Caribou Replacement..

[PLE Always]

G'day,

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21542588-31477,00.html

Favoured option 10-12 C-27J's in 2010-11.

The article makes reference to the fact that there may be a follow-on order if not all the C-130H's are replaced.

As an outsider to ALG it appears to be a nice balance of C-17's, J Models and C-27's, any thoughts? How about on the possible retirement of the H Models?

It might not be long before the AP-3C is by far the longest serving aircraft in the RAAF fleet! :ok:

PLE..

[Going Boeing]

The last time that the RAAF looked at Caribou replacement options the C295 came out on top because it represented significantly better value for money than the C27 Spartan - despite its commonality with the C130J. (more hulls for the same money)

The other issue that surfaced is that both replacement options have tandem main gear which tends to cause the aircraft to bog when doing tight 180 degree turns on soft unsealed strips. The Caribous gear conficuration doesn't have this porblem.

[DutchRoll]

Well, to give you some perspective as someone who's flown the Caribou, E,H and J Herc (before proceeding to "greener" pastures! ;) ), and the CN235 with the IPTN chief test pilot when it came out here some years ago trying to sell itself as a Caribou replacement, I really just don't think there is any aeroplane at all which can truly replace the Caribou.

At least not in exactly the same role with the same capabilities. They just don't make fixed wing aircraft of that size which can do what the 'Bou does anymore. If they do get the C27J, I'm not saying it will be a bad aeroplane, but it will clearly be a compromise in payload versus short/rough/soft field capability, no matter what the manufacturer says.

As for the H. Not long of this world I'm afraid. A "few" years if they're lucky. There are all sorts of retirement dates being bandied around, most of which are hugely optimistic IMHO, and will cost enormous amounts of money to achieve. It has been a great workhorse, but the old girl has had a demanding role and has become pretty battered and bruised. It was only ever destined to be replaced by the C130J (despite the vehement protestations of certain Navs and Flight Engineers!) as the Herc is a fundamentally good design for what it's supposed to do.

I think it'll be a good transport force if it eventuates that way. The C-17 is a good aeroplane, even if it was only with the benefit of hindsight that the RAAF ended up with it. It was purchased in a real hurry because the Government finally woke up to the fact (after several years) that it couldn't keep sending troops and equipment on big deployments to the four corners of the earth, without a true long-range transport and having to rely on contracted Antonovs, a couple of rusty clapped-out 707s :p , etc, etc. I just hope they continue to fund it logistically.

[Torres]

How many times is this that the RAAF have looked for a true replacement for the Caribou?? It's been going on for decades - back to when the F-27 was being considered. I don't blame them for wanting to get rid of the R2000 round engines! (Although I'll miss that great sound!)

The only aircraft to replace the Caribou's unique performance - is another Caribou, preferably with PT6A-67's or PW100 engines!!!

I believe the RAAF DHC4's have only 15,000 to 20,000 hours on the airframes. One would think it important enough to retain their unique STOL capability, to completely refurbish and update engines to turbines, whilst also buying a mid size transport?

[the wizard of auz]

The only aircraft to replace the Caribou's unique performance - is another Caribou, preferably with PT6A-67's or PW100 engines!!!
Thats what I would have thought the sensible thing to do. often wondered why they haven't done it. would only make a grand old lady, grander.

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

got made redundent in 93 at Hawker de Havilland due to the caribou going into retirement,but once again their was nothing left to replace it's capabilities,so it remained in service up to now,and there's is still nothing around like the caribou that can get around Papua New Guinea,good luck finding a replacement

[Old 'Un]

Torres,

Have heard that line just recently...

I was fortunate enough to be at Omaka over Easter where an RAAF Caribou was displaying.

The commentators used that line ".. the only aircraft to replace a Caribou is another Caribou". FWIW there was also discussion that there is more than just a possibility that the 'Bou basic design may go back into production, but with updated (presumably turboprop) powerplants.

Having seen the 'Bou's STOL performance and heard the stories of its operational performance in some pretty tight spots, I can easily believe the commentators were right:

".. the only aircraft to replace a Caribou is another Caribou".

[BuzzBox]

The RAAF looked at re-engining the Caribou with a turboprop many, many moons ago but I believe they ran into all sorts of CofG problems with the lighter engine.

