The reaction of the British captives to the Iranians

[SET 18]

Firstly, I would say that, no, I do not KNOW how I would react when put in the same situation as these sailors and marines and I don't start the thread in an attempt to bash or belittle them.

At the same time though I have to say that I am surprised that not one of them refused to participate in the Iranian's pathetic attempts to embarrass both them and the UK as a nation. None of them refused a change of clothes in order to stay in their own uniform, nor refused to wear a scarf (!) nor refused to acknowledge that they believed themselves to be acting properly in the execution of their duties.

I found the captain's (I think) conversation with Ahmedinejad particularly obsequious and not befitting a British serviceman being held against his and his country's will.

I honestly don't think that it is wrong to expect some gumption sometimes-at least form the more senior guys. I just found watching the news bulletins a bit embarrassing.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Oh how bloody precious,

If you think you found it embarrassing, sat in your comfy chair, horlicks in hand pontificating in such an uncomfortable manner imagine how bloody awful it must have been for each one of those brave folk knowing their only hope of freedom was to play along with this feckin circus :}

JHFC words almost fail me:ugh:

[YesTAM]

Set18, with the greatest of respect you have absolutely no idea what the captives were told or how they were treated. Therefore your opinion makes no sense..

Please understand that the day to day reality of captives in this situation is created by their captors, even down to when its day and night.

There are dozens of scenarios where the captives could be made to sing like canaries, for example, they may have been told that the British Government had made full admissions about their culpability, apologised to Iran and begged it's forgiveness.

They could have been told that Britain had abandoned and disowned them and that they were facing twenty year jail terms.

They could have been told that the British had rioted in support of the Iranians and Blair had resigned in disgrace over the matter.

There is an almost endless set of such scenarios, and thats without any physical coercion.....and now I'll shut up.

[Two's in]

Trying to be slightly less emotional (but understandably so), unless you are familiar with Conduct after Capture or Resistance to Interrogation techniques, it's probably better not to comment at all on those matters. Regardless of what training these personnel had or had not received, those in the know realize exactly what they are going through and why they are behaving the way they are. Just accept it and don't be a Sun reader.

[Union Jack]

.... Blair had resigned in disgrace over the matter.

That's probably what they had just been told to make them react as they did when they were filmed cheering and hugging each other!

More seriously, very glad they are to be freed and very amused by Blair's obvious discomfiture outside No 10.

Jack

[Permanent Sand]

I've been after some new threads for a few weeks now, yes I am jealous. Maybe I'm in the wrong job.....

PS

[althenick]

Set,
I've often gone through what they may have done in my mind but the bottom line is this - WTF do I know! I wasn't there. I believe their position at the time was that when captured they were facing an enemy better armed and equipped and there is no disgrace in surrendering in that situation. And when in captivity, they may have decided to do everything possible not to further inflame the situation. Remember they were not POW's - This one had to be handled by the diplomats. In my opinion they all handled the whole sorry affair with professionalism and dignity. :ok:
PS - I think your posting is a wee bit unfair and abraisive

[SET 18]

Well, I did start by saying that I was not condemning these people.

I DO have a lot of R to I training, thank you. I have also served for a long times in the Middle East and have encountered the Arab "hospitality" along the way.
I do accept everything that contributors have said about what they might have been told; SO DO THEY...I remain disappointed than none of them refused to capitulate. Servicemen and women are told in no uncertain terms about what awaits them when they go to that part of the world.
I would have thought that even a basic knowledge of current affairs would have told these guys that there was nothing that the Iranians could have done to them without incurring the world and his wife's ire. I would have thought that this might have convinced them of the unlikelihood of it occurring.

So, Sledomfitforpurpose and Tam, I am not "pontificating" or "Sitting in my comfy chair" I have been there, many times as it happens. This is a military forum. I have been in several scenarios that could be judged to be more dangerous than theirs. Admittedly, never with their particular outcome, but very dangerous nonetheless. I have never read the Sun (I do sometimes look at the pictures though!)

[Junglynx]

Two's in makes an excellent point.

Namely that you have little or no idea of what you're talking about.

I hope that you are journo filth fishing for something to self justify your continued use of the planets oxygen. If you are in the military then please avail yourself of the mess Webley.

Resisting your captors for no reason other than some armchair warrior wants you to make them feel better by association is, like you, stupid.

Who the fcuk are you to decide what is befitting behaviour for someone in a situation you freely admit to knowing nothing about. You're not even sure of the rank of one of them in question.

If you know nothing, say nothing.

[Permanent Sand]

Yes Altenhick, to the untrained eye, my post may have looked a little rough around the neck. Sorry if I offended you, but I'm still looking for some new threads!

PS

[BluntedAtBirth]

Well lets do the scores shall we? Deaths -nil. Wars started - nil. Detained personnel on the way home - 15. Countries with lightly-miffed pride - 1. Probably the best result we could hope for in the situation. Until the facts become clearer, it is premature and, frankly, offensive to start bandying about blame either at the party or,as some have done, those in theatre in support.

[MrFlibble]

Im immensely relieved that we've got those sailors and marines out, and without firing a shot either. Could have gone much, much worse...

Lets just hope that the RN's Rules of Engagement, and the boundary definition of Irans waters, are clarified to try and avoid this in the future...

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Our lads (and girly) are free and come home with a Borat suit and GLC tracksuit each. That really is a gift to the West.

Fantastic news that they're out and looking forward to the debrief. Hopefully they weren't treated quite as badly as last time. They all have a great bar story to tell and the Lt and Capt have an excuse to wear terylene in the Mess.

:ok:

[ORAC]

Fantastic news that they're out Not yet.

BBC: ......The Foreign Office confirmed on Wednesday night that the crew were in good health, but were "still with the Iranians". They are expected to be formally handed over to the British embassy early on Thursday.

[Load Toad]

How do we know they were not instructed - if held as 'guests' of the Iranians because of some eventuality - to act as pleasant as possible. Surely (as we are not at war with Iran) it would make sense to do anything possible to avoid doing anything to inflame the situation? For themselves at least it would make sense to show good manners....for the country and the situation in that part of the world at the moment and with respect to all the other services having to operate in that area it wouldn't be the wisest move to cause things to kick off would it?

Nice image isn't it - the stoic Tommy / Jack Tar whatever, bloodied and bandaged refusing to play the part in the Nazi propaganda - marching into captivity unbowed and giving a surreptitious victory sign....

The reality is winding up the Iranians isn't clever and we live in times where the enemy is not necessarily a guy in a black shirt sporting a swastika.

It's long past 'Don't tell them Pike' unfortunately and a little more cleverness is needed. I'm glad they are going back and safe.

[James Leite]

In the eyes of the world nothing short of brilliant. The Iranians seem to have embraced "absit invidia" which in diplomatic speak amounts to Iran ten United Kingdom zero.

James

[L J R]

15 guys and gals doing their thankless job released - Fantastic. Who cares about the politics! or the propaganda etc.... Only the press seem to.


Full Stop.

[parabellum]

What utter cr@p Mr Leite! No apology forthcoming from Britain and Iran realised they couldn't justify detaining these fifteen sailors any longer.

[ORAC]

Let it lie....

The UK is not at war with Iran, it is not even, at a national level, in conflict with Iran.

Iran is, at many levels, in conflict within itself. Whilst the Revolutionary Guard and the religious fundamentalists ma wish conflict, the rest do not. Strangely, a recent poll showed more in Iran in favour of the USA than in Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia etc...

The facile may be believe we lost face, the reports from inside even Iran I have seen show that even their own populace show we have not, they blame their own extremists.

I repeat, let it lie, especially in response to trolls.....

