10 Downing Street - Military Deaths Petition

[Tappers Dad]

I have had a petition to 10 Downing Street accepted it reads.

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Hasten the
time it is taking the Oxfordshire coroner to complete the
inquests into military deaths

Bereaved families are having to wait for years for the
Oxfordshire Coroners Office to hold inquests into military
deaths. Ms Harman admitted this week that the situation was
"unacceptable" yet there are 106 military cases to deal with.
In order to stop the morale of the services sinking lower I
urge the Prime Minster to ask The Minister of State, Department
for Constitutional Affairs to intervene and hasten these inquests.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/inquests/

Please take the time to go to and sign the petition, for the sake of all the familys.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tappers Dad,
I've tried, but the link isn't working.
Can you confirm the address is OK?
Thanks
TSM

[Always a Sapper]

Done, naturaly.. but the Petition site is only showing 1 signature, the originators at that? ....

Is No10 at it again? or just another No 10 'IT' WinWin system...... that only supports the great leaders chosen ideas

[Saintsman]

22




I've signed it but if its anything like the road charges one they'll ignore it and Bliar will send you a personal e-mail saying its our fault.

[PPRuNe Pop]

I have now adjusted the link on the thread starter. It seems to be working OK now and I will delete the others.

Good luck.

PPP

[PFR]

Once again, done naturally. I hope it brings a postive result.
Good Luck PFR.

[JessTheDog]

I heard on Radio 4 last week that military deaths will be going into Lyneham instead of Brize as of April 1, and therefore to the Wiltshire coroner...with no additional resourcing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6468171.stm

Perhaps the doggedness of the Oxfordshire deputy coroner in the case of L/Cpl of Horse Matty Hull (unlawful killing) was less than welcome....:mad:

[Winch-control]

Done. Good luck.

[Double Zero]

Tappers' Dad,

done, good luck.

Incidentally how right the previous poster was about the Oxfordshire Deputy Coroner re. the A-10 'attack'- seems highly likely to be a major career limiting move on his part but he has the b*lls !

If anyone knows his details, in a discreet non creepy sort of way, he should get a slap on the back from 'normal' people - even those with no knowledge of military whatsoever could recognise he was not just being a 'nice quiet lad' - should be next PM !...

[woptb]

Done,
Good Luck.

[reddeathdrinker]

Signed, gladly.

[cornish-stormrider]

and me. Its now 67

[donardboy]

Done,

Well done and Good Luck

[NimAGE139]

Signed with pleasure. Passed the link onto as many ex RAF and serving guys I know.

Good Luck!

[etonrifle]

Done and best of luck.
ER

[The Swinging Monkey]

Done now.
Thanks and best wishes
Mr & Mrs TSM

[sharmine]

Done. I am also concerned that the move to Lynham will only add to the delay.

Why aren't these inquests dealt with at the units base which is where the family are more likely to be. Or even better why not hold them at a place requested by Next of Kin. Seems barking to me to expect folks to travel to Oxford if they want to be at the inquest only adding to their pain and Grief.

Sharmine

[stillin1]

signed :ok: .

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Done,

SBG

[Gainesy]

Sorted, now at 76 signatures.

[airborne_artist]

Done earlier this am, and sent round my Artists' network, some of whom have signed up very fast I see.

[Almost_done]

Signed and the list is now at 84

[theotherhalf]

Done. Its hard enough as it is. The coroners are working under ridiculous constraints, they need all the help they can get in their efforts to give the families the answers, and to allow the fallen to have some peace.

[Rigchick]

Done and Good Luck. Hopefully someone will take notice.

[airborne_artist]

TD - is this on ARRSE? I don't want to duplicate what you may have already done.

[X767]

Done. Best of Luck

[barnstormer1968]

Tapper's dad. thank you for your email. Reply already sent to you. Both Barnstormer and his eldest son have signed with pleasure.
I hope most Ppruner's would agree that you have every right to be a proud father of Tapper. But can, and also should be proud of your effort to make military flying safer for ALL in the future, through you calm, honourable and level headed approach to what is a very personal campaign for you.
Barnstormer1968

[Dave Angel]

Done.

Good Luck.

[Mr Point]

Up to 152 now.

Mr P.

[30mRad]

Signed up, link passed on to all I know. Hope it makes PM do something.

[PFR]

Would the moderator consider making this a sticky?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Signed!............

[OOpsIdiditagain]

Done. Hopefully there'll be a result this time.

[C130 Techie]

Done

Up to 177 signatures now.

[bwfg3]

signed
despite the limitations of my e-mail system. God bless to all.

[Tappers Dad]

Thanks for your support Guys :D

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Done.

196 signatures.

[Saintsman]

Trapper's dad,

Whilst you have a lot of support here I think you will need to address a wider audience if you want a result.

May I suggest you approach the national newspapers and TV & Radio. They are always after a good story and their publicity may make a difference.

Regards

Saintsman

[1.3VStall]

TD

Duly signed - good luck!

[Tappers Dad]

Thanks Saintsman already done that, all the tv companies and all the redtops +times and telegraph.

[cornish-stormrider]

Whats the count up to now? I am struggling with this accursed pc of mine, maybe its got a virus that its trying to give to Mr Bliar.

Tappers Dad, if you keep fighting, we will keep supporting and doing what we can.

[Padraig Murphy]

Done last count 221 when I left 30mins ago is it okay to pass the link out to other ISK colleagues and RAF friends who may not be on or aware of this forum?

[Tappers Dad]

Yes Padraig please do , I have had a write up in the local paper. I have posted in on my son,s site . http://www.benknight.co.uk/news.htm

Thanks again for everyones support.

[Army Mover]

Signed - best of luck with your petition.

[Papa Whisky Alpha]

I Have Just Posted - 248 To Date - Keep Signing.

Gary A's Dad

[janeth1068]

Signed. Good luck

[MrFlibble]

Just signed up. Lets hope this turns out okay, and that the crew of XV230, and all the other losses we've had to suffer, are recognized.

[Tappers Dad]

There has been 3,083 views of this thread, so there should be at least 2000 signitures But there aren't.COME ON GUYS SIGN THE PETITION:confused:

[VuctoredThrest]

I'm in.

Best of luck with it.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Papa Whiskey Alpha

Check your pms

[sled dog]

Added my signature . Good luck .

Sled Dog

[Brian Dixon]

Petition now stands at 274 signatures, and I'm proud to be one of those named.

Good luck to you, Mr Knight.

Respectfully,
Brian :D

[ThreadBaron]

Tappers Dad
:ok:

[Stretch182]

Just signed - Good Luck Tappers Dad -current count is 277

Have forwarded an email about this to all of EC & SM Wing ATC (Where Q was a cdt) in the hope of drumming up some more support.

[pulse1]

I see on the News today that all casualties will now be brought into Lyneham. It will now be the Wiltshire coroner who will hold inquests. This was put across as a move to improve the situation but is probably due more to runway work at Brize.

Signed today.

[Hoots]

added,

good luck

[Tappers Dad]

Thanks Stretch182 the more people that sign the more pressure.

Thanks pulse1 ,yes as from 1st April all new cases will go to Whiltshire ,however all the cases up to this date will be heard in Oxford. Oh and the Whiltshire coroner is not getting any extra resources.

We have made the front page + pages 8 & 9 of the Western Daily Press today.
http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=146238&command=displayContent&sourceNode=146064&contentPK=17047857&folderPk=100268&pNodeId=145795

[maniac55]

Back to the top.

Count is now 315.

[cornish-stormrider]

Not been stickied so I believe the term is Boooiiinnnggg.

That should put it to the top of the list again.

Tappers Dad, Keep up the Good Works Sir.

[Shack37]

CSR
Agreed, should be stickied so here goes another boiiiiing.
Keep fighting Tappers Dad
S37

[cornish-stormrider]

Over 3000 views and about a 10% sign-up rate.

This poor level of support is disgraceful. Gentlemen, I do feel its time to put a signature on this petition. The bottom line is that we owe it to our fallen comrades to ensure that they have the proper care taken over them. If that means they need an inquest or specialist enquiries done then we owe it to them and their families. How much more will those Bean counting spineless Ar$e munchers get to trim off from the defense budget and associated care??

Its time to make a stand.