On top of that the problem isn't just the engines - the RAAF has had problems sourcing other components for many years. I dare say it's all becoming a tad expensive keeping the old girls flying. I guess it all comes down to whether or not the Caribou's full capability is actually required.

[Capt Kremin]

They did try to re-engine the Bou in the early 90's. Not the RAAF, I believe it was Dehav's.

Here is the result of the final test flight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5S_pP4_MII

Whilst the accident was not the fault of the modifications, the loss of the prototype in such a way probably took all the steam out of the project.

Don't try to take of with control locks engaged...

[Ejector]

Yes, that was a very sad day, I believe it happened due to Human error, I have been told that during the P&W conversion the control locks were moved to some obscure place. Stranger things have happened than crews not checking free movement of controls. Very unfortunate. :(

I am pretty sure that the South Africans use the Buffalo a lot in their military and the Canadians use it a lot as well, for civil SAR work as well.

[bentandtwisted]

I read somewhere that some of the capability lost if/when they replace the Caribou could be picked up by the Chinook’s.

[ScottyDoo]

Another bad day for the Caribou. Struck by an out-going artillery round.


http://gunsagogo.org/0009/0124.jpg

[the wizard of auz]

Holy Christ.......... thats both a spectacular and horrifying picture. :eek:

[Torres]

"I read somewhere that some of the capability lost if/when they replace the Caribou could be picked up by the Chinook’s."

Yes, at an estimated $20,000 + per hour.

A Chook is not a Bou replacement!

[Torres]

The Buffalo is a DHC5 with 2 x GE T64-10 engines. It is not a turbine DHC4 Caribou conversion. Different aircraft.

The PT6A-57 engine is already FAA certified in the DHC4 Caribou - but these are military aircraft and don't require civil certification.

My guess US$5 mill per airframe and Australia could retain the unique Caribou capability for another 20 years, with reliable turbines, refurbished and modern avionics etc.

Tell me again how much military aircraft you get for US$5 mill per airframe?

[noexcessivecranking]

I believe the turbine Caribou was brought out and tested in Australia. On its first flight it landed at one of its typical operational destinations - a dusty bush strip - and sucked in so much dust that both turbines packed it in almost straight away. End of assessment by RAAF, thanks for coming.

Wasn't someone in Canada building them again to the original spec's, with up-rated piston engines? Maybe I'm thinking of something else.

[InTransit]

http://www.ausairpower.net/ADA-5190-Analysis.html

Worth a read

[Arm out the window]

That crash video is hard to watch, all right. I believe it was a smallish company looking to re-engine the Caribou with turboprops, and the pilot was the videographer's son or close relative.
In the piston Caribou, the control lock lever is sensibly positioned in front of the roof-mounted throttles so they can't be advanced very far if it's in the lock position.
In this turbine version, as I recall the story going, the throttles were down on the center console in a more traditional position, and so the protection provided by the control lock failsafe was no longer there. Who knows why he didn't check the controls before takeoff, but it happened, and that's the sad result.

[Taildragger67]

The 'bou is the only fixed-wing aircraft I've seen fly backwards - was on STOL approach to the grass cross-strip at Riccy, in a decent northerly blow, about 50' up when a gust came through and pushed it about half-a-length backwards. :ok:

Any talk about A400M acquisition? Then again, that thing's been beset by so many problems, eg. Germans reducing their orders, etc.

What do the Seppos use for tactical in-theatre transport? Is that what the Osprey tilt-rotor thingy is supposed to do?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

THAT is a very sad picture 'Scotty'.

I couldn't even begin to imagine what was going on inside the aeroplane...

Any further details available? Like whose aircraft? Location? (Other than 'Somewhere in Viet..')

Regards.

[criticalmass]

Putting the 'Bou back into production is a fine idea, if...

a) the original production jigs weren't destroyed when production ceased,
b) the production drawings weren't likewise destroyed,
c) the powers that be are prepared to face the politically-incorrect truth that an existing design can actually do the job better than all the whizbang new offerings from manufacturers who have consistently failed to produce a competitive replacement design for decades, and
d) the politicians who end up making the choice (usually against the better judgement of their military advisers) find the intestinal fortitude to actually admit an existing airframe is actually the best for the role and scrape up the necessary to fund a resumption of production, and
e) the original manufacturer has somehow miraculously managed to retain enough interest in building aeroplanes for the military to be interested in resuming production.