[ORAC]

BBC: British sailors on their way home

The 15 Royal Navy crew held captive by Iran are flying home after being freed by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a "gift" to the UK. They left Tehran Airport at about 0800 local time (0530 BST) on a British Airways flight bound for Heathrow.

[West Coast]

"In the eyes of the world nothing short of brilliant"
I just don't see that. Far from it, I see Iran as the loser in this whole episode.
If simply capturing innocents, parading them around till you reach some point of diminishing return and then outfitting them in off the rack suits (where's the tie btw) is brilliant, then we need to review definitions.
It can only get worse from here if the detained arrive back home with some nasty stories of their time as guests of the state.....
I would be interested in why you think it was brilliant as I truly don't understand why you view it that way.
ORAC
I believe some degree of the population (here and in the UK)truly believe it was a victory for Iran because the UK didn't assume a more muscular posture. Not simply trolling, not even in favor of Iran.

[MaroonMan4]

Set 18,
I can understand your childlike (Boys Own) inquisitive nature and without being rude we all too have asked many of the questions that you ask and from a quiet personal perspective review and critique all of the news media footage.
But if a Serving person having attended some of the excellent courses on offer to us Service individuals you will also be aware that ANY discussion on this subject may place those that heaven forbid maybe in this situation in the future at risk.
If your thirst for knowledge is a military one, then best book yourself on a refresher course as I am sure that those involved with the debrief will do a thorough task and extract all of the information that will inform both policy and procedures for future captives.
Be careful of the 'Beadwindow' my friend and suggest 'Zip Lip'!

[airborne_artist]

SET - the purpose of RTI is to prevent useful information being acquired by the enemy. Twenty-four hours is the accepted critical period.

The RN and RM captives were not engaged on an offensive op - they were carrying out a UN sanctioned inspection. HMS Cornwall was not engaged on any active mission against Iran, so the captives had nothing to give away.

Hence any answers they gave to questioning could not be of any risk to their shipmates, so there was no need to resist. What had they to gain by being un-cooperative? Nothing, except the possibility of prolonging the misery for all.

And yes, I do know what I'm talking about, and I'm very glad I never did it for real.

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

Of course, they have many reasons to celebrate after their ordeal...now their pay can re-start.....:E

[James Leite]

parabellum;

You either dont know about or you have forgotten about the spyship USS Pueblo. The North Koreans did not bother to justify keeping the american interlopers locked up for a long time and considering the 15 were where they should not have been then they must be considered as interlopers too. The Iranians could have just as easily done the same thing.

West Coast;

Iran's actions imply " we are the good guys " and the others " the bad guys " At no cost to themselves the world sits up and takes notice. Maybe not brilliant but very very close to it.

James.

[Jimlad1]

More importantly we do not know what psychological pressures they were exposed to in order to co-operate. For all we know just off camera there was a squad of unshaven IRGC types brandishing rifles and looking menacing. I know how the IRGC treated the 04 captives, and frankly I think they probably applied similar pressures this time round. Given the choice between co-operating, or playing the hero and maybe facing a life sentence or execution (both possibilities based on what the regime said early on), then I know what I'd do.
I find the idea of some armchair admirals on the internet pontificating about "how I'd have done it" contributes as much to this debate as a chocolate kettle. We weren't there, we don't know what pressures they were under and until we do we cannot criticise their actions without knowing the whole story.

[johnny99]

James,

Any chance you can tap dance as well?

[mystic_meg]

They left Tehran Airport at about 0800 local time (0530 BST) on a British Airways flight bound for Heathrow.

..Just as well they haven't got any luggage then...

[Bright-Ling]

Set - your nice and fluffy first diatribe does in no way detract or negate the utter cr4p that you have spouted since.

I don't care if you are Bravo 2 Zero/007 whoever. These 15 were not old hand SF types. Initially, I too wondered why they were being so "we love Iran" in their last interview. Then stop and think. Until I touched down in good ol' blighty I would have said nothing - in case the sneeky buggers changed the rules.

As said, what pressure were they put under to say all this. It was cleverly stage managed by Iran, you have to admit, but at least they are almost home.

Of course, waves of attack helicopters/missiles and threats of war would have been so much better.

Let us not forget all the images out of the middle east of hostages never seen again, those filmed being killed and published for the whole ME to see.

These 15 were doing boarding patrols, which, in my mind, is clearly very risky but not a role that I would refrain from talking about slightly. Souting abou tthe amount of Daewoo's on board would not have compromised the UK nation.

Think on fella. Sorry they disappointed you. You clearly have no self preservation.

:ugh:

[The Swinging Monkey]

Set,
I don't care a jot that they did or said what they did. As far as I'm concerned, they did the right thing and remained safe and well and didn't have the crap beaten out of them for being 'rufty-tufty' and all that 'name, rank, number etc' rubbish

To all 15 I send my very best wishes and congratulate them all on keeping their cool and not going off on one. Well done to you all.
TSM

[sharmine]

set

quote 'None of them refused a change of clothes in order to stay in their own uniform':ugh:

How do you know that the Embassy didn't provide the clothes? Might be a good idea after wearing the same ones for nearly 2 weeks and then having travel in them.

Safe trip home lads and lass.:D

Sharmine

[GPMG]

I did a some RTI training whilst I was in the Marines, so at least a few of the the 15 'may' have known some of the procedure. However as has been pointed out in previous posts I doubt the resitance to white noise, stress positions and worse would have been waranted. It was a UN affair, Iran are not our enemies yet and I don't think that main aim was to play along and get out. The facts will come out and I'm sure that our poeple will be fully justified in what they did.

The interviews were with a cheeky grin fixed on the face and the letters were copied word for word with all of the bad grammer intact. I think it is obvious to anyone in the west that these were forced confessions which just makes Iran look worse.

SET I think you should have waited untill after the debriefs and the official news releases before questioning our forces integrity. And since when has refusing to strip down to nothing and get into a boiler suit etc been RTI? If your captors want you to were 1 DMS, 1 flip flop and a wedding dress you can either do it or have it done to you.

I hope that the Captains career wont be shadowed by this mess, it's happened many times when an excellent officers career can be stalled through circumstances that were of no fault of his own.

[forget]

I lived in Tehran for two years. Bl**dy awful place, but very hospitable people. All 15 captives were relative youngsters and, after the initial man-handling of capture, I'd imagine they were treated very well, as temporary guests. That's what they've told us and I don't think you'll hear differently when they get their feet on the ground.

[cornish-stormrider]

Glad they are all safe and on they way home. Good Work lads and lasses! And to all those muppets bleating on about RTI and saying they should have resisted more, WTF would you have done when asked to "Say this or we will gang rape the lass........."

There are any number of things that could have been done to them, its not like they were out to assassinate someone or blow up a ball bearing factory now is it??

They performed what they had to do as a unit to get themselves all home safe. Job done.

Now stop your fecking moaning and SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, oh and as for that spam journo that was gobbing off about our troops lack of morale and balls etc, one name......Johnson Beharry (scuse any mis-spelling no slur intended). You think the recipients of the VC has no balls??

[anotherthing]

James Leite

At the risk of biting - you either have a lot of inside info not available to the rest of us, or more likely you are talking out of your derriere.

Your last post:



You either dont know about or you have forgotten about the spyship USS Pueblo. The North Koreans did not bother to justify keeping the american interlopers locked up for a long time and considering the 15 were where they should not have been then they must be considered as interlopers too. The Iranians could have just as easily done the same thing.


Ifs and buts......

Who said the UK Forces were where they should not have been i.e. inside Iranian territorial waters?

Oh my mistake, Iran said it, so it must be true :ugh:

The Iranians could have just as easily done the same thing as you say i.e. keep them hostage for much longer, but hey, they didn't.

Why?

