Civvies working the Line at ISK.....

[reddeathdrinker]

I heard a rumour at work tonight that Civvies may be used to make up the lack of manpower here At ISK Since they are lucky to have a serviceable jet every so often and the PVR's and Redundancies haven't actually hit yet let alone the AMMs returning to Cosford. This isn't just civilianising the place but fitting them in on the Line etc.
Anyone know any more?
Well, I know of at least 2 ex-lineys that have applied for the afore-mentioned jobs.....

[vecvechookattack]

Civvies working the line are a good thing. we have had them at Culdrose for many years. All ex military, now working for SERCO or some other firm. Yep, all in all they are good news,

[OilCan]

...confirmation we've leaned too far perhaps?:uhoh:

Properly trained/experienced civvies are indeed good news, it's the ex carpet fitters and car mechanics I'd be wary of.:eek:

I wonder how long it'll be before we offer danger money and extra training so they can deploy OOA! - that'll do a lot for retention. :ugh:

[NRU74]

Help !
I'm a bit slow [now] -ISK is mentioned often on another thread on this site.
Does ISK mean RAF Kinloss ? if so why ?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Ice Station Kilo, I believe. Yet noone seems to talk of ISL, just down the road...

[MightyHunter AGE]

I think you will find that the civilians will be working in depth to free up personnel to go to ht eline but not actually working on the line. Two different things.
Ice Station refers to the 1968 film Ice Station Zebra insinuating that it feels like we live away up in the frozen north.
Watch the film and you will understand.

[vecvechookattack]

Will these guys be able to act as supervisors on the Line? will they be able to conduct Engine ground runs, test flights etc?

[flipflopman RB199]

will they be able to conduct Engine ground runs, test flights etc?


Perhaps you'd care to remind us when Linies have ever been able to conduct test flights Vecvec?


Flipflopman

[vecvechookattack]

They do in the RN...(And that is despite them having their flying pay taken away from them) And the civillian SERCO guys also do Ground runs and test flights. Just wondered if the civvies at Kinloss will be similarly qualified.

[dodgysootie]

Civvies definately coming to the line at ISK. MPI are recruiting now, 24K/12 month contract plus shift allowance. Hopefully there will be enough to get another shift going so we can get away from the present health sapping "heart attack" shifts we are working at the moment. I for one would like to feel alive again instead of being constantly tired. ZZZZZZZZ.
DS

[Ali Barber]

So the guys who have left can subsidise their pension with civil pay to do the same job. What happens in 10-20 years when there's no one left to leave and the company has to train their own people?

[Exrigger]

I am only guessing here but 'the company' will train people in exactly the same way that the RAF has for umpteen years, its not rocket science more like forward planning and it is not as if they do not know the aircraft they will be training people on. Who do you think trained the first RAF guys on each aircraft type, oh I know let me guess 'the company'.:)

[Ali Barber]

From what I have seen of this sort of thing before, the company relies on access to a steady flow of ex-RAF types and makes no provision for training. That way they can submit a lower tender and win the contract.

[ericferret]

The issue of pay for ex service personnel on military contracts has been a contentious issue for years.

I believe it is a matter of personal choice for the staff involved.

Engineers who have taken their licenses are in huge demand at the moment particularly avionics. Contract licensed engineers working huge hours admittedly have earned as much as £100,000 p.a in recent years.
A licensed engineer in a permanent job would earn between £34,000 and
£50,000 depending on employer location e.t.c

However someone who has children at school and a local house with a pension might well believe that a local lesser paid job is a better option.

Are these people being exploited? My personal view is yes. However they have a choice.

There is such an engineer shortage that those who take the trouble to get qualified will have no problem finding work. All the licensed avionics engineers I have worked with in the last 5 years are ex military without exception.
They have fallen into a civil market that I could only dream about when I left the military with courses and licensing training provided on a massive scale by the airlines.

