Why wear gloves?

[Flying Wild]

I've got a question for you military aircrew - Why do you wear flying gloves?
It just occured to me that when I was able to visit the flight deck on civvy flights, I never saw the pilots wearing flying gloves, so why do military pilots wear them?

[Gnd]

Fire protection (and it keeps our nice smooth hands pretty):)

[BEagle]

Because if you poke your finger into an ACC to check whether it's cooked or not, it hurts unless you're wearing your gloves!

[Whirlygig]

...and if one doesn't have a nice air-conditioned cockpit, one might get sweaty little paws!

Cheers

Whirls

[Flying Wild]

The reason I ask is that I'm just about to get into flying, albeit civilan light aircraft with a view to ATPL in the end.
I've not noticed many, if any, civilians pilots wearing flying gloves, so wondered if there was a particular reason.
I guess in the civilian world, personal preference comes into play.

[Gnd]

and we dont pay for them and there shiny so, it's a must for us:p

[Pontius Navigator]

Now for gawd sake don't ask about colour.

[A2QFI]

1. They keep your hands warm
2. They keep your hands clean
3. They provide a degree of fireprotection
4. They are free
5. Some people think they are smart

[Gnd]

Sam, What about that AAC, which colour then????:\

(have we got onto the silk inners yet??)

[ProfessionalStudent]

wg100

It's a fire retardence thing. Most of us military folk fly in clothing designed to slow/lessen the impact of a flash fire, which is a bit more likely for us in an incident. If an airliner crashes, however, there is a higher chance of complete destruction (as there are no accelerated departure means), so a flash fire would be the least of your worries.

Having learnt the civvy way myself, there is little or no heed paid to the risks of flash fires when it comes down to flying attire. The risk is entirely yours. Whilst I'm not saying you should wear a flyng suit every time you strap on your C152 (you would be right royally sneered at), gloves may just give you that extra few seconds of manual dexterity to open the escape hatch should you find yourself in a field engulfed in flames. It's a balance for you between comfort and protection, especially in the summer. A good compromise would be a thin, cotton, long-sleeved roll neck (a bit like ours, but maybe a bit less olive drab), over the polyester, short-sleeved M&S shirt.

[Union Jack]

6. All the reasons given previously (see below) :)

Jack

[mojocvh]

A good compromise would be a thin, cotton, long-sleeved roll neck (a bit like ours, but maybe a bit less olive drab), over the polyester, short-sleeved M&S shirt.

dunno about that bit............sounds a bit "melty"

MoJo

[Pontius Navigator]

Don't discard the idea of a flying suit as they have lots of handy pockets etc.

Don't try and buy a military one however which would get you sneered at. There are plenty of others on the market. The military ones, certainly the Britmil, are built for all shapes and for comfort - they are not designed for nonchalant elegance - unless you are a Harrier pilot.

[airborne_artist]

The RN introduced smart poly-cotton shirts for working uniform (no. 8s) - and found 25 years ago that they melted onto burning skin. No fun for the wearer or the medical teams trying to save them.

They went back to the all cotton shirts.

[BRASSEMUP]

I think the main reason for civvies not wearing gloves is the cost between 28 - 32 pound a pair! For the classic mil gloves. I prefer the US issue gloves myself. Scrounged a nice sandy coloured pair in Iraq!

[ProfessionalStudent]

Originally posted by ProfessionalStudent

A good compromise would be a thin, cotton, long-sleeved roll neck (a bit like ours, but maybe a bit less olive drab), over the polyester, short-sleeved M&S shirt.

Originally posted by mojocvh

dunno about that bit............sounds a bit "melty"

I agree that in this context using "over" when making a comprison is a little confusing! Rather than "over", I should have less amibiguously written "rather than".

[Gnd]

I thought only students wore white
(-where is my blanco?)

What about roll neck under?

[ProfessionalStudent]

As for the silk inners. Well, they've made many a det more bearable...:O

[RETDPI]

"Most of us military folk fly in clothing designed to slow/lessen the impact of a flash fire, which is a bit more likely for us in an incident. "

:)

If you're cold and miserable - just chuck your flying suit on the fire. Learned that one at what used to be the RAF I.A.M. in days of yore.
Anything changed?

