At last, some SH news...

[RichardIC]

http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=275377&NewsAreaID=2

Ministry Of Defence (National)

More battlefield helicopters for the UK Armed Forces


Over the next two years, fourteen additional helicopters will be made available for use on military operations, the Secretary of State for Defence, Des Browne has announced today.
The Ministry of Defence has agreed to buy six new Merlin helicopters, which will be available within a year and to convert eight existing Chinook Mark 3 helicopters to make them available for deployment in two years. The complete package will cost around £230 million.
Des Browne said:
"This is the best possible outcome for our joint helicopter force and for the Armed Forces as a whole. This package will deliver 14 additional military helicopters into new operational roles, with the first available for operations within a year.
"Battlefield support helicopters are one of the most crucial capabilities for military commanders. I am determined that we have enough if we need to send more to operations in Afghanistan, Iraq or elsewhere." The Merlin has already performed well on operations in Iraq. These six helicopters are brand new aircraft originally purchased by Denmark, the last delivered in January this year. They have not, however, entered operational service with the Danes. The UK has agreed in principle with the Danish Government and AgustaWestland that the Merlins will be transferred to the UK. Denmark will then receive six additional aircraft from AgustaWestland. We are grateful to the Danish Government for this agreement, which demonstrates once more the strong link between our two NATO nations.
The £175M firm cost will equip the UK Merlins with operational enhancements and the latest generation of advanced rotor-blades which will enhance their speed, range and lift. This will ensure good performance even in demanding environments like Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Chinook Mk3s were ordered in 1995 for special operations. They were delivered in 2001 but have been unavailable since then due to well reported technical problems.
Having taken military advice, the Defence Secretary has decided that given the high priority attached to supporting current operations, a better solution is to convert the Mk3s to a battlefield support role. This is judged to provide a lower delivery risk than other options considered for the Mark 3s and is the only one that provides significant enhancement to our Chinook helicopter capability in the next two years.
Work will begin immediately on the conversion, which will cost in the region of £50-60M.
ENDS
Notes to Editors
1. The package announced today will increase by 14 the number of battlefield support helicopters available for operations. All 14 will be fitted for operations but not all will be deployed at any one time. These measures will also improve the long-term sustainability of our helicopter fleet and increase the number available for any new contingent operations.
2. The MoD has been working hard to increase medium-term support helicopter availability. Last year, as part of the force enhancements in Afghanistan, two more Chinooks were deployed. There has been continual work on spares and crewing to increase the number of hours the aircraft can fly per month. Operational commanders in Afghanistan and Iraq have consistently and publicly confirmed that they currently have sufficient support helicopters to do the tasks required, although we can always do more with more. For example, Brigadier Jerry Thomas (Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan) has said, "Our success on operations would not have been possible unless our forces were properly equipped and supplied. To be clear, I have not asked for additional helicopters and the supply system is working well."
3. The deal agreed in principle between the Secretary of State for Defence and his Danish counterpart will allow the UK to acquire 6 of the Merlins recently delivered to Denmark. This will increase the UK's battlefield Merlin fleet of 22 Merlin Mark 3s, by over 25% to 28 aircraft. The Merlin has a proven capability on operations. The agreement with Denmark and AW has a cost to the UK of £174.7m, including: the airframes, some UK specific modifications including defensive aids, spares and "BERP IV" blades which offer improvements to speed, range and lift capacity of the platform, and will give the hot-high performance needed to deploy to Afghanistan. We should have a deployable capability early in 2008, and it would provide long term benefit to our support helicopter fleet. The aircraft will be based at RAF Benson in Oxfordshire alongside the rest of the Merlin fleet.
4. The Chinook is the mainstay of the support helicopters currently deployed in Afghanistan. In order to augment this fleet, the 8 specialist Chinook Mk3 aircraft currently grounded due to technical issues will be immediately converted to operational standard for the battlefield support helicopter role. This will deliver the aircraft into operations years earlier than previously anticipated - the current estimate is that they will start to be available for operations in two years, but we will refine this estimate as work progresses. It will increase the size of the Chinook battlefield support helicopter fleet of 40 Mark 2 or 2a, by about 20%, to 48 aircraft. We estimate this work will cost about £50-60M, but further work is urgently underway to detail both the costs and the technical aspects of this conversion. The Chinooks will be based at RAF Odiham in Hampshire.
5. In addition to this package, we will continue the work previously established under the auspices of the Future Rotorcraft Capability (FRC) programme to ensure we are able to meet our battlefield support helicopter capabilities in the long-term. This includes plans to launch a competition early next year for a new medium-lift helicopter.
6. The active UK support helicopter force currently consists of:
* 22 Merlin Mk3
* 40 Chinook Mk2/2A
* 38 Puma
* 42 Sea King Mk 4/6c
Total 142 aircraft
7. With the additional aircraft the UK support helicopter force will consist of:
* 28 Merlin Mk3
* 48 Chinook Mk2/2A
* 38 Puma
* 42 Sea King Mk 4/6c
Total 156 aircraft
9. Further information, including imagery of the helicopters, is also available in the news section of the Ministry of Defence's website at http://www.mod.uk (http://www.mod.uk/).
Client ref 064/2007
GNN ref 145801P

