Mustering in a fix wing

[Red777]

Hi guys just wondering if anyone has done some fixed wing cattle mustering and can give me an insight into it as im heading to a station next week to start work flying a 2000 C172 doing mustering.

Would mostly appreciate it...
cheers

[Arm out the window]

Have you got the training and experience as per CAO 29.10?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I have done a bit of mustering in a former life. Wouldn't do it in anything other than a C185.

In my opinion, and in my hands at least, a C172 just does not have enough margin for error.

Dr:cool:

[poteroo]

DYO low level training is really great for insurance premiums !!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'day "Red',
Please check your pm's...........

[ScottyDoo]

give me an insight into it as im heading to a station next week to start work flying a 2000 C172 doing mustering.

My insight would be to go get yourself an ag endorsement for mustering, or whatever they call it these days. As well as trading a couple of grand of your cash for a stamp in your logbook, they will even train you to muster!

Free advice on mustering, right here on pprune and I've never even done any mustering myself..... how about that.

[Flintstone]

Wasn't 'Dead Man's Curve' the original free mustering training?:\

[Desert Duck]

Red777

Best advice that I could offer you is to contact someone like Sandy Kidd at Windorah, spend a few dollars and get an endorsment.

Over the years I have helped to collect what has been left of several pilots who were unsuccessful in just 'rounding up a few cattle'.

[bushy]

And 172's WILL spin. you need to know about it, specially for low level flying.

[Red777]

thanks for the comments, more is welcomed...i am being trained with the CP on the station who has a training approval from CASA.

cheers again

[youngmic]

G'day Red,

No stock mustering experience, but 8 years bird mustering and 7 years Ag.

John Freemans book Flight at the lower levels is a good read.

Forget the Ag rating unless you intend to use it, it's 10k+

Understanding how to move stock in a stressless manner is quite important I believe, and the right direction is handy to.

As for the flying component, know your limits and ALWAYS (That is the single most important bit) stay well within them. The temptation to do impromptue beat ups and low flying will pop up, probably resign to the fact you are going to do it from time to time. When you do stop, plan and think through carefully how your going to do it, you may well talk yourself out of it through this forthought, if not at least you've got a plan, and stick to it.

Look where your going, look out for birds, willy willies, towers, wires, dead limbs in the tops of trees. Avoid flying into the sun, keep your windscreen cleaner than your willy, always know where the wind is blowing from, and force land into it, aviod looking over your shoulder in tight turns till you've got a bit of experience. Left turns are better than right turns as you can see a bit more from the L/H seat on cessna. Use flaps and don't forget where they're set to. Take a enough gear (water, food and jumper) for an overnight camp out. Know exactly how much fuels on board and when you need to head back for more, carry a pocket GPS and sat phone if you can afford it.

Be gentle with your aeroplane and keep it clean and tidy at all times, be careful where you land if you land off runway ie. tracks and supposedly clear paddocks.

Discount any comment that one type over another is more or less dangerous as basically crap. Each type has it's abilities and short comings your job is to understand that intrinscally so you won't ever get caught. Work up your skill base gently there is no rush unless your planning on dying early.

Eat plenty of vegies take some books on engines and use what spare time you have to learn stuff.

And best of all you can now forget all those CASA rules and regs, cause there are now just two.

Don't hit nuthin and don't do nuthin dumb!

Have a ball and best of luck.

M

[sir.pratt]

would have thought a storch would be the perfect mustering aircraft..
http://www.warbirdalley.com/storch.htm

or its modern derivative: http://www.pazmany.com/stork/stork.html

[Red777]

thanks for the info again mostly appreciated

[bushy]

Good advice from Youngmjc. You have to be a bushman, and as well as flying within limits, you have to be able to "think like a cow"

[takeonme]

One thing I learnt doing my training.

Never use full power at low levels.