[Union Jack]

An abbreviated quote from Stockingshq.com regarding the views of their G5 crew:

"Our pilots are qualified on just about anything that flies. Both have previous military experience and our captain flew for Pan Am for many years. I asked him yesterday if he was familiar with any restriction or recommendation by the NTSB, the FAA or any other agency against women wearing nylons in flight. My wife wears nylons exclusively. He said he was completely unaware of any such warning and he added that if the inside of the plane ever got hot enough to melt nylon, fashion would not be our first concern. Good ole Jack! What a kidder!"

That said, I'm with A_A, and surely nylon (and similar) socks et al have been banned for military aircrew since time imemorial.

Jack

[RETDPI]

Nearly forty years ago gory pictures of nylon socks moulded into aircrew feet were common cause in the RAF.
We next saw similar injuries from the R.N. during the Falklands.

[Green Flash]

ProfStu

No speed burns, eh?:E

[woptb]

Other than the slightly more painful two pound lump hammer, they are the most effective means of converting dexterous digits into pigs tits :E

[Gnd]

Now WG100 will never want to ask a question again

Never thought of the lump hammer - interesting!!!!

[serf]

Most of our aircraft are ancient and leak oil everywhere, so they come in handy during the walkround!

[mojocvh]

Originally posted by ProfessionalStudent

Quote:
A good compromise would be a thin, cotton, long-sleeved roll neck (a bit like ours, but maybe a bit less olive drab), over the polyester, short-sleeved M&S shirt.
Originally posted by mojocvh

Quote:
dunno about that bit............sounds a bit "melty"
I agree that in this context using "over" when making a comprison is a little confusing! Rather than "over", I should have less amibiguously written "rather than".
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=3226088)

Oops :\

[Impiger]

Standards are obviously slipping. Doesn't anybody fly in a tie anymore?

[The Swinging Monkey]

wg100
They're an absolute must for getting a nice steaming-hot 'honkers' out of the oven on a Nimrod, or the hot water boiler on an E-3.
But seriously, if you have ever had an in-flight fire, then boy will you be glad you're wearing them then! I've had 2 cabin fires (both on Nimrods) and the natural instinct was to just 'bash' them out with my hands. It worked thankfully, and all my little pinkies are still separate and not welded together!
Kind regards to all
TSM

[robin]

One other little point my GP has raised with me.

He's noticed signs of skin damage on the back of my hands which he attributes to 35 years of flying in gliders and light aircraft. He has recommended using gloves for that reason.

[Flying Wild]

Standards are obviously slipping. Doesn't anybody fly in a tie anymore?


My Flying school wears ties as part of the uniform. Does that count?

[vortexadminman]

Hmmm all good points, I wear gloves when flying Mil and Civvy probably cause I have ony ever worn gloves being mil trained. I simply feel uncomfortable not wearing them. Fire, yes that s a biggy plus the fact that aircraft of most kinds ( not big fluffy 747) are bloody minging and Mil ones tend to have oil all over them (good thing means they have some in to leak) and you never quite know what the pilot before you was doing for all those boring hours over the oggin:ooh:

[Tempsford]

A while ago, someone took a swab sample from the control column of a Civil Transport aircraft and analysed it, then produced a report. Amongst other delightful discoveries there were a few dozen findings of urine (from different sources).
Delightful stuff so keep your gloves folks. I do remember seeing a few pilots wearing gloves on civy a/c. Most were ex forces, or perhaps they had read the above report.
Temps.

[Mal Drop]

We wear gloves so we don't leave fingerprints on the switches!

...and we wear silky French knickers for the wonderful sense of freedom...

[ShyTorque]

'But seriously, if you have ever had an in-flight fire, then boy will you be glad you're wearing them then! I've had 2 cabin fires (both on Nimrods) and the natural instinct was to just 'bash' them out with my hands.'

Burnt the toast again??

Another reason to wear them is that they keep your hands warm...... it's an issue in some military aircraft, especially helicopters when operating in the field.

Whatever you do about flying clothing, DO NOT buy one of those dangers to your health and safety, namely a 100% nylon 'flying' jacket, as advertised by one very well known UK vendor of goods aviation. Unless, if the worst ever happens, you don't mind superheated, melted nylon embedded in your flesh, making what might have been a minor injury into a third degree burn.

