Helicopters/Microlites

[valve guide]

I would be grateful for views and comments on the following. I live in the South of England with a major airfield zone close to where I live. There is a microlite site about 2 miles outside the zone.

On a FIS I get told VFR not above 2000ft, the microlite school sits at 780 ft. I fly over it at 2000ft on a regular basis. This being 1220ft above the ground. I have had complaints from the owners saying I'm flying through their circuit and when pointing out that I am 220ft above it I was told that a student microlite pilot might wander above the 1000ft circuit height. They also complained that they had tried on several occasions calling me on the safety frequency, I was on the nearby airports approach frequency being 2 miles outside their zone. I have asked in the past for an increased height and been denied every time(12 requests). I was also accused of not being at 2000ft and pointed to my Mode S transponder and asked them to call the ATC and check.

The overall tone from the lady in charge was pretty awful and on pointing to the Mode S transponder negating her arguement that I was not at 2000ft seemed to make her worse. I left with her telling me not to fly over the airfield again and to make a 8 mile detour around some hills nearby. I smiled and left.

Views???

[topendtorque]

Views???

Shotgun!
bird fright ammo,

carry on a mock conversation on their prescious freq, 'bandits 3 oclock etc'

put one or two outside their ops / coffee / procastination / room.

sail on, :ok:

[996]

It would be useful if you could give the ICAO designator.

[chevvron]

If it's a microlight only site, it's probably unlicenced and hence no ATZ, so theoretically you can do what you like provided you comply with rule 5; that doesn't absolve you from compliance with 'knowingly or deliberately hazarding the safety of an aircraft' in the ANO (both yours and theirs).
Microlight common frequency (limited to use for microlight associated comms only) is 129.825; why not try calling? It should only be A/G radio and the radio operator is not allowed to issue instructions or advice, only traffic information to allow you to conduct your flight in safety.

[ShyTorque]

Can't follow the gist of "not above 2000ft" on an FIS, if in Class G.

Is there some airspace above you that cannot be entered without clearance?

I concur, if no ATZ exists, the "lady" has no jurisdiction whatsoever. Sounds like their own pilots need to be made aware of the rules of the air. If you fly in the open FIR, that's exactly what it is.

Having said that, can't you give them some lateral avoidance?

[scooter boy]

I would give them a call and state your intentions prior to crossing through their overhead. No ATZ no problem. I doubt that you will be dealing with a veritable hornet's nest of microplanks.

Any more phone calls from the lady who thinks she owns the open sky and I would land there (close to as many parked microplanks as possible, flipping them all over :E if you can) and tell her to F****FF face to face.

Communication is the answer here!

SB

[xrayalpha]

Hi,

Had to reply since I have an airfield in Scotland that is two miles outside an ATZ and had posted this on a microlight group in response to an incident at london Colney.

Was amazed that I had raised the same points as this lady, and that ATC the UK over likes "not above 2,000ft" in Glass G AND that we are almost 1,000ft above sea level.

>>We have a similar problem at Strathaven, and with light aircraft too.

The bigger problem are light aircraft who fly right through the
circuit at 1,000ft (we are 847ft above sea level and on the edge of a
corner of the Glasgow zone. Glasgow ATC often route traffic "outside
controlled airspace and not above 2,000 QNH"

So, what to do.

Number one. Talk to ATC. Point out some identified problems (this is
classic health and safety stuff) and suggest solutions too. (ie
suggest keeping to the south and east of Strathaven town)

Number two. Identify aircraft and then use G-INFO to send them a free
landing fee voucher.

Number three: Call ATC (ie Scottish Info) and ask them if they were
handling (possibly an FIS) an aircraft recently in your vicinity.

Number Four: Use a digital camera to take a picture and then enlarge
the pic on the computer to read the reg. Or show it to a local plane
spotter.

Five: Invite ATC and pilots from clubs and schools nearby to a BBQ.
This is what the parachute school at Strathallan does every year.
Then has a prize giving and says: Now you know exactly where we are,
bugg** off until next year and keep away from our jumpers (unless you
have ppr, use the radio etc etc)

Education is the key - but then, as an instructor, I would say that!


ps. To one chopper chap who I spoke to the other day, I got the
reply: But I was at 2,000ft exactly, so I would be above the circuit.

Says I: The airfield elevation is 847, so the circuit height is 1847.

Says he: Yes, so that why I gave you a little clearance.

Says I: Do you trust students to fly within 153ft of a given height?
(my polite way of saying: I don't trust helicopter pilots to fly
within 153ft of a given height!)

Says he: Aaaah! I think I will keep east and south of the town now!

>>>>>>>>

I am not in the helicopter that may plummet earthwards after a mid-air. Hopefully I won't be in the microlight (or the light aircraft that are now based at my field). Unfortunately, I may be quite pally with the non-helicopter chaps and their demise would upset me a little.

Let's ALL fly safe.

ps. At Strathaven, we use safety.com, not the microlight frequency. So we are banned by law from replying to any traffic calls. Apart from the microlight frequency being cluttered with non-essential traffic, and further training required to operate an air-gound service, I don't like the idea of a "non-permanently" manned frequency. It gives the idea that if there is no reply, then there is no activity (whereas the operator may just be in the loo/hanger/cutting the grass etc)
With safety.com, the default has to be that the airfield is active.

