PDA

View Full Version : EL AL accident at CDG?


DONTTELLTHEPAX
13th Apr 2007, 17:55
El Al plane delayed in Paris following accident in runway

Published: 04.13.07, 13:39 / Israel News

An El Al flight from Paris to Tel Aviv has been delayed due to an accident. An initial investigation revealed that the plane crashed into a vehicle on the runway. :eek:
There were no reports of injures.

Runway or ramp :confused:

Clandestino
13th Apr 2007, 20:34
Taxiway, actually.

sidestick driver
14th Apr 2007, 04:14
El Al 747-400 decided to see how far he could push the tug and tow bar, whilst it was all still connected to the aircraft, after push back. He started engines and decided it was time to taxi, probably without consulting the ground crew. El Al taxied about about 40 metres when the ground crew scrambled for their lives. I believe the tug dissapeared towards the right, still connected, jack knived into engine 3, the engine is very torn up underneith (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=50&u=11047771).
Eisch!:ugh:
http://i10.servimg.com/u/f10/11/04/77/71/dsc00011.jpg
http://i10.servimg.com/u/f10/11/04/77/71/dsc00014.jpg

Dream Land
14th Apr 2007, 09:13
:uhoh: A wise captain taught me never to do the after start check list until the ground crew had given us the all clear signal...

captjns
14th Apr 2007, 09:49
Usually all wise captains and wise first officers, with the exception of those few who choose to go into business for themselves, follow their companys' SOPs... thus not accomplishing the after start check list until hand signals are received by the ground crew. This includes the observance of the nose wheel steering by-pass pin when appropriate.

babemagnet
14th Apr 2007, 10:26
Some pictures:


http://aviapassion.forumactif.com/Terminal-3-Aviation-reelle-c3/3B-Spotting-Photos-Videos-perso-f14/La-rencontre-d-un-push-et-d-un-744-El-Al-t3297.htm

Right Way Up
14th Apr 2007, 10:45
Unfortunately not all airlines are wise enough to have this SOP. Then at the companies that do, there are those skygods who do not need to adhere to this obviously petty rule.
Watching some crews pushback and taxi, I wonder if I am at an airfield or in the pitlane at Monza!:=

flyboyike
14th Apr 2007, 16:14
Wow! Apparently, even El Al isn't perfect.

DX Wombat
14th Apr 2007, 16:49
the engine is very torn up underneith.
The tug doesn't appear to be in the rudest of health either. :( It's good to know they managed to get out in time. :ok:

Heilhaavir
14th Apr 2007, 20:13
<<Wow! Apparently, even El Al isn't perfect.>>

Who is?;)

GBALU53
14th Apr 2007, 20:45
Was there a language barrier??

Centaurus
15th Apr 2007, 04:50
It was a silly mistake but crew dont get to drive heavy metal like that without lots of experience

Oh I don't know about that. There are many airlines using F/O's with less than 1000 hours total time and there is no way you can call those pilots "experienced" - unless you compare them with the new breed being currently trained to fly "heavy metal" with 40 hours (?) total aeroplane time and a couple of hundred in a simulator.

Pilot Pete
15th Apr 2007, 12:21
Does the 1000 hour co-pilot taxi the aircraft? But I agree it can contribute to the captains stresses and distractions. Depends which airline the co-pilot works for. But in this situation it is irrelevant whether the co-pilot taxis or not; it is a two crew aircraft, so the co-pilot should voice his concerns if the captain is about to taxi with the tug still attached. Who is to say that the co-pilot didn't do this on this occassion? We don't know as we don't have the facts. What seems obvious is that the aircraft taxied with the tug still attached, so a mistake (possibly more than one) was made which lead to this unfortunate incident. It has happened many times before and will continue to happen as humans are not perfect. We are paid to risk manage and to adhere to systems which hopefully minimize that risk, but no system is perfect. I personally have always waited until I have seen the pin and got the wave off before completing the after start checklist, but my SOPs have changed which allow the majority of the after start checks to be completed before the pushback is complete.....I shall be taking extra, extra care over my first few days (and then onwards!) that we do indeed complete the checks after seeing the pin.....I can see potential for problems and mishaps due to a change in 'culture' with our new SOP for after start......:sad:

PP

navtrack
15th Apr 2007, 13:07
Very surprised this happen ! Didn't the crew felt anything while starting to taxi. With the truck still connected, this would request more power than usual, or maybe the truck was already disconnected but not yet left !

A B744, not at a very high gross weight, doesn't need power more than idle to start taxi. I rarely use power to start taxi on the B744, make so more safety behind, and in this case, it would in front for the ground staff and the material.

AN2 Driver
15th Apr 2007, 13:21
According to the French forum, the tug disconnected and the marshaller connected with the headset told the crew so. At that moment, the crew spooled up the engines quite severely and started rolling, sending all personel on the ground scrambling away to save themselves. The guy at the headset was still connected, so the all clear had definitly not been given.

Same thing did happen to me many moons ago as a load controller at ZRH with a DC8. Thankfully the tug was already out of the trajectory and all I had to do once ATC told the guy to stop is to go retrieve my headset which had been ripped of my head. They later told me they had not heard me shouting at them to stop....

The same message also sais that it was to be the last flight of the commander before retirement and they had a huge party of honor waiting at TLV to meet the plane. What a pity to end a career like this!

55yrsSLC_10yearsPPL
16th Apr 2007, 09:57
For decades we have use wheel hubs with integrated hydraulic motors on mobile cranes and on self-propelled heavy platform trailers.

Would the cost of thousands of pushers and their crew all over the world not warrant the development of a pilot-operated front wheel hub with an integrated hydraulic drive motor ? level ground - short distance.

FIMbar the Furious
16th Apr 2007, 17:46
In 20 years as an Engineer I have had crew taxi on me twice and both apologised as soon as I talked to them on the headset, very embaressed and I doubt they would do it again so no need to take it further. I have also had to investigate 2 instances after getting to a more senior position, and found the airlines concearned take it very seriously.

My experience of CDG is that ElAl have their own maint who are the on headset for the pushback so cant see a language issue here.

As a side note though the GHA staff at CDG do not use standard hand signals on pushbacks and never seam to position a wing man. I was always very wary with certain GHA companies there.

One downside in the drive towards towbarless tractors is that GHAs will now only send the truck and driver, so when disconecting the truck I am distracted ensuring my headset cord does not get caught up in the truck and also have had to guide a driver away from the Aircraft when the ruck was close to the nose wheels. Basic stuff I know but mistakes at this time are just as dangerous as any other.

Let ElAl do the investigation before anyone gets blamed, crew may have messed up, A/C may have had a park brake fault, ground crew may have not followed procs we dont know

Heliplane
18th Apr 2007, 16:13
Looking at the picture, it looks like there's a crack in the vertical section connecting the outer engine to the wing.