All in all, I don't see any resumption of Caribou production...the odds are stacked against it.

But I'd love to be proved wrong.

[Taildragger67]

Re that rather disturbing photo - details on this page (http://www.c-7acaribou.com/history/acft_losses.htm).

[Tiger 77]

The only a/c more superior than a caribou is a Buffalo. Nothing could ever replace a Buffalo.

Cheers,
Tiger.

[the wizard of auz]

I was wondering how long it would be before you showed up. took you longer than i thought. :}

[Like This - Do That]

The 'bou is the only fixed-wing aircraft I've seen fly backwards - was on STOL approach to the grass cross-strip at Riccy, in a decent northerly blow, about 50' up when a gust came through and pushed it about half-a-length backwards.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I saw Steve Curtis fly Citabria WKM (probably - maybe MIF) backwards a few years ago. He then landed vertically on Camden's rwy 28.

Normal programming resumes ......

[reacher]

Quote:
"and there's is still nothing around like the caribou that can get around Papua New Guinea,good luck finding a replacement"

Heard that the Spartan can get into all but 4 strips in PNG.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"The 'bou is the only fixed-wing aircraft I've seen fly backwards "

Saw a Proctor do it at Archerfield many years ago. Took off - climbed to about 500', let the wind blow him back down the strip - and landed pretty much where he had started his TO roll from.

I seem to recal that a carton of XXXX exchanged hands afterwards.

Dr:cool:

[Flight Detent]

Heah Tiger 77,

I was at Richmond RAAF base in mid 1969, serving in 38 Squadron, and remember watching the new Buffalo go through some of it's assessment flight and ground testing.
Long time ago....I can hardly believe those Caribous airplanes are still flying, saw some of them delivered via Port Moresby the same year.

Cheers FD :uhoh:

[Torres]

reacher: "Heard that the Spartan can get into all but 4 strips in PNG."

There are over 400 airstrips in PNG. The Spartan must be a dam fine helicopter if it can land at all bar four of them!!!

Is this amongst the four it can't get into - or do you think this is a "goer"??
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/Woomera/NiceRunway.jpg

Of course, the RAAF had a go at a few of them, with the occasional disaterous result!

From the C47/DC3 they landed at "Goroka" in the 1950's - 20 miles short of the destination and a thousand meters too short, to the DHC4 which landed at Eliptimin - intended destination Telefomin (came out under a Chook); the fine effort at Tufi with a DHC4 (pilot now a senior CASA manager); the prang at Garaina and a few others I've since forgotten about.

But the Caribou did a dam fine job in PNG. The only aircraft to replace it would be another Caribou.

[Swingwing]

I once heard a story about a 38SQN Caribou climbing out of Richmond to the south west, into the teeth of a huge westerly gale - and consequently making good a ridiculously low groundspeed.

Apparently it was quite humiliating being overtaken below by the Friday afternoon traffic heading up the Great Western Highway for the Blue Mountains .....:}

Urban Myth? Dunno. Good yarn though....

SW

[reacher]

Torres: Great photo! Thought about entering it into the caption comp?

Perhaps the guy who told me meant that the Spartan was able to get into to all but 4 strips that the 'Bou was capable of. It was a few years ago and many beers down. :\

Thread creep: The show it put on at Avalon was great. Barrel role looked strange for a transport to be doing but what really impressed me (Not all that hard) was the wing-over into low speed, dirty pass. That must have been a busy time in the cockpit.

[Torres]

Swingwing. We operated a Pilatus PC6BH2 Porter in PNG. Had a call from a plantation asking could we send in their supplied and lift out a load of coffee.

"No sweat. I'll send the Porter."

"Can't Mate. I need the supplied today - not next bloody week!"

:} :}

[forget]

A very sensible replacement is already mentioned in an Oz doc.

http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-Caribou-Pt.1.pdf

Antonov AN-74. :ok:

[Wiley]

I was sitting on the threshold for 10 at Richmond in... not sure of the year, probably '69 or '70 waiting for Al Field to complete his practice solo for the air show the next day. There was about a 40 knot wind blowing, and he put the 'bou down on the piano keys.. and stopped. I swear the main wheels hardly turned. Great roar from the reversers and the aircraft was at a full stop, still on the white stripes.