Oh, and Booiiiiiinnnggggg again

Mr Moderator sir, any chance of giving this one a sticky please??

[daze_gone_buy]

339 now so far

Good luck

[Wessex Boy]

Added Mine, good work TD

[XW420]

356's in :ok:

Is there a separate petition for Wiltshire, or do we have to wait for the backlog?

[Ivor Fynn]

Done,

Ivor

[Tigs2]

Done


Guys it took me less than a minute. If every serviceman/woman who peruse this forum signs it will be a great thing. God forbid if you were the next to bite it in the sandpit, would you want your family waiting four years to find out what happened?

Thanks Tappers Dad
Good luck

[PFR]

Just a post to put this back at the top. Could I ask again if this topic be given a sticky - especially considering the sad events at Lyneham today.

We must do better for our fallen & there families.
PFR.

[Tappers Dad]

382 Signatures now . Come on make this a sticky, just look what happened yesterday the petition with 3000 signitures calling for the "naming and sacking" of whoever authorised the sale of the sailors stories got Tony Blair talking about it . So sign the petition and lets get him to take some action.
Thanks

[Tigs2]

Tappers Dad
has this thread been advertised om AARse and Rum Ration??

[Chugalug2]

Duly done TD, good luck with righting this scandal! Thread duly elevated again.
Regards Chug

[difar69]

Back to the top!!!

[MReyn24050]

Tappers Dad
A thread has been opened on the Army Aviation Web site http://www.contact.armyaviation.co.uk giving the petition reference.

[N Joe]

Signed up - hope it helps.

N Joe

[cornish-stormrider]

Boooiiinnnngggg

Sign the petition

[moosemaster]

Done, and done.

As mentioned before though, repatriations are now at Lyneham and the Wiltshire Coroners Office, so petition needs updating to get them some support. No dept is geared up to deal with this continued level of repatriation.

Of course, we could always get the flock out of there.

[Scribbly]

Done. 435 now. Keep it up.

[Jizman]

436 now, good luck
:ok:

[Master Gunner]

Signed up and will circulate the link to the contents of my address book. Keep up the good work.

Mr C

[Rude C'man]

Duely done , back to the top ,
Tappers Dad , keep fighting , well done !!

[1 WSOp Wokka]

Signed, rest in peace Mac, a true gent.

[Tappers Dad]

We have made the 500 mark ,onward to the thousand .
Thanks everyone :ok:

We have made it onto the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/6567599.stm

There may be something on a screen near you tonight !!!!

[Tappers Dad]

522 now and hopefully more to come after the press coverage:ok:

[Stretch182]

Tappers Dad

Keep up the fight

Back to the top

[Tappers Dad]

553 now and hopefully more to come .:ok:

[Old Ned]

Done. Bon Chance. Hope TB passes our feelings on to GB!!!

[Tappers Dad]

As the Cornish Stormrider would say

Boooiiinnnngggg

Sign the petition Please

[Tappers Dad]

Armed Forces: Inquests
Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to his statement of 17 April, on service personnel killed on operations: changes to arrangements for repatriation, what assessment he has made of the adequacy of the resources available to the Wiltshire and Swindon coroner to carry out military inquests. [132983]
Mr. Ingram [holding answer 23 April 2007]: The MOD engaged fully with the Wiltshire and Swindon Coroner’s Office and Wiltshire county council during the planning stages to change the repatriation airhead from RAF Brize Norton to RAF Lynham. The Wiltshire and Swindon Coroner plans to transfer as many inquests as he can to the jurisdiction of the “home” coroner.

So why can't the Oxfordshire coroner do the same

[letsgoandfly]

I wish we knew why they can't transfer inquests. But I've signed so it's back to the top again...

[WIWOWessex]

Done

Good Luck

Wiwow + Mrs Wiwow

[Tappers Dad]

Mr Letsgofly
Apparently in Scotland, procurators- fiscal do not have the power to handle overseas deaths.There have talks between Harriet Harman, the constitutional affairs minister, and the Scottish Executive to try to strike a deal that would allow the 450 procurators-fiscal who conduct fatal accident inquiries to have responsibility for inquests. But as yet have got nowhere.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=429802007

[Shack37]

When are the Mods going to acknowledge the numerous requests to make this thread a sticky?
Boiiiiiinnnnnnnggggggg.
To the top where it belongs.
S37

[corfiotpilot]

Tappers,
Its the same situation in Greece, but I must say I thoroughly support your cause! Keep up the good work!
Thanks Guys
Mixales

[Winch-control]

JUST seen Tappers Dad on the news. Admirable. Cant believe how calm he was...I have signed this petition, and after watching this short news piece, can't believe everyone else here would not do so. Mods, please make it a STICKY!!!

[Ayla]

Signed the petition I hope something comes of it.

[CTSHoming]

628 And counting!


Oh, and.............Boiiiiiiiiiiiiing. Just for luck.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Done...

and BOoooiiiing!

[Tappers Dad]

654 people have now signed my petition Ian Liddell-Grainger is on there but no Angus Robertson

[olddog]

One more signature, from a retired Nimrod Mate. RIP Lads.

[TheStrawMan]

Done...

and BOoooiiiing!

[zedder]

Back to the top as the miserable Mods won't make it a sticky. Far more deserving that a Bloody Jaguar farewell!

[cornish-stormrider]

Gents its still stuck at 676. you all owe it to the fallen to sign this one. Mods really ought to have made this a sticky by now. I shall PM them

[cornish-stormrider]

Boooiinnnggggg

[Tappers Dad]

683 now come on guys spread the word.

[cornish-stormrider]

Boooinnnggg

[Tappers Dad]

691 its slowing down guys,spread the word.
PS.I'm was next to ISK yesterday at the Findhorn Foundation. Lovely and quiet with no aircraft noises.

[F'Wx]

Signing as we speak :)

[PPRuNe Pop]

Sorry, but we are trying to reduce the number of stickies. One deserving one was removed a week or two ago. However, you can keep the thread 'moving' by adding to it. It's in your hands!

[PFR]

OK then.............back to the top:ok:

[zedder]

"Sorry, but we are trying to reduce the number of stickies. One deserving one was removed a week or two ago."

So why is the Jaquar Farewell deemed to be deserving. Look at it's rating for example. The Jaguar Farewell is only of interest to a small percentage of the RAF. The Military Deaths Inquests issue is of interest to all in the RAF, plus of course the rest of the military.

[Shack37]

Signed yonks ago but if boing it must, boing it be.
BTW, can one sign more than once?
S37

[cornish-stormrider]

I believe signing a petition more than once negates its purpose. however we all have mates and email, whynot email them the link to the petition and ask if they'd mind giving you a signature as a favour if they support it!!!

oh and Boooooiiiiiiinnnngg

[Shack37]

Great idea CSR, emails to mates starts here.
Can't believe that sqn watches and farewell to the jag can go above the petition.

Boooiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnggggggggg.
S37

[ZOFO]

701, up we go!!!

[PFR]

and again PFR.....:rolleyes:

[H5N1]

Job done and well worth it!

[chappie]

will sign and pass on the word. i set up a petiton last year campaigning for explosive suppressant foam to be fitted in all british hercules aircraft after the loss of my brother and nine very fine men when their hercules crashed in iraq in jan 05. in the end i got just shy of 3000 signatures. i will put out my feelers to see if i can asist in any way. if you need any media contacts PM me and i will be only too happy to help.

whilst i agree that something has to be done about the brize situation, i feel it will only be a matter of time before the wiltshire coroner is in the smae predicament. to instigate such a move with no support, resources or funding to facilitate an improved service is pointless and will only be a short term fix, if that. :ugh:the service is stretched already. we lost our loved ones jan 05. the pre inquest reiview was held at the end of feb...07! we await now another pre inquest review and then the inquest. 2 years plus and it still goes on.:D

keep up the good work...keep the faith!

[Dave Angel]

Boing :ok:

[zedder]

For the 'mods' that claim there are too many stickys to make this one, perhaps you should look again at the Chinook sticky where there has been no post since 17th April. Perhaps that one has finally run it's course.

Even though inquests into Military deaths have been moved to the Wiltshire coroner's office, as a previous poster pointed out, all they have done is create some temporary breathing space. People are still dying on the frontlines out in Iraq and Afghanistan, so the problem has not gone away at all.