[mbga9pgf]

I feel that these helecopters may come too late for those requiring battlefield airlift between now and TWO YEARS!!!! What a disgrace. :mad:

[sharmine]

Great news:D , but for the long time coming:ugh: . Only question now is where will the manpower come from to operate and maintain them? :confused:


Sharmine

[Razor61]

Two :mad: years to convert a few Chinooks when they could have started the conversion bloody years ago! So, what are the chaps supposed to do in the meantime while they wait two years to get extra lifting capabilities in Afghanistan, assuming they will still be there then?

[Jackonicko]

14 more helicopters. In about two years time. And still no theatre-deployable RW ISTAR platform to take over from the wheezy Lynx.

But I'm celebrating.

Whoop de fecking do. :rolleyes:

And I'm puzzled.

Why will it take til 2008 to deploy the new Merlins?
Crews for them were being posted in to Benson before Christmas, and training at Westland was expected to be starting round about now.
And why will this cost £175m (just shy of £30 m per helicopter)?
At least there's no longer the suggestion that they'll be converted back to HC3 standards......

And for only £50-60 m and since "a better solution is to convert the Mk3s to a battlefield support role", which is "judged to provide a lower delivery risk than other options considered for the Mark 3s" should we infer that the Thales Top Deck option has been abandoned, and that the aircraft will effectively be refurbished and converted as HC2s, albeit with an (empty) pointy nose and enormous sponsons?
And in either case (Top Deck or HC2) why on earth will this take two years?

And while we all slag off the politicians for not providing our armed forces with the kit they need, and while we all bang on about 'overstretch', and while the NAO identified a 37% shortfall in helicopter lift even before the whole Iraq/Afghanistan shebang, what the f*** does "Brigadier Jerry Thomas (Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan)" think he is doing, saying that he has "not asked for additional helicopters" - supporting the NuLabour spin that "Operational commanders in Afghanistan and Iraq have consistently and publicly confirmed that they currently have sufficient support helicopters to do the tasks required."

Did we all imagine the shortfall in rotary lift, especially in theatre? Perhaps it was invented by those nasty journo types.

The next time anyone starts up about journos, I hope you'll remember the members of your own services who, even when asked, did not have the bol.locks to say: "Please Sir, Can I have some more?"

And no mention of Carson bladed Sea Kings, no mention of increasing numbers via further second hand Pumas, nor via putting Carson blades on half a dozen of the surplus, low-time HAS.Mk 6s sitting around at Fleetlands......

[dervish]

Agree about the Chinooks. Given the fix to field team have been in place for years preparing for main gate, this is hardly news. I understand main gate will be this year but with the amount of staff leaving because they're completely disheartened by over a decade of political machinations, when all they want is to deliver kit, the timescale is anyones guess.

