. If you all think your case is so strong then why put it off. Put the thing at the top of the list and get it done. Personally I don't know of one single Atlas pilot that wants to merge with you - period. What they do want is to get this millstone off their necks one way or another and get to a new contract.

If you actually were a "three term MEC chairman at another ALPA carrier," you would understand this, and you would know exactly what Bobb is doing - and why. Just as everyone outside of Polar does. IF you do have any contacts left at ALPA then I suggest you call them and find out the straight scoop on the antics of the Polar MEC.

[mercpc9]

We at Atlas had no problem with the aircraft and contracts that were transfered to Polar prior to the strike being flown and understood the legal reasons why - though ticked off somewhat by it after receiving furloughs. It would have been wrong and illegal of us to ask Polar not to fly those. The true purpose of the transfer was to slap the Atlas membership down after rejecting the first TA salaried contract and not an economic one as stated by management.

This cannot be said of the Polar Chairman when it was his turn. He was calling the Atlas membership scabs when those same (originally Atlas) A/C and Contracts were transfered back to Atlas a few months before your strike count down even started. He also requested that we don't fly those trips and A/C long before the start of your strike countdown. So It's OK when Polar does it and not when it's done by Atlas? Legally, we couldn't refuse doing it just like Polar couldn't for those prior to the respective strike countdowns. I guess I will be compelled to provide that evidence during my Article VIII you plan on filing on me in my defense. Maybe we should bring in the FBI also. Doesn't that fall under Racketeering? Maybe you should call Bobb H. on that.

What happened at the "eleventh hour" (really @ twenty minutes prior to the Atlas strike release) was Chairman Fell requesting relief from the struck work agreement to fly more Atlas A/C and Contracts after strike initiation. Which was at that time 6 more A/C and the 6 China Airlines contracts we were actively flying. Bob Fell called them new contracts. Proved out during the Henderson "Get All the Liars" in one spot meeting mediated by the retired AFL-CIO Sect Treasurer. I believe it was Fell that left the meeting when the meeting turned to that and our third party witness to the act entered the room.

The sympathy strike initially lasted about three days (it was a weekend) before they got a Federal court order making us go back to work. Bobb H ended up lying about that also. Ended up getting one of his VARS pulled by National when they got a hold of its contents. The temporary restraining orders are located AT THIS SITE under TRO1 and 2 (http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/).

Funny, I can remember three or four Atlas guys off the top of my head that picketed up in ANC with the Polar guys. Their reward was their name being put in for an Article VIII charge and a pprune post listing them as scabs.

Could you please go back and read this and the other threads on this issue. We are going in circles as in previous posts on this. I can back my stuff up, but I can't say the same of you.

[CR2]

As I mentioned on the Polar thread, do not post scab lists here.

:=

[mercpc9]

Having said most points in my previous post, here is a power point presentation better suited that was given to the ALPA Executive Council on it in the specific time line of events. Not sure if you were just looking at the Atkins evidence in the seniority arbitration flash power point.

Click Here for Flash Power Point (http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/Jan24_2006PresentationtoALPAExecutiveCouncil.swf). Click on each image to continue to next.

Apologies to the rest for getting him up to speed with the rest of us.

[cptvac]

Whale

Are you seriously stating for the record that Polar was overstaffed to the extent that it could operate six aircraft (from Atlas) "the next day"?

Merc

Again...Dr. Campbells' "Polar" presentation trumped Atkins "Atlas" presentation. Only Atkins returned to admit his...um..."errors". To a large degree, this is why the Polar side prevailed--an inconvenient truth. However, can't blame you for using the presentation at any opportunity...very expensive if ineffective.

[rugr84us]

Does Merc, or Whale ever have anything new, or just their same old click-on's ? It is really getting old..... Need to close this thread too !