The wind wasn't as strong on the day of the airshow, so he couldn't repeat it for the adorimng masses.

I also saw Bob May(?) do the wheels up on 28 at Richmond (in late 68?) with two Malaysian students on board. He put the ramp down and landed on the ramp rim. Aircraft came to a stop very neatly, wing down, with absolutely minimal damage - and the first stud in his orange flying suit was out the back a nanosecond later at the speed of a popping champage cork, followed very closely by the next one.

[Minimbah]

If it isn’t broke, then don’t fix it! Same for the F-111.Just build new ones with upgraded everything. Sometimes "they" get it right and don't realise it. Of course, that doesn't sell new ones.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Gotta agree with Torres...there are 100s of strips in PNG that were Bou free zones.

As to a replacement...why is this such an insurmountable problem?

Nothing else will come close to doing what a Bou will do except a Buffalo...I would bet there are 10 airforces around the world who would kill for the (reconstituted) capability...some company has bought the rights to the Beaver and Twin Otter with the intention of putting them back in production because nothing designed/built since comes close. Why couldn't Australian industry, GAF or whatever it is called now, buy the rights to build the Buffalo and and sell them on the world market too?

If the Govt had the balls they could reconstitute an industry in Australia, create LOTS of jobs and make a profit. You'd sell 100s in places like Africa, Afghanistan etc etc etc.

Instead they'll end up with something that costs more and doesn't do the job close to as well as the Caribou.:ugh:

You'd think it was brain surgury.:ugh:

[wessex19]

rather disturbing footage here off youtube of a catastrophic ending to a turbine converted caribou

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWfi7fBvfEk

[Going Boeing]

http://www.asd-network.com/data_news/ID20111_600.jpg

Embraer Launches KC-390 Military Transport Jet Program

Company signs a partnership for the new program with the Brazilian Air Force

(Sao Jose dos Campos, April 14, 2009) -- In a ceremony held, today, during the seventh edition of the Latin America Aero and Defence (LAAD) trade fair, which takes place from April 14 to 17, at Riocentro, in the city of Rio de Janeiro, Embraer signed a contract with the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) for the KC-390 military transport aircraft program. The event was attended by the Minister of Defense, Nelson Jobim, the Head of the Navy, Admiral Julio Soares de Moura Neto, the Brazilian Aeronautics Commander, General Juniti Saito, and
Embraer President & CEO Frederico Fleury Curado.

"The launch of the KC-390 program is a new landmark in the historical strategic partnership between the Brazilian Air Force and Embraer," said Frederico Fleury Curado, Embraer President & CEO. "We are convinced that the development of the KC-390 will result in an effective cargo and tanker aircraft for the FAB and shall also become another successful export platform for both Embraer and Brazil."

The FAB established the requirements for this aircraft, just as has occurred with other successful products manufactured by Embraer, like the Bandeirante, the Tucano, the aerial surveillance and remote sensoring versions of the ERJ 145, which are used in the Amazon Surveillance System (Sistema de Vigilancia da Amazonia - SIVAM), and the Super Tucano.

The new jet will meet the needs of the FAB, in full compliance with the new National Defense Strategy. The participation of other countries in this program will be evaluated, in conjunction with the FAB, and the aircraft is expected to enter service in 2015. The KC-390 Program will contribute, in the short term, to maintaining highly qualified jobs, and, longer-term, it has the potential for generating significant export volumes with important aggregate value.

The existence of a study regarding this military transport aircraft was presented two years ago, at LAAD 2007. The jet will have a cargo bay equipped with an aft ramp, to transport a wide variety of types of cargo, including armored vehicles, and will be outfitted with the most modern systems for handling and launching cargos.

The new jet can be refueled in flight and can be used for in-flight or on-ground refueling of other aircraft. The cargo bay will allow configurations for Medical Evacuation (MEDEVAC) missions. The technical advances of the KC-390 include fly-by-wire technology, which lessens pilot work load by optimizing mission results and increasing safety and the capability for operating on short and rustic runways.