Or anything else made of 100% nylon unless you like the thought of skin grafts... It should be banned!

Some years ago I worked for an SAR unit that issued these jackets. I never wore mine. A crewman I used to fly with got his melted onto his hands after getting involved in a bush fire. Now they wear 100% Nomex.

[diginagain]

They have other, surprising uses too. For example, carrying someone's recently-separated testicle. Tom slipped while stepping over a barbed wire fence on patrol in the Emerald Toilet.

I swear you could hear his screams over the transmission whine all the way back to MPH.

[Letsby Avenue]

I always wore them in case I had to shake hands with one of those grubby engineering oiks:}

[YesTAM]

With the greatest of respect, may I refer you to this website and its presentation on crash survival, gory though it is?

Among other things, it explains that wearing gloves might mean that you still have hands after a fire.

Here is a hint: If you fly an aircraft with a passenger between you and the door (eg.Piper, Decathlon) you had better be wearing gloves.

http://www.angtec.ang.af.mil/spruance/Frameset.htm

[woptb]

I always wore them in case I had to shake hands with one of those grubby engineering oiks
Since enduring the sight of an F/O sobbing into a lace 'kerchief after cracking his nail varnish,a wise move indeed :rolleyes:

[parabellum]

A sad but true tale. An experienced Australian pilot in Indonesia insisted on wearing shorts and short sleeved shirts for flying as they were more comfortable in the heat than 'longs' and long sleeved shirts. Coming out of a clearing one day the engine fails, (Bell47G - piston engine/avgas etc.), heavy landing, aircraft caught fire, the engineer who was a pax managed to get out and drag the pilot out, engineer minor burns and bruises but the pilot died two days later from serious burns to his arms and legs, well over 50% of the body.

Totally different subject. Ladies wearing nylon stockings and/or panties tend to burn themselves when evacuating an aircraft down a slide! Seen it happen in practise drills.

[Anton Meyer]

Fg gloves are also a good way of preventing a particularly nasty injury called 'de-gloving', which is what happens when you catch a wedding ring on a piece of metal and tear the skin inside-out....
Not nice to experience (or see) as it can look as though a red glove has been partly removed.....:\:eek:

[Release-Authorised]

Lots of years ago, when I was an air cadet, I used to wear shorts and t-shirt when flying a Cessna 150 on my flying scholarship. I was cured of this practise when one of the flying club instructors showed me the deep red scars around his wrists and lower arms that had been caused by his habit of flying with his gloves rolled down and his flying suit sleeves rolled up combined with a flash fire in the cockpit of his Canberra. :uhoh:

Lesson learned, and now I always dress to survive.:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Mal Drop, I thought you girlies went Commando for that sense of freedom:}

[Wessex Boy]

On the subject of colour, in the late '80s they started issuing rotary loadies with green ones to match their DPM flying suits, but found that too many grunts couldn't see the hand signals and did their turning from green to red as they ran downhill trick....:}
so they insisted we swap them back in for the nice aiming-mark white ones....

[luoto]

Some of the new recruits have special gloves with "L" and "R" imprinted upon them.

[daze_gone_buy]

And if you are lucky, you beat some joker too it and they are the correct way around!

[seekayess]

Considering the various kind of people one ends up having to shake hands with as a fighters jock, 'tis better to keep the gloves on, in any case!! :}

[Comp Charlie]

Tenous link to flying gloves (although he always wore a pristine pair of white ones) but in the mid-90s there was a C-130 Captain who refused to lift or carry anything, including his own bag, because - as he put it - "My hands are my livelihood and I can't damage them".

As if this didn't make him sound a bit of a tit on its own, when we asked if he made his missus lug all the grocery shopping around on her own he mumbled something pathetic along the lines of his unwillingness to lift anything only meant on or around the aircraft.

Couldn't possibly let slip the name of the fella though, that would be indiscreet... ;) :oh:

CC

[Pontius Navigator]

Wessex Boy, I said I hope they don't mention colour. Now you've blown it. Another secret in the public domain.

