Is Anyone Taking DEFO Freighter Positions?

[Millstream]

I am curious to know: What is it like out there in the recruitment market as far as CX DEFO positions are concerned?

CX has entry positions for FOs on the Freighter AND on the Passenger fleet. Qualifications needed are the same, but pay is vastly different, the roster much better and the rules for rostering better.

A lucky DEFO to the passenger fleet would be leaping over about 500 Freighter FOs and SOs to a coveted Pax FO position - a good deal indeed.

How does it work - is it just a lottery? If you are offered the freighter position, can you decline and wait for a passenger spot?

In short - is anyone taking the freighter positions?

Milly

[rjmore]

I'm taking the DEFO position on the freighter. To my knowledge, they are not offering PAX FO in N. America. Either way, first year at CX on the freighter is over double most US majors so I'll be just fine.

[dragonflyhkg]

Milly,

I’m unable to answer your question categorically, but I’ll add what I do know.

A little recent background;
From what I can gather the recruiting picture is presently difficult and has been for some time. In August 2006, the Company indicated that CX needed to recruit a-man-a-day for over two years to man the Company's planned expansion. At that time, Fleet Management indicated that recruiting was at about 6 per week inbound; i.e. 1 man per week shortfall.

I recently spoke with some of our colleagues that attended a briefing earlier this year, where one of the managers indicated that CX started to lose crew back into NAM carriers at the rate of 2 per week from mid November 2006. The NAM Freighter Fleet features heavily in the loss rate, but not exclusively.

Assuming no other changes to the picture (arguable), that puts CX 3 pilots per week behind the drag curve as at Q1-2007.

Have a look at Flight International 6-12MAR (A380 on the cover), 10 ads for CX in the two-page Regional Job Search; FO’s AUS, EUR UK USA, PAX & FTR, as well as SO’s, Sim Instructors, Tech Instructors, Line Ops mangers.

All in all, I’d say that CX is on the verge of a large problem.

Anecdotally, CX are deciding which crew positions are critical and offer positions in accordance with their plan, not the wishes of the applicant, regardless of the position that they applied for.

Dragonfly

[LRpilot]

Waiting for response about first interview,
Cathay actually offer Pax position only if you are T/R on Airbus (Amsterdam),
otherwise cargo fleet (CDG,LHR,FRA and MAN base).
I'll have an answer on april 10,actually t/r on 767 and I'll take the Cathay opportunity even if cargo fleet because I know what kind of job waiting for me and the rules of game,that's it!

[Millstream]

Hi rjmore

The major deliveries on the horizon are 777s and they will be deployed North America as far as I know. It would make a lot of sense if there were DEFO positions on the 777 for North America. It would save heaps of training. Has nobody heard anything?

.....mind you, if the rumors on this forum are to be believed, they have their hands full filling freighter positions due to a steady stream of leavers.

From one fire to the next.

Milly

[Numero Crunchero]

millsy,
somewhere on an earlier thread someone posted an article from the chicago tribune I think. In the article nick rhodes stated some planned recruitment numbers from the states over the next few years. I remember being surprised at how large they were, but cannot remember.

So I suggest that pax defo for the states is just around the corner. We start the long stuff at the end of this year so I guess sometime early next year they probably want to start the defos. In the meantime, they want to get the pax DEFO salary down from the present level to the level that was knocked back by the AOA. So it is in CX's best interests to delay recruiting pax defo in the us until they have another chance to lower that salary.

The question is...should you take a freighter FO position now or wait a year or so for pax defo?

[CMOTDibler]

LRpilot,
the reason CX require you to have a T/R on the Airbus is to even out the field. If CX did not put up some form of impetiment to get directly onto the Pax fleet with its better pay and conditions, everyone would simply apply for the pax amsterdam basing instead of the DEFO freighter positions.

Numero is right about waiting for pax positions. According to a senior CX manager DEFO Pax fleet slots at every major port is waiting in the wings. However he stated that of course CX can offer whatever they like to prospective employees, it is up to the individual whether or not to accept it. Take that as reading that as soon as they can get the freighter and pax pay to a similar level. Otherwise of course they will not be able to fill freighter slots.

[rjmore]

If the pay is at the same level, I think I would prefer the freighter for a while anyway. I need a break from the pax side of things. I'll have my chance at the pax fleet soon enough.

[dragonflyhkg]

No surprises here for any of us; looking at the current threads and other recent communications traffic, here's the summary of the current CX recruitment "game".

Situation
Expansion in progress, aircraft fleet growing markedly, 30+ wide-body aircraft confirmed due by the end of Q1-2010, more orders "in the wings"
Crew required in "increasing" numbers, PAX and FTR
Recruiting situation "increasing" in difficulty - CX unable to source the crew they want and need.

Solution
Resume FO recruitment onto PAX fleets, utilising bases outside HKG where there are existing reductions in remuneration and benefits.