Us mere mortals will never know the real reason... posturing by both the Iranian State and to an extent B-liar will prevent any story from coming out that can be believed 100%.

The fact is they have been released.

No military threats from the UK needed. Was that a weak approach??

I doubt it, what could we realistically threaten Iran with? We are in several theatres of operations at the moment, our forces are stretched, how could we possibly have backed up any military threat with any degree of menace?

To threaten someone without the ability to back it up would be foolish.

We hear stories every other week about how are forces are being stretched - do you honestly think that Iran is such a back-water that they are not aware of this?

B-liar and his cronies have seen to our military demise and continue to do so - this episode should be a salient lesson to Tone that if he wants to play with the big boys he needs to invest in our forces - but I wager that will not happen.

Rest assured that whilst diplomatic channels were being used, UK assets would have been trying to collate intelligence on exactly where and how the sailors were being held. If this had become a protracted affair, it is more likely that clandestine methods would have been used instead of conventional - but the very nature of the word clandestine means we will never know what was going on in the background.

Or would you rather we just barged in willy nilly and got lots of our forces killed in a half cock attempt at a rescue?

Some countries would shoot first ask questions later, but that is not, and never has been the UK style.

The reason we still use that style is because it works.

So, the guys (and gal) have landed at Heathrow what, honestly, has Iran gained from this?

How can you even think that the world now thinks Iran are the 'good guys'??

Best you get back to cloud cuckoo land - I for one am just glad that they have returned safely - that fact alone is, in my books, a damned good result.

[sense1]

James Leite......

Your 1st post on this thread should have been preceeded with the letters IMHO ('In My Humble Opinion' if anyone is unsure!)!


And, in MY humble opinion, the reality is the complete opposite of what you have stated. Iran can play its games and show us how good it is at theatrics all it likes, but what they pulled with nabbing our personnel sure doesn't help them reduce the likelihood of getting whacked by the US and its buddies sometime in the future! :ooh:

So was it a 'victory'?? IMHO, thier leadership just pi**ed the West off a little more! They got 2 new boats though, so not a complete waste of time! I wonder if we'l get those back?! :hmm:

[anotherthing]

Sense1

Maybe Iran will sell them to Scotland if the UK splits up.... be about right numbers for the Scottish Navy!!

(That's one to run, one to keep for spares)

[sky9]

A previous thread directed the reader to flashearth.com Using the Mocrosoft vitual earth we were able to get a very good sat. photo of the waterway. The photo now seems to have been degraded in the area in dispute.

[7x7]

And to all those muppets bleating on about RTI and saying they should have resisted more, WTF would you have done when asked to "Say this or we will gang rape the lass........."Which is exactly the argument those labelled (among other things) "old fuddy duddy reactionaries" were making when women first demanded to be put into positions in the military that might put them in harm's way.

My post a few days ago on the Jessica Starmer thread asking whether some might draw this very conclusion was promptly deleted by the moderator on the main board.

Is it a subject no one dares discuss?

A bit of a proverbial 'elephant in the room' everyone chooses to ignore?

Gents (and ladies), don't shoot the messenger. Let's discuss the issue rather than abuse me as the three or four respondents to my original post did. I know that if I was the senior officer of a group of service personnel taken by a protagonist (note that word) in circumstances similar to those where the 15 were taken, the extra burden of having a female among my 'men' would be one I'd rather do without - for the very reason quoted above.

It might not be politically correct, but in my case, it's a fact, and I'd be a liar if I tried to say otherwise.

[Tigs2]

The lads and lassy have done a great job, all back safe ...Perfick!:D :D :D
To all of the armchair SF people who sit there claiming they could be sat on razor blades and have their nuts sawn off with a nail file before they even whimpered.............. I dont think so:= :=
Please remember there is a lot more goes on to the breakdown of the human psyche than traditional whipping and racking. I was on an aircraft two days ago (as pax) and watched the Manchurian Candidate. Spoooky!

[PICKS135]

From the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6530801.stm

The pertinent bit is

Chief of Defence Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, said the crew looked "very happy" and "in good shape".

"They did exactly as they should have done from start to finish in this entire incident and we're extremely proud of them," he added.

If its good enough for him, then it should be good enough for the rest of us.


Welcome home people

[MungoP]

Let's get this in proportion here... the reaction against Sets original post is diabolical... These sailors are not heroes... they behaved probably like most people would behave who were not part of Britains defence forces... rather like a bunch of people taken hostage while on holiday.. yes.. they did the right thing to save themselves from ill treatment... and no evidence of ill treatment was visible. Far from being "Bloody and Bandaged" they didnt even look tired or stressed so why give interviews stating that they had strayed into Iranian waters ? RTI has no relevence here... they were not in captivity long enough for it to have been employed before giving the interviews...

Interesting historical fact that throughout history our peacetime 'warriors' often do not fair well when things hot up and a whole new breed comes to the fore... As for silly statements about women being treatened with gang-rape unless.... etc etc.. if this is likely to have any effect then don't send them into the front line... if they want to be there then they have to take their chances. Like the rest of us.


AS for old Jock Strap... as the classic phrase goes..."well, he would say that wouldn't he"... wouldn't want funding cut for the armed forces.

And no.. I'm not at present sitting in an arm chair.

[SET 18]

Mungo, thanks for that. I was beginning to think that I was completely off the wall in every contributor's mind. All I was asking for was some sort of military behaviour from some military people, or so I thought.

I wonder how many people who were immediate in their criticism and abuse of me have sat where you are now (physically) and done the same job that you are doing now. (like I have) Don't know your aircraft type, but have been detached to your location (either of the possibles) many times.

[barnstormer1968]

In some ways it has been hard to read some of the above post's.
As for me, I really disliked seeing any of the fifteen appearing to be pally with any Iranians. As with all of the rest of you, I have no idea how they have been treated. BUT, there is a big difference in being treated nice, and being able to walk away, and being treated nice, and then your HOST can at any time, put you in prison, or kill you.
It bothered me to see them, as They appeared as "pawns" in someone else's battle of ego's.
It's not often that any of us Ppruner's praise our own Prime minister, let alone Iran's!. In my past, I have been very scared (during military service), sometimes justified, sometimes not. But watching those fifteen on tv, i was very aware of all this being a game. That we arn't at war with Iran. there was no need to stick with the big four. and lastly, these were the real people that mattered, they are collectively, mum's, son's, dad's. I wanted them back with no death's, injuries or raised tensions. I am very very pleased to see them home, and my only remaining worry, is that they could possibly feel they have let themselves or their families down (especially if they get to converse with folks like "set" etc.). Well I think they did bl**dy great, and should be very proud of their role. Stuff RTI, or SEERI, these folks had no training in "ego maniac warmongering" either.
I'm sorry to have ranted on here, but this has got to me, I'm sick of people telling others to act tough, just so they can feel good. "SET" even if you had been captured yourself, and held, and resisted bitterly. You still could not say you would be the same the second time, could you.

[toddbabe]

"I would have thought that even a basic knowledge of current affairs would have told these guys that there was nothing that the Iranians could have done to them without incurring the world and his wife's ire. I would have thought that this might have convinced them of the unlikelihood of it occurring."

