Channel 7- "Air Crash Investigatons"

[Capt Chambo]

Channel 7 are showing the United Airlines (UA 232) Sioux City crash tonight. Well worth watching.

[The PM]

Agreed. One of the survivors of this event was (maybe still does?) working as a flight nurse with the RFDS at Broken Hill when i last spoke to her a few years ago.

[J D]

Great example of CRM working like it should...got to meet Capt Al Haynes at one of our squadron safety meetings....great presentation!!

[Critical Reynolds No]

Has this one been on before or was it an older doco like Black Box?

[jbr76]

Seeing as we're on the topic of UAL Flight 232 :-
Anybody refresh their minds to the movie "Rescue of Flight 232 Heavy" starring Charlton Heston?
Some of that movie has actual real life video footage of the aircraft breaking up over the cornfields .. The movie was slightly corny (no pun intended) but the dramatic video footage made up for it .. I thought it was a flick well worth watching ..

[Buster Hyman]

This event has been done before, but I believe this is an entirely new show. Fancy graphics & other stuff is about all they can add to a sterling effort by the crew!:ok:

[DeltaSix]

JBR76 - Yes I did watch that movie. There were real footage included.
How anyone survived that crash is incredible. The aircraft flipped on the runway.

[mention1]

Yes it was a good movie - with Richard Thomas as the fire chief. Before the world of computer graphics producers used real aircraft. One of the best in my mind was Airport '75 featuring a B747 flying around mountains and in valleys - great stuff!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

There was one line in the movie after the pilots are finally rescued, the pilots were reassured in the hospital "Everyone tried the same situation in the sim. No one got within twenty miles of the airfield." About says it all.:ok:

[*Lancer*]

It's a shame the ATC recording wasn't included... it's very, very interesting!

[J430]

Lancer do you have a link to it? Would be interesting....UA232 cleared to land.....where ever you can!

How they did what they did is simply super human.

I wish all the melodramatics were scrapped and the last 3 minutes about the failure were explained more ....say the last 30 minutes of the show. Maybe thats the engineer in me speaking, but how many times do you need the TV hype, once would have done it.

Super Human tech crew. Cant help but feel for the F/A's and the kids on the floor idea, seems crazy now, they would have been better in their parents arms.:(

J

[Wanderin_dave]

For anyone wanting more detail without the sensationalising check out the book series 'Air Disaster' by Macarthur Job. UA232 is covered in Vol 1.
Excellent books.
Amazing effort by the crew, wouldn't believe it if it weren't true!

[Ultralights]

There was one line in the movie after the pilots are finally rescued, the pilots were reassured in the hospital "Everyone tried the same situation in the sim. No one got within twenty miles of the airfield." About says it all.

There is a BIG difference to flying a situation in a simulator, and actually having to fly to save your, and the passengers lives!

though with the apparent level of training and automation in todays environment, i wonder how a repeated situation might turn out.

still, a brilliant effort by the crew..:D

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Ultralights, how true! The pilot was fixating on how many people had died, which isn't good. The other crews pointed out how many had been saved and how monumental a task the crew had done. No one got within cooee of how far the crew had got.

[CoolCat]

I've been watching this channel 7's air crash investigation thing for a while and I think it's really stale compared to the original discovery channel 'mayday' which air crash is a complete copy off.
I have the three seasons of mayday of a total four seasons.
7 hasn't aired the fourth season though they showed season 3 last year.
It's a shame they're showing this cheaper imitation over the fourth season of mayday. haven't seen that one yet. There's going to be a fifth season of mayday coming out soon.

[Critical Reynolds No]

Actually CC they have shown 2 episodes from Series 4, the Air France run off and the BA 747 engines shut down due volcanic ash. What I don't like is how they show last nights as ACI when it is actually called "Seconds from Disaster.". Same company makes both programs but still.....

[J430]

I hate how they replay and recap everything after every ad break........surely most folk have a memory span more than 3 minutes:rolleyes:

J:ok:

[*Lancer*]

J430, unfortunately I downloaded it years ago - and I have no idea where from!

Here's the transcript though:


3:23 p.m. CDT -- Minneapolis controllers to Sioux City controllers: Sioux City, got an emergency for you.

Sioux City: All right.

Minneapolis: I've got a United aircraft coming in, lost No. 2 engine, having a hard time controlling the aircraft right now. He's out of 29,000 right now and descending to Sioux City. Right now he's east of your VOR but he wants the equipment standing by right now. .... He's east 40 miles ....