The FAB already operates other transport aircraft manufactured by Embraer, like the EMB 120 Brasilia, the ERJ 145, and the Legacy 600. Besides these, the fleet of military aircraft designed and manufactured in Brazil, like the Tucano, the Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) airplanes operated within the SIVAM, and the Super Tucano, as well as the AMX, which was developed in a partnership with Italian companies. In June 2008, Embraer signed a contract for the sale of two EMBRAER 190 jets to the FAB, which will be configured especially for carrying authorities.

Source : Embraer

[Old Fella]

Cant imagine the KC390 going into some of the places the old "Bou has been, and besides, the KC390 is designed to have a payload of 19000 Kgs, about the same as a C130 and about 6000Kgs more than the MAUW of the Caribou. Even if the Caribou production was revived it might have to be powered by a turbo-prop like the Buffalo. Don't think there would be too many R2000's around.

Off thread a little, in the early 1960's Wednesday afternoon sporting activity for BFTS instructors was sometimes several Winjeels overhead the field in echelon, flying into a good southerly, competing with each other to see who could go the greatest distance backwards.

[Octane]

Bristol Freighter??

[David Eyre]

The Embraer KC-390 is intended to be a replacement for the C-130 Hercules, so it would be too big as a Caribou replacement, and would not have the same STOL capability.

Viking Air in Canada has acquired the type certificates from DHC for the Buffalo, and is proposing a modernised DHC-5 Buffalo, called the DHC-5NG. This would be much more aligned with the Caribou's STOL capability, using PW150 turboprop engines and modernised avionics.

Some articles here:
Viking Air - 1/22/2009 - Buffalo Blitz (http://www.vikingair.com/content.aspx?id=1882)

Next Generation Buffalo - DHC-5NG - Viking Air - DHC-5 Buffalo - CC-115 Buffalo - Fixed-Wing Search and Rescue - FWSAR - CASR Documents - Canadian American Strategic Review - Aircraft Development - Canadian Aircraft - Aerospace Industry - Alenia C-27 (http://www.casr.ca/doc-news-viking-buffalo-specs.htm)

Viking Eyes Restarting Buffalo Line | AVIATION WEEK (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/BUFFALO032709.xml)

Viking Buffalo search and rescue offer may be trumped by Alenia (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/01/12/320851/viking-buffalo-search-and-rescue-offer-may-be-trumped-by.html)

Regards,
David

[grip-pipe]

All the good STOL machines are long gone, DHC4, DHC5, DHC6 and BN2 along with the world they were designed for, simple, no need for this type of STOL aviating any more, except now and then here and there, hardly a basis for the colossal investment required into designing, building and selling a new STOL type. A big rotary wing will have to do the job, they still make them! Secondary issue - lot harder to train a good piston engine driver than a turbine, their still more tricky and demand a lot more understanding of reciprocation, even the RAAF trains its drivers for turbine ops not pistons these days. A good round motor driver is a rare breed indeed.

[Old Fella]

Octane, thanks for the humour. Bristol Freighter compared to the Caribou is like putting up a Holden Commodore against a Nissan GTR.

[Trojan1981]

There are dozens of Army units that would love to have access to this capability. It is rarely made available now so I doubt STOL is a future priority for the RAAF. The Bou can operate in hot and high conditions out of short strips with a given payload for much longer distances than any existing R/W A/C.
I have never seen a buffalo but I imagine they are more capable than a bou and a NG version would be better again. Policy seems to be focussed on inter-operability with the US in coalition rather than focused on Australias interests in our immediate area, where stol is an asset.

[Going Boeing]

(November 24, 2009) -- A ceremony at Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Base Townsville on Friday marked the handover of three King Air 350 aircraft from Army to Air Force. The aircraft, formerly operating under Army Aviation's No. 173 Air Surveillance Squadron, will now be flown by RAAF's No. 38 Squadron.

Chief of Air Force, Air Marshal Mark Binskin, said the King Air will act as an interim replacement for the ageing DHC-4 Caribou, which will be retired this year.

"The three King Air which arrived at Townsville last week will be joined by another five brand new King Air in the first half of next year," Air Marshal Binskin said.

Leased through Hawker Pacific, the King Air is equipped with turboprop engines, modern avionics and a glass cockpit.