[PFR]

Back to the top:rolleyes: People need to keep signing:ok:

[XferSymbol]

Signed.

708

[Wader2]

This petition is logical and the Government should address the problem not least because it doubles up the bad news.

Bad when the deaths happen.

Bad when the inquest is ajourned.

Bad when reconvened.

and Bad.

It would be better for all concerned if the process was kept as short as possible commensurate with the due process of investigation.

[Spikey T]

Signed, good luck.

Spikey

[cornish-stormrider]

Boooiiinnnnggggg

[PFR]

me thinks this needs to be up the front again.......:ok:

[helpmaboab]

kinloss pvr'r done it to.:mad:

[XferSymbol]

Back to the top again.

Thought a few more would have added their name to this by now. Has the link been posted on the Army/Navy and on EGoat?

[Maple 01]

It's all over e-goat, Rum Ration and PPRuNe and it came form ARRSE, however, feel free to invade any other forums that may be sympathetic

[PFR]

Back to the front...............:ok:

[Tappers Dad]

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=750822007

Scottish courts may get power to examine overseas military deaths

SCOTTISH soldiers killed abroad could have the investigations into their deaths held in Scotland rather than the south of England, in the first transfer of powers from Westminster to Holyrood after the Scottish elections..........
Lets hope they do sooner rather than later

[XferSymbol]

Once more.......

[Shack37]

Seems to be slipping again.
Boooooiiiiinnnnnggggg
S37

[XferSymbol]

Any chance of this thread becoming 'sticky'?

In the nicest possible sense of course.

[Shack37]

Seems to have slipped back down the line a bit fellas:*
747 so far, need some more, like lots more:ok:
s37

[Tappers Dad]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6294112.stm
Funding gap for UK troop inquests
Thursday, 12 July 2007,

Inquests are held in the UK for soldiers killed while serving abroad
The government has not provided further funds to the coroner investigating the deaths of British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, the BBC has learned.
Jane Scott, leader of Wiltshire County Council, fears there could be problems ahead for families of the bereaved.
She said: "I am surprised they haven't learned their lesson from Oxfordshire and they just haven't reflected it in funding in Wiltshire when we wrote to them saying that we would have the same pressures on our service as Oxfordshire did."
More than 220 UK service personnel have died in Iraq and Afghanistan since operations began in both countries.

[Tappers Dad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_6890000/newsid_6895700?redirect=6895783.stm&news=1&nbwm=1&bbram=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_6890000/newsid_6895700?redirect=6895783.stm&news=1&nbwm=1&bbram=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1)

Extra money for inquest (http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6890000/newsid_6895700/6895783.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1#)
The government has pledged today that extra money will be given to a Wiltshire Coroner conducting military inquests.

See me having my say !!

[Da4orce]

The Government is a disgrace, you can bet the coroner had gone through all the correct channels to ask for additional funding before he felt it necessary to go to the press. Then when they know they will look bad in the press the Government say we'll give him what he wants. An absolute disgrace and it makes me ashamed to be British. :mad:

[Papa Whisky Alpha]

Although the BBC announced that funding would be provided it seemed that they were referring to the Wiltshire Coroner, my understanding was that Oxford wasn't mentioned.

[30mRad]

Didn't the government say they'd give the army all the kit they required to do the job in Iraq and Afghanistan (notably more helicopters) and they're still waiting? So what do you think Harriet Harman meant when she said all the coroner needs to do is tell them what he needs and he'll have it?! :ugh:

[Tappers Dad]

Thursday 12 July 2007
More MPs are asking when the Inquests are going to be completed

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/cgi-bin/newhtml_hl?DB=semukparl&STEMMER=en&WORDS=harriet%20harman%20inquest&ALL=&ANY=&PHRASE=&CATEGORIES=&SIMPLE=harriet%20harman%20inquests&SPEAKER=&COLOUR=red&STYLE=s&ANCHOR=muscat_highlighter_first_match&URL=http://www.commonsleader.co.uk/output/page2049.asp#muscat_highlighter_first_match

Mrs. Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con):
Talking of scrutiny, there is a backlog of 109 inquests into the deaths of servicemen and women serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. Last October, the right hon. and learned Lady was responsible for the inquests. Then, she said that the backlog was "unacceptable" and would be "sorted out", but that has not happened, and the backlog has caused considerable distress to bereaved families. Will the Secretary of State for Justice come to the House urgently to make a statement on what he will do to sort out that backlog?


Ms Harman: I look forward to working with the right hon. Lady, and I say to her and to the whole House that it is right for all Members of the House to hold Ministers to account. I expect the House to do that, and as Leader of the House I will protect it in doing exactly that. She asked me about the important issue of inquests for those members of the armed forces who have tragically lost their lives in Iraq. There will be questions to the Secretary of State for Justice before the House rises for the summer recess, and no doubt the issue will be raised then, but I remind the House that we did act to ensure that there were no delays to those inquests.
We gave the Oxfordshire coroner the resources to appoint two assistant deputy coroners to expedite those inquests. On inquests for those whose bodies have been repatriated to RAF Lyneham, which comes under the jurisdiction of the Wiltshire coroner, the Government and I made it clear that we will not allow a backlog to arise in the way that it did in Oxfordshire. If the Wiltshire coroner makes it clear what resources are necessary, those resources will be forthcoming. We are all absolutely clear that we cannot have delays to inquests. Indeed, when I was Minister of State at the Ministry of Justice I wrote to the Wiltshire coroner and asked him whether he would like to have a meeting with my officials so that we could establish what extra resources, if any, he needed, and provide those resources. No backlog has built up since RAF Lyneham took over from Brize Norton, but my colleagues in the Ministry of Justice are taking the issue seriously.

Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) (LD):
On serious matters, one of which was touched on by the right hon. Member for Maidenhead, Liberal Democrat Members continue to share the concern about inquests into the deaths of those killed on active service abroad. If necessary, can we have a statement before the end of term? I am grateful for what the Leader of the House said, but there is widespread concern that there should be no delays.

Ms Harman:
As regards the very important question of inquests for those in our armed services who have tragically lost their lives in Iraq, we have the Coroners Bill in the legislative programme that we will debate before the House rises. The problems that arose in Oxfordshire that caused so much heartache to bereaved relatives and were very difficult to sort out would not have arisen in such a way if the coroners legislation were already in force. The Bill is an important one that will do much to remedy the situation. I reaffirm that there is not a backlog of inquests in Wiltshire arising from the fact that bodies are now repatriated to RAF Lyneham. Officials in the Justice Department will discuss with the Wiltshire coroner how they can keep up to date and ensure that he has the resources he needs.

[Tappers Dad]

Please try to get more to sign .

Thanks




http://www.4orce10.co.uk/coroner.gif

[PFR]

How's this doing? Needs to be up front again me thinks. Our service personnel & their families deserve better...............PFR

[CleartoFire]

Done, Gladly. Had a particular mate whose family suffered a long wait for closure.

good luck and spread the word.:D

[Windbag]

Signed and emailed to all that I can think of.

God Bless & Good Luck

WB:D

[m3181]

signed
779

[Da4orce]

The campaign has got some good press in the Daily Telegraph today. :ok:


Bereaved families have petitioned (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/inquests/) Gordon Brown to stop the "absolutely appalling" wait for military inquests into their loved ones' deaths, it was disclosed yesterday.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/23/ninquest123.xml

http://www.4orce10.co.uk/coroner.gif (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/inquests/)

[Tappers Dad]

WHAT IS A BACKLOG?

A spokesman for the Ministry of Justice, which is responsible for inquests, said: "When [former constitutional affairs minister] Harriet Harman reported the backlog to Parliament in May 2006 there were 86. She said that was unacceptable. That figure is down to 14 at Oxford."

He said the total of 121 outstanding inquests was not a "backlog" and added there was no backlog with the Wiltshire coroner, who is dealing with 51 military inquests.