Sioux City: Radar contact.

3:25 p.m. -- Minneapolis: Did you say you had a radar on United Airlines 232?

Sioux City: Affirmative radar.

Minneapolis: He's having a hard time controlling the plane right now and trying to slow down and get steady on a heading. As soon as I get comfortable, I'll ship him over to you and he'll be in your control.

Sioux City: All right.

3:26 p.m. -- UAL 232: Sioux City approach, United Airlines 232 Heavy (wide body), with you out of 26 (26,000 feet altitude). Heading right now is 290 and we've got about a 500-foot rate of descent. .... OK, so you know we have almost no control ability, very little elevator and almost no aileron. We are controlling the turns by power. ... We can only turn right, but we can't turn left.

Sioux City: United 232 Heavy, understand, sir, you can only make right turns.

3:27 p.m. -- Sioux City: United 232, ... your present track puts you about 8 miles north of the airport, sir, and the only way we can get you around to (runway) 31 is a slight left turn with differential power or, if you can, jockey it over.

UAL 232: OK, we're in a right turn now. That's about the only way we can go. We'll be able to make very slight left turns on final, but right now just going to make right turns to whatever heading you want.

3:29 p.m. -- Sioux City: United 232 Heavy, say souls on board and fuel remaining.

3:32 p.m. -- UAL 232: We have no hydraulic fluid, which means we have no elevator control, almost none, and very little aileron control. I have serious doubts about making the airport. Have you got some place near there that we might be able to ditch? Unless we get control of this airplane, we're going to put it down wherever it happens to be.

Sioux City: United 232, roger. Stand by.

3:36 p.m. -- Sioux City: And United 232 Heavy, did you get the souls on board count.

UAL 232: Stand by, tell you, right now we don't even have time to let go and call the gal ....

Sioux City: Roger.

UAL 232: Two hundred ninety-two souls on board United 232.

Sioux City: Roger, thank you.

3:43 p.m. -- UAL 232: United 232, we're going to have to continue one more right turn. We've got the elevators pretty much under control within 300 or 400 feet, but we still can't do much with the steering.

Sioux City: United 232 Heavy, roger, understand you do have the elevators possibly under control. Will you be able to hold the altitude?

UAL 232: Negative. We don't have it. We are better, that's all.

Sioux City: Roger.

3:46 p.m. -- UAL 232: OK, United 232, we're starting a left turn back to the airport. Since we have no hydraulics, braking is really going to be a problem. Ah, we suggest the equipment be toward the far end of the runway and I think under the circumstances, regardless of the condition of the airplane, when we stop, we're going to evacuate. So you might notify the ground crew equipment that we're going to do that.

Sioux City: United 232 Heavy, wilco sir, and if you can continue that left turn to a 220 heading, sir, that will take you right to the airport.

3:51 p.m. -- Sioux City: United 232 Heavy, you are going to have to widen out just slightly to your left, sir, to make the turn to final and also to take you away from the city.

UAL 232: Whatever you do, keep us away from the city.

3:53 p.m. -- Sioux City: United 232 Heavy, been advised there's a four-lane highway up in that area, sir, if you can pick that up.

UAL 232: OK, we'll see what we can do here. We've already put the gear down, and we're going to have to put it down on something solid if we can.

3:54 p.m. -- UAL 232: We've got about three or four minutes to go, it looks like.

Sioux City: United 232 Heavy, Roger. Can you pick up a road or something up there?

UAL 232: We're trying ....

3:55 p.m. -- Sioux City: United 232 Heavy, the airport is, oh, about 18 miles southeast of your position, about 220 on the heading. But we're going to need you southbound away from the city first, it you can hold a 180 heading.

UAL 232: We're trying to get to it right now .... OK, we're 180 degrees heading, now what do you want?

3:56 p.m. -- Sioux City: ... That heading will put you, oh, currently 15 miles northeast of the airport. If you can hold that, it will put you on about three-mile final.

UAL 232: OK, we're giving it heck.

3:57 p.m. -- Sioux City: United 232 Heavy, the airport's currently 12 o'clock and 13 miles.

UAL: OK, we're looking for it.

Sioux City: Ah, United 232 Heavy, if you cannot make the airport, sir, there is an interstate that runs north to south to the east side of the airport. It's a four-lane interstate.

3:58 p.m. -- UAL: We're just passing it right now. We're going to try for the airport.