The obvious problem with that list of helicopters is that more than half are very old, and more or less life expired. The others are taking a hammering in theatre, and probably exceeding their planned annual flying rate by a huge margin, so you could very shortly add quite a few Chinook airframes to the life-ex list. If the Chinook lead time is anything to go by, MoD will be thinking about life extension programmes and new a/c at the same time. When you add Lynx and a/c for CVF to the equation, there's a lot of funding required over the next few years. I can foresee the people with the purse strings forcing delays by seeking yet another assessment. Not very good planning.

[VuctoredThrest]

I dont think that converting the Mk3 Chinooks to Mk2 is an option so it begs the question what are they going to do and who is going to do it??
£60m would still give a substantial upgrade providing you ignore the extra bells and whistlles. Note that if we had started F2F when I first became involved (2yrs ago) we would be testing an aircraft now. Too much procrastination and doing things to the nth degree (by MoD).

[South Bound]

Dervish

the wokkas are not going life-ex, their life is worked out on condition (which is comparatively easy to monitor) and their condition can be returned to something approaching new. That is the reason BN is still flying around the place doing its fair share of Ops some 25 years after the FI - there is no talk of replacing her as far as I am aware. Best analogy is 'Triggers Broom', has has 5 new handles and 7 new heads, but is still the same aircraft.

Notwithstanding the numbers of aircraft required in theatre, it is those that remain that are the sticking point. We can fly what we like in theatre, but we must retain the ability to train our crews back home, giving them sufficient hours to update their skills before deployment. An increased flying rate in theatre will create a proportionally greater increase in the hours required at home and an increased requirement in frames to fly the hours. Additionally, all the Units that rely on the helos in theatre must have access to them in the UK to prepare and be familiar with them. This is all about sustaining the present operational tempo, which arguably is going to be tricky with no uplift of resource.

Oh, and every now and then someone wants us to do something else too, and the cupboard must be fairly bare with the level of operational flying. This is all about maintaining the capability we are required to have over and above the formal ops.

[dervish]

South Bound

Thank you. Good explanation. Seems there's still a related problem though. Perhaps I don't understand the Chinook world well enough, but I recall other airframes having, say, a notional 10,000 hour life, at which point they require significant investment even to have this extended. MoD can do what they want with them, but it is wise to have the manufacturer underwrite or endorse it. The bottom line is money, and as you say more a/c are needed to sustain a higher flying rate on ops. I'm not sure a few Mk3s and Merlins is quite what those at the sharp end had in mind, but I suppose a little is better than nothing. I hope the Treasury don't say "Right, you've had you aircraft, don't come back for 10 years".

[Melchett01]

Talking to mates on the Merlin fleet, the extra 6 cabs look like they will cause more problems than they will solve - centralised eng, crews forceably moving to a new sqn (if it stands up), guys that thought they had escaped for a "quiet tour" to get time in with the family being brought back, a general lack of identity and problems with provision of the 3A's engines not being ideal for desert work meaning that all the effort will still be on 28 but with fewer resources.

Don't know why they didn't just put the money into providing the much needed resources to help the existing Merlins along ie more spares and personnel. When we do get the extra 6 cabs, you can probably work on having 2 on the line - is all the upheaval and problems that will be associated with this really worth an extra 2 cabs when by properly funding an existing asset you could have probably had an extra 6 cabs out on the line.

Ordinarily I would have thought that bringing a new sqn online would be good news. In this case it looks like a fundamental misunderstanding of what is actually required by those in the ivory towers and their financial and political masters. This looks like one silver lining that has a honking great Cb associated with it. Anyone opened a book yet on how this will affect the PVR rates - anyone from the Merlins got any ideas?

[low height bug]

Melchett

"the 3A's engines not being ideal for desert work"

Would you like expand on that statement? I'm not aware of any significant mechanical differences in the Mk200 (Mk3) and the Mk250 (Danish, Portuguese, Japan) engines.

lhb

[Melchett01]

LHB - not being a Merlin engine expert, you would probably have me for breakfast in terms of comparing the 2 engines. However, you missed out the important word provision of the 3A's engines not being ideal for desert ops. That said, I probably should have expanded on what I was thinking, but it has been a long old week!