[fantaman]

Gladly signed and bumped back up to the top of the page, good luck :ok:

[Chugalug2]

Tappers Dad: WHAT IS A BACKLOG?
There is no Backlog, no Overstretch, and soon thanks to "DIN" there will be a marked decrease in dissatisfaction expressed by those serving with the policies of this government! If these buffoons fool anyone now it is only themselves. Treat their assurances with the contempt that they deserve TD, and carry on with your search for the real truth. Good luck!
P.S. Already signed up!
Chug

[Da4orce]

811

Lets top a thousand

http://www.4orce10.co.uk/coroner.gif (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/inquests/)

[chappie]

i am so sorry that it has taken me sooo long to sign the petition. i have been a bit of a pleb recently thanks to baby hormones and so i thought i'd already done it!!!i have now and will get in contact with my contacts from MFAW (military families against war) to see that all that can be will be done. i'll contact rose gentle and co to round the troops as it were to get this going again. i will also get in contact with those who i have contact with who i know as a result of losing my brother in iraq in jan 05 on the herc. we are represented by the wiltshire coroner but like so many familes we are waiting, and waiting and waiting. we are all family within the military and at times like this we should pull together, god knows we are all in the same boat.it is a travesty of course that the MoD and government are unable to thinkthat way too and it would seem in their eyes that when our loved ones ceased to exist then so did we. not so my friend!!! i for one have been more than vocal and become known to the government and senior officials and initiated my own e petition to protect the hercules aircraft with a much needed safety system. if you need any contacts i will try and help. i'll also email everyone i can and will promise to do my best to help. shame the same can't be said of the government ministers.

most importantly......keep the faith. you are not alone!

[LongLive206Sqn]

Only just found it. Signed today. TD - keep the pressure on - we're all behind you.

[Tappers Dad]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/20/ninquest120.xml

Hercules inquest leaves families 'in limbo'
20th Sept 2007



Families of 10 servicemen whose Hercules plane was shot down by Iraqi insurgents have accused the Government of keeping them "in limbo" after it emerged that they will have to wait three years to find out how their loved ones died.

Yesterday there was confusion over the cause of the delay.
The coroner hearing the case said officials from the Ministry of Defence were sifting through witnesses' interviews and crash reports to decide what they would block under the Official Secrets Act.
David Masters, the Wiltshire coroner, insisted that the families were supportive of the process, adding: "No one wishes to put UK forces serving in Iraq or Afghanistan in jeopardy. These documents are of a sensitive nature."
But the Ministry of Defence claimed the coroner was still reading its own Board of Inquiry reports.

Sarah Chapman, the sister of one airman, Flight Sergeant Bob O'Connor, said she was "incensed" by the delay. "The grieving process cannot be completed until the inquest process has been," she said. "In today's society is it really acceptable that families are left to wait until such questions are answered? We are all finding it extremely frustrating to be in a state of limbo."
John Cooper, a barrister representing four of the families, said they would be "terribly disappointed" by the news.

[Al R]

Chappie said;

i am so sorry that it has taken me sooo long to sign the petition. i have been a bit of a pleb recently thanks to baby hormones and so i thought i'd already done it!!!i have now and will get in contact with my contacts from MFAW (military families against war) to see that all that can be will be done. i'll contact rose gentle and co to round the troops as it were to get this going again. i will also get in contact with those who i have contact with who i know as a result of losing my brother in iraq in jan 05 on the herc. we are represented by the wiltshire coroner but like so many familes we are waiting, and waiting and waiting. we are all family within the military and at times like this we should pull together, god knows we are all in the same boat.it is a travesty of course that the MoD and government are unable to thinkthat way too and it would seem in their eyes that when our loved ones ceased to exist then so did we. not so my friend!!! i for one have been more than vocal and become known to the government and senior officials and initiated my own e petition to protect the hercules aircraft with a much needed safety system. if you need any contacts i will try and help. i'll also email everyone i can and will promise to do my best to help. shame the same can't be said of the government ministers.

most importantly......keep the faith. you are not alone!


No Chappie, you are not represented by the Coroner.. the Coroner is paid for at public expense and represents the dead person, to determine the cause of death of a deceased in cases where the death was sudden, unexpected, occurred overseas etc. You are represented by a privately employed solicitor, if you choose to do so.

I appreciate and sympahise with the suffering any family feels when they lose a loved one, but I object to the politicisation and hijacking by the deceased person's family, simply to prove an (invariably) personal point. You do NOT represent Military Families, you represent some military families and I very much doubt, many of the beliefs of those who died anyway. By all means object to the war, by all means campaign for improvements.. but do it on your own 2 feet, and not with the implied caveat that if anyone isn't 'with' you, they're for war, which is of course, absolute bollocks and cynically aimed at exploiting people's emotions and unfairly swaying opinion.

Cheers. :cool:

[Chugalug2]

Well, A1 R, someone is talking "absolute bollocks", but I very much doubt if it is Chappie. In what way do you claim that she has used “politicisation and hijacking by the deceased person’s family” (whatever that mouthful means)? To my knowledge she has called for ESF to be fitted to all the Hercules Fleet, being greatly instrumental in the near total success of that campaign, and she has called for speeding up the process of Coroners’ Courts investigating the circumstances of the deaths abroad of those who have died (like her brother) in the service of their country. She has done so because in the first case the MOD was damned if it was going to spend good money on ESF, and in the second case because the inordinate delay in Coroners dealing with and concluding their investigations into our service dead is a national disgrace. Which part of that is politicisation? If she has common cause in those aims with those campaigning on a political front, so what? The luxury of never tainting oneself with those of differing views is not one she can afford, any more than this country could in WW2. “My enemy’s enemy is my friend”. Good military maxim that A1 R, worthy of study!
Now you may ally yourself with HMG in this situation, Lord knows they need someone on their side, but characterising Chappie as not sharing “many of the beliefs of those who died” is an unacceptable insult, especially when aimed at the bereaved, and should be retracted with an apology immediately, wouldn’t you say? How do you know what she believes or doesn’t, other than what she has revealed? What business is it of you, me, or anyone else anyway? All I know is she has "stood on her own two feet" in these fights on behalf of those who serve and their families, until the demands of a difficult pregnancy obliged her to do otherwise, I can only speak for myself when I say I have been filled with admiration for her courage and drive over the past year or so. The military family owes her a great debt. You A1 R owe her an apology!

[SOTV]

Signed.


SOTV.

[PFR]

Glad to see this is back at page1. Was getting worried this was being forgotten:sad:
Pressure on chaps:ok: It's the least Our Fallen deserve, PFR.

[Al R]

Chugalug said lots, including;
Well, A1 R, someone is talking "absolute bollocks", but I very much doubt if it is Chappie. In what way do you claim that she has used “politicisation and hijacking by the deceased person’s family” (whatever that mouthful means)? To my knowledge she has called for ESF to be fitted to all the Hercules Fleet, being greatly instrumental in the near total success of that campaign, and she has called for speeding up the process of Coroners’ Courts investigating the circumstances of the deaths abroad of those who have died (like her brother) in the service of their country. She has done so because in the first case the MOD was damned if it was going to spend good money on ESF, and in the second case because the inordinate delay in Coroners dealing with and concluding their investigations into our service dead is a national disgrace. Which part of that is politicisation? If she has common cause in those aims with those campaigning on a political front, so what? The luxury of never tainting oneself with those of differing views is not one she can afford, any more than this country could in WW2. “My enemy’s enemy is my friend”. Good military maxim that A1 R, worthy of study!
Now you may ally yourself with HMG in this situation, Lord knows they need someone on their side, but characterising Chappie as not sharing “many of the beliefs of those who died” is an unacceptable insult, especially when aimed at the bereaved, and should be retracted with an apology immediately, wouldn’t you say? How do you know what she believes or doesn’t, other than what she has revealed? What business is it of you, me, or anyone else anyway? All I know is she has "stood on her own two feet" in these fights on behalf of those who serve and their families, until the demands of a difficult pregnancy obliged her to do otherwise, I can only speak for myself when I say I have been filled with admiration for her courage and drive over the past year or so. The military family owes her a great debt. You A1 R owe her an apology!


There you go.. because I've had the audacity to question her, I'm a pro HMG stoolie (if you're not with us etc.. :rolleyes:). I stand by what I say. My comments are not a reflection of her personal qualities either, or her ability to press for C130 safety, so don't you go joining the queue lining up with your big dollop of emotional blackmail.