Dependant upon CX priorities and applicant experience, current recruitment streams are
SO - HKG - PAX fleets
FO - Based - FTR fleets, further "integration" at "Company discretion"
FO - Based - PAX fleets, if type rated

For those considering the PAX vs. FTR entry decision, the following variations in conditions specifically apply to the FTR;

** Additional reduction in remuneration and benefits below existing HKG and based PAX B-Scale whilst on the FTR fleets, i.e. C-Scale
** Numerous, specific rostering practice differences, reducing certain conditions and protections below current PAX fleet practices
** Integration into PAX after a "general" minimum of 3 years "checked to line" service, but only at Company discretion
** Further integration restrictions based on other normally expected events; e.g. base changes or FTR type change

NB: After 7-1/2 years of the FACA/FABA agreements detailing integration, CX still has crew being denied PAX fleet integration due FTR crew constraints :ooh:



:hmm: Hmmmm......
I don’t think that's going to do it, do you?

Dragonfly

[Rice Pudding]

If you have a job that pays alright with 15 days off a month could you please email me an application form ??

[dragonflyhkg]

Rice Pudding, et al,

This thread asked "Is Anyone Taking DEFO Freighter Positions?"
The answer is YES, but not enough are joining and the recruiting situation is deteriorating.

My point is that, whoever the airline is that we think we'd like to join, know what you are joining.

Living and working in Cathay Pacific is difficult enough, without the Company stretching the boundaries of "experimental" "creativity" when it comes to work-life, career, basing, rostering, remuneration, benefits, etc.

On the Cathay FTR, 9 to 11 days away from home (assuming all goes well) followed by 4 to 6 days in base-port is a very real problem. Try doing that for 5 years and then seeing what the state of your life and relationships is like.

If you have a job that pays alright with 15 days off a month could you please email me an application form ??
Have a look at the situation at Jetstar International regarding days off within the roster and the port locations where they me be assigned. The point here is that “15 days off a month” is a fraction of all that must be considered and put into perspective when evaluating any possible employment opportunity. For many jobs out there at present, “opportunity” they are not.

So, is a present Cathay FTR employment an “opportunity”?
NO; nowhere near enough applicants, nowhere near enough application successes, established employees leaving, trainees leaving…

Hmmmm......
I don’t think that's going to do it, do you?

Dragonfly

[Tomatoes]

Just a couple things to consider...

The Netherland has one of the highest tax rates in the world. Also...much more expensive to live over N America. So...in my opinion the pay is on par. Gonna live in another country to dodge? Nope....don't forget...European UNION.

With Cathay, if you want to progress (at this point) you will have to move to Hong Kong at some time. Know you will be ok living there!

The job market is picking up. Where I am, they can't find type rated guys any more. So..options are picking up too.

Type rated guys...any at a good company will not be considering this job, as they have invested some time in a seniority system already. Anyone considering, will be in the contract world and is normally earning more than the starting offer. Over time, it surpasses Contract, but with the caveat of having to move to Hong Kong down the road. If you want it..great!

Non typed guys...will gain the percieved advantage into the arena. Are you making more on the long haul? You should...in my experience the enjoyment of flying and benefit of health on short haul is nice. If your not gonna make more...forget it. Dont get me wrong...I enjoy it...but I love to fly..so I also love the approaches and take offs the most. Not to mention the jet lag is just killer on long haul! My opinion though!

Anything else?

[Millstream]

Thanks for dragging the thread back to the question dragonfly :ok:

I am curious to know: What is it like out there in the recruitment market as far as CX DEFO positions are concerned?

CX has entry positions for FOs on the Freighter AND on the Passenger fleet. Qualifications needed are the same, but pay is vastly different, the roster much better and the rules for rostering better.

A lucky DEFO to the passenger fleet would be leaping over about 500 Freighter FOs and SOs to a coveted Pax FO position - a good deal indeed.

How does it work - is it just a lottery? If you are offered the freighter position, can you decline and wait for a passenger spot?

In short - is anyone taking the freighter positions?Milly

[OverFlare]

It is true that income tax in the EU can be very high but it is a mistake to think of the continent as a single entity. Certainly one can legitimately avoid paying much in the way of income tax by working out of a UK base (say LHR) but living somewhere in continental Europe. In fact it is common practise where I work for pilots to move to live in - say - France while remaining based at LHR, thus paying very little income tax because they are no longer resident in the UK. This is all legal and above board and is managed through the company's payroll system.

I would have thought - but I would be interested to know for certain - that, similarly one could work for Cx based in AMS or Frankfurt, live in the UK and pretty much avoid paying any income tax at all. It would certainly be no problem getting to work - you can drive from my house in the south of England to Schipol in about five hours! Does anyone out there do this? I know the DEFO freighter salary isn't very good but if there was little tax to be paid it might just be worth it.

Some people have suggested this loop hole might be tightened up in the future but I don't think so - it is the same set of rules that enables Members of the European Parliament to draw tax free salaries!

[OverFlare]

Ouch. That is a big change. And you are right that tax rules can always change.

But I still wonder if any European based Cx pilots have managed legally to avoid paying income tax in the way that one seems to be able to if one works in London but lives abroad.

[MelbPilot85]

To meet the criteria for "type rated" do you require a 330/340 endorsement or any Airbus FBW? ie. will an A320 endorsement get you a pax DEFO slot?

[backspace]

Not completely sure about the European slots but I think only one of the DEFO pax fleet in AUS had a type rating and most didn't even have glass time.