[Chukkablade]

Xrayalpha, I fly near you guys, and fair play to Glasgow Radar, they have never told me not above 2000 in that area, but merely ask for notification if I'm planning on going above that level.

In short, :D to Glasgow for their attitude. I know you posted differently, but I honestly can't fault them. I dont envy them their job, and they do it bloody well.

So...how does one qualify for this free landing voucher you dish out then:E

(as for this daft woman who is giving Valve Guide a pile of grief, someone really should offer her some education on the rules and regs before she goes shooting her mouth off. She isn't doing much for the Microlight cause by ramming that attitude down the throat of someone who is in the right)

[xrayalpha]

Hi Chukkablade,

To qualify the dangerous way, just fly over the field at below 1847ft on the QNH :-(

Or just phone me for PPR for a first visit on 0797 997 1301!

To be fair to Glasgow, they can't give instructions in Class G, but as you say they leave it up to you to ask for above 2,000. And for many low experience pilots they tend not to ask! (unlike me who when given the 2,000ft on a FIS round the south west of the zone point out that I'll need more to get over the Hunterston nuclear plant. They then give 2500 no problem.)

We have a Glasgow controller flying a light aircraft from here and he and his colleagues are really trying their best - as I am too. We are arranging a Letter of Agreement with Glasgow on our ops, even though we are outside their airspace. They, in turn, are looking at various schemes to promulgate the boundaries with their airspace - including asking BAA if we can fly into Glasgow for a visit. In turn, I have suggested that pilots based at Strathaven MUST have a visit to Glasgow ATC (by road!) within nine months of basing themselves here (we plan two visits a year, so you can miss the first but not the second!)

It is all an educational thing.

Look forward to seeing you at Strathaven - map and a plate at ukga.com

Colin

[NickLappos]

I suggest that a quick call to the largest local newpaper will get an article about the ATC people who "command" you to conflict with known traffic (all true - who cares about the kind of license the microlight facility has? the metal that your rotor eats will still taste bitter!)

I am constantly amazed at folks who park their brains neatly when someone publishes a rule book. Traffic is traffic, and vectoring you into someone elses traffic is simply unwise.

[Graviman]

XA, i believe i have flown with you out of Cumbernauld on an air-ex flight. Very enjoyable it was too, but i then turned to the dark side of rotary wing. I am studying physics this year, but was planning on visiting Strathavan when done - it's conveniently located. I enjoy learning on helis, when i can stump up some cash, but just can't afford to do it regularly :sad: - being honest just getting up there is good for me.

Do you operate 3 axis machines or is is only weight shift? I don't mind, but want to hang on to stick and pedal ability.

Mart

[valve guide]

Had a meeting with the lady concerned yesterday and she had calmed down considerably. We are going to try and arrange a mtg with ATC as I would rather fly over(and maybe I can anyway) her airfield (well, farm!) at 3000ft as there are some high bumpy hills if I take her diversion.

Xrayalpha, never heard of Strathaven but see you are on the map as a microlite site, this lady isn't. With regard to your comments I don't trust helicopter pilots to fly within 153ft of a given height. Is it just me or is that not rather arrogant. I had the advantage of having a Mode S transponder fitted to my Enstrom so trust didn't come into it but I'm sure the chap concerned would have been keeping a close eye on his altitude as he was flying over your (oops almost said your air space but of course it isn't is it?)

In conclusion we all enjoy flying and there's plenty of room for all of us but there are ways and means of puting this across. To stand shouting and bawling at someone really doesn't get us anywhere. I think in reflection this lady realises this although no apology has been offered. I am happy to inform you of anything positive that comes of our meeting Xray and perhaps you could do the same. Does it still rain as much up there??

[Chukkablade]

Valve Guide - its not rain, its Scottish sunshine. You get used to it. :uhoh:

Xrayalpha - I'll take you up on that offer of a landing, but I'll do it with a phone call and not by pissing you and the rest of the guys off with an overfly. Oh, and Valve Guide has a point. Us rotary guys can fly at an assigned height. It was even on our test. Honest!

Strathaven is a beautifull place, and well worth a visit. Within a 30 mile radius you have everything from Glasgow (shopping for the missus) and New Lanark, a brilliant experience for the children. Definately far worse places to drop into.:ok:

[valve guide]

Scottish Sunshine????? Well ok if you say so. I must confess you have some of the most fantastic scenery and it probably wouldn't be as nice if it wasn't for the rain. If Xray will have me i might pop into Strathaven one day, calling first of course. Yeah they do make us fly accurately for our test and pass exams and learn the radio and do engine off landings. I think most heli pilots I know new and weather beaten fly within a 50ft margin if not better.....just the way we're trained I suppose. Do you really think I could afford to fly helicopters if I let my wife loose on the shops!!! Question: What have you done wrong if your wife comes out of the kitchen into your living room shouting and bawling?? Answer: Made the chain too long!!!!:)

[xrayalpha]

Hi all,

The PR bit follows, but in the meantime, no offense meant about helicopter folk flying accurately.

