Daily Mail 6 Apr 06

[navibrator]

Max Hastings says " In the nature of its role, most sailors - like the RAF - work not uncomfortable routines and scarcely suffer a casualty from one year to the next. They belong to the Armed Forces but have little experience of fighting anybody".

Thoughts?

[electric.sheep]

In the nature of its role

Can't argue with Max's statement, what else would you like to hear apart from inter-service bickering?

[Wingswinger]

I spent 15 happy years flying Hunters, Harriers, Hunters again and Tornado GRs. I shot at no-one, no-one shot at me but I had great fun practicing for it!
:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Top Bunk Tester]

Tell that to the families of the crew of Hilton 22 :mad:

[airborne_artist]

Not the most sensitive utterance given the significant losses of sailors and ships in the South Atlantic in 82.

Sure, you don't get the small but regular losses of a land force such as those sandy/rocky side at the moment, but when they happen at sea, they tend to happen in bigger numbers.

Belgrano, anybody?

[electric.sheep]

Max did say 'most sailors (and airmen)' Re: Op Corporate who were in the ships and who ultimately took the ground?

[Maple 01]

You're point being ES?

little experience of fighting anybody

I assume 'Hittler' means in the army face-to-face stylee - I know he's a journo but you'd think he could see the difference between the roles of the Army, Navy and RAF.

[Vage Rot]

Of course, the cynical amongst us would just say
"That's why I tried so hard at school!":oh: :ooh: :eek:
<<Takes cover and waits for abuse!!>>

[HAL9000]

So, to keep Max happy, would all aircraft and ships please move to park within easy range of the enemy in order that the RAF and RN can start suffering some proper casualties.

[Jackonicko]

As a journalist, I'd like to leap in and defend Max.

He's brave and pushy, after all, and his writing is eminently readable. His populism is such that he must be the only military writer who is a household name. He was writing when proper publishers paid proper money for military related non-fiction books. Even mediocre ones. I envy that.

So I'd like to defend him.

But I really can't.

The bloke is a typically narrow-minded, over-opinionated, arrogant Thatcherite boor. He's a decent if rather populist writer, (especially on narrow infantry related subjects), and he's spent enough time with the army (and at his late father's knee, no doubt) for some understanding of the brown jobs to have percolated through the woodwork.

But in my humble opinion he doesn't have the experience, education, or (frankly) the intelligence to understand the more technical branches of the services, nor the maturity to want to learn, nor the humility to acknowledge his weak areas and to refrain from commenting about them. I personally find him simplistic and dogmatic, unoriginal and predictable. I would say that he allows his kneejerk far right prejudices to inform what he writes to a breathtaking extent, making him about the most unreliable source in the media today on Eurofighter, for example.

And what really sticks in my craw is that though he clearly wasn't good enough to join any of the forces himself, he has the audacity to pontificate about people whose boots he isn't fit to lick. Part of "the Armed Forces but with little experience of fighting anybody?" Where do you get off, Max?

And how many people did you have to bayonet while editing the Telegraph, Max? Was the experience of hand to hand combat there such that you feel superior enough to feel no shame in criticising the vast bulk of the Royal Navy?

And yet ignorant and lazy editors still roll the overrated so and so out when they need an easy quote.

Words fail me.

[AlanM]

What's next from this bozo...?

"The British Army, not known for it's air combat, hasn't lost any fast jets for many years"

Donkey
:ugh:

[airborne_artist]

And while not belittling the highly arduous conditions of those serving overseas, has Sir Max actually tried living and working on board a working warship for any length of time? They are not luxury liners, well not since the last County class was paid off. Jack's "personal space" is virtually non-existent, for a start.

[AlanM]

What is it about the media in this country?

They promote talentless plonkers and nobody's on reality programmes/gameshows/talentquizzes with superstar media coverage.

They then clip the wings of anyone "ordinary" for doing a hard job, with less than great pay, living in ***** conditions and try and dumb them down.

Give THEM their 15 mins of fame and adulation.

[Junglynx]

OK forgive me for lack of detail but this is off the cuff.

Nimrod in Afghanistan
Lynx in Basra (not forgotten Dobbo)
RIB crew on the Shat
Herc crew

Just off the top of my head for the last 18 months.

That's not enough for Mr Hastings though:rolleyes:

[Chris Kebab]

He writes for the Daily Mail - enough said.

Nob.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

And while not belittling the highly arduous conditions of those serving overseas, has Sir Max actually tried living and working on board a working warship for any length of time? They are not luxury liners, well not since the last County class was paid off. Jack's "personal space" is virtually non-existent, for a start.
Didn't he spend a little time on some of HMs canoes back in '82? :hmm:
Methinks you lot doth protest too much. :ok:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Hastings complained that the carriers weren't in the middle of the air raids, he couldn't get it into his think head that this would have lost the war.

I'll be back when my blood pressure has eased a little..........aaaaaargggh

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Hastings complained that the carriers weren't in the middle of the air raids, he couldn't get it into his think head that this would have lost the war.

I'll be back when my blood pressure has eased a little..........aaaaaargggh

And what would you know with your huge military background? You were booted out the Navy after a few weeks for attitude.

[Melchett01]

And what about the Battle of Britain, the horrendous losses suffered by Bomber Command, the distinct lack of survivors when the Hood was sunk, the average life expectancy / survival rates for sub crews (both sides) during the WW2.