Set 18 what exactly do you think we could have done about it? they held all the cards and we knew it! neiter the Americans and certainly not us are in a position to go storming over the border guns blazing in angry reaction to anything that they may have done.
Iran knows fine well that we the west haven't got the stomach politically or publically for another ding dong that we can't possibly win in the middle east.
You say about basic knowledge with regards to current affairs, well these Service personnel demonstrated that they had plenty! they knew fine well that nobody in the West was ever going to take what they were saying seriously! they also new that Middle Eastern Culture is deeply offended if you turn down gifts, food or hospitality and by doing so would only make their stay more difficult.
They were also savvy enough to realise that their families at home would be watching, worriedly looking into the screens to see how they were coping, by eating, shaving and dressing in the gifts given to them their poor relatives at least knew that they were safe and well.
Whilst the Iranians weren't ever going to harm them for fear of complete isolation, the Sailors and marines conducted themselves perfectly well from what little we saw, your conduct after capture training that you have done so much of, will you remember tell you that no two situations are the same and that there are indeed many ways in which to skin a cat in order to "survive with dignity"

[Pontius Navigator]

SET18

unless you are familiar with Conduct after Capture or Resistance to Interrogation techniques, it's probably better not to comment at all on those matters. Regardless of what training these personnel had or had not received, those in the know realize exactly what they are going through and why they are behaving the way they are.

And if you are familiar with Conduct after Capture or Resistance to Interrogation techniques, you will know better than to comment at all on those matters.

I DO have a lot of R to I training, thank you.

I remain disappointed than none of them refused to capitulate. Servicemen and women are told in no uncertain terms about what awaits them when they go to that part of the world.

Are you current, and your point?

MaroonMan But if a Serving person having attended some of the excellent courses on offer to us Service individuals you will also be aware that ANY discussion on this subject may place those that heaven forbid maybe in this situation in the future at risk.

Spot on.

Mungo, you may be further east, you may have had CAC training but I can assure you that your CAC would be quite different to theirs. You, after all, are in-country at the express request of the host government.

[Colonal Mustard]

See. slight thread hijack but THATS how you deal with idiots
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_6530000/newsid_6531100?redirect=6531151.stm&news=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1&nbram=1&nbwm=1


wish this govt had been more robust with Iran though.....also is it me or did the uniform appear Brand new out of the box so to speak, would have thought it better to leave em in the suits meself

[HEDP]

Pontius

~Mungo, you may be further east, you may have had CAC training but I can assure you that your CAC would be quite different to theirs. You, after all, are in-country at the express request of the host government.~

I think that the 15 were in country at the specific request, or was it command, of the host nation!

Somehow I dont think the matelots and marines would have been expecting to be captured when crewing one of her Majesties finest gunboats.

HEDP

[Pontius Navigator]

so? .

[SET 18]

Pontius, first quote: not mine.

Second: Yes I am. My point is that an int brief given before entering theatre would have updated these guys on all aspects of the region. Iran is not an overly nice place (because of its regime), but I am confident that they would have known (as much as anyone can) that there is just no way that they would have come to any physical harm.

Although the Iranians were very bold, they are not stupid. Seriously, did you ever doubt that this whole episode would ever end any differently? I cannot see why they did not know that they were being used politically, and their willingness to be so only hurt their own country's standing further.

I know lots of you are now going to be queueing up for a pop at me but that is how I see it.

[Pontius Navigator]

Set, fair point, see PM.

[Pontius Navigator]

Forget I lived in Tehran for two years. Bl**dy awful place, but very hospitable people Exercise Umber mean anything?:)

[airborne_artist]

"UK captives tell of ill treatment

Royal Navy personnel seized by Iran were blindfolded, bound and held in isolation during their 13 days in captivity, the crew have said.
They were lined up while weapons were cocked, making them "fear the worst", two of the 15 crew revealed.
The crew were told if they did not admit they were in Iranian waters when captured that they faced seven years in prison, a press conference heard. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6533069.stm

Fancy retracting your original statement now, SET - it wasn't such a walk in the park, after all, was it?

[poorwanderingwun]

Airborne etc...

Iranian treatment of RN personnel was disgusting, despicable and inexcusable behavior... not to be tolerated and well outside of all acceptable conventions...

So... never mind about SET's comments.... What do you suggest we do about the Iranians ?

[toddbabe]

Leave them and their middle eastern friends to it! get the **** out of there, let Israel do it's own thing and come home!
Put it all down as a bad mistake that we can learn from and steer clear of in the future.
If bush wants to have a pop at some idiots in a god forsaken ****hole with no objectives and no chance of winning if we did have any then let him do it on his own, it's about time we woke up and realised that the world is a far more dangerous place for all America's meddling.
Regime change? I can think of Two that need changing significantly more urgently than any out East!

[Jackonicko]

As a pure civilian, I was not at all surprised to see them being friendly and polite and co-operative, for all of the reasons outlined above by all of those qualified to comment. (Not at war, likely pressure being exerted, R2I for 24 hours only, etc.)

I was, however, more surprised to see their co-operation extending to admissions of 'guilt' which were always likely to cause the UK embarrassment and difficulty.

Let me reiterate - no criticism of the 15 is intended or implied - I simply don't have the knowledge or experience to be qualified to offer it.

But I'd have thought that it would be possible to co-operate, to praise the Iranians for their hospitality, warmth, welcome, understanding, etc. and politely but firmly refuse to talk about the position where they were picked up along the lines "I'm not the navigator, but we were sure that we were in Iraqi waters. A mistake or technical error is always possible, but there was no deliberate intrusion."

And I suspect that the vast bulk of the country will be expressing or feeling the same sort of feelings.

[Pontius Navigator]

Jacko, I simply don't have the knowledge or experience to be qualified to offer it. You said it.

The primary job of a captive is to stay alive. To do that you do whatever is necessary.

Remember Faye had been isolated and told that everyone else had been sent home. Remember also she used the word 'apparently'. Similarly the TV 'confession' used weasle words.

Th emost remarkable thing was the dissent amongst pprune 'experts' or were they agent provocateurs, rubbishing the Royal Navy, MOD and Government take on it.

"Our men were 1.7 nm inside Iraqi waters."

"Oh no they weren't. The Iranians had it right, the GPS was faked. The GPS was on the wrong datum. The charts used by the MOD were not WG84. Who believes the Prime Minister. Margaret Beckett . . . "

Now imagine that the captives had been shown extracts from pprune? Your friends think you were wrong. Your friends think you shouldn't have talked etc.

Mmm.

[airborne_artist]

Watch the Capt RM's interview on BBC - he said he was careful to qualify what he said on the TV "confession" - it all makes sense, but he got all his guys out alive and unharmed, and that has to be the main aim.

[ericferret]

History gives us an alternative.

Private John Moyse of the East Kent Regiment was captured by the Chinese during the Second Opium War 1860. He was ordered to kneel in front of the local Mandarin and refused. He would kneel to no chinaman.

His treatment and behaviour was set down for all time in the poem by Sir Francis Hastings Doyle "Private of the Buffs"

Nearly forgot to tell you what happened to him.
They kicked the sh*t out of him, chopped off his head and threw his body on a dung heap.

I'm just glad to see our men and lady safely home.
Heroics have a time and place. This wasn't it.

[Tombstone]

IMHO,

these 15 personnel are not the people we should be are focussing on as they are home safe and sound. excellent news, job done.

Lets not forget that there are 6 families grieving tonight after the worst week in 2 years for the British forces in Iraq.

My thoughts are with all of those families tonight.

[3 bladed beast]

Set18 '' All I was asking for was some sort of military behaviour from some military people, or so I thought.''

Yes mate, I totally agree with you. What I would really have liked would be for those marines and sailors to have fought tooth and nail against those wimpy Iranian National Guard, resisting them at all costs.

THEN, when tortured and locked in solitary confinement for months on end, you would be able to say ''well done, they did it for Queen and Country, and of course Tony Blair.''

