Tetan 1 A

[FO Gyro]

Question for Cape Town ATC's:
I know this should be under the ATC section, but wanted to grab the attention of Cape Town based ATC's.
On the Tetan 1A, Rwy 19: If given "Direct Tetan passing 3000ft", my question is does the speed restriction of 250 kts below 10 000 still apply. Surely it would no longer apply if one is off the departure? If it does still apply, what is the reason?

[philby737]

I imagine the TMA speed of 250 below ten still applies unless cancelled by atc

[FO Gyro]

The TMA speed of 250 below 10 000 is surely for inbound aircraft. I'm talking about a departure here.

[Soap Box Cowboy]

All aircraft operating below 10000 feet are restricted to 250 knots. This is a common law in many places around the world. There is no distinction made between arriving, departing or cruising.

[FO Gyro]

Taken from the CARS Part 91:
"Aircraft speed
91.06.9
(1) Unless otherwise authorised by the Commissioner, no person shall outside controlled airspace and below flight
level 100 fly an aircraft at an indicated air speed of more than 250 knots.
[Sub-regulation (1) substituted by the Fourteenth Amendment"
According to the CARS, 250 kts below 10 000 only applies in uncontrolled airspace in South Africa, and I stand to be corrected, but TMA speed restrictions only apply to inbound aircraft to JNB, DUR, CPT, PLZ etc. (250 at 40, 210 at 15 etc. As far as I know, there's nothing about TMA speeds for departing aircraft.
So my question stands, if on the Tetan 1A SID, and then taken off the departure, does the 250 below 10 000 (as written on the Tetan 1A plate) still apply, bearing in mind the above?

[Romeo E.T.]

I believe that the speed restriction on the 19 departure is to ensure that the minumum height to remain within controlled airspace at 10DME for Stellenbosch 6500ft is attained, and due to the rapidly approaching "rocks" a mimimum height of 8500ft at 15DME is achieved.....I am informed by "the powers" that even if "direct Tetan" is given we must still ensure that we achieve this minimum climb targets/crossing altitudes and in many cases hanging onto 250kts until out of FL85 is the only way of achieving this.

[BOK2GO]

Good question. All the Foreign operators request to cancel the speed restriction even after been taken off the SID. I see the A346 also now requests it. I'll go hit the books today and let you know. As ATC's we expect you to be at or less than 250 knots below 10 000ft as we expect you to be at or less than 210 kts in the CTR. This nullifies many performance differences of a/c sharing the same bit of airspace.
I'll let you know if and where I find that legislation.

[FO Gyro]

Thanks Bok2Go.

Someone said it might be for noise abatement, but I doubt that. JNB doesn't have any 250 below 10 000 restrictions on the SID's, except for 1 or 2 off Rwy 21 that end up going north, and they obviously want one to climb quicker. Besides the new generation aircraft are much quieter.

One ATC, said it might be from some old legacy, but not sure where it comes from. I see Durban SID's also have the 250kts to 10 000 restriction.

[BOK2GO]

Actually it is for noise abatement and can be found in the AIP Enr 1.5.1.1 section.
One would think that it would make exceptions for the new generation jets out there but it doesn't. I'm pretty sure a MD82 doing 210 Kts is noisier than an A319 or B738 doing 280.
Looks like it's just one of those things. We constantly challenge (unsuccessfully) a lot of outdated legislation like why do we need to give modern a/c with FMS track required when sending them to a point further up their route.

[Q4NVS]

B2G

As ATC's we expect you to be at or less than 250 knots below 10 000ft as we expect you to be at or less than 210 kts in the CTR. This nullifies many performance differences of a/c sharing the same bit of airspace.
I'll let you know if and where I find that legislation.

With regards to the above, why do certain ATC's insist on holding some "fast" Turboprops in order to put 732, 734, 738's ahead of them?

Especially when as you metioned, 250 Knots at Ested or wherever will always be the same for a Jet or even a Microlight. :E

This becomes especially frustrating when one ends up flying 210 or less just to stay behind the afore-mentioned traffic. Surely by now some should understand that in general (within the TMA), those "fast" :O Turboprops can outrun most Jets all the way to the Touchdown point.

Slightly off topic (I do apologise), but it is costing our company a lot of delays and fuel burn.

Even when the FMS gives an ETA of 2 minutes earlier than the 73X, why do we still have to delay by up to 5 mins to fit in behind? :{

250 Knots, as you said is 250 Knots...

(if you want 280 Knots in the descend, ask for it and you might just get it as well..)

:ok:

[asianeagle]

BOK2GO
We ask for high speed all the time because when we are heavy, our minimum clean speed can be as high as 280kts, ie Green Dot speed on the Airbus. Better to climb clean than with flap 1. Generally legislation requires 250 below 10000 unless an operationally higher speed is required, although this can still be enforced by ATC. However I think in SA the 250 / 10000 rule is not within ATC`s jurisdiction so to speak.

Keep low, slow and throttle back in the turns:ok:

[Shrike200]

And while we're asking these questions:

Out of Durbs, on the GYV 3C to Joburg (I think, going from my dodgy memory here!) SID off 06, is it still necessary to stay at 210 KIAS until passing through radial 002 DNV if one is given 'in the left hand turn, cleared direct to GYV'?

This may be a stupid question, but what the hey, I'm good at those.

[asianeagle]

I would suggest that if you are taken off the SID, then SID speeds and restrictions no longer apply, however ATZ, CTR and TMA speeds would still apply if any. Check the AIP, might be in there.

[BOK2GO]

Q4NVS

I can't answer your question because I'm not one of those ATCs who will try get a Jet past you in the TMA. I'm of the opinion that if you're ahead, you stay ahead.

Asianeagle

The legislation is not ATC's but CAA's, and we are well within our rights to enforce it here. The only time we probably would though is in a heavy departure sequence when you're following a lesser performance aircraft. In Cpt we generally have no problem with you asking to cancel the speeds on departure and you'll find us more than accomodating. It does help our planning when we know you want to climb out at 280kts, besides the fact that you do need permission.......
We had an incident about a year ago when a citation departed behind a CRJ and the citation put the throttles through the fire wall on departure. It wasn't pretty.

[beechbum]

Out of Durbs, on the GYV 3C to Joburg (I think, going from my dodgy memory here!) SID off 06, is it still necessary to stay at 210 KIAS until passing through radial 002 DNV if one is given 'in the left hand turn, cleared direct to GYV'?

Not a stupid question at all. I've thought of this exact same thing aswell.
But I'm going to ask one....why the speed restriction anyway? Is their any restricted area? Virginia circuit perhaps (althought a little far away) or a restriction with the harbour area?
Would be interested to find out. Will try and ask one of the clever dudes at work and see if I can return with an answer.
Unless someone here can shed the light for us!:ok:

[beechbum]

At Fadn, I see that there is a restricted area over the harbour FA(R) -51. But that only goes to 500' AGL. Now I'm stumped

[FO Gyro]

I heard a rumour a few years ago, when Nationwide were still operating the BAC One Eleven's, that those departures out of Durban were designed bearing them in mind, having the least performance of all the jets operating out of Durban.

A B738, is so quiet, those noise abatement requirements seem hopelessly out of date. The pitch attitude of the aircraft to maintain 210kts, is also uncomfortable for the cabin crew to commence the service, on a what is a very short sector already (DUR-JNB).