I believe that trips to the sandpit reduces the working life / time between major servicing etc to a fraction of what it would be if they were just used in the UK. Not a problem ordinarily, but I have been led to believe that the new 3A package won't include a major buy of replacement engines.

As such, if you were faced with trying to manage a mixed fleet, with one variant having a [I]relatively/I] plentiful supply of engines and the newer version having only limited supplies of a different engine, it wouldn't appear to make much sense to send the 3As off to the desert where they may face increased engine wear. And without a supply of replacement engines to make up for that, 3As + desert = no change from current situation - lots of cabs u/s in the hangar waiting for more engines and the SH fleet is back to where we were yesterday.

Hope that makes my thinking a little clearer ..... I need a beer!

[low height bug]

Melchett

Brain engaged - now I understand your comments. I'm sure there will be some issues with regard to the Mk200/Mk250 parts compatibility. Hopefully someone (RAF/WHL/MoD?) will be talking to RR about this to identify these issues. There were minor tweaks made to the Mk250 but I can't remember the details (obviously different FADEC part number). The engine does have similar power to the Mk200 (but with - I think - a much more useful rating structure when AEO).

Enjoy your beer

lhb

[NURSE]

Its a good headline and Ministers can Bang on about how they have provided more airframes when challenged by media, opposition and members of the public. Its not so sexy saying we provided more spares and engines for existing fleet.
However I have to say it is some good news now lets hope the pressure can be brought to bear to provide realistic budget levels to support spares and support for the Support Helecopter fleet.
BTW has anyone in JHF raised the issue of a better engine for the Merlin fleet or the update/Replacement of the Chinook Fleet. I also not no announcmet re Ex Portugese AF Pumas or SK 6(C)

Is there any word on what will happen to the Sea King Har3/3a Fleet when SAR is privatised?

[toddbabe]

think they are staying but will just be engineered by civvies instead.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

More crews might not be available for the new Merlins but it will give the technicians more spares to rob (If they have the time) !!!

[XV277]

Mmmm, wonder if the Chinooks will got back to Boeing, hence the long-time. And I guess the MH-47 buy is back on ice as well.........

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Is there any word on what will happen to the Sea King Har3/3a Fleet when SAR is privatised?

Nurse,

SAR isn't due to be privatised for some years to come (2012 is the most common rumour), so the 25 yellow Sea Kings wouldn't be available until then - and, frankly, they won't have much useful life left by then! (well, the 19 HAR3s anyway - not sure what state the oh-so-modern 3As will be in)

As Toddbabe says, what is happening over the next 9-12 months (ish) is the replacement of the experienced RAF groundcrew with a smaller number of inexperienced civilian groundcrew. Pure genius, for a complex and ageing aircraft...

TOTD

[Exrigger]

I had decided not to bite, but hey ho:

All the various threads on this forum and others that have done nothing but moan about all the experience leaving the RAF through PVR, time expired and force reductions. Then when these same ex RAF engineers carry on doing the same job on the same aircraft that they have been doing in the RAF for years, they suddenly seem to suffer altzheimers and become 'inexperienced civilian groundcrew' and elsewhere 'untrained chimps, who would not be allowed to operate a broom if they wore a blue suit' they are also apportioned responsibility for the accidents, spares shortages & lack of aircraft because of this ineptutude and lack of experience.
Additionally when a company is asked to produce a product to do a, b & c, after winning a contract in competition with other manufacturers, build the product and then the customer asks wether said company can all of a sudden re-design the aircraft to do d, e & f as well and you all expect all this additional design, development and testing to be done within the original timescales and cost, and here I am thinking that the forum contributors are highly intelligent, experienced engineers and aircrew, its like reading the ramblings of a childrens play group.
I also believe that it is testament to the designers, production teams and RAF engineers that these aircraft have served so long and so well doing the job, despite the changing roles and tasks that in some cases the aircraft was not designed to do, and bear in mind that it was not the civvies that changed the role of the aircraft from its original design it was the military.