That way you always got something to get you out of the sh!t

T.O.M

[the wizard of auz]

After 8500Hrs chasing stock about the place I can assure you the 172 is the most appropriate fixed wing for chasing stock. a few basics to remember and there are a couple of "gotcha's' to watch out for, but you really have to try to kill your self in a 172.
Mustering in a 185????? your kidding right??........ how much money does your boss have?. you wanna get splattered quick, use a 185 low and slow...... you'll end up rolled up in no time if your not on the ball 100% of the time. 180Hp 172 with a STOL kit is waaaay more forgiving.
If you need any advice on the subject, I think I may be qualified to help. if your in the west and need the low flying training or mustering approval, PM me. If your in the west and the CP is the station owner and has the correct approvals......... I know him, and you should be right.
Cheers, Wiz.

[Red777]

thanks guys, now with regard to the operations side of it, can you give me an insight into how low i will be flying at and what the basics behind fixed wing mustering...is it just spotting the strays and guiding them back in etc:.???


cheers red

[Andy_RR]

I'm with Mucking on this. I've mustered in 172, 182, 180, 185, 206 and 210, yes I kid you not - C210!!!

and I've mustered brumbies in a Supercub.


Surely a Supercub would be the pick aircraft, in terms of handling and vis?

It sounds like fun flying, albeit on the risky side.

A

[the wizard of auz]

Super cub is a great mustering bus.
I have flown the 185........ mate, if you think they are the best mustering bus about, you just go ahead and use it...... but I do have a clue about what I'm talking about.......whether you like it or not. obviously you have worked for someone with more money than the average station people. 60ltrs an hour to start with..... hardly effeciant. weight differance is quite sustantial as well..... but hey, your the expert.
the reason more people are killed in 172's while mustering would be similar to the reason more people get killed training in robbo's. because they are used more than any other type for that job. I gues the reason for the lack of fatalities in 185's mustering would be in the same vein...... not many people use em for that purpose. great aeroplane, no argument..... but not for mustering.
good for you that you know me. :) you lucky lucky chap. :D
mustering in a 210 huh???........ gamer than me.
I know a bloke that had a great mustering bus....... Was a really old 150.... with a tailwheel conversion, and a 180hp engine in it. he managed some unbelievable number of hours in it....... something like 25000 odd, nearly all mustering. was a little disconcerting seeing the tops of the doors being sucked outwards as it cruised at 140 odd knts or so. was a great little bus to fly though.

[185skywagon]

C172-BEW-690-740kg??145-180hp.

C185-BEW-860kg -300hp.
Academic anyway, as you wouldn't find a 185 to go mustering in these days.

:ok:

[pakeha-boy]

185skywagon.....in two words........not true!!!(to finding one)

depends what your trying to muster:E

[beaver_rotate]

I have only mustered in a 206 and don't have too much experience with it. As in how 'low' is low? Well when you bomb some cattle, you might be at 30 feet or something, uncomfortable at first but you soon get used to it. One great tip I learnt was when flying low, always trim back more than required so your having to apply fwd pressure on yoke to stop it climbing. Then if the **** hits the fan, let go and it flies away out of strife. As with the 172 argument, never mustered in one, but the few times I've booted it in the 206 to bail out of a dangerous situation, being 'mildly' thrown back in the seat sure does remind you that its good to have that extra grunt. And the one I flew was dosile as in a stall = no wing drop which is always nice! :ok:
BR

[the wizard of auz]

if your "bombing" cattle, your working them to close and you'll find they will go "fizzy" on ya and become practically unworkable in no time.
A little inertial managment will avoid the need for handfuls of power. a gentle climbout after getting lower than normal is a far better way of returning to height than a large steep climb. trimming to nutral is also a far better method. no uncommanded climbs or anything unexpected when your not expecting it. Just my own personal preferances, and it what I teach also.
Not to many 185's around these parts, and certainly none available for mustering.

[thekite]

Mustered in 3 types, the 185, Hughes 300 helicopter and Drifter ultralight.

The 185 was a porky blind monster hard to see out of in turns, chews gas, needed to be retrimmed every time you change power.

Hughes was agile and had the best visibilty, but had poor reliablity.

Best of the lot? Yes the evil ultralight!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

C172: 3.83 kg/hp (tops) vs C185: 2.86 kg/hp

C172 mushes into the dirt vs C185 leaps back into the air

Give me a C185 any day!