[Wessex Boy]

PN, Sorry! Still we all wear white Silk underneath:E

[effortless]

When I had to leave HMs service, we had a ceremonial torching of my nice light-blue suit(yes we used to get pissed back in the dark ages as well). In a matter of a minute or two I was left with a pile of zips. The chaps went a bit green and made enquiries about flame retardants. I hope that they have improved in the last thirty odd years.

[Lunchmaster]

That safety presentation is scary. I'm now in the market for a pair of flying gloves having seen those pictures of mutilated hands. :eek:
I hadn't considered this before, although as a low-hours PPL I do make a point of not flying in nylon clothing such as a fleece. Instead, I go for long sleeves and natural fibres as a nod to fire protection.
For aerobatics I would want the full romper suit, bonedome and gloves purely because I consider the risks of a crash or emergency exit from the aircraft to be much greater than flying from A to B in a spam can.
Surely we should be encouraged to disregard any inevitable banter at the local flying club if it means we're more likely to survive a crash/fire and get to fly another day.
But among all the gore in the presentation, there was one picture showing an RAF-type leather flying glove all shrivelled up and a USAF-style nomex glove. The description said the nomex was better as it would stretch in the heat and therefore give longer lasting protection for hands.
That being so, why do the UK armed forces opt for leather gloves?

[Gnd]

To look good!

[RobinXe]

Lets rephrase that question:

'Why do the US forces get ultra-gucci kit, whilst the UK forces stuff is not so good?'

Answer is always:

'Money.'

[Could be the last?]

The parameters (Time/Heat)that Aircrew Equipment Assys (AEA) are supposed to withstand, are laid down in various Def Stans. Ultimately, they are all designed to give the individual enough time to evacuate the ac by his primary escape means.

Boots = 600deg for 2Secs during ejection!
Fly Suit = 600 deg for 4 secs (Flash Fire with Avtur)
Puffa Jkt = 600 deg for 0 secs ( Any fire any ac!!!!!)
etc

For those that continue to fly in the old style Fly Suit (Mk 14) have a look at the Thermo Man trials and I am sure it will be a good enough argument to wear the new Mk16.:=

[Pontius Navigator]

On the matter of spam cans, I always wear good stout shoes that I can run through a fire in. I wear a shirt and light wool sweater. I carry a jacket.

Friend of mine said he would, if he had the power, to order all pax in flip flops, shorts, singlets and boozed off his flights.

[Gnd]

Mk 16 - new!
Just cheap and a lot smaller than the old ones, use to be a 6 and now have to have a 9!!! gloves still fit but you can't get them!!!

There is no justice sometimes.

[621andy]

Just watched the safety slideshow on that website....hmmm:uhoh:

The state of the leather gloves back up exactly what happened to mine...
I used to glide with the space cadets, and we were issued with all the RAF kit, including the white posey leather gloves. At the time I had a sha99ed out Honda 90 as transport(yeah, young wild and free:} )
Anyway, the exhaust fell off one day as I was on my way to the gliding school. I just happened to be wearing my flying gloves, and not thinking, I picked up the remains of the bl00dy hot exhaust....the gloves immediately shrunk and looked exactly like those in the pics, and were a bu99er to get off-but they were still better than bare hands.

As a commercial balloon pilot I wear thickish leather gloves, but having seen the pics, I might well try a pair of Nomex ones. Our problem is that they've got to be liquid gas proof too, as if we have a leak, the propane comes out at -42°C and I suspect the nomex will let that through...:bored:

Food for thought though...

[RobinXe]

Theres nothing to stop you wearing two pairs andy, outers that stop fuel, and inners that stop fire would be the way round I'd suggest :}

[possel]

I did a BoI many years ago when one ejectee landed in the fireball - survived but burns were exacerbated by failure to wear a layer under the flying suit, loss of a leather glove in the ejection and the fact that the LSJ burns rather easily, transmitting heat to the person beneath through the unburnt flying suit.

The Board's recommendation on the LSJ was rejected (cost?) - dunno if they have made it out of something non-flammable now?