I'm sure their families, you know Set 18, the people that REALLY matter to them, would have appreciated that. :D

[nigegilb]

3BB you forgot to add that they were lightly armed in poorly defended inflatable boats with no top cover and no mother ship in sight. They would all have been slaughtered for Queen and Country and a Govt that refuses to resource its armed forces but likes to go to war. You are bang on, their families are happy tonight if not a little shocked by the treatment their loved ones have received. Meanwhile some incredibly young people have had their lives tragically cut short in this senseless war in Iraq, including a 19 year old nurse who was only there to help others. Without a shadow of a doubt these 15 sailors and marines made the right decision, as for the politicians who sent them there, they can swing.

[OilCan]

Jacko

"embarrassment and difficulty" was the objective - ergo the "admissions of 'guilt' " was what they were after.

Had our guys not (apparently) played along, they would not have been on the tele and would probably still be there.

...and the "vast bulk of the country" would have forgotten about them by now.:(

Best wishes to them - Well done. :D

[ChristopherRobin]

here's another view (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=da3_1175877575) from US Medal of Honour winner Jack Jacobs.

[mystic_meg]

from US Medal of Honour winner Jack Jacobs
Well, that video clip speaks volumes for the difference in mindsets and culture between us and our Colonial cousins - that this chiseller had the nerve to call the RM captain a 'meathead' speaks volumes more about him (Jacobs) than the Captain. I would suggest that had they, (the 15) followed the 'advice' of this dork, then we would at the very least have been seeing 15 lifeless bodybags returning from Tehran.
It completely, and conveniently, seems to have escaped this w@nker's attention that the 15 were heavily outnumbered in both terms of numbers and firepower.
Mr Jacobs, do us all a favo(u)r and stick your Medal where the sun don't shine
:mad:

[Pontius Navigator]

What can one say?

[3 bladed beast]

nigegilb

'Poorly defended inflatable boats'???? But surely they had their SA80 rifles to use against the heavy machine guns on the several Iranian boats!!!

I'm very glad that they are home, having co-operated and done whatever was needed to make sure that they stay alive and come home to their families.

This government needs to wake up to the fact that we are in a 'war' that is never ever going to be won. Just look at the reaction and the glee of the Iraqi locals over the very recent loss in Basra. And this is a place in Iraq that is supposed to be more friendly to UK forces.

Every single day, there are innocent Iraqi civilians having limbs blown off, losing loved ones (and thus creating martyrs) and we are meant to be helping!! Almost every day you hear of a coalition soldier being killed, or wounded. This is a mess, a nightmare and it's simply not going to get better.

We have screwed up the Middle East and let them down so many times in the last century. Now we fight Bushs' war. I can see no end.

[Hugh Spencer]

Just been listening to Jack Jacobs before writing my small contribution. As some of you may know, I was flying with Bomber Command in WW2 so, although I never was in the same kind of situation as the sailors and marines were, there are very troubling thoughts going through my mind. At the moment I don't want to comment on their actions after being arrested but what led up to it. If the naval authorities are going to continue to say that procedures before their arrest were correct, I feel there must be some adjustment made to them. Too far away from the mother ship for it to help, insufficient watch by radar(?) to identify impending trouble and no cover by the ship's helicopter. I feel this incident dishonours the past when this nation has had to deal with tortuous circumstances with personnel at great risk. Without having to be 'gung-ho' in these dire our circumstances, this is not the way matters have been dealt with in the past. We are not acting as a responsible nation towards reprehensible behaviour towards our service personnel. Australia is appalled!

[AC Ovee]

Our people are back home, safe and sound, and they have told the World the truth. I'm hoping that our government now does something to remind the Iranian government (and other like minded people) that they don't mess with us and get away with it. I found it interesting that they gave a press conference so quickly after they all said that they wanted space and privacy. Maybe the government wants us to know what happened to our people and get our sympathy before we take some timely military (re)action.

[barnstormer1968]

Mr Jacobs, you were completely right, when at all out full scale war with Iran. we should have fired first, killed them all, and gone home for tea and stickies....... Oh yes that's right, we arn't at war, and have ROE, what a To**er he is. I hate it that someone like this idiot has made me post twice, but I notice he didn't mention the U.S's successes against Iran, Oh that's because there are none. I am no U.S. hater, and I'm sure that (like most of us) Brit, U.S. or whatever countries servicemen all seem to have some sort of bond with each other, it seems it's us verses our politicians
For the record: After Col Charlie Beckwith formed Delta force (which he modelled on our special air service), and later mounted Op Eagle Claw, it was bad luck that had us all looking at beheaded U.S. sf troops on TV. And I have nothing but pity on the U.S. personnel who were recently "snatched" and murdered from within their own camp in the sand. All I can say about total morons like Mr Jacobs (my apologies to brave and decent American's) is when your cheque clears for your interview, donate it to a service charity
MR JACOBS, I HOPE YOU ARE PROUD OF YOUR MEDAL, AND WON IT DURING A WAR, BUT HERES SOME ADVICE FOR YOU, IT'S IN CAPITAL LETTER'S AS YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY A BIT SLOW. THE NEXT TIME YOU ARE STOPPED BY POLICE FOR A ROUTINE MATTER, DON'T DIE RESISTING FOOD, WATER OR COMFORT, JUST SAY "YES I WAS DOING 31 IN A 30 ZONE. JUST TRYING TO HELP YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE IN WAR AND PEACE YOU TW*T

[Roland Pulfrew]

Lets not forget that there are 6 families grieving tonight after the worst week in 2 years for the British forces in Iraq.


Tombstone.

Shouldn't that be 7 families. Let's not forget the family of the Kuwaiti interpreter who was also killed:(

[rlsbutler]

Pretending that this is a civilised discourse, I offer a small vote for Set18's point of view.

[sirsaltyhelmet]

For comment on the nice Col Jacobs

[email protected] ([email protected])

[h73kr]

"Pretending that this is a civilised discourse, I offer a small vote for Set18's point of view."

...and I have to say I agree with the both of you! Regardless of the situation, co-ercion, duress etc they may have been under, my over riding impression was they came across as having the demeanour of a group of schoolkids on a trip away. Sorry, but that's what watching them reminded me of.

[obgraham]

Col Jacobs holds the highest military honor the US can bestow. Equivalent to the VC. He is saluted by all other military personnel no matter their rank.

But that doesn't prevent him from issuing ill informed and ridiculous statements.

On the other hand, I've read worse right here on pprune.

[h73kr]

"Shouldn't that be 7 families. Let's not forget the family of the Kuwaiti interpreter who was also killed:("

...indeed, and while we're at it also the thousands of Iraqi families grieving on a daily basis. I know it doesn't count so much because they're not British, but hey! :rolleyes:

[Roland Pulfrew]

"Pretending that this is a civilised discourse, I offer a small vote for Set18's point of view."

...and I have to say I agree with the both of you! Regardless of the situation, co-ercion, duress etc they may have been under, my over riding impression was they came across as having the demeanour of a group of schoolkids on a trip away. Sorry, but that's what watching them reminded me of.

Agreed. I wasn't there. I don't know what they went through. But as aformer R2I Instructor I had to wonder what they were briefed to do. Schoolkids on an awayday seems to fit the bill (bar one or two of them). I am afraid that I can understand where our colonial cousins are coming from, some are a bit OTT, but aren't we just being a bit precious? Some of the recent footage did not present HM Forces in a good light. Full Stop.

[h73kr]

However, and it's an honest question, does the modern young serviceman or woman really need to go on a course before he can be trusted to act in an adult fashion in a stressed situation? I'm not talking about co-operation or not with your captors as an issue, just presenting a more 'adult' demeanour, isn't it just common sense?

[stickmonkeytamer]

Who is parading these individuals in the circus ring now? Surley this should not be happening... They should be de-briefed then sent back to do their jobs. Which one will be on with Richard and Judy first???

SMT

[Roland Pulfrew]

Nige

I have a lot of respect for you and what you have tried to do for the C130 fleet, but......