"The King Air is a far more advanced aircraft than the 1950s-era Caribou, being able to cruise at more than three times the altitude, twice the speed and twice the range," Air Marshal Binskin said.

"It is ideally suited for moving people quickly across northern Australia and throughout the region.

"This is especially important when we are called on to provide assistance to the civil community within Australia and on disaster relief efforts in our neighbourhood.

"The new fleet of King Air can provide a degree of efficiency and reliability which we have struggled to achieve with our fleet of ageing Caribou.

"At the same time, the 38 Squadron King Air pilots and technicians will also gain useful experience working on a modern aircraft type, allowing them to more efficiently transfer to other parts of the RAAF fleet."

The King Air will be an interim until the arrival of a new Light Tactical Fixed-Wing transport aircraft, to be selected under Project AIR 8000 Phase Two.

Air Marshal Binskin also paid his respects to the King Air's service with the Army. "This transfer effectively marks the end of more than 40 years of fixed-wing aircraft operations, with Army now operating an all rotary-wing fleet," he said.

"Our partnership will continue through the withdrawal of the Caribou, with its roles to be efficiently distributed amongst Air Force's fleet of King Air and Hercules, as well as Army Aviation's fleet of Black Hawks, Chinooks and MRH90s."

Source : MoD Australia

[Like This - Do That]

Air Marshal Binskin also paid his respects to the King Air's service with the Army. "This transfer effectively marks the end of more than 40 years of fixed-wing aircraft operations, with Army now operating an all rotary-wing fleet," he said.

... with a friggin big grin on his face. :hmm:

I am still convinced there is a need for a cheap'n'cheerful FW system for Army. And I'm right, no arguments will be entered into :=

[rjtjrt]

""It is ideally suited for moving people quickly across northern Australia and throughout the region.
"This is especially important when we are called on to provide assistance to the civil community within Australia and on disaster relief efforts in our neighbourhood."
Quote from AM Binskin.

What absolute nonesense. I would be surprised if he could hold a straight face as he issued this tripe. An aircraft with no apparent purpose or real role (other that to provide hours for the crew and techs and give the Army a jab) in a time when the services complain about being unable to staff all units.

A complete waste of scarce resources.

[Old Fella]

He's ex-Navy mate!

[Trojan1981]

I am still convinced there is a need for a cheap'n'cheerful FW system for Army. And I'm right, no arguments will be entered into



How 'bout the new Nomad?:}

(Though I do agree with you)

[Keg]

He's ex-Navy mate!

He was wearing blue a long time before he was wearing white. Former Air Training Corps cadet. 3FLT NSWAIRTC. :ok:

[Obie]

So, who was it flying the Caribou that rocketed down main beach Noosa yesterday at about 50ft, went past the Surf Lifesaving Club at probably less than 50ft, did a steep turn to port and disappeared over the national park at tree top height?! Fantastic!! Even my wife was impressed! :ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Going Boeing]

A4-140 and A4-152 have left Townsville on their final flights to the War Memorial and RAAF Museum Point Cook, respectively.

[compressor stall]

You can never build another Caribou or [insert classic old aircraft that nothing new matches today] nowadays and get it certified as the safety standards demanded today in the structural design (eg 9g / 16g seat fittings) can't be achieved.

If it was possible, it would be done.

[Gundog01]

Obie,

A4-210 left Townsville for it's final resting place at Oakey on Wednesday. I can asure you it was at exactly 250ft on the RADALT when it flew past Fraser Island, Rainbow beach, Noosa and Coolum.

Was a good flight though.

[Taildragger67]

So, who was it flying the Caribou that rocketed down main beach Noosa yesterday

"Caribou" and "rocketed" in the same sentence - now that has to be a first! :}

Hope you boys (and girls?!) are having fun with the old girls in the final days and sending them out in style. :ok:

[Gundog01]

Hope you boys (and girls?!) are having fun with the old girls in the final days and sending them out in style.

Taildragger,

Very hard not to

[FlexibleResponse]

King Air an interim Caribou replacement?

I'd like to see a King Air airdrop a jeep into a DZ! Or even see a King Air drop 28 armed paratroopers into battle!