[torque dirty to me]

Interesting tack from the government. Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me. There is two (soon to be three) long established, happy, competent, current Merlin Squadrons that are not being used in the SH role at present. 820 NAS, 814 NAS and soon 825 NAS. All because the money "Couldn't be found":( to give Royal Navy HM MK 1's DAS Suites, and NVG capability. How the hell is it cheaper to buy 6 new cabs and stand up a new squadron, than to retro fit existing airframes. Discuss!
TD
p.s. insert own rant about RAF funds grabbing here........................:E

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Exrigger,

My comments were not meant to offend, and some (but only some) of what you say is true, but...

Reducing the number of groundcrew, as is planned, will definitely cause us problems

and

In this case, few of the contractor's few engineers will be ex-RAF Sea King engineers - I know this for a fact, having spoken over the last year or so to most of our groundcrew. Most of them, as experienced RAF engineers, will be sent elsewhere within the RAF: they can't just walk out one day as an RAF ginger and come back in the next day as a civilian (and some of them wouldn't want to anyway). Hence my concern about lack of experience, though I have been somewhat heartened to find out that there will be a couple of the current engineers who will be staying on under the new regime.

I can only speak with any certainty about the privatisation of SAR, as that's what I happen to know a bit about, but the impression I get is that things ain't too rosy on other fleets where civilian engineering has appeared - the Nimrod thread is only the most obvious example (see Jackonicko's post this afternoon about the chasm between what was promised from NISC and what is actually happening at Kinloss).

I don't mean for a moment that the engineers on the shop floor are at fault, whether civvy or military - from what I've seen, people work hard, and take pride in their jobs, whatever colour boiler suit they happen to wear. The fault belongs to those on high who, for the sake of penny-pinching, take away a working system and replace it with one which will be less good. Is my well-founded concern for the future really 'the ramblings of a childrens play group'?

[Evalu8ter]

Torque,
Not wishing to split hairs, but SH comes out of the LAND budget, not the "Typhoons, JSF and More Typhoons" RAF budget!
It takes a bit more than DAS and NVG cockpits to turn Pingers and their Merlin 1 into viable SH. A lot of training for the aircrew (how do you spell "tac climb"?) and major mods to the airframe. We joke about the Merlin 3's slide, er, ramp, but at least it's better than trying to get in a door that is a fathom off the ground!
And anyway, you've just justifed a £1Bn pound Merlin 1 CSP (think how many CH47/Merlin HC3/ Pumas we could of got for THAT) so there MUST be some sort of ASW role for the aircraft, mustn't there????
No, for once 6 Danish Merlins is good news, of sorts. Probably 6 to provide 2 anywhere useful. The simple fact of life is that nobody is selling the right sort of Helos in the timescale - believe me, if anybody had been selling CH47s we would have bought those first!

[Exrigger]

TorqueOfTheDevil:

You are correct I was not aiming the 'the ramblings of a childrens play group' at you in particular, I am sorry, but I have seen so much of these types of comment throughout lots of peoples contributions that I have fallen into the similar trap of tarring all contributors with the same brush, though in fairness it was a build up over the last week of resisting and I was bored and finally decided to put forward my two pennorth worth.

I was aiming a general rebuttal to those who do continuously harp on about the civilianisation as being the pinnacle of the problem and those that seem to not have a mind/opinion of their own jump on the civvie bashing bandwagon.

I have experience, both within the RAF and out, of the process of civilianisation and you will find that a good number, certainly at St Athan virtually took their uniforms off Friday and started work as a civvie Monday carrying on where they left off, additonally an awful lot of ex service personnel register with an agency and when the likes of BAES/FRAS/Morsons/Bombardier/Huntings etc require aircraft technicians this is where they come from.

As I, you and many others have rightly said, the blame lies soley with the MOD and Government who are doing everything in their power to destroy everything that 'we' have known and are/have been proud to be part of.

So for those that do not civvie bash, blaming them for everything, and are concerned for the future of the services I will apologise for any offence, but I still stand by the rest of my comments.