[WhaleFR8]

Of course you were overstaffed. An example is your idea of staffing during the merger talks. You stated that you had 30 aircraft when you came to the mix. Your MEC claimed this to inflate the number of crewmembers on your list even though they KNEW it was not true. Thus they attempted to dilute the mixture in the merged list. Did you think the Atlas pilots were not aware of this? It was yet another falsehood as many of the aircraft you all claimed were yours were not even flying. We all know that GE used Polaris Leasing (the Embryonic Polar Air Cargo) as a place to store parked lease returns from many carriers such as Tigers. Many of the aircraft you claimed you were operating were in storage or parked. You essentially brought 5 airplanes to the merger mix - which equals 123 pilots, yet still you have 170 on your roster now and claimed that many more were tied to the "business" you brought to the merger mix. So tell us what all these extra people that were there for the "business" were going to fly - Atlas aircraft of course.

It is a fact that you had well over 300 people just before the Atlas cooling off period - but did not have near the aircraft to support those crewmembers - oh I forgot they were there for the "business". In any case, you were certainly staffed sufficient to support an additional six aircraft the next day. If you had paid attention during the merger discussions you would have seen the excel timeline presentation that compared aircraft to crewmembers. The Polar staffing was plenty to absorb those aircraft. Hiding behind this half truth, however, is typical of you.

What planet were you on when you claim Campbell's research trumped Akins? His testimony was not worth the very few hours it took to accomplish. In any case arbitrator Harris pretty much totally discounted all economic testimony from both sides so your assertion that you somehow won that particular facet of the battle is an outright falsehood. I find it kind of funny that you had to hire Campbell at the last minute due to the fact that your initial "expert" was so poorly prepared and uneducated. He initially had no idea that Atlas had Scheduled Service route authority to many different countries. Too many years of drinkin beer at Auburn I guess.

And if the Polar side "prevailed" as you say, then what is your problem? You prevailed - then you should move forward with the merger.

I am curious why you cannot or will not answer Merc's question.



Ruger - well don't read it then. The response to the continued half truths, outright lies, and disingenuous dissembling by the Polar leadership has always remained the same. It is the same because it is the truth. No matter which way Bobb directs his minions to attack the truth - we continue to present it for those who care.

[layinlow]

I think this is a repeat.
Anyway, T.H, K.M, and all those who ply the midnight skies, it is holiday time and let's hope everyone has a good one. The industry has been on its butt way too long.
Happy Thanksgiving.

[mercpc9]

Thanks Dr. T. (W.T.) for the holiday salutations. From all of us that ply the midnight sky.


cptvac,

Since you will not answer my previous questions about solidarity and such while I have happily answered yours and everyone else's, why should I reciprocate.


.......hhmmm

The standard "what have you done for me today" stuff from the Polar leadership side???

Sorry Dude, that doesn't work for my brotherhood or me.

Side note. There have really been a number of new posters that seem to share the same IP address. I don't want to be judgmental, but if your sleeping with a Polar guy and want to share his views, knock yourself out sharing that same computer. If your not and just trying to look like multiple persons, quit using multiple logins from one IP address expressing Polar views as multiple persons when your not.

[rugr84us]

Who is ruger ? You must be Whaleger ! It just gets old seeing the same old stuff you took the time to put together for this Forum only. You need another hobby. Why don't you put the Atkins response on here too for all to see ? Kev, you need to calm down, you get too stressed.

[cptvac]

Whale

Under your staffing scenario, Polar had a 25-30% surplus of crewmembers in some sort of standby mode? Ummmm...NO.

"Prevailed" is a relative term...there is more to the merger issue than the Seniority Integration (in which Polar indeed prevailed judging by the Atlas whining on this very forum). Because there is more, there is no merger.

Merc

I can safely say there is no brotherhood here. Speaking for myself, I have done nothing for you or in your name and do not intend to. If, however, you ever find yourself in the unfortunate circumstance of being on strike--I will never--not one time--cross your picket line, fly your freight, or wish evil upon you. Not because I would be doing you a favor, but because it is wrong. Clear?

[mercpc9]

Merc

I can safely say there is no brotherhood here. Speaking for myself, I have done nothing for you or in your name and do not intend to.