So engineers can choose they are not being posted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Padraig Murphy]

Exrigger,

Not often I agree with you, however what concerns me is, just look at the naval industry for far too long now contracts have been undercut to the point that the quality goes out the window through a system called reverse-auctioning ie cheapest wins. What happens when the customer goes through another bad year, will he put the contract out for competition, again? If so, then these currently qualified to type techies will jump ship to the next company just to keep a job for probably less £'s and the quality factor may slip again (less money less incentive to do the job properly possibly)? Maybe what we need is a minimum wage for all qualified personnel coming into industry and only suitable personnel qualified to type can work on these platforms? Bit like a Military version of CAA? But we still have to take into consideration is the unions, working time directives, war roles for civvies. It might be more cost effective in the long run to recruit more and incentivise those already within the mob, rather than "you're time's up and its time to go". Lets be honest they're going out one door and back in another and it still all comes out of the same tax-payers pocket ie us.

[Exrigger]

Padraig Murphy:
What happens when the customer goes through another bad year, will he put the contract out for competition, again? If so, then these currently qualified to type techies will jump ship to the next company just to keep a job for probably less £'s and the quality factor may slip again (less money less incentive to do the job properly possibly)?

I quite agree this will/has been a problem , especially when the local Forces recruitment agency person, say like in lincoln has aircraft engineers at lower wages than local security guards/delivery drivers etc. because the local aerospace/engineering firms industry knows that on the whole that ex service personnel have pensions, so a good wage for them is between £12-15,000 + pension puts them over 20 grand. As you quite rightly say it is down to peoples choice if they decide this will satisfy them.

It might be more cost effective in the long run to recruit more and incentivise those already within the mob, rather than "you're time's up and its time to go". This is what happened to me, "wrong rank, new rules, goodbye".

Absolutely agree, though I do not believe I have put forward anything different, my aim has only been to respond to the various threads that blame "untrained civvies" (ie. ex serving members of her majesties finest, which I find insulting to them) and BAES for all the problems with manpower shortages/aircraft accidents etc (even those they have no responsibility for but are still held responsible).

[Padraig Murphy]

Exrigger didn't mean to point fingers at you sorry if it came across wrong.

Point is there are many "untrained civvies" out there across all platforms, air land & sea worldwide. Whilst working in ME found ex-navy ship engineers working on/maintaining Hawk 102's for Airworks, cheaper than BAES, I believe BAES Oz now look after this.

In simple terms as BAES are the DA and ADO for the platforms at ISK and the majority of other air platforms the likelihood of "untrained civvies" working on these platforms would be highly unlikely as the ADO would need to give sign off/approval. For other platforms such as naval the customer remains as DA and they tend to go with the cheapest solution not the most cost effective, or quality solution.

I hope they don't venture down this route for air.

[vecvechookattack]

What happens when the customer goes through another bad year, will he put the contract out for competition, again


Exactly.....and SERCO will win the contract....like they have done for the past 400 years.

[ericferret]

A number of years ago I was offered a job by Shorts as a field engineer on the Tucano demonstator.

On the second interview they confirmed the salary of £10,000 to my horror, I thought I had misheard them.

A year or two later I met a Shorts tech rep who told me that if that job had been offered in house which it wasn't it would have been £17,000.

He told me it was quite simple they were looking for someone with a services pension already in the back pocket. This job was being advertised out of Scampton.

The MOD can set whatever standards it wants for the engineers employed to work on it's aircraft. If it chooses not to then the responsibility lies with them.

Where I currently work we have 12 engineers.
8 ex RAF, 2 Civvie, 1 ex Army 1 ex navy.

I suppose if any of us turned up for a job on a military unit we would all be seen as "civvies".

[AC Ovee]

This inititiave doesn't really solve the long term problem, though. I dare say that the civvies will not be deployable. Therefore, the middle-aged tradesman at Kinloss, approaching his pension point, will leave the Service. This will create a vacancy, not easily filled, so his job will become civilianised and guess who will take it? He will. He will remain at Kinloss, working agreed contracted hours, safe in the knowledge that he will not be deployed.

[MightyHunter AGE]

AC Ovee you have hit the nail square on the head quote "Therefore, the middle-aged tradesman at Kinloss, approaching his pension point, will leave the Service. This will create a vacancy, not easily filled, so his job will become civilianised and guess who will take it? He will. He will remain at Kinloss, working agreed contracted hours, safe in the knowledge that he will not be deployed."

I have already heard talk amongst personnel on the line to the effect "I may as well PVR and apply for one of these jobs, it would be less hassle and with my pension I would be on the same money without guard, gulf etc etc"
Watch this space!!