[QUOTE][The guys being trained for theatre specific techniques were told that big four only, would likely get them killed in no time at all./QUOTE]

We are not at war with Iran. There was no way that they were going to be executed.

Now I am not so niave to believe that they were not tortured, or subject to interrogation of various forms. But the way they came over, in comparison to those from Gulf War 1, was as a bunch of schoolkids on a school trip (notal). There was no R! It will be interesting to see how the RN reacts to R2I and ROE after this debacle.

[navibrator]

Don´t get wound up by some has-been Col from the US. While we might respect what veterans did in their day, many, like him, are not able to adjust to modern military operations. Would he really have acted differently if picked up by Soviets near a border in the Cold War? Of course not. Did his countrymen start shooting when the US aircraft was captured by the Chinese? No. Perhaps if he applied his attention to some of the activities of his own forces in certain countries, we might be able to win their hearts and minds instead of p***ing them off!

[Wiley]

The difference is: the good colonel is speaking from the point of view of someone who is at war with Iran, (as to all intents and purposes, every regular viewer of US Fox News is). The young servicemen who found themselves looking down the barrels of the Revolutionary Guards' guns don't - (or didn't) - consider themselves at war with Iran.

I find myself hoping that the senior officers who put the 15 into the impossible position they found themselves in suffer very close scrutiny of their actions. And I don't mean just the ship's captain - I mean way above that, right up to those wearing suits rather than uniforms.

I also find myself wondering what some of the enlisted men, particularly the Royal Marines, will be saying to their debriefing officers about their reactions to the order to lay down their arms.

[Geehovah]

I've sent my comments to NBC

Without the credibility of his honour, COL Jacobs could be dismissed as a fool. Unbelievable.

[sue pralux]

Wiley,

Couldnt agree more, but we both know that won't happen to the REAL perpetrators of this. As cash for Honours seems to be proving, they are way above the Law!!!!

[FJJP]

Some years ago, a B52 pilot visited my base to talk about his experiences in Vietnam as a POW, giving us first hand advice on the subject of resistance to interrogation.

He was quite clear. Information was the key to staying alive TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY. He said that he fed them snippets of perishable, out-of-date info which meant that instead of getting 20 lashes, he only got 10.

A Marine pilot who was with him in the camp resisted completely, and spent the rest of his life with a broken mind and body in a VA mental hospital. Dying before he reached his 50th birthday.

Anybody who believes that the Iranians would not tortue or even kill our servicemen is naive. This team did exactly the right thing - they cooperated fully to achieve the aim of returning unharmed. Now they can go back and be ready to 'kick ass' as our American cousins might say.

[Jack Aubrey]

I wonder whether some are missing the point(s)?
The mentality of people in that part of the world, it seems to me, having met many but not travelled there (happily), is rather different to the European or US.
This incident shows that they do not fear us, that means that they do not respect us, and that means big trouble.
The other overwhelming point in my eyes was what on earth were their commanders doing allowing them in to public view. Our armed forces and MoD now seem to have the collective wit and wisdom of Jade Goody. Was it on direct orders by Tone 'I would do anything for a soundbite' Straightkindaguy?
I hope that if I were in that situation I would have walked off that aeroplane naked and I would be looking for an Iranian up whose jacksy to stuff those bloody pistachios.

[BenThere]

I'm happy they are home, too. But...

I would like to have seen some little tidbit of resistance as they did what they were told to do by the Iranians; some visual discomfort with their seemingly casual breaking of faith with their country. What I saw was easy acceptance of their staged confessions of theirs and Britain's guilt for all the world to witness.

I don't know what your Code of Conduct requires, but under ours, I would have some consternation upon my return in this circumstance as I answer for my behavior while in captivity. The RN and Marines have something to be a tad sheepish about in discussing this incident in the future.

Keeping it in perspective, though, the real criminals here are the Iranians who created the situation in the first place.

[ZH875]

The Navy/Marines are safe, good news.

We do not know what (illegal) situations they went through.

The main question now is:

Have we got the boats back?

[Pontius Navigator]

I would like to have seen some little tidbit of resistance

An the Iranians would have told us about their resistance?

Remember the broadcasts were not immediate. They told Faye she was the only one retained in Iran and the rest had been freed. What sort of pysops is that?

You saw only a couple of televised appearances (many times) towards the end. They resisted.

[cooheed]

Indeed PN. They would have been briefed prior to deployment, as all are required to. They followed 'best practice' for want of a better phrase.

[richlear]

I was unfortunate enough to see the US CNN report of the release of these guys. In general, the US TV coverage has been the typical sensationalist reporting one expects from a news "show".

There have been several interviews with US "experts" and the thrust has been along the lines of "US servicemen are highly trained..blah blah blah...would not have revealed ANY information or given "confessions"

Mind you - they also billed Jock Stirrup as a "British Royal Marines"

[Green Flash]

I thought the captured Bristish Serviceman was obliged, by whatever means possible, to rejoin Her Majestys Forces. Granted, we are not at war with Iran. But there are no prizes for rejoining HM Forces feet first. Nice to have you back folks.:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Green Flash, nicely put. When I first read your post I thought I was in for one of the tunnel stories.

That is a difference from WW2 as well. There the captive was only a few hundred miles from home on the same continent with a physical appearance similar to his captors. In Vietnam the escapee or evader was at a slight disadvantage to quote "at 6ft 2in and 220lbs I looked a little different from the little yellow slope eyed bastards."

In Vietnam there was also a degree of tactical intelligence that was not time critical and hence worth preserving. In Afg the information would be very time critical. In Iraq it would simply be jump into an orange suit and lose your head - if you had time to change :(.

The Big 3 and then Big 4 were for POW in conventional, symetric warfare. One of the POW in the Falklands War (I won't mention his name) had not had RTI training despite being in a prone to capture job. Nor had he assimilated all the available war films. He was 'interrogated' subtly by an expert who passed himself off as an aircrew mate and extracted rather more information than he would had he used strong arm tactics. The Big 4 would have been appropriate in this case but he had not been trained.

[cooheed]

Just remember guys, it's a sensitive subject so be careful what you say

[cooheed]

And Deliverance, I think not..

[polecat2]

And just heard on BBC News 24 that the ex-captives will be allowed to sell their stories to the media...

Polecat

[rlsbutler]

So are they being eased out of their jobs perhaps ?

[cornish-stormrider]

Whatever happened to them over there, the only comment they ought to make on the ridiclous media spin circus that seems to dominate and pervade all aspects of our society should be......

"I have no comment to make on any matter. Thank you and goodbye"

That way they can't be misquoted or do harm to our troops and operations still ongoing, and I agree any fees should go to the funds

[navibrator]

Read The Sunday Times for "world opinion". It doesn't make good reading. I would rather NO money went to charities on the basis the stories were not told!

[poorwanderingwun]

"I have no comment to make on any matter. Thank you and goodbye"

A pity that something closer to those words couldn't have been employed while still in captivity.

[MungoP]

I think from the point of view of many, especially non-brits, it's looking something along the lines of; IRAN 15 : RN 0

[Pontius Navigator]

MungoP, on that part of the game I would agree 15-0 however on a body count I rather like the no score draw.

[knowitall]

If anyone else is unfortunate enough to be captured by the Iranians i hope to god they haven't read this thread

they may as well sell their country out if its populated by whingeing armchair commando's like you lot

[poorwanderingwun]

Knowitall..
Looking at the mungo posts ..as he said earlier... he's not in an armchair

[Pontius Navigator]

poorwanderingwun, I think we credit MungoP with being at the sharp end. I suspect he does actually have an armchair even if he is in Afg.