[rolling20]

I once got bollocked in a Bullldog at UAS for not having any socks on, though i was wearing bloody great desert boots kindly issued to me by the stores. The C.O. growled 'what would i do if it caught fire'. The thought of anything happening to my feet through those boots seemed negligable, but the C.O. wasnt a man to reason with!!
I do have a natty pair of white leather gloves though, the only thing i found useful wearing from my UAS days.

[mike172]

I'm pretty sure that most Japanese airline pilots wear white gloves while flying.

[ProfessionalStudent]

I'm pretty sure that most Japanese airline pilots wear white gloves while flying.

And a headband with the rising sun on it...:E

[oli,_the_original]

I seem to recall one of them screaming TORA, TORA, TORA on final approach once as well:}

[Flying Wild]

Talking to colleagues about this subject today... was scoffed at for saying that I'm not going to be flying in the issued polyester trousers and nylon based flying jacket, and would be looking to get some flying gloves. Their opinion is that you shouldn't be planning to crash...
Bol**cks to them I say, as I've served in the Army and you always plan for the worst.
Suggestions for places to source decent kit which won't turn me into a roman candle would be kindly received.

[Pontius Navigator]

Gloves also stop you picking your nose.

[oli,_the_original]

Only those who do not have the knack:} Its less finger and more seam.

[Immelmann]

Well, I can say, they protected my hands during and after an ejection (not erection!)!


Immelmann
"Living member Martin Baker Tie Club!"

[Talking Radalt]

It's thanks to flying gloves that I still have all four fingers on my left hand....or so said the surgeon who examined my badly mashed hand after a particularly nasty crush injury a la Wokka.:uhoh:

[MooseJaw]

You have loads of advice - it's really down to your own tolerance of risk in the event of a crash. It doesn't have to be a crash to hurt. Forced landing or even a 'ground event' can be unplesant enough. Before making a decison based on 'style choice' consider this:

You Gen Aviation types usually sit much closer to your fuel tanks than a typical Mil Crew, and there's usually less metal between you and the tank. You also prefer AVGAS (high octane petrol) where we tend to make do with AVTUR (paraffin).

As a fire accelerant AVGAS definatley wins - got a much lower flashpoint so its much easier to ignite from a broader range of ignition sources (electrical sparks, static etc), it vapourises easier (easier to get an flammable atmosphere build up) plus it has a really high calorific value so it burns with a much hotter brighter flame.

Unfortunately, plenty of Mil Crew can testify that even lowly AVTUR can produce a mean fire. Bitter experience drives our preference for gloves. A BBMF Hurricane once forced landed at Wittering with engine failure. The landing was very rough but fortunately the Crew got out relatively OK. However, the Hurri burst into flame and was totalled. Soon after all BBMF went over to their black Nomex suits and natural fabric clothing - their black outfits white roll-necks aren't total posing!
We subsequently re-built the Hurri (literally from its ashes) and it flies today without any fire mark - we have yet to learn how to do that with flesh.

Your choice - personally I stick to the coolest looking set of low flammable clothing I can find (still look a tragic sight!) and wear light gloves.

Regards

Moosejaw http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon6.gif

[Schiller]

Another good reason for wearing gloves...
Many years ago an RN Venom crew were held at altitude while the deck was being cleared of an obstruction. Pressures grew, and eventually the pilot, who had a manky old pair of gloves with many holes, casually asked his looker for a loan of one of his new ones, which he proceeded to pee into.
Problem. The pilot was holding a full glove, the fuel was getting decidedly low and as the deck had been cleared they were invited to descend into the circuit. They depressurized, opened the DV panel and attempted to chuck the contents of the glove out. Unfortunately, it blew back in and froze all over the cockpit glazing. They were reduced to desperately trying to scrape the stuff off before it melted all over them during the descent. It was not a great success, and I'm told that RL and AH had special seats in the crew room allocated to them for some time afterwards.

[seekayess]

Wearing gloves is about the same as taking out a life insurance: you may think you are not going to cop it in an accident -- and the majority of people may not! -- and yet, there are those unfortunate few who do and the wives/families are the ones who are grateful that the insurance was there!