Dr:cool:

[the wizard of auz]

Hey Doc, I'm happy enough flying what I fly....... and it aint only the 172........ but I have enough time in one to know its hard to beat as a mustering bus. Dunno where you get the full throttle in the 172 idea from?....the figure is closer to 22LPH.......Of course after throwing engine TBO and replacment costs, insurance and all the other guff, the price differance is a bunch more than fuel cost........ perhaps your just indicating how many hours you have mustering. :)
get your 185 on the back of the drag curve on a hot day when the thermals are bashing you about low and slow.......... I doubt it would jump into the air as predicted........ but your the expert, so you just wiz out and do as you please. :)
I would love to watch the transition from 60Knts, 1800/21' and 50ft to flying away happy and safe...... couple of frantic seconds I reckon. :)

[Jamair]

:rolleyes: I personally prefer the B200 for close-in work, but a a general runabout and for occasion mustering I find the Aerostar a useful all-rounder - but only the full Machen 700 version with the automatic double x-feeds. For really tight stuff the B204 is hard to beat (the upgraded Bushranger version with the double-6K minis though) although it does tend to leave the cattle (and everything else) a little fizzy and hard to move.....:hmm:

[the wizard of auz]

:) the B200 certainly would send the whole station a little fizzy. be fun though.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"get your 185 on the back of the drag curve on a hot day when the thermals are bashing you about low and slow.......... I doubt it would jump into the air as predicted"

Ah yes, the dreaded "back of the drag curve!"

You are just jerk'n my chain, aren't you?

Dr:cool:

[the wizard of auz]

I sure have flown them thingy's. :)
(you should change your posting style old son....... some of us know who you are and your "other names you use..... no sense in giving the game away all by yaself :) )

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"ForkTailedDrKiller (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=164064), BrokenConrod (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=149082), djpil (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=51017), yigy2 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=115042), OpsNormal (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=26998), Aardvaark (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=19087), The Cassidy Kid (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=113971), XRNZAF (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=138089), Kaptain_Kaos (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=85883), Keg (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=6503), TheMuckingFonster (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=170831), jimbo787 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=170814), Sector3 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=19214), graham lea (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=54986), Crosshair (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=155925), heywatchthis (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=145781), RaRadar (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=50871)"

Interesting line up here!

Dr:cool:

[OpsNormal]

It's amazing. Give a person a pilot licence and all of a sudden they become Physics Professors....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

FTDK, if I might be so bold: How many hours do you have in C180/5? Me personally, only a couple of hundred, both on wheels and floats. :hmm: :hmm:

They don't just get skull-dragged into the air with horsepower I can assure you, and the drag curve is as equally applicable to a C185 as it is to....

...my other favourite mustering machine, the P51D.... now that machine can get skull-dragged into the air. Good vis (bubble canopy), good HP/Wt ratio, good roll rate (OK - she might be a little slushy down low on the ASI), all metal construction, a tailwheel and a decent array of weaponry for errant steers and mickies... :E :E :E

Fizzy cattle? You blokes should know it aint work 'till they're in a lather and bolting in all directions ya big pussies.... := := := :} :} :}

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Ops

I have enough time in the C180/185 to know that in the sort of configuration used when mustering - ie no more than half tanks and one POB - the arse end of the drag curve is NOT a significant consideration.

We are not talking a 185 at gross wt here!

But while we are on the subject, I am not a disciple of the "back of the drag curve" dogma.

Having recently (mid-morning in November - west of YBMA) had cause to "go round" from the flare in a heavily (near gross) loaded C210 (with full flap down) curtesy of skippy's big brother who decided to inspect the airstrip, I am even less convinced that the "back of the drag curve" is a significant phenomenon in an aeroplane with a reasonable power:weight.

I was very pleasently surprised at how the 210 got itself back into the air - and still don't know how I missed the skippy!

I think the issue is more that pilot's fail to take sufficient action (ie "fire wall the bastard") in a timely enough manner!

Cheers

Dr:cool:

[OpsNormal]

Forky I hear ya, but I theeenks you may have missed the hint of something sly in my last post!!!!:} :} :E :E

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Ops

Nah, you are clearly way too subtle for me - missed it completely (and just between you and me, still don't get it)!

