P3 logging Hours

[Deskjocky]

Can any one shed some light on how a P3 on wide body logs hours, also do they get a full type ratign for the aircraft or not?

[The Actuator]

Why do you need to know?

[south coast]

What a crap answer Actuator.

Are there requirements for wanting to know the answer to something on here?

I am afraid I dont know the answer, but sure some SAA cadets/boy pilots should be able to tell you.

I think it would be logged as cruise hours, and I think the rating depends on what your company's policy is.

[Deskjocky]

Thanks for the reply South Coast, thats kind of what I thought as well- hopefully someone in the know will advise.

[The Actuator]

it's only a crap answer if you have no understanding of the level of distrust between the pilot's and management at saa. DJ is a manager if I recall and why would he not be able to ask one of the pilot managers who float around the building.
My suspicions would lie along the lines of trying to come up with a hairbrained scheme of not allowing the p3's to log the time thus not having to pay efp....fat chance though.
They all do full ratings and are qualified as P2 on the aircraft. They log all the hours as P3.

So why do you need to know?

[Deskjocky]

Actuator, you are definitely one for conspiracy theories! I could not give a rats arse about P3’s efp pay and quite frankly in the big picture doing anything with it would amount to squat in any case so chill out.

My interest is a personal one and has nothing to do with what I’m currently doing at SAA. Likewise if I wanted to know the deal on what our P3’s do I would ask Colin. I was interested in the what other airlines are doing but thank you for your reply in any event.

[Q4NVS]

AFAIK the NTW 767 guys do a P3 (Cruise Pilot) Rating only with a bond in the region of R25 000.

I could have changed though...

[The Actuator]

Not interested in conspiracies at all, I just have to witness what the present crop of managers are doing to our airline to be suspicious. As I said you could ask a manager pilot for eg Colin.

Of course you could have given your reason in post 4, in any event you are welcome and you now have the gen re SAA.

[Deskjocky]

Of course you could have given your reason in post 4,

Mate, I really have nothing to justify to you and as I said I was not interested in the SAA gen.

Your response belies a sense of vulnerability- problem is you know that the “current crop of managers” as you put it, are the ones who are going to make this turn around happen- you are just a passenger here and you cant stand that because, after all, you know everything don’t you!

[The Actuator]

Oh get over yourself.
If you are a part of the managers who are going to make this happen answer two small questions from me.

1.Why do you need consultants to tell you how to do your job?

2.Can we expect the managers to forfeit their salaries while these consultants are doing what the managers ought to be doing?

[south coast]

Actuator, I didnt realise you actually knew who the person was.

In that case, I understand your reply.

Under JAA, we all have p1 ratings on the plane, although there is always a designated captain and co pilot, dont have cruise pilots on the plane I fly, so not 100% sure how that works with the likes of BA or Virgin.

[ugflyer]

I happened to exchange a few words with a KLM instructor and he told me their P3's log time as soon as they relieve either the P1 or P2. So once cruise is established and P1 feels like it is time to go spank the monkey, then P3 takes the seat and henceforth begins to log that time. Remember he is at a "required crew station" so why shouldn't he log the time? Later folks!

[Deskjocky]

If you are a part of the managers who are going to make this happen answer two small questions from me.

1.Why do you need consultants to tell you how to do your job?

2.Can we expect the managers to forfeit their salaries while these consultants are doing what the managers ought to be doing?
Dear, dear….struck a nerve?

Anyway, as it has become yet another gripe session as opposed to what the topic is actually about I cant actually believe I’m even going to indulge your dim witted ramblings…

1. Seabury has been brought in to replicate what they have done with a number of overseas airlines- most of which fall into our peer group. Most of what has been put forward to date has been tried already and they are the only ones (as they were the ones that implemented the strategies in the first place) who can tell us what worked and what didn’t. The day to day running of the airline continues- sorry that means those pesky managers you so hate get to keep their jobs for a few weeks more!

2. Love this one, really cant resist!!..... Nope no need to do that at all! We’re going to fund the whole exercise from savings we make by not allowing the P3’s to log their the full flight hours and thus save of efp payments! :} :} :D :D

[The Actuator]

Juvenile response, in much the same vein as you and your ilk apply to your jobs. The fact is the management of this airline have run out of ideas and have been forced to outsource what is basically their responsibility.