Plus he seemed quite happy to kiss arse and hand out complements to JHF(A) personnel when he came out to Bastion last summer with CGS. So quite a change of tune since then.

For a historian, Hastings appears to be displaying an astonishing level of ignorance. Either that or it is just age creeping up on him and he is starting to get forgetful.

[Lionel Lion]

And what would you know with your huge military background? You were booted out the Navy after a few weeks for attitude
I am just utterly p*ssing myself with laughter. Funniest thing I've read on here for ages
:D

[electric.sheep]

I suspect many who have contributed here have not read the article, if they had another of Maxs' statements would have attracted more comment.

There is a strong case for ensuring that CDS is always a soldier. We should abandon the nonsense of rotating the top job among three services. Our services need leadership from the top, from people who understand what fighting forces are about, as few modern sailors and airmen do.

The article is in the modern context and references to WWII and even Corporate are unfair.

[nigegilb]

Max has made the wrong call here. These people have clearly been put through the ringer. They got out safely, no permanent damage done. They were never prisoners of war and we moved away from the big four many years ago. Max is out of date and picking on the wrong targets. My issue with all this, is how it ever came to be that they were encicled without any cover from the mother ship or helo, in poorly equipped and defended boats. It is clear to me that our military is losing its cutting edge. Too many cuts too much salami slicing. Today, we are not conducting these ops they have been suspended. One hopes the review will not pull its punches and our RN is given the resources it needs and has been asking for, for some time. In the mean time, I believe these people are owed an apology by the likes of Max Hastings.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

He flew with us on the E-3D once.. He'd just stepped out of a GR1 famil trip and his flying suit was steaming with honk... not his fault that he threw up but he missed the bag.
Anyway, he sat next to me and for the next 2 hrs didn't say a word. Or display any curiosity about where he was or what we were doing.
"I don't feel well and I'm sulking.."
His loss.
sv

[Phil_R]

> What is it about the media in this country?

The viewers.

And in the case of the BBC, the management, since they're not beholden to the viewers to get paid.

If the grunting lowbrows who watch Big Brother stood up as one and said "now, wait a minute, I've just realised this is complete drivel," you would find something better would appear PDQ. Obviously the management shoulder some of the blame due their complete failure to try and extend people's horizons, but if the viewers will tolerate it, the broadcasters will show it. If you believe anything more Machiavellian than simple capitalism is going on here, you're an accomplished conspiracy theorist.

Complaining about the state of news in this country is rather like complaining that a Big Mac isn't a prime fillet steak.

Phil

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

...Or display any curiosity about where he was or what we were doing.
He was in an E3D! Doesnt take a genius to work out he was; a) pretty close to Lincoln b) Flying in circles:E

[lordsummerisle]

That's the reason i was an airman in the RAF, the only service that sends it's officers out to fight!

[MooseJaw]

Dear All,

Want to know how this idiot achieved this title from his fellow media and military 'minders' during the Falkands War? Find a copy of the book - "Don't Cry for me Sargeant Major". It was a paperback written by other media guys. Should you find a copy hold on tight to it - its well worth the hunt. It is a true hoot, guaranteed to liven up a the darkest evening!
It also paints a rather incisive picture of a certain Hack's performance aboard a ship at risk of attack!
Hasting's contempt for the military probably first crystallised there - he didn't distinguish himself in the eyes of those around him and afterwards he began his now well practised routine of sniping at the military. It probably began with what he (and in fairness others) regarded as 'MoD's news management' at the time. Another interpretation is that it might have had something to do with the very limited early data links available aboard the RN in 1982 in the S. Atlantic - and their priority use for business other than newsfiling!
Any way, find the book - forget about him - sit back and enjoy!

[Mike Oxmels]

Max Hastings says " In the nature of its role, most sailors - like the RAF - work not uncomfortable routines and scarcely suffer a casualty from one year to the next. They belong to the Armed Forces but have little experience of fighting anybody".

I suggest he tells that to the Support Helicopter force, especially those Wokka mates who will be collecting their DFCs soon. Incessant full on war fighting dets are the norm and regrettably we all know about the SH casualties. I suspect that next time Hastings visits the bar at Odi or Benson, he'll get windowed.

[Regie Mental]

Must agree that 'Don't Cry for Me Sergeant Major' is the funniest military book I've read, laugh out loud funny. There was also a follow up about BAOR which is well worth getting.

[Archimedes]

The follow up was 'Try not to laugh, Sergeant Major'. Both written by Hastings' fellow Falklands journalists Jeremy Hands & Robert McGowan.

[My Dad's Little Boy]

I made the mistake of lending those two books out about 10 years ago - never seen them since.

MDLB

[samuraimatt]

Why don't you just ask the person who borrowed them to give them back to you.

[wokkameister]

Nimrod - 14 dead
Herc - 9 Dead
Lynx - 5 Dead
Puma -2 Dead

Rest in Peace them all.

Herc in Al Amarah - Close run thing
Herc in Lashkar Gah - Close run thing

Chinooks - 3 DFC's before breakfast last September

This type of pompous idiot is the latest example of journo's telling the public what the military are doing wrong.

That worked well in Vietnam I believe.

Sack the Tw@t

[Archimedes]

That worked well in Vietnam I believe.

As Max Hastings would know, having been there telling the world what the military were doing wrong.

[philrigger]

"They belong to the Armed Forces but have little experience of fighting anybody".


He has obviously not been in the NAAFI bar on a Thursday night !!!!




'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'