Cheers

Dr:cool:

[Just Looking Really]

Hey guys
Um I am wanting to start mustering/ fixed wing in Oz as a step into Ag flying and was wondering what companies are the best to work for.....and most important are any actually hiring?

Cheers

[185skywagon]

Kidman, Jumbuck pastoral and various Mid WA pastoral companies.

That's about it for the big ones.

There is the occasional ad in the Land and the Qld Country Life newspapers.

[Trent 972]

Red,
1. Maintaining a little bit of 'Nose-Up' elevator trim, helps when your attention is diverted away from flight control manipulation (eg. watching the cattle or spotting obstacles), at very low altitudes.
2. Don't try to over tighten turns at low level if it looks like you are skidding out, it's the tailwind/xwind component making it look that way. Check angle of bank and accept the turn radius.

[Capt Fathom]

Trent,

The original post was from 2007! I would suggest that young Red is probably a Jetstar Captain by now!:E

[Trent 972]

Woops... In that case
1. No need to hand fly it. The FMGC and Prims know what is happening and what they are going to do about it.
2. Allow it to do its own turns, no matter how good you are, it is better. :O

[heated ice detector]

If you are the type that turns off your mags in flight i.a.w mustering big bang theory make sure the switch nut is tight, I know of one operator who switched his mags off only to see the switch disappear behind the instrument panel.
Lucky those trees were there with just the right spacing to remove wings and arrest forward motion

[4by2withears]

JLR
Why do you see mustering as a step into ag. Why not just go and do your ag rating. The 5 hours dual for a mustering endorsement is only going to give you limited training for low level ops. If you want to get into ag then I would suggest you find a job mixing or loading for an ag operator. That way you are learning about the ag industry and at the same time you can be networking. That is not going to happen if you are on an isolated pastoral property.
Go for it.

[Super Cecil]

I agree with you Mr Ears or can I call you Four by Two?

[4by2withears]

Ears will do. Mr Ears was me dad.

[Super Cecil]

ears will do. Mr ears was me dad ....................................................
:8

[oex]

New to this site how do i contact you Cheers

[osmosis]

I once spent an afternoon with the principal/owner/CP of a very well known helicopter school with a view to transitioning to CPL(H). I got to see day to day operations, hangars, current students, the various endorsements they offered, how they generally operated and him displaying some very fine a/c handling. I was impressed... until I heard him take a phone call. He was speaking with someone about cattle mustering training and he admitted he did not have any endorsements or experience to do so but was keen to do business. All the good impressions I had gleaned to this moment dissipated in an instant when he replied down the phone "I don't have a mustering endorsement. It can't be too hard to get, all you gotta do is chase a few cows around." This stupid statement undid all the positive points I had earlier seen.

Not anywhere on this thread have I seen anyone mention the prime reason for a mustering endorsement: the cattle. No-one on here has mentioned one needs to have cattle sense.

[oex]

I have done a bit of mustering in a 172. I am keen to learn more from some one that has experience in the industry am also keet to get in touch with a pilot that is intrested in teaching me the finer points.

[Shrike135]

Right on Osmosis

[tinpis]

Bert Tinkler up Brocken Hill way did good work with his war surplus Stuka.:hmm:

[Ejector]

Turbine Beaver - The only way to go. :D

[poteroo]

Oex,

If you have already done some mustering in a C172, then you shouldn't need any tuition in 'fine points'. Assume you have done a CAO 29.10 low level course, you did do a full 'mustering endorsement', and you did undergo 'on-the-job' training?

On the other hand............... like many others we hear of, if your current employer has discovered that their aircraft insurance will be voided unless you do get the appropriate training...... then, you need more than a chat about the 'fine points'.

happy days,

[Shrike135]

I bet the last cow oex saw was in a pack at Woolworths.

[Chimbu chuckles]

No-one on here has mentioned one needs to have cattle sense.

Oh come on oex - I used to do a little 'native' mustering in C185s in my yoof - I didn't have an 'native sense':E

[poteroo]

Yes Chuck,

if you kept in close to the shoreline coconut palms, you could keep them running out to sea.

I reckon the