[ianp]

Gentlemen,

I am surprised that there has been little comment on the fact that the Defence secretary said;

"This package will deliver 14 additional military helicopters into new operational roles".

I thought we were quite busy with the ones we have got thank you very much.

[High_lander]

The reason it is taking a little longer to get the Danish cabs over the North Sea is that the deal still has to go through Danish Parliment.

The Mk3a's are going to go into service with the BERP IV blades fitted.

[NURSE]

Point take re SAR

Would a good stratagey now be then to start ordering next generation chinooks now I know it will be a few years before delivery but stary ordering a few aircraft each year to build a fleet gradually and plan for the retirement of the early Chinook airframes.....or is this to much common sense for the Mod?

[ProfessionalStudent]

Surely more Merlins will just enable 28 to fly to more exotic places doing Westlands' sales job for them?

[Two_Squirrels]

For all those people whinging about the length of time to get these new cabs into service, I have some sympathy. However, you cannot underestimate the difficulties in designing, manufacturing (some items have very long lead times and just won't be available at the drop of a hat), and testing. For instance, the BERP IV blades have only been flying for a short amount of time, and they have not been tested in hot and high conditions (for example). You cannot just stick new blades on a helicopter and put it straight into service. Getting the Dansih merlins into service by early next year is incredibely quick

[VuctoredThrest]

Just to reiterate my previous comments with regards to the Chinooks - what is he expecting to happen. You cannot easily (or at all) retrofit a Mk2 mechanical cockpit into the Mk3 digital variant technically, never mind the spares situation (ie, gettting some more old fashioned instruments, none). Somebody somewhere must have a plan - I hope.

[HEDP]

Am I properly out of date with developments or.......

With the advanced section and planform blade (ASP) rather than BERP (no longer experimental rotor program) there is an increased forward speed, particularly at hieght however; I was under the impression that there was a reduction in performance at lower speeds and in the hover. Is this still the case or has it been overcome?

Does this affect Merlin or has it not been noted as to-date it hasn't operated at the higher altitudes of the Stan. I presume it is a factor in Lynx performance. Has it been quantified in the Carson blade performance?

If it is a factor has it been accepted when balanced against the increase in forward speed? One would assume that it is the hover performance that would be a more critical factor in the current Stan operational environment.

HEDP

[Evalu8ter]

Vuctored,
Don't forget the Mk3s were constructed with analogue cockpits and then flown to Shreveport to have the Honeywell-hybrid fitted.....Now where did we put those cockpits.....?

We hit issues over obsolescence with the Mk2As, which already have slight cockpit differences. Make no mistake, the only way to get the Mk3s analogue in 2 years is to fit the identical cockpit. The irony is that this is a short term fudge, and the airframes will probably only last 3-5 years with analogue before they get "glassed" as part of the next MLU. This is a political/military sticking plaster to cover up under-investment in BH over the past decade (and the raiding of £1Bn from the FRC budget).

At least we get to fly them though......

[[email protected]]

And who will do the work on the Chinooks? Fleetlands? They are already maxed out with more aircraft than they can manage - hence delays of many months getting Sea Kings out of the door. Rumour has it the RAF Sea King servicing went there to make the Fleetlands order book look full ready to be sold off next year!

[Mr-AEO]

A number of questions here asking what is happening to the Mk3 Chinooks. I doubt there will be answers just yet, after all, the team have been working toward delivering aircraft post Fix to Field for the SF Heavy role for the last X years and now that they have a solution, Minister doesn't like it because it isn't sexy or quick enough to make headlines!:ugh:

I very much doubt the IPT have a 'Plan B - Mk2'ish solution' up their sleeve! This talk of 'immediately starting work to convert the Mk3' is scary tosh. That means, 'chit, panic, lets get the fag packets out and work up a design that meets the altered requirement, and comes into the budget that we've been given (not worked up!), which incidentally is 1/3rd of what we thought we needed for F2F - and do it a year quicker - whilst sticking a broom up our ar$e and sweeping the hangar!'. Not to mention that Boeing might just give up on us for leading them astray for the last few years.