Sioux City: United 232 Heavy, roger, and advise when you get the airport in sight.

UAL 232: Have runway in sight. We'll be with you very shortly. Thanks a lot for your help.

Sioux City: United 232 Heavy, the wind is currently 360 at one one (11 knots) .... You're cleared to land on any runway.

UAL 232: (Laughter) You want to be particular and make it a runway, huh?

Sioux City: ... There is a runway that's closed, sir, that could probably work, too. It runs northeast to southwest.

UAL: We're pretty much lined up on this one, or we think we will be.

3:59 p.m. -- Sioux City: United 232 Heavy, roger sir. That closed runway will work, sir. We're getting the equipment off the runway and they'll line up for that one.

UAL 232: How long is it?

Sioux City: 6,600 feet, and the equipment is coming off. (Thirteen seconds elapse.) At the end of the runway, it's just a wide open field, so, sir, the length won't be a problem.

UAL 232: OK. (Twelve seconds elapse, then a ground proximity warning horn sounds.) Pull up, pull up. (unintelligible).

[puff]

Audio of the last few seconds is available here just as they started to lose it.


http://www.airdisaster.com/cvr/cvrwav.shtml

UA232 is down at the 2nd from the bottom

[Buster Hyman]

UAL 232: Whatever you do, keep us away from the city.
Says a lot about the man doesn't it? :D

[puff]

Buster i've read just about everything available about this accident and what you said is too true. Sadly these days when an a/c is involved in a crash most of the time the crew have somewhere along the lines have done something wrong. This is one of those situations when the crew did everything right and did so in amazing circumstances. All the accolades these guys got were so rightly deserved.

If you read the transcripts Capt Haynes knew the a/c had very little chance of getting onto the ground in once piece, and briefed the Chief FA accordingly...IMHO doing some at least gave her an appreciation of what to expect. They experimented, he used another available crew member, briefly the passengers fairly honestly and always kept himself abreast of where the a/c was incase he had to put it down to try and minimise ground casulties. I've been told a lot of airlines study this accident as a CRM exercise. This bloke was a Captain in the true sense of the word.

[Chimbu chuckles]

J430 there is simply no way a parent can keep a child in their arms in an aircraft crash....not even in a car crash. The deceleration forces, even in a 'controlled' crash landing, are too great and the child is ripped from their grasp near instantly.

[criticalmass]

We should also give the good old Diesel 10 airframe a bit of credit for being amenable to power-control, although the Herculean efforts of Captain Haynes and Denny Fitch are meritorious beyond measure.

I understand McDonnell-Douglas actually modified an MD-11 for flight as a purely power-controlled aeroplane and it was successfully flown.

As for the quality of the TV programs, the terms "quality" and television program" are usually contradictory and hence mutually exclusive, but I agree that the MacArthur Job books are superb.

[J430]

CC

I agree. I race cars, I understand about harnesses and restraints, but surely one option has a better chance than the other, for both parent and child. Some restraint has to be better than none.

I feel for the poor F/A on that day.:sad:

J

[DeltaSix]

This is almost the same scenario ( lost all hydraulics ) as that DHL that was damaged due to a rocket being fired at it or the PAL 747 that was damaged by a terrorist on board blowing himself up and many others.

Later on, they successfully developed and tested a computer program to control and land an aircraft that has a simulated hydraulics failure solely my means of computing thrust required from the engines to control roll, pitch and power, but had to scrap it. Reason being, the probability of this happening in a modern aircraft is very small and it did not justify the weight and expense as a result.

However, I'd like to see if those who decided on that would change their standpoint if it was their family on board a crippled jet.

[Seabreeze]

I have 2 tech questions for the experts.

1. With no hydraulics, the gear was still extended for landing. How does that work on this aircraft type?

2. How was the imperfection in the compressor housing caused during manufacturing and what were the NTSB's recommendations to prevent re-ooccurence?

Someone will know......................... c/mon

[Capt Claret]

Seabreeze,

I didn't see the show and haven't flown the DC9+1 but on the B717, which is described by some as a DC9 on steroids, the gear will free fall when the up locks are mechanically released during the alternate gear extension procedure. Same for DH8, BAe146 and numerous other types.

[*Lancer*]

Most (if not all) types with hydraulically actuated gear can 'free-fall' when the hydraulic pressure and uplocks are released, but some older aircraft have a manual method to 'wind' the gear down!

Lancer