Hey MungoP they are not making you fly enough in Kabul these days seems you like to post a lot, will have to talk to your CD. Is that GJ by chance??

Now on the issue of salaries I have to say that yes they pay you very little, you come out on the field, find people making more, but hey if it was not for Air Serv Intl a lot of people in North America would not even know what contracts are all about.


MungoP

Location: Afghanistan
You're right... not too much flying right now plus it's a different crowd from last winter... we don't get up to the same sort of mischief... seems to be raining/snowing most days... mud mud mud, beginning to understand what trench life was like for the poor b*ggers during WW1. I seem to be spending half the day defending asi on pprune.. maybe I should become their PR man.....so... between orders for Tacos maybe you can slip me a clue as to who the fried frog is .

As you see, hot but not that hot.




B:mad: r search engines aren't they.

[forget]

MungoP said -

I think from the point of view of many, especially non-brits, it's looking something along the lines of; IRAN 15 : RN 0

MungoP 0. Pontius Nav .......... how do spell infintee? :D :D

[MungoP]

Pontius etc...

“Hot But Not That Hot...”

A fair comment...

Normally I would try not to become involved in a pointless back and forth debate but the somewhat sneering aspect of your response deserves a reply.


True we don’t draw index linked pensions and have battle honours hanging in the mess.. personally I have an enormous respect for those that do and especially for those that did and are no longer with us.

When we lost an aircraft and pilot to Taliban small arms fire it was not a ‘shot heard around the world ‘... Almost nobody outside of our small group would know of it.. the Herc that was lost a short time ago to a land mine buried on the runway at Lash Kar-Gah landed 3 minutes after one of our aircraft took off from that same runway.. yes we still operate to there and many other similar strips and I’ll be leaving here in one hour to start another days work..we operate unprotected and unarmed and as far as I know none of us even use our flack jackets even to sit on.. just too uncomfortable on a long day.

In my time operating in the Congo some of our people came under attack by rebels using that ubiquitous friend of the 3rd world the AK47. ...fortunately only one was seriously hurt ... on another occasion a pilot was badly beaten by rebels.. on several occasions I’ve been hauled out and threatened by AK toting ‘soldiers’ speaking no English or French...just Lingala.. my own reaction is alway first to smile and then laugh... this confuses them and so far they’ve always let me move on after a small ruffing up... Operating for another outfit recently I was evacuating army wounded ( Another African state) while the fighting continued... their military aircraft had been fired upon when attempting the evacuation so the theory was to send in a civilian aircraft in the hope it wouldn’t come under attack.. fortunately for myself and the pilot of another a/c the theory proved correct..Being part of an Humanitarian organisation we don’t get big bucks such as those flying fro Blackwater and Dyncorp... yes..if I could I would but I’m not a US citizen so don’t qualify...believe me, I get paid a lot less than you whatever that is and with no ‘benefits’ other than medical insurance...but the flyings the thing and I’d rather do what I do than go back to the airlines and do another ten years of schedules.

Hot but not Too Hot about sums it up... but it’s a fair way from an armchair while we’re working.

I don’t see the world divided into heroes and whimps... Rambos and Pansies... and the military and security personnel I come into contact with here and elsewhere invariably impress me as as professional guys just doing what they’re trained to do...

It’s normal to think that our military personnel are able not only to do their jobs efficiently but also that they’re conscious of being minor ambassadors for their countries... which is maybe why some of us without being too harsh were not entirely at ease with some of the statements made by these captives... remember I said some of the statements..

Stay safe.

[Pontius Navigator]

MungoP, thank you but my repsonse was not intended as a sneer. Also you did not tell me you do not have an armchair back at base when not working.

My post was to help identify you as a non-combatant and differentiate you from [B]the[B] Mungo Parkes who created a fantastic video of the Show me the way to Amarillo while serving in Iraq.

I think everything is now clear. Sorry if I apparently offended.

[MungoP]

Thanks Pontius.. and none taken..

I read an interesting statistic a while back concerning US army personnel in Vietnam... the exact numbers I don't have but it seems that something like 92% of americans in Vietnam were there to support the 8% combatants... a sobering thought... so not everyone wearing their countries' colours gets to face some angry b*stard out to kill them...

This morning I learned while in Herat that 7 people operating for one of the organisations we work with were killed yesterday in a Taliban attack... More body bags to move (Suprisingly difficult to load and unload them with dignity I always find...having only a small turbo-prop.. )... Another of the contractors we work with has lost 93 personnel in the last 3 years.

So not everyone in a uniform is in the front line... and not everyone out of uniform is safe in an armchair... My second tour here is coming to en end and I can assure you that I AM looking forward to being in an armchair... or at least up to my waist in a cold river while trying to annoy the trout.

[nigegilb]

Mungo p, we only sat on the flak jackets on approach and take off, it wasn't so uncomfortable and it made you feel a lot better. Mind you, if you are done having kids I don't think it matters so much.

Stay safe, sorry to hear your news.

NG

[Pontius Navigator]

MP,

More body bags to move (Suprisingly difficult to load and unload them with dignity I always find...having only a small turbo-prop.. )...

You may be interested to know that today's Daily Telegraph carried a news item regarding body bags in the US. Apparently they were shipped as commercial freight once Stateside. Following an outcry they will now be accorded full military honours.

Commiserations. I expect that your colleagues would not get that honour.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

See this article (http://zenhuber.*************/)by a US commentator who does not think they should have commited suicide.

Richard Littlebrain, Max Hustings and the other esteemed experts of 1st armchair brigade probably disagree.

[Pontius Navigator]

WEBF your link is broken = http://zenhuber.*************/

[wokkameister]

I don't particularly think the RN came out of the affair particularly well, but I think you are a TW#T Mr Leith.
Please bugger off back to wherever you came from. You add nothing and the air would be fresher.

[BenThere]

MungoP,

You are doing noble work. I hold gratitude for you and all who take on some significant risk to do a job that needs done for good causes.

I lament that politics have caused the workers for KB&R (Haliburton), and many others, to be maligned as greedy profiteers as they drive the trucks through minefields, work in the tents to serve meals, provide security, and lay the sewer pipe and build the power plants, etc., to try to make things better in the war zone. Many of these people have lost their lives along with the GIs.

They don't get the glory of the combat troops in uniform, but they face the same challenges and fears. My hat's off to you.

Cheers,

[StopStart]

Troll.

Basically.

[nice castle]

Good basically.

[c130jbloke]

Oh dear !!!

Back again Jimmy ? Thought you would have got the message as to what happens when you post utter bo&&ocks from your last thread...

(question to moderators to the unaware - a right ripping read. Not !)
:( :(

[StopStart]

Knew I wouldn't be let down :ok:

[cornish-stormrider]

:E Mr Leite has surfaced. Is there any way we could rig up some sort of alarm when he types his drivel. I know its a free forum and freedom of speech etc, and I also accept you kind people put up with pasty eating feckwits like myself......

Still it does give me some amusement to see someone who IMHO is infinitely thicker than me......

I've worked out who the course ****** is as well......... Do I win a prize:E

[YesTAM]

Sorry Possums, I've been watching this entire thing from a very long distance, in a completely disinterested manner. The entire episode leaves Iran smelling like a rose and Britain smelling of????

1. Sailors and marines captured by surprise.

2. It's news to the RN that the border is ill defined where they were operating.

3. Sailors squawk on Iranian TV and apologise.

4. Realisation sets in that there are no military options available to Britain.

5. Diplomacy applied, and surprise surprise, certain Iranians in U.S. custody released or at least made visible.

6. Americans incoherent with rage over "lilly livered" Brits (not me - read the NeoCon rubbish).

7. Iranians announce release of the prisoners as a gesture of peace and friendship just before the religious festival of Easter.