I weep for the future:{. Perhaps Minister would like to single handedly run the project because he knows best? or perhaps he would single handedly like to solve the Typhoon issues?? After all, his background really is the ideal CV for Military Aviation:}

[VuctoredThrest]

I am appalled at the thought that the minister makes an announcement without a credible plan from the IPT. Who does he think he is! We have lots of people who's job it is to consider and plan these things to the nth degree. He must have some sort of plan otherwise he could not say its going to cost 50 to 60m. It might only cost 10m!!
Never mind the cockpit wot about the new airframe and fuel system, etc they need addressing as well.
It will be interesting to see how these Mk2Bs pan out.

[electric.sheep]

Evalu8ter,

Surely of more interest is what are they going to keep from the Mk 3 upgrade? Inflight refuelling, fat tanks, radar/nose, flir ? Refitting the original cockpit will be fun, if they can find them, but some of the goodies would be useful if retained.:ugh:

[Compressorstall]

In terms of useful toys, does anyone know what fit the Danish Merlins are going to come in? Radar etc would be very handy for some of the work the aircraft can do.

[gnome_fiddler]

Hopefully the Merlins will come with their special leaky gearboxes and chocolate fastners otherwise the groundcrews will get really bored.

[Evalu8ter]

Sheep,
Sadly I find it very doubtful that much of the Mk3's "special" stuff will survive, indeed some of it has probably already been "traded" in an attempt to make the "fix-to-field" affordable. I predict that the radar will go (no screen to show it on) and the AAR will not be retained (no donor ac) though the fat tanks will stay as it is probably too expensive to revert to "svelte tanks"! Some of the F2F programme will have to be retained, and those elements are not for discussion on a public forum. A large chunk of money will have to be spent to bring them up to Mk2/2A standard, let alone all of the UORs....Still, nice to know we seem to have the money to update the Puma & Sea King but not F2F the Mk3 Chinook, it's all politics and presentation..

[VuctoredThrest]

Now that the dust has presumably settled does anyone have a clue as to what or how or who are going to make them into some sort of Mk2/A/B? They (MoD) have probably already spent enough money (our money) in their pontificating (sorry aquiring the best equipment for the most affordable price) to have converted at least one aircraft by now (to F2F)!

[Rude C'man]

OK I BIT !!!!
maybe cos the Sea queens cant lift jack **** in the hot desert !! hence the reason they never went into 'The Stan' in the first place off Ocean!!!!

[High_lander]

The goodies are owned by the Danes.

Whether or not they come to us is guess work.

[Cpt_Pugwash]

Apologies if this has been posted before, but I have just spotted this in the centre page article of Defence Focus May07 (http://centre.defence.mod.uk/newslettersdf/focus/may07.pdf) issue ..........

" The huge warehouse opposite his office contains two Puma
helicopters. “They’re ex-South African,” says Ged. “They were
snapped up for £75k each by the Puma and Gazelle IPT in Yeovil
- a real bargain. With only 2,000 flying hours on the clock, the
RAF reckons they’re barely run in.” "

Barely run in, and they'll stay that way kept in a huge warehouse!

WIHIH?

[GreenWings]

Pugwash wrote: Barely run in, and they'll stay that way kept in a huge warehouse!
WIHIH?
Perhaps they're the 3rd and 4th RSA ac procured to supplement the Puma fleet. If so they're due in service with the Sqns very soon. The first 1 ac are doing very well so far, and have far less hours than the majority of the Puma fleet.
cheers,
GW.

[PlasticCabDriver]

No, nos 3 & 4 are still at Westlands. The two at Llangenech (sp?) are nos 5 and 6, of which there are no plans to bring into service.

[Cpt_Pugwash]

PCD,
Thanks for the reply. I guess they will be used as spares donors for the ones brought into service. Seems a waste of low houred airframes though. Makes sense to the beancounters I suppose.

[airborne_artist]

Article (http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.1733980.0.merlin_magic.php) in the Oxford Mail today. 78 Sqn stands up on 03 Dec 2007.