In microlighting, accurate for straight and level for GST is plus or minus 100ft. Applying that to a 150ft separation gives a 50ft overlap between one person 99ft high and one 99ft low!

And our ATC chap seems to think that many pilots - of all aircraft - have trouble maintaining a constant altitude (he gets to see lots of Mode C - Mode S just tells him who you are, but no-one in Scottish ATC has Mode S - wrong type of sunshine up here????)

Now the PR bit.

We will have a C42 Ikarus available for hire, shared ownership and traning within the next few weeks. So come and try 80m take-off roll, 1,000ft a minute climb and just 10 litres of mogas an hour (with cabin heat).

Bet you helicopter guys can't beat the third point ;-)

Very best to all flyers,

Colin

[valve guide]

I suppose we have to admit defeat on the last one. 15 gallons an hour and AVGAS at that.:{ :{ :{

[ShyTorque]

If two aircraft are at the same altitude they must collide..? :confused:

However, if pilots (learners or not) choose to fly circuits in Class G airspace, they actually have no priority over any other airspace user, whatever the landowner might wish and should give way if required, to a transitting aircraft iaw the rules of the air.

[Chukkablade]

Shytorque, I'm a newby here, so thank you for making a point I couldn't summon up the courage to transmit from head to keyboard.

Thats not to say for a minute I'd ever consider a 'sod you, I'm legal, so no worries' attitude, but it IS the truth:confused:

Oh hell, where's that can of worms.:{

[valve guide]

Shytorque, my point entirely. I wasn't going up to this lady and saying " what the hell are your guys and gals doing flying circuits in my airspace?" Therefore really didn't expect a bawling match by her saying something similar to me. As I said previously theres plenty of room for all of us, just attitudes not altitudes that have to change.

Class G is Class G PERIOD.

[xrayalpha]

Class G is Class G, period.

Oh well, might as well rise to the challenge.

Flying is about safety. Period.

If you know there is an obstacle 1,000ft above the ground nearby and you can't see it, you climb to a height in excess of 1,000ft. That's safe.

If you suspect that there is a good chance of something in the air ahead of you, and you can't see it, you make a slight detour. That's safe.

Why are airfields - licensed or not - marked on charts? Not so as you can land there - my 530m of grass would be a worse choice in an emergency than the longer flatter fields by the nearby A71! and it doesn't indicate PPR etc - but so as you know where there might be "obstacles in the air", and so you can choose to avoid them! That's safe.

Please don't get me wrong. I am a microlighter through and through. That means we hate controlled airspace and its continual extension (possibly we hate all control!!!). Less control the better - but it does come at a price: more responsibility - to other pilots and their pax, our pax, the people on the ground and - at the end - ourselves.

Very best wishes,

fly safe

[bvgs]

The helicopter chap Xrayalpha refers to was me. Sorry to hear you are having trouble Valve Guide. For me its just a case of swinging around Strathaven which is hardly much of a detour. I do take on board all points raised here, but at least I got a coffee from Xray and no bad feelings ...I think. Xray has a point in that we want to remain safe and if doing a little detour assists that then surely its worth it. With regard to bumpy in the hills I thought those 3 bladed Enstroms were supposed to be great for that unlike my 2 bladed robbie.

Thanks for the coffee Xray, remember if I can help you out with any printing let me know. Incidently one of your guys, well a microlite anyway flew over my house today from west to east at about 300ft, time 12 noon!!! Doesn't bother me but not good practise. It was red, maybe they're all red who knows!

[Chukkablade]

No, you're not.:}

[valve guide]

Well had our meeting and all seems to be ok. Mrs X apologised and we have increased the ATC awareness and will fly VFR not above 3000ft. Take your point BVGS and yes the Enstrom is far better than Robbies in turbulence, better all round I'd say but then I would.

[valve guide]

Xrayalpha, just a comment from ATC which you may wish to comment on. They have said that they think it totally irresponsible for any form of aircraft to be flying just outside controlled airspace without speaking to them, even just to say we are operating at XYZ at altitudes of ABC so that they can inform other trafic who don't mind "control" to be aware of the possible dangers in that airspace. One of the dangers pointed out in using Safety.com is that due to its nature there is no conformation that your call has been heard or that 2 people talk at once both thinking they've been heard. Mrs X agreed to call the each and every day to tell them when they were active and when they had finished. ATC advised that I call on their microlite freq and advise of my routing etc before going back to ATC for FIS. Bottom line tell as many as you can. Sounds sensible to me but perhaps not to you if you don't like the "control" aspect.

Final point to BVGS. How are your blades, hear they are delaminating all over the place and the crap I here about Enstroms at least we don't have a 12 year life and our blades last at least 3 times as long as the robbies if they ever meet there 2200 hours.

[bvgs]

Thanks for asking my blades are fine!! Sorry you have a problem with Robbies and with regard to the blades not lasting how's your turbocharged engine, going to make it to its 1500 hour overhaul.........don't think so?? I think they all have their problems just in different places. Fly safe.