Those of you never involved in a fire situation in an aircraft may feel wearing the gloves = being a pansy, but that is not really true! :)

I remember from my milaviation days, ALL of us ALWAYS wore gloves for flying and a lot of us wore them while riding the mo-bikes, too!!

cheers

:D

[Lara crofts pants]

Also, flying gloves with tiny holes in the ends of the fingers + shaving foam makes for a very amusing practical joke.

[Roadster280]

Schiller - my ribs hurt !

[Cabbage Patch Kid]

What about the Immersion gloves as well. They are great if you intend going for a swim but nobody in the Stacker chain can seem to find any. :ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

Also aircraft have sharp edges and hydaulic oil under pressure can do wonders for micro surgery.

The number of cuts in my gloves! As BEagle said, great for checking the pie is properly cooked. Also you can handle hot soup tins and meals with gloved hands.

They are also great at BBQs for picking the sausages out of the fire.

[Pontius Navigator]

Why wear flying gloves?

The definitive answer is in today's (23 May) Daily Telegraph on page 19.

[seekayess]

Hey PN


Post it please for us non-UK-ites! :confused:

[Lunchmaster]

That picture made me shiver. He doesn't appear to be wearing any protective gear at all, never mind gloves! God only knows what was going through his mind (For those who haven't seen the picture or can't see it - there's a close up photo of a Bede burning up at an airshow in Australia with the pilot clearly visible trying to clamber out and grimacing in pain. He's got no gloves on or head protection and is enveloped in flames).
I'm getting gloves before I next fly and ensuring I'm wearing low flammable gear all over - but what about the head? Can't see the wearing of bone domes in spam cans taking off really (I've read the previous posts on this topic).
Lunchmaster

[Wader2]

Here is a link to a couple of photos of the Bede on fire. They are not the same as in the DT.

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=29246

[SilsoeSid]

I've just seen the pic in the Telegraph, yes he hasn't got any gloves on, nor for what its worth a helmet which may or may not give any fire protection anyway, but my main concern would be what is he breathing in?

If that pic makes you change your mind about not wearing gloves, does it also change your mind about not having an independant breathing apparatus in the aircraft!

I don't think it's a look of pain, just realisation that he is in the brown and smelly and needs to get out!

[airborne_artist]

http://www.thewest.com.au/getfile.aspx?Type=image&ID=44353&ObjectType=3&ObjectID=48632

A pilot suffered spinal injuries when his ultralight plane crashed and burst into flames at an experimental aircraft event in Western Australia.
The 43-year-old man, from the southern Perth suburb of Casuarina, suffered minor burns and spinal injuries when the ultralight crashed shortly after take-off at Northam airstrip, 96km east of Perth on Sunday.
He was airlifted to Royal Perth Hospital where he was in a stable condition on Monday, a hospital spokesman said.
Northam Aero Club president Tony Rees said the small plane was an experimental aircraft called a BD5.
"It's an experimental aircraft, it was probably amateur built by the owner," Mr Rees said.
"It was registered as a V8 aeroplane."
Mr Rees said the aero club had hosted a fly-in at the request of the Sport Aircraft Association of Australia, a group of aviation enthusiasts who build and fly recreational aircraft.
He said a couple of hundred of spectators had turned up to watch the fly-in.
"We had a great time until the accident happened."
The pilot was pulled from the wreckage by spectators and aero club members.

[Pontius Navigator]

As for the link to the DT picture I could not find it. I then 'found' a link to on in the Mail but although the DM site opened the pic was not there, curious. I see there is a link to some Oz sites however.

Agree with Siloe Sid that full fire protection and breathing would be nice however HANDS are the one essential to survival. Without hands you cannot open the canopy, unstrap, pull or push. Same reason for immersion gloves. You need those hands in the first minute of the disaster. Thereafter you will live or die.

[SilsoeSid]

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/getfile2.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/getfile.jpg

[seekayess]

Ouch!! :ugh:

Wonder if the gent had ever done professional flying, or was he just an 'aviation enthusiast'!?

[SilsoeSid]

BD5 VH-NZG built by Peter Gilbertson

http://www.sabc.org.au/All/Photos/Aircraft/BD5.JPG

Experts cast keen eyes over Peter Gilbertsons BD5.....engine tuning

Photo credit to Allan Churn

http://www.sabc.org.au/All/Photos/Aircraft/BD5.html