Defending SAA management is as unbelievable as the losses they have sustained, while flying unprecedented loads, all of which occurred on your watch sir.
Carry on.

[Deskjocky]

Having any coherent discussion with a dim wit like you is not only a waste of time but exceedingly boring as you really do believe you are a cut above the rest. So fly well….or watch the other two fly, what ever blows your hair back.

[4HolerPoler]

Chill please guys. Please continue your tiff by PM or email.

Back to the topic please.

4HP

[AHRS]

I understand that P3 time counts only as trainee time and is therefore essentially worthless as time log is based on P1(or P1US)/P2.

Enlighten me if wrong

[Deskjocky]

AHRS, if I understand you correctly then any time logged as P3 would not be recognised by the CAA as time toward your ATP? If you logged it under the “cruise pilot” method would you then log it as P2? or does that only apply if you have a full type rating?

[JetNut]

According to the new CAR's, 50% of second pilot time (based on the certified weight of the a/c in question) can be used towards the total requirment for an ATPL. So for example if one needed 1000 hours more to unfreeze an ATPL, he/she would need to fly 2000 hours as P3.

This is very handy, especially at SAA, where some new-joiners remain as boy(girl)-pilots for almost three years. (Which is extremely long as compared to international standards, where someone can get command in that time). This also tends to eliminate the catch22, where if a CPL does not upgrade to ATPL within five years of joining, their seniority is frozen.

One must bear in mind, the P3 position on a large jet is that of an active member of the crew. Just speak to the guys who lost an engine out of Cape Town on a 747-400 a while back.....

[SIC]

As far as I remember the total time you spend from chocks off to chocks on as a P3 can be logged towards your total in the logbook - this is mainly to keep track of legal limits like the 100 a month or 1000 a year etc.

In order to count time towards a higher licence - obviously ATP - either only the time spend in the seat or a share - normally 50 % of the total can be counted. I seem to remember SAA cadets coming over to Lanseria FLight Center a few years ago with somewhere in the region of 3200 hours+ total time - most of which was obviously P3 - and that allowed them 1500 countable towards ATP. At Cathay, Dragon Air, China Airlines , Japan Airlines etc the same goes on. 200 hour cadets are allowed to log 33% or 50% of their P3 time depending on the local regulation.

Lastly, whether you log all the P3 time you do or only a percentage, most airlines ( definately Emirates ) will not accept it when they look at your total time to satisfy their entry requirements.

[Jozinc]

hey guyz,
OACI annex 01
http://i10.servimg.com/u/f10/11/19/95/13/credit10.jpg
fly safe
:ok:

[GLOBAL AV8OR]

DJ
There is a subtle difference to 4 issues here:
1. The logging of hours (in pilots logbook);
2. The crediting of hours (towards a higher licence)
3. The calculation of absolute limits of hours (FTL's)
4. The calculation of flight pay/efp
As I recall, the SA ANR's allowed a dedicated P3 to log all the hours as P2 on an a/c that he was suitably and appropriately qualified on.
Some other authorities (FAA/JAA) issue P1 type ratings to all or most applicants (as their employer allows). Their role as P3/Cruise pilot is a company defined one. The crediting/calculation of their maximum hours are also therefore defined by the company.
In the case of EK, they clearly define that the rostered, primary crew can log 100% of the flight time as P1/P2 and the P3 logs only the time he spends on flight deck duty. They also restrict the no. of hours, whilst operating as P3, that you can count towards your "hard hours" (total experience) when you apply for the job.
As far a logic goes, this is my spin:
For a Long Range or ULR flight to operate, it will legally require the services of more than 2 pilots. The "relief" pilots have as much regulatory contribution to that flight as the primary crew. The hours they spend on that a/c (chock-to-chock) should ALL be counted towards 1, 3 & 4 above. Without them there the flight can't go.
I say should - many airlines do not. Some of them have unions you can go to and negotiate some sense into the managements perception of this, some don't have the benefit of a union or collective bargaining.
Having a P3 scheme such as SAA is a good idea for both the company and pilot, means more jobs for pilots, saves money for the airline - more flying for senior P2's or P1's (with no dedicated P3's) means higher flight pay/efp cost. Jnr P3's salary less than a bunch of senior's going into overtime to do measly P3 ops.

Keep it safe,
G.A. :cool:

[ested]

50% ??? So where does the 33% thing come in?