If, however, you ever find yourself in the unfortunate circumstance of being on strike--I will never--not one time--cross your picket line, fly your freight, or wish evil upon you. Not because I would be doing you a favor, but because it is wrong. Clear?

I can agree with your first part.

As to the second part. I don't want to test that again or have your MEC Chairman volunteer you to do so -- as in the past, putting you in a position to make that call on your own unsupported. Exampled by the Fell Chairmanship.

Judging from the testimony at the ALPA hearing on the "SCAB" issue this week from one of your own (polar) running the strike on your side -- The Atlas pilots did not scab. Of course, he said that before to the ALPA Executive Council. Unfortunately, that collided with what MEC Chairman Bobb H. wanted spread. Considering Bobb H. was calling us scabs long before your strike, I'm not surprised that your membership gladly followed along with it. Life is easier when you can blame someone else for your problems.

[cptvac]

Atlas MEC Playbook:

PLAY #1:
"Life is easier when you can blame someone else for your problems."

PLAY #2:
See PLAY #1.




Ironic...

[mercpc9]

There is a difference between defending yourself and blaming others.

The Atlas side has had to defend itself not only from management, but it's sister union. If we didn't have to, I would have never showed up here or continued to defend the Atlas membership.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/hiring/logs.pl

[cptvac]

Merc

Delete "Atlas", insert "Polar" and you describe my own motives...again, ironic.

I asked politely that the Bobb/Robin diatribe not begin again--but you began and continued it for what reason I do not know...I only suspect.

As I have stated, the rapid-fire series of arbitrations are taking place and will decide large issues...but these were/are not good enough--you and your MEC have attempted to interfere with that process often quoting the Company CONMAN you claim not to lie with in VARS messages, in EC resolutions, and yes...on pprune. A truly coordinated effort.

The record is clear who is the aggressor and who is the defender...and I feel distinctly defensive. We must have better things to do, but if we must engage in "trench warfare", engage I will.

This thing will go through to the end regardless of the belly-aching,posturing, and back-stabbing...And again, the Atlas pilots have their own leadership to blame for their lot...not Bobb, not Robin, not Bob Fell.

See ya on Monday for the artillery barrage and gas attack.

[mercpc9]

I have to agree with you on one of your points.

For the most part, you been completely on the defensive in your arguments, accusations, and assertions. Nothing to back up what you say and usually juvenile one liners in retort.

As to the arbitrations, I will be more than glad to publish the good or bad as I have in the past for the benefit of the Polar and Atlas group when I can get info. Mostly for the benefit of the Polar group. The Atlas membership gets this stuff released as a normal course of union communications when it wouldn't benefit management during negotiations. I can't say the same for the Polar side on it's communications.

[cptvac]

And the Polar pilots Thank You...

You've been less than successful in your assignment to undermine the Polar MEC. The more you state how informed and satisfied your group is with their leadership, the weaker you look. Both sides know the reality, and both sides know the Atlas leadership is actively working to undermine the Polar Crewmembers and mask their own ineffectiveness. So what.

Merc, I am not going to debate you on whose fault anything is or the terrible effect you and your leadership have on Polar Crewmembers, ALPA, and professional aviators everyday--because it just doesn't matter anymore. We will defend and move on if we possibly can, and the Atlas Crewmembers are welcome to the leadership that they eagerly follow. Our debate will change nothing, and my insights and disclosures would only be interpreted as sour grapes. Afterall, I am not trying to convince Atlas Crewmembers of anything. Wish 'em luck in future endeavors...

Having just completed a Crewmember Survey on the 29th, I am confident the Polar Crewmembers are quite well informed and indicate the direction they would like to follow. I sincerely hope their rights are upheld and they have the opportunity to follow that path. And it should be a relief to the Atlas pilots that the path is a solitary one. But then you know that.

Juvenile one-liners? Ahhhh, you fail to appreciate my youthful exhuberance and sage wisdom...a shame.

[CR2]

Closing this one now.