And how the hell do you know that those who died would have wanted them to do what they were doing? It was aimed clearly at those who hijack their lives and deaths to vent their political spleens.. as I recall, I didn't mention any of the work she has done on C130 safety either, for that she is to be applauded.

I stand by my comments about their self righteous and assuming org naming, and I stand by the fact that the coroner does not represent them. I also think that most sane people will realise that when I was using the word 'you', I was referring to the organisation, and not her as an individual. By all means stand up to be counted, but I wonder how many military families are actually in 'Military Families against the War' and just how representative it is, and whether they have other issues other than THE WAR, such as the recent Headley Court battle, or improving military housing? If, as I suspect, it is a one shot, single issue concern, thankfully, these idiots will soon fade away. I grieve for their loss, I accept thery need closure.. BUT THEY DO NOT REPRESENT THE MILITARY FAMILY NETWORK, and I despise their hijacking of it in such a cackhanded manner.

[Chugalug2]

Well you had your chance Al R, and you come out with ever more spleen venting. You seem to be implying that you were attacking, sorry questioning, not Chappie, but MFAW, though I didn't see a single question in your first post, simply a tirade about coroners, hijacking and caveats. From where I am your posts are both out of order, especially on this thread. Do you ever stop to read what you have written before you post? You seem to be filled with a lot of anger, and I am the first to admit that there is a lot to be angry about if one is serving in HM Forces at the moment. But directing that anger against someone who has suffered as Chappie has, and still finds the strength to campaign for those still serving and their loved ones is simply bizarre. All she said was that she would contact those in MFAW that she knows to support this petition. I don't know if she belongs to MFAW herself, as if it matters. She wasn't pushing their agenda, merely trying for them to support this campaign. I suggest a lot more sitting on your hands while you assess things, for you seem to be shooting at the wrong target IMHO. Whether Chappie wishes to respond to you is up to her. I'm done. Oh, except to say that I know that Chappie also supported the Headley Court campaign as well. Check the thread, check her previous posts and you will see where she is coming from. Something that you might better have done before you posted here, perhaps?

[Al R]

You seem to have some difficulty with oxygen starvation. Perhaps if you climbed down off your soapbox and took a few deep breaths? Firstly, I (once again, because you had difficulty reading it before) have nothing but admiration for anyone who takes on an issue such as flight safety for those still flying. I take my hat off to them. That she has done it whilst in gestation marks her out as a person of resolve and commitment. We need more like her on the current board of RAF directors.

Secondly, my issue is with the arseholes who wrap themselves up in a banner (and it IS politicised) proclaiming themselves to represent Military Families against THE WAR When clearly, they have no such mandate to do so. Now, if they wanted to call themselves 'Pro Rata, and frankly speaking, a few relatives or families against the g'ment intervention in Iraq', I wouldn't mind so much, because we would know where they were coming from and who they really represented. Or if they wanted to call themselves 'People against WAR', then fine.. no problems. But the naming was done in a cynical attempt to cause embarrassment to the MoD and misslead, and thats what I've got an issue with, oh.. and the statement which suggested the Coroner was 'theirs', when clearly, he isn't came from her and that was wrong. Perhaps you could comment on that before getting off your high horse/soap box?

A visit to the MFaTW website shows just how politicised they are. I didn't see any talk of anything other than Goerge Bush's "failed surge" and pulling troops back from the Iranian border. The sooner this woman distances herself from such banal, cynical and exploitative political tripe, that just feeds off the raw emotions of those who are particularly vulnerable especially after feeling grievous loss, the better. They claim to have the support of 300 families, err.. just how representative of the military community is that again?

There have been many loss filled loved ones, rightly so, decrying the lack of body armour and the like (I was once one of those deemed worthy of receiving someone elses bpdy armour, so I can see it from both sides) and much much dignity.. more so than I would probably show. And frankly, you have no idea what my perspective or history is, yet you are all to quick to label me a HNG stoolie because I have the temerity to dissagree with you.

Frankly, kiss my arse.

Cheers.

[Chugalug2]

Well, progress at last Al R. Some kind words for Chappie, and your invective aimed instead at MFAW, for whom I hold no brief, and myself which is water off a duck's back! So now perhaps it might be a good idea to re-read your posts, see where you might have jumped to the wrong conclusions about Chappie's post, and then apologise to her!

[Al R]

Please post ANYTHING I have written which I need to apologise to her for, or which is factually, objectively (or in anyway), incorrect.

This is al3 of my post.. the first versions of which reflected, to varying levels, on your motives, sanity and grasp of reality.

[Chugalug2]

Al R. This is my last post replying to you, so you get to have the last word, which means you win in your terms I suspect. I'll try to keep this simple. Chappie's post was from her own perspective, ie
we are represented by the wiltshire coroner but like so many familes we are waiting
is referring to her family and others, not MFAW. Whether she is right in legal terms or not is by the way. She feels (with some justification) that the only defence she and others have against the MOD's obscuration is the Coroner, hence he is her "representative". Having confused yourself on that issue, you go on to compound it by saying:
you represent some military families and I very much doubt, many of the beliefs of those who died anyway.
You might think that by "you" you meant MFAW, but she isn't MFAW she is herself, and to someone who lost her brother in the tragedy that is again before the coroner, that is a very hurtful thing to read.
It seems to me you saw MFAW and a red mist came down. Well that is your problem, but the resultant post is ours (the PPRune community's) when it can hurt the vulnerable. I suggest you do the decent thing, admit you misread Chappie's post, apologise for any distress it may have caused, and we can all move on. I know you guys do a lot of "banter", we civvies don't. Chappie is a civvie, but a friend of the Service Family. Accord her the respect that she deserves. Message ends. Out.

PS I'm sorry that I said:
Now you may ally yourself with the MOD in this
I didn't then understand where you were coming from. There are many apologists on this forum for Browne's circus. You are not one of them. I was wrong. I am sorry. See? Its easy!

[Al R]

Andrew Walker (for example) is a coroner with a fine record of hassling the government for the facts. He does not do it because he feels he represents the families, and for you (or anyone) to suggest that he does, is in danger of subverting the system. Long after the bloody yoghurt knitters in MFaTW have latched on to another axe to grind, the coroners system will still be living with the consequences of being labelled anti g'ment 'stoolies', or 'puppet'.. to coin your vernacular. See, they can't win? The only way for them to maintain their independendance is NOT to be adopted by the families, or by the system. If the family wants representation, it gets a solicitor which I believe it did, in the case of Matty Hull for instance. This has to be seen to be done too.

As you realise.. this is a military forum, best you start affording us the respect WE deserve. People here say thank you and sorry each day probably more times than you've had hot dinners and certainly for more imprtant reasons than expressing an opinion (in my case, in a respectful manner) which is contrary to someone else's. If so, then you live with it and I'm not sure about you, but I've earned the right to my opinion. I'm one of the lucky ones, unlike the guys who haven't made it back. Believe me, I could fill a book with tales of the MoDs damned incompetence and negligence if I wanted to, and every time my war pension gets paid in, I say thank you and reflect on a career cut short and thank god that it was only a career.

I also believe that for every Typhoon sortie that CAS minces about in, he should feel honour bound to carry out 5 in Afghanistan in an unmodified C130, or carry out a week's air to air refuelling training in Nimrod, if he wants to establish any level of empathy. So read this and take it on board. I'm no one's stoolie, least of all the MoDs and I don't need the likes of you trying to tell me what I should and shouldn't say or think. So stop preaching to the converted and coming here, holier than thou, telling me how to behave and think, and prattling on about red mists (I don't 'do' red mists) and the like, simply because I don't fit in with your idea of a perfect world or because I might relate more closely to a world that you cannot even begin to conceive exists. I find it intensely dissrespectful and annoying when the likes of you, and other civvies come along and start telling 'us' how 'we're' being duped by the politicians and 'Brownes circus', how 'we're' engaged in unlawful activities and how 'we' are obviously too stupid to realise for ourselves what is blindingly clear to w#nk organisations like MFaTW.

And finally, you ponitificate about pseudo military maxims? Here's one for you that you won't find in any book.. 'no justice, just us'. Go away and think about it.

Cheers.

[Da4orce]

Back to the point of the thread.... we are up to 846 now

[pr00ne]

AI R

You said...........

