VP-B, VP-C, P4 & N-reg Charters

[LB1985]

With the number of VP-B, VP-C, P4- and N registered aircraft flying in Europe, I am curious whether these are all private operations (i.e. flown solely for the owner, not for revenue), or whether it is possible (and legal) to charter such aircraft in the UK/within Europe. Could an operator with a British AOC have, say, Bermudan-registered aircraft on its AOC and charter them out? Does it make any sort of difference if there is a broker involved? :confused:

[LGW Vulture]

Not really legal unless agreed that no other UK AOC operator can complete the flight with an EU reg'd aircraft. You could wait for a long time until no other aircraft is available and hence no other UK operator can object.
Strictly speaking, those registrations are private ops only in the UK.

[LB1985]

Thanks for that, LGW Vulture. So in short, as a last resort, it's OK?

[Fossy]

To the best of my knowledge all Bermuda and Cayman Island Bizjets are only private registered and therefore it's illegal to charter such an aircraft, doesn't matter if there is any other aircraft available or not. N aircraft should be allowed to fly commercially within the EU if it's chartered by US citizen.

[themoonsaballoon]

I know of one Bermudan registered Aircraft flying on a Bermudan AOC-the first one of its kind, they come over in the summer with their principle and hang around to sell the return leg. I believe the Bermudan AOC and cabotage rules are a bit of a grey area,I am sure someone out there may know the answer! I believe it may be possible to lease such an aircraft onto an A.O.C providing it was accepted by the authority that the Aircraft met the subpart K,L requirements but this arrangement would be for 6 months with a six month extension possible.
N reg Bizjets have been stalking europe picking up grey charters for years IMO!
TMAB

[FLEXJET]

I have seen 2 VVIP Boeing as special "charter", both carrying head of states (so rules might be different here).

First was VP-B, flying from Paris-Orly to Africa.
Second was N, flying from Gabon to Paris.

[Monkey Boy]

I understand that there is an "N" reg Hawker in the London area that specialises in "short term leases". Very handy at getting around the crew duty issues that the AOC boys have to put up with :mad: Not very sporting IMHO, and I'm not too sure how legal it is either with regards to insurance etc.

[merlinxx]

If you see or hear of this ctc the CAA @ LGW sharpish, also pass info to the BBGA www.bbga.aero for the UK & & EBAA www.ebaa.org for the rest of EUR.

They'll both take the case to the highest level, this has been a prob for very many years, the brokers have to answer for this as they are the folks doing the chartering.

[Cathar]

I know of one Bermudan registered Aircraft flying on a Bermudan AOC-the first one of its kind
If I recall correctly there was a Bermudan AOC holder with an aircraft based in the UK in the mid 1990. The operator eventually had to obtain a UK AOC as its principal place of business was in the UK. I understand that Bermudan registered aircraft are not considered to be foreign registered aircraft so they do not need permission from the Department for Transport to conduct commercial operations in the UK.
N aircraft should be allowed to fly commercially within the EU if it's chartered by US citizen.
I think that the important point under UK law is not the nationality of the charterer but the origin and destination of the flights. A US operator is far more likely to get permission from DfT to fly a French national between London and the New York than to fly an American on purely internal flight in the UK.

[His dudeness]

What about a VP-C reg aircraft (private) REGURLARLY chartered by a member of the ebaa for flights sold by the member, which is a AOC holder. One crew way over 65...

Any chance this could be legal ?

[Cathar]

His dudeness

For your description the flight sound like public transport. If so I think that it is very unlikely that the arrangements can be legal.

Article 6 of the Air Navigation (Overseas Territories) Order 2001 provides that "an aircraft registered in the [the Cayman Islands] shall not fly on any flight for the purpose of public transport, otherwise than under and in accordance with the terms of an air operator's certificate granted to the operator of the aircraft under paragraph (2) [of this Order]". The Director of Civil Avaition in the Cayman Islands could issue an exemption to this requirement to allow the aircraft to be used by foreign AOC holders but I understand that it is his policy not to do so.

The Order also prohibits anyone over 65 from acting as pilot in command or co-pilot of any aeroplane on a flight for the purpose of public transport.

[the bald eagle]

EBACE 2007 in GVA 22-24 May

One of the exhibitors just so happens to be the Cayman CAA...I plan to visit their stand and see what they have to say on this issue

As Merlinxx stated earlier to report any misdealing/usage to the various bodies in power and of course the charter/broker should be responsible for their actions...unfortunately merlin 99.9% of them would'nt know what you're banging on about and the .1% thats left could'nt give a f**k as long as they make their crust!!