8. Sailors released after photo opportunity with Ahmenwhatsit. they are wearing very very bad suits and carrying Iranian gift bags. The tailoring of the suits alone are a causus belli.

9. Sailors return to universal joy - then the backbiting immediately starts.

10. "We wuz intimidated and locked up" is the universal cry. Iranians respond with video of happy smiling captives eating dinner and playing ping pong in detention.

11. "I'm getting seventy thousand quid for my story". Hello magasine starts planning its photo spreads.

12. "No further sales of stories allowed" from the MoD.

Question: Is there anything in this entire soap story that reflects well on the British Government or the RN, absent the return of the sailors?

I think not.

Maybe Blair should hire some Iranian spin doctors, come to think of it, Bush could do with a few as well.

[tablet_eraser]

Don't feed the troll, guys.

[woptb]

Tam,frankly a pile of cack!
Those in the anti UK/US block still feel the same,those who believe Iran to be politically beyond the pale still believe it.Entrenched view points have changed by not one iota!
As to a diplomatic coup,your talking out of your hat!

[YesTAM]

Woptb, I agree with you that the Iranian Government are beyond the pale.

The trouble is Public opinion in many (Arab) countries is that Iran has just handed Britain its @ss.

IMHO this does not make anyone's jobs any easier because it encourages troublemakers.

[woptb]

The fact that joe public believes anyones ass has been handed to anyone else does not make it so. The affair & Ahmadinejad's involvement was all about posturing, face & the complexity of Iranian politics.
Despite that posturing & the faux diplomacy a series of illegal & extremely questionable acts remain just that.

[highcirrus]

SET 18

What a difference a few days make. Seems that just about everyone now agrees with your original proposition of 4 April and you can come in from the cold!

[YesTAM]

Agreed Woptb, but ask yourself which politician has successfully achieved their aim? The answer is Mr. A., not Mr. B

[Ali Barber]

A report that thinks we actually came out quite well and it was Iran who shot itself in the foot:

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?menuID=1&subID=1301

If that report is correct, I have to say that I think the MOD is doing its best to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory with its policy of U-turning its policies!

As for "absit invidia" (Let there be no ill will), I hope the ar*e that started this thread and others attacking the armed forces chokes on the dictionary he swallowed. Implied threats of execution may not seem like ill will to you, but they do to me!

[ALTAM]

I'd like to know the Iranians snuck up on them.... The visibility is limited, but not that bad.

Perhaps lookouts are something that has gone out of fashion these days

[sitigeltfel]

What about the futures of the fifteen individuals involved? Unless their shipmates are of the same quality I cannot see a future for them in the "Senior Service". Even if they are posted to other units they will not be able to shake off the smell that will follow them around.

I predict a flurry of PVRs and P45s.

[SET 18]

Ali, don't call me an ar$e mate, you don't now anything about me. Read the thread. I am in the Armed Forces and have served in the Middle East for a large portion of my time in. I am perfectly at liberty to "attack" the Armed Forces as I am a member of same.
You are entitled to disagree with my opinions, but resorting to insulting me does you no credit. If you do read the thread (and any number of British national newspapers) you will see that many,many people agree with the viewpoints expressed by me and others.
Indeed, I don't think that there would be any issues at all were it not for the fact that such a large proprtion of people consider that the hostages' behaviour fell below that which could reasonably have been expected of them. I might be wrong, and I will be prepare to admit it when and if I change my viewpoint, but, until then, there it is.

[ORAC]

Political acumen: (http://eureferendum.*************/)

.....This account is entirely compatible with our earlier assertion that the publication was orchestrated entirely by the Admiralty and does not in away way contradict our contention that it was part of a broader attempt at a cover-up, throwing the hostages to the media "wolves" as a way of diverting attention from the operational failures resulting from decisions made by senior officers.

That there were such failures is endorsed in The Daily Telegraph today by Allan Mallinson, a soldier for 35 years and former commander of the 13th/18th Royal Hussars. The affair started with a straightforward but entirely avoidable tactical military cock-up, he writes, adding:

The 15 sailors and Marines were operating in sensitive waters, with unclear rules of engagement, no reserve and inadequate military intelligence. For this, the local tactical commanders must answer. There must be a board of inquiry and the results nailed to the mast, signalled round the fleet, read out to troops on parade - as would have happened in braver days.

However, further up the chain of command, in the Permanent Joint Headquarters (PJHQ) in Northwood, and in the MOD itself, some very senior officers indeed must answer this question: why, when our troops are in daily and deadly contact with Iranian-supported insurgents in Basra, and with the experience of the 2004 abduction of the Marines on the Euphrates, were these boarding operations being conducted so casually?

The Deputy Chief of Defence Staff (Commitments), Vice-Admiral Charles Style, the MOD officer directly responsible for issuing the operational directives to the forces through the PJHQ, said on television last week that it was because they had conducted so many boardings recently without incident. This is breathtaking complacency that betrays a lack of understanding of the most elementary principles of force protection, the first duty of any commander, and even more of the unawareness of tactical-strategic linkage…

Having been placed in an absurd situation, the boarding party chose to surrender. This tactical decision should not be loosely criticised, but there are legitimate questions: what were the orders "on contact" with Iranian patrol boats, and were they followed? Was the decision not to offer armed resistance in any part due to the presence of a female sailor? The party's conduct after capture also begs questions, but again it needs cooler examination.

Mallinson then picks up on "the rush to judgement" by the First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Jonathon Band, who endorsed the hostages' action in a painful interview with John Humphrys on Friday's Today programme, and by personally shaking hands with the returning sailors and marines. This, he writes, "is puzzling to say the least", asking: "Was it embarrassment at the failures at the strategic (MOD) and operational (theatre) levels?"

It is this behaviour, above all, that has raised our suspicions. Any sensible First Sea Lord should, one would have thought, have distanced himself from the incident, and relied on a Board of Inquiry to elucidate the details of what had transpired. His unprecedented decision to waive the Board and to rely on a watered-down "lessons learned" inquiry, plus this "rush to judgement", shrieks of a guilty man with something to hide.

The behaviour of Band, of the MoD operations' staff and of subordinate commanders like Commodore Nick Lambert, must therefore be subject to the most rigorous scrutiny. Only then, if it can be shown that the officers involved were handicapped by political rather than operational considerations, or were genuinely constrained by issues which only the politicians had the authority to resolve, should the blame be directed at the secretary of state.

There is, however, one important proviso. It is Des Browne's responsibility to find out what went wrong and to take steps to ensure that the necessary remedial actions are taken. Thus, demanding his resignation – as some of the Tory Tribe are doing – before even blame has been properly apportioned, is premature. But, if he fails in his own responsibility, he should go.

[dogrobber]

hi troll
well folks its hard not to ,as almost all of his supporting points r in fact wot really happened....i,m still serving and have a real problem with anti comments about telling the real truth and not some kind of paparazzi immitation.......do not forget the bottom line is this was military stories told out of proper context to provide the tellers with a financial reward (outwith their agreement to serve without recompense,other than the rate of pay)....oh yes not forgetting the abysmal bravo 2 help me for gods sake as the pension is crap reporting that we know the present govt allows as a fob to providing ( or indeed any uk govt) a realistic financial incentive for any member of the armed forces not to jump at the kind of of money a premiorship footballer on a saturday would do to dive in the box...........on another note how much is the leading seaman, woman,things box worth now.......the sun has great photographic contacts....i,ve seen them ...they must be true!!!!!

[An Teallach]

Oh Lord! Someone had better phone an ambulance for Tourist (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271454) right now.

[Lazer-Hound]

See 'Sellout Crowd' and 'Fawlty Powers'

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/index.jhtml