"this is a military forum, best you start affording us the respect WE deserve."

AI R, from an ex Flt Lt.....

You are an arrogant git.

[Al R]

Its your opinion chum (thankfully, my annual assessments were a little more informed that yours), just as I'm entitled to mine. I may come across as arrogant, but I'd say in return, you're an assumptive pillock who doesn't know me from Adam, or of my 'tale'. So please don't start making knee jerk reactions about me, based on some posts on an internet site, simply because I don't tell the world.

If you look back, you'll see that my issue with the post to which I responded was a simple one, I had two in fact.. one related to a factual point and one a more subjective one, about those wankers at MFaTW. I was polite, I wasn't insulting to the woman and all I got was grief from some prissy scroat who decided that my opinion wasn't worth salt and that anyone who had the temerity to make a contra point on this should surely be cast into hell.

Well, here's a thing. I've earned the right to express my opinion about the MoD, and the way the MoD treats its people, and I know a little about the judicial process involved here too. However unpalatable it might be to you, I'll express that as I see it. I was still polite.. well, as polite as gnr can be, but if you don't like it.. oh well. :rolleyes:

(edited to make it polite)

[pr00ne]

AI R

I stand corrected and I hereby apologise.

You are not an arrogant git.

You are in fact an offensive, illinformed and ignorant arrogant git.

[Al R]

Illinformed? I have 28 inches of legal files relating to my 9 year action against the MoD, and I've dragged a stn cmdr before the small claims court. Trust me my little learned friend.. illinformed I aint.

Offensive? Rather that than being a sanctimonious tit (thats you by the way).

Arrogant? Granted, but justifiably so.

Ignorant? Here' a tip. Never ask a question or make a statement you don't know the answer to. I wonder how many hours you gave up to collect for the Legion, service charities, design and print leaflets, and to help disabled (for many reasons) squaddies get to the shops, doctors and to British Legion legal clinics last year without shouting about it.

Now. If you want to allow this to descend into a pi$$ing contest, fine.. crack on. But please feel free to check back and once again. My sentiment was aimed at a factual innacuracy (which I stand by) and comments about a wank tosspot organisation (again, which I stand by). At no stage did I say anything to insult the lady who has in the most awful of circumstances, lost her brother. As I heard mention earlier.. he might be in better hands now, but I'm sure she'd rather he was still in 'ours'.

Finally, and before I rest, you pious tit, kiss my big hairy ex rockape arse.

(I will call that not suffering fools gladly, you will call it arrogance. Thats quits I feel).

[airsound]

Al R

When I read your bitter, twisted, vitriolic and misleading attack on Chappie on 21 sep, I was so taken aback that I couldn’t immediately see how to respond to you. I’m glad that Chugalug (and some others) have taken up the cudgels against your unreasonable spleen, and I can understand why Chug now feels it is time to rest his case.

But, in answer to one of your points:
Please post ANYTHING I have written which I need to apologise to her for, or which is factually, objectively (or in anyway), incorrect.
How about
I object to the politicisation and hijacking by the deceased person's family, simply to prove an (invariably) personal point. You do NOT represent Military Families, you represent some military families and I very much doubt, many of the beliefs of those who died anyway.
Now, bearing in mind that this was addressed directly to Chappie, perhaps you should consider that she was posting on a thread entitled “Military Deaths Petition”. Her post was about signing the petition, and getting others to do so. I fail to see how you can possibly construe her words as politicisation and hijacking. And as for telling her she doesn’t represent people - where did you get the idea that she believes she does represent Military Families? She merely said she knew how to contact some of them.

I was going to disagree with you also on the question of who is represented or not by the coroner, but I see that Chugalug has already covered that ground satisfactorily.

I do strongly reinforce the suggestion that you should apologise to Chappie for your disgraceful early series of posts. While you’re about it, you might want to reread your subsequent posts, which seem to have ratcheted themselves up into a self-reverential spiral of ill-considered bile and nastiness.

I have had the privilege of serving with quite a few Rockapes, and I admired them immensely. I am sorry to see that you describe yourself as ‘has been Rockape’ (with or without a big hairy arse). I fear that you are not doing the reputation of the Rocks any good with your behaviour in this thread.

Any Rockapes out there want to disown the unlovely Al?

airsound

[Biggus]

Quote from Al R on another thread, 31 Aug 07.......

"Biggus,

I'll give you a few days to check and report back about how many threads I've been 'insulting' in........."

I guess this will be one more to add to the list then. I believe last time I suggested anger management, to which you replied that I needed to learn to get angry...............

I'll let people make their own minds up......

I have to confess I didn't 'check and report back' as I had better things to do with my time!

[Al R]

Yowza. We are having a bitch fest aren't we?

I've said more than enough about who I was referring to, and also, my thoughts about the lady in question and her resolve. I certainly don't feel the need to justify it any more to a couple more nancy boys, who don't have even the originality to come up with something fresh.

Biggus.. yes, I did suggest you get angry. Let me tell you what I was doing today. I was chatting with an 83/84 (he couldn’t remember) year old ex- rear gunner inbetween Grantham and Lincoln, in fact I spent most of the day with him. Pride of place on his mantlepiece was a picture of him being introduced to Prince Charles in 1969 when he was a Warrant Officer. He was reminding me that once upon a time, RAF officers stood up for their men when it was needed and they wouldn’t HAVE to rely on the likes of petitions and demonstrations and the likes of me having to help him (his home help has been withdrawn) do something as noddy as move furniture, lay a new section of laminate floor, hoover his car and mow his little piece of England. I say that, not to come across as a holier than thou Dudley do right (because I’m not.. I’m an offensive and arrogant tool), but because there are thousands of living ex military servicemen and families in need up and down the country, old servicemen who are living, who are infirm, butwho aren't meeja friendly, who aren't well connected, who aren't urbane or affluent, who don't move in the right circles, who don't have a political mandate, who aren't personable and who are living with the hell, every day, of the consequences of their military service.. from long before this damned war. Who is there to stand up for them?

And I do object to their politicisation of this issue, and I shrug my shoulders at the marginalisation that it has been attracting by yet another faction who want these day (rightly so), their right to know what happened. Why do you think you have this petition facility? I'll tell you why. Because its going to increase the amount of single issue causes to flex their muscles and (boy!).. have their say. And what’s wrong about that I hear you ask. Be under no illusions.. even if the MoD did co operate fully (and lets remind ourselves of the need of the Spams to play ball with them too), the difference in having their day wouldn't be shattering.. coroners nowadays are deluged with lots of single issue grievances.. families such as this lady's, families of elederly folk dying in nursing homes, families of folk dying of hospital induced infection, families of those young men who commit suicide (did you know that more males kill themselves than die in car accidents? The commonest cause of death among those males aged 16 to 35 in the UK, in 2005 with 1,600 deaths incidentally). There is a plethora of demands made on coroners, and the sad part is, that there are just 2 coroners departments who take the brunt, where the remains of our fallen men and women are alighted once they come home. Truth of it is, another petition with a few hundred names is going to do nothing. Think back to the motorists one which got almost 2 million responses and a subsequent cold shoulder.

So, as I have explained on a number of occasions, I was referring to the politicisation of the issue by MFaTW, and, as was accepted by another poster, the word 'you' referred to them in the general sense, and not to her in a personal one. I think I have explained this clearly enough already, as I have my sympathy admiration and feelings towards the lady's resolve too. With regards to the issue of the familiy representation by the coroner, I'd refer you to g'ment guidelines. Where does it say that a coroner exists to represent the deceased person's family? The Coroners Act 1988 is being updated yet again anyway, and even so, it still says sod all about standing up for the family of a dead person.

http://www.dca.gov.uk/corbur/coron05.htm (http://www.dca.gov.uk/corbur/coron05.htm)

A coroner's duties are:

· to investigate the circumstances of the deaths of all persons whose bodies are lying within his or her jurisdiction where he or she has reason to believe that the death was violent, unnatural or of unknown cause
· to decide whether a post mortem examination is necessary for the purpose of his or her investigation and, if so, to give directions to an appropriate medical practitioner
· to hold an inquest, with or without a jury, where he or she is satisfied that he or she is required to do so in accordance with section 8 of the 1988 Act
· to notify the Registrar of Deaths of the findings of the inquest, or, if no inquest is held, of the fact that the death reported to him or her does not need to be subject to an inquest
· to pay the relevant fees and allowances to witnesses and jurors, and to submit accounts to the relevant council
· to make annual returns to the Secretary of State in connection with the inquests held and deaths he or she has enquired into
· to appoint a deputy coroner, and, if required, an assistant deputy coroner.