[tiger19]

These guys would have to be the unluckiest ever caribou crew fatally injured when they were hit by US Army Artillary friendly fire while flying low level with the shell ripping off the tail. Camera man right place right time for this unbelievable pic 3rd August 1967

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/24/Caribou_Ha_Thahn.jpg

[Ned Parsnip]

Already posted in this thread way back in 2007 here (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/271674-caribou-replacement.html#post3228903)

Maybe follow the thread before jumping in next time tiger19 :=

[tiger19]

apologies Ned, will try and spend all my spare time trolling through pprune threads like you:eek:

[Critical Reynolds No]

And do we really need to see that picture again?

[Trojan1981]

I'd like to see a King Air airdrop a jeep into a DZ!

I'd like to see a Caribou do that! The LR110 doesn't fit into a 'bou, hence the Sqn Suzukis. Bou was good for dropping A22 CDS, compacts compised of Ammo boxes, drums of water/fuel/whatever, Heli/Maxi boxes the od DZ bike and LAPES, but not Vehicles.

[FlexibleResponse]

Trojan, Well it use to do just that!

If you visit 38 Sqn and note a mounted buckled jeep steering wheel on the wall that was presented by Humpydoo, then you will have discovered fossilized evidence of an earlier era of very successful (and sometimes not so) Caribou Operations!

[ernestkgann]

I think the original Landies fit in the back as well as that cut down "cruiser the sqn used to have.

[Trojan1981]

Trojan, Well it use to do just that!

Yeah, they used to,fair enough, but the current LR110 doesn't fit. So not for the last 20 odd years I suppose. I have never seen it.

No doubt a WWII era Jeep would fit. Did the ROPS have to be taken off the old LRs to get them in? What about width?

[Disco Stu]

Both Short and Long wheelbase Landrovers were dropped from the 'Bou. Soft top removed and windscreen folded down.

The buckled steering wheel did come from a "Jeep" that was a training aid at AMTDU. It got all bent because a 38 Sqdn Loadmaster forgot about hooking up and checking the static lines to the parachute bags.

I'll see if I can find my 'before' and 'after' photo's.

Don't worry too much about the Chief of the Air Force's comments re the B200, he's an ex Knucklehead and only knows about jelly beans.

Disco Stu
ex AMTDU

[Trojan1981]

Both Short and Long wheelbase Landrovers were dropped from the 'Bou.

Are you refering to the LR model before the 110? The windscreen/door tops cannot be removed on the current model, only the ROPS can be unbolted. The LRPV (no top) weighs to much to go in a 'bou.
So when did they stop doing that? I never did it with 38, 176 or AMTDU. We were not trained to do it from a bou, nor saw it done. In fact we never even airlanded them. Granted, I only joined a little over ten years ago.

Apart from the issue of wether or not the vehicle will fit in the aircraft, the RAAF airdrop rigging manuals specify that the LR must be rigged on a type 5 platform, with an EFTC, which won't fit in a 'bou. It also has to sit on several stacks of honeycomb cardboard and have the parachute stowage board/parachutes and parachute release on top. All of this makes it too high to fit.

Now if you were going to LAPES a LR from a bou, that might be possible with a wooden CEP. Providing of course the vehicle fits.:ok:

[Gundog01]

Trojan,

Would the LR be overweight for a Lapes??

I wouldn't want to be flying with the type of CoG change you would expect with a LR coming out the back. it would have to be well over 2500lbs? Bad enough with someone taking a piss down the back :ok:.

[Trojan1981]

Gundog,

I have the LAPES weight limit at 4000lb in my old quick reference, but that may be outdated now.

You're right, even at that weight limit the LR would be over weight (approx 4800lb).

I'd love to see some old pics of vehicles going out the back of 'bous if anybody has them.

[YoDawg]

Here's some footage of lapes and the other usual Caribou airshow tricks.

C7YUkQlPLDk

[YoDawg]

Although an uninformed opinion, I would've thought the V-22 would make a good replacement for the Caribou. With the dollar the way it is, they should buy some while the buying's good.

[Obie]

So, wot's the difference between a "knucklehead" and a "non knucklehead"? Care to enlighten us, Stu? :ok::ok::=:=

[HamoAus]

Well the last flight has come and gone and the aircraft I started my career on (as a techo) is gone. I loved her and now she is gone.

Cheers

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Sad day, loved them round engines and short field displays!