Press release on Mod.uk (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/NewMerlinsUnveiledForNewRafSquadron.htm)

[Al R]

"Station Commander Group Captain Paul Lyall said the new Merlins, which have three Rolls-Royce engines and can lift the equivalent of two Land Rovers, were a "huge boost" for the base and he and his team were "extremely excited" about working with the machines."

I bet they can hardly sleep. People are listless at Benson.. an uneasy calm exists, the unit is in limbo.

Stackers in SCAF fidget in their seats, look to the windows and gaze skywards. 'Are they here yet, are they here yet?' they mouth silently 'When will they come, when will they come? Does no one care about the levels of torment that Lord Drayson has placed us under with his exciting announcement?'.

"Its behind yoouuuuuu!"

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/gallery/59E598F7_1143_EC82_2EEFA6BF067033D7/BEN-05-28SQN-CSAR-OUT-UNC-0.jpg

[AHQHI656SQN]

Given the out-flow of pilots, how are the new squadrons going to be manned? How long is the conversion to type and how long for CR Trg?

[vecvechookattack]

Those 2 guys without ear duffs or cranial protection are gonna get the shock of their lives when that thing lands next to them

[cokecan]

(this is the first - and i sincerely hope only - time i suggest an OPSEC issue)

but given that some of the geezers in the photo are in civvies, is it entirely appropriate that their mugs are pasted over the internet?

[Al R]

.. the Merlin fot?

It already was on the RAF/MoD site.

[Melchett01]

(this is the first - and i sincerely hope only - time i suggest an OPSEC issue)

but given that some of the geezers in the photo are in civvies, is it entirely appropriate that their mugs are pasted over the internet?

They're all mil types, I believe the photo taken during an exercise serial.

[cokecan]

why am i not surprised that it was on the MOD/RAF website....

my point being that there are particular groups of gentlemen who while squaddies have also been known to work in jeans and t-shirts - even on this occasion sans regimental Guacho 'tache and Jason King sideburns.

indeed an exercise of the nature depicted above occurs quite regularly - though the chaps in civvies look a little clean and 'unshagged out' for this particular exercise - perhaps in the interests of 'just in case' the photo should be changed for more appropriate one?

[Rakshasa]

You've got a point Coke, but I'm pretty sure the two civvie clad blokes are apes.

[Compressorstall]

Cokecan - if you look, the guys in the phot are in flying kit playing the part of aircrew for a JPR exercise, obviously if you are mil aircrew you will know what's going on. You wouldn't get pics of Blades or Shakies on the MoD website since the JPR boys were separate to them.:ugh:

[Melchett01]

They're all mil types, I believe the photo taken during an exercise serial

Well seeing as it has already been said - it was a JPR scenario. The 2 chaps sans head gear have 'been downed' sausage side and are being extracted. Not even the MoD would be daft enough to put up pics of the hooligans on the internet without black bars across their faces :E

[Al R]

Melchett said:

Not even the MoD would be daft enough to..

:oh:

[Melchett01]

Melchett said:


Quote:
Not even the MoD would be daft enough to..



Fair point!

[teeteringhead]

Well here's a 78 Sqn picture with absolutely no security implications.......

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e253/teeteringhead/wx2_1.jpg

[ShyTorque]

'Cept they forgot to put the chocks in, LOL! :p

[teeteringhead]

Chocks are in the right wheel mate ......

...... so the pilot can see them - if they were on the left we'd have forgotten 'em!

The crewman on the transmission deck subsequently became a Puma pilot and was last seen as a civvy QHI at Strawbs....

[Renee the Levitator]

Love the photo of the Walter!! Any chance of the details of the time and place?

[teeteringhead]

Any chance of the details of the time and place?

No problem at all!

22nd January 1971 at Buraimi Oasis (specifically Buraimi Al Ain fort IIRC)

The aircraft was XS 675 - as can be seen from the photo - certainly it can in the original.

For completeness she went out of service from No 84 Sqn in Cyprus,

http://www.demobbed.org.uk/images/xs675.jpg

and was sold to New Zealand - and I think is one of those that has just been re-sold .... don't know where to!