Finally, I'd just like to say that your and that other idiot's inability to grasp the real issue(s) here will ensure that it stays a single issue/minority issue. Get angry, get cross.. address the issues which count too. It might mean you'll get off your sanctimonious arse and actually get something done rather than snipe in such a gratuitious, shallow, vaccous and dull manner.

[Da4orce]

850 now

http://www.4orce10.co.uk/coroner.gif (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/inquests/)

[Shack37]

850 now

http://www.4orce10.co.uk/coroner.gif (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/inquests/)

DA4orce,

A subtle but clear reminder of what this thread's about. Let's hope they notice and shift the vitriol to Jet Blast.

atb
s37

[nigegilb]

Wow.

Couple of thoughts. There is a potential problem with the Inquest procedure.

Firstly, the families do not receive legal aid. In theory they do not need legal aid because the Coroner's job is to set out the reason for death and make comments. However, the MoD are spending £100,000s on the very best legal advice, hardly an equal playing field. The 2nd point of concern is the fact that all the statements go to the MoD first. The MoD decides the classification and the amount of redaction. Can anyone explain any other legal process where this happens. Politicisation of FOI requests has already occurred with regard to the Nimrod. I am concerned about the free hand given to the MoD to act as self-censor. Thirdly, US Military are refusing to cooperate with the British Inquest system. There is a definite link to the US in this Inquest.

I have every confidence in the Coroner and the Investigation, but I am not surprised about the concern expressed by the families.

Finally, MFAW, Military Families Against the War. Is exactly what it says on the label. A collection of military families against the war. Last time I checked we lived in a democracy. If A1R was/is still serving, he probably noticed that back in August he had a whole load of rights taken off him by this Govt. I hope A1R is not naive enough to think that any of the self-serving Ministers to do the right thing by the families. They have already been asked to sign away their pensions in the event of a compensation pay-out. Don't knock MFAW out of spite, remember we are free and many people died so that we can be.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I am concerned about the free hand given to the MoD to act as self-censor. Thirdly, US Military are refusing to cooperate with the British Inquest system. There is a definite link to the US in this Inquest.

There is nothing new in this. I recall a multiple fatality crash back in 1987(?) where we were told, with no "wiggle room" given, that we were not to speculate about the cause of the accident, we were not to discuss a certain specific failure, (that was broadly believed to be the cause of the crash), and we were not to communicate with the families about the accident. The reason given - it would cause the manufacturer a few embarrassing moments. :rolleyes:

[nigegilb]

In the case of XV179 Inquest, the MoD will have had months to look through the evidence ahead of the actual date of the Inquest. Requests for legal funding for the families have been turned down by the very same MoD indulging in taxpayers coffers for their own defence. The failure of USAF to cooperate will not be a problem for the MoD. Remember they lied about the presence of the HUD video in the Matty Hull Inquest.

Cast your mind back to the Lynx shooting down in Basra. National security was the reason given for the highly redacted BoI. I happen to know there is another reason, similar to that described by AA. I contacted Andrew Walker's Office with regard to the Lynx, he had the information but it remains classified.

The XV179 BoI does not mention SF. If we are down to this level of censorship I am not at all sure we will get the level of openness that this case desperately needs.

[Al R]

Hi,

Respectfully, and I know this will cast me as small minded, but what would you say to those who'd suggest that as a crime wasn’t committed against you, you haven’t committed one and until the inquest returns, there is no evidence that one has been committed anyway.. so objectively, why should legal aid be granted to you? And surely, with limited resources, how would you grade the needs of the likes of Jordon Lyon’s mum and dad, to get to the truth in a greater public interest? Ultimately I suppose, how the MoD spends its legal budget is up to it. It would seem to me, that if they didn’t get the very best legal advice, they’d be thick. As the employer of the dead servicemen and women, they have a duty to find out what happened, and I suppose that the resistance from the US military infuriates them as much as anything. Where we would agree as well, is that you want to know what happened, and you need to know swiftly as possible. The delays are unacceptable and if the MoD is lying, and if they get caught in a lie, they should be lambasted and crucified, mercilessly. There are other ways of going about it though, which may be more effective?

With regards to MFaTW, I’m not knocking it out of spite (I have no reason to be spiteful), so however many words you put in my mouth, remember that they’re still your words :cool:. No, I’m knocking it because it’s a crock of ****. It may be semantic, but be honest with me.. are you a serving military member, and is all of your family against the war? Lets face it.. you are so named because you want to exploit and capitalise on a tenuous connection, and you want to make a political point. Forgive me for being straight, and I don’t wish to appear rude, tasteless or vicious, but if you referred yourselves simply as some people seeking answers in the face of MoD and US obstruction, lies or bull****, or if you’re highlighting deficiencies in logistics, I’d have more respect for ‘you’ (I have to say ‘you’ advisedly, as it caused confusion before). I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in MFaTWs opinions on ‘The War’- its self proclaimed collective mandate as ‘military families’ to speak on it means as much to me as does Bono’s and Bob Geldoff’s thoughts on Africa, simply because they’ve had a #1. Your naming might not be a deceit, but it is certainly (at best) a disingenuous conceit and a cheap and nasty ploy to get yourselves the credibility and recognition you wouldn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of otherwise attracting. The homepage is full of single issue rubbish and tedious rehashed political views and notes from hand wringing mothers having zero respect for their children's freedom to choose a career path without them undermining it. Why should we give a damn about their maternal association???

With regards to your final point, I am no longer serving, but it seems to me that however pointless, petty and counterproductive the measures promulgated in August were, they were no more than a reminder of the Official Secrets Act.. which I happily signed anyway. I have no illusions whatsoever about this damned g’ment and its ministers, but 2 wrongs don’t make a right. It would seem to me too, that the announcement was a waste of time anyway, and don’t forget, the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 allows those with a genuine grievance, or an issue with a potential miscarriage of justice to air, the protection of the law.

Cheers,

al.

[nigegilb]

al, MFAW is highly political. In the past, military families accepted the consequences of war, be they loss of life or terrible injury. These losses were endured, silently. The Iraq War changed everything, quite probably illegal, highly contoversial and carried out in the face of mass protest. It was unprecedented for military families to come together in protest at the loss of their loved ones for a cause deemed illegal. Whilst, their loved ones may have volunteered, many did not agree with the war. Soldiers carry out orders it is their job. However, you cannot simply ignore the reasons that brought about the formation of MFAW. A mother will only allow her son/daughter to join up if she thinks he/she will be looked after. Iraq quite probably broke this trust and UK Military is still suffering in terms of recruitment and retention. The point is that a volunteer force only works through consent. I would struggle to recommend a life in UK AF for my kids at the mo, but what has the Govt done to shore up confidence?

The Army has traditionally recruited from poor, working class neighbourhoods. Don't be surprised by the political backers behind MFAW. See throught it and understand why MFAW came about. It is only by dealing with these issues that confidence will be restored.

The back log of Inquests only underscores the need for a body to pressurize the Govt and accountability to be seen to be achieved.

Take a read of this account from Parliament, and bear in mind that the Crown considers itself immune from charges of Corporate Manslaughter. Then ask yourself if the families deserve the very same legal representation enjoyed by the MoD.

Armed Forces: Steven Roberts Inquiry


3.40 pm

Lord Tyler asked Her Majesty’s Government:


Why the Minister for Europe, Mr Geoff Hoon, formerly Secretary of State for Defence, refused the request of the coroner to give evidence to the inquest into the death of Sergeant Steven Roberts.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Drayson): My Lords, on 14 December, the coroner presiding over the Sergeant Roberts inquest indicated his intention to invite the right honourable Geoff Hoon MP as a witness. Mr Hoon was overseas. The MoD offered a witness who could provide the evidence requested. The coroner and the family’s counsel indicated that the witness fully dealt with their questions, and the coroner confirmed that Mr Hoon’s attendance was not necessary. At no stage did Mr Hoon refuse to give evidence.

Lord Tyler: My Lords, is the Minister aware that Sergeant Roberts came originally from my constituency and that I therefore took his widow and members of his family to see Mr Hoon, who, I have to report to your Lordships’ House, promised a full investigation and full disclosure of his death? Do the Government now accept the conclusion of the coroner that his death was the result of delay and serious failures? The coroner continued:


10 Jan 2007 : Column 226


“I have heard justification and excuse and I put these to one side as I remind myself that Sergeant Roberts lost his life because he did not have that basic piece of equipment”.

Can the Minister confirm the clear inference of the evidence that was given to the inquest: that the deliberate decision to delay the ordering of essential sets of enhanced combat body armour was not a military or, indeed, a Civil Service decision, but was taken by the Secretary of State himself? Can the Minister also confirm the evidence given by Mr David Williams on behalf of the ministry that buying sufficient numbers of ECBA sets would,
“obviously indicate the department was pressing ahead with preparations for war while negotiations were still firmly at the diplomatic stage”?

Can the Minister confirm that this decision was a misguided attempt to distance the MoD from the conservative demand for a pre-emptive strike against Iraq and President Bush’s war preparations? Can the Minister finally confirm that it is not now the habit of his department to allow civil servants to answer for the misjudgment of the Secretary of State?

Lord Drayson: My Lords, I am aware, first, that the noble Lord was the Member for the constituency from which Sergeant Roberts came and I recognise his interest in this matter. He has asked me a number of questions and, with the indulgence of the House, I shall do my best to answer directly the points he made.


I absolutely do not accept that this was a political decision. Having looked at this, I believe that the advice from the military to Geoff Hoon, the Secretary of State at the time, relating to decisions about equipment was the right advice. The decision that he took not to take action on certain elements that would give clear indication of a preparation for military action when a diplomatic process was going on was the right thing to do. We need to recognise, as a number of Members of this House who have held positions within the Ministry of Defence—either as Secretary of State or as ex-chiefs and members of the military—know, that often decisions have to be taken in very difficult circumstances and when there is significant diplomatic pressure. Those decisions have to be made taking acceptance of the risks in the real world. The military has to have the ability to do what is necessary to deal with those realities. I believe that we need to have the political will to take those decisions. We have to ask ourselves whether in future we are going to be prepared to take these kinds of decisions. On this side of the House we have that political will. The kind of questioning of decisions that has taken place in those circumstances degrades the military effectiveness of this country and is not to be pursued.

Lord Bach: My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that lessons have been learnt from this tragedy, that enhanced combat body armour is now the standard body armour issued to all personnel on all operations and that that decision was taken by my right honourable friend Geoff Hoon when he was Secretary of State for Defence?


10 Jan 2007 : Column 227



Lord Drayson: My Lords, my noble friend is right when he says that significant changes have been made to the policy on body armour. Decisions have been taken in the light of the lessons learnt from the tragic death of Sergeant Roberts—and, if I may say so, I am personally sorry for the death of Sergeant Roberts. His death has led to lessons being learnt. The most important lessons have concerned body armour policy and the provision of that armour. All our troops on operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are now provided with enhanced combat body armour. We have developed the new Kestrel system, which provides protection for top-cover sentries. We have developed the Osprey system, to have the flexibility to meet threats. Lessons have also been learnt regarding logistics and the tracking system. These are a direct result of the “lessons learned” exercise that took place after Operation TELIC and they have been implemented.

Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, I appreciate that the Minister was not there when this happened, but I find his answer most surprising. The Government’s strategy at that time was to try and convince Saddam Hussein that if he did not comply with UN resolutions, he would face military action. So the right action to take was to give convincing evidence that military action was likely to take place, including preparing our forces for action if it came to that. It is absolutely tragic that the political decision was taken to somehow conceal the build-up to military action, which was counterproductive for the Government’s own policy at that time, which they have avowed to this House and to the country. I cannot accept the answer the Minister has given.

Lord Drayson: My Lords, with deep respect for the noble Lord’s experience, this was not a political decision. The military was considering and advising on elements of the equipment list. To order substantial numbers of further body armour pieces beyond the number held in stock—approximately 13,000 at the time, if I recall correctly—would have sent a clear signal about the particular type of operation being contemplated. With the political process as it was, it was judged that that was not the right thing to do. Once the United Nations Security Council resolution had been taken, that was progressed.

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, my noble friend’s point was precisely that; it was a political judgment, and the Government’s judgment was wrong. Indicating that this was going to go ahead would have put pressure on Saddam Hussein to capitulate. Surely the Minister can understand that point and should address it.

Lord Drayson: My Lords, I fully understand the point—I just disagree with it. The point is that a judgment was taken by the Secretary of State at that time in that post, based on the military advice we had at the time. Having looked at that decision in the circumstances, I believe that it was right. I also respect people saying that they believe that it was the wrong decision, but to say that it was politically motivated is just plain wrong.


10 Jan 2007 : Column 228

The Army had requested ECBA to be ordered months before the invasion. Hoon sat on the requests while negotiations took placeand when the order for ECBA finally went in there was not enought time to issue the kit to everyone who needed it. A political decision indeed. Hoon has moved along and hides from his decision making. Accountability? Crown Immunity, Combat Immunity, self censorship, refusal to attend Inquests, refusal to provide legal support to the families. Fair few grievances there Al. When you signed the OSA I doubt UK Govt had signed up to the HRA. Think you might find a fair few breaches of HRA in the August DIN.

I had better sign that petition.

[Tappers Dad]

LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE GOT THE MESSAGE

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/7028525.stm
More funds for Iraq war inquests

Inquests were held in Oxford until April
Extra funding has been agreed for one of 32 coroners holding inquests into the deaths of military personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Ministry of Defence said it did not want a backlog of inquests to build up for Wiltshire coroner David Masters, although there was no current backlog.
An extra deputy coroner and coroner's officer will now be taken on.
A row had broken out after the Oxfordshire coroner was given extra funds to deal with his backlog.
Mr Masters told the BBC in September that he was confident that extra government money would mean no delays for military inquests in Wiltshire.
'Urgent need'
"With that funding, I don't intend to allow any backlog to build up," he said.
Until April, the Oxfordshire coroner handled deaths from Iraq and Afghanistan because the bodies were flown back to RAF Brize Norton in the county.
At the end of last year, Oxford had a backlog of more than 100 cases - to the distress of many relatives.
But from April, repatriation flights were switched to RAF Lyneham because of a two-year upgrade of facilities at Brize Norton, meaning that the inquests became the responsibility of the Wiltshire coroner.
A Royal British Legion spokesman said: "Last month, we identified the urgent need to address the distressing backlog of coroners' inquests, and this is a step in the right direction.
"Both the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Defence should be congratulated on making additional resources available, but this is not before time."

[pr00ne]

Before we all get carried away with congragulating the MoD for making additional resources available it is worth pointing out that it is the MoD itself which is responsible for the vast majority of these delays as it takes so long to sanitise and authorise the cases before they are released to the Coroner.

[TheStrawMan]

Families let down by lack of coroners reform

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article2823932.ece

The Government has been accused of neglecting the families of fallen British troops by scrapping reform of the coroners system from its legislative programme.
The Queen’s Speech yesterday had been widely expected to include a Coroners Bill that would have strengthened the investigative powers of inquests and reduced delays for the bereaved.
But the legislation was left in limbo after ministers decided other measures were more deserving of Parliamentary time.
A spokesman for the Royal British Legion condemned the move, insisting that families had now been waiting years for crucial changes.
“The draft Bill was originally published in June 2006. It is extremely disappointing that the Government has not put this forward,” he said.
“It is particularly disappointing that during this national week of remembrance it comes as a greater blow to bereaved families.”
The Legion has made the Bill a key part of its "Broken Covenant" campaign, calling on the Government to honour obligations to troops in return for their sacrifice.

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/images/bc_header.jpg

[Tappers Dad]

I would just like to thank all those who signed this petition, I am sure it has had an effect and as you know the Full Inquest will now be on 6th May 2008 for approx 3 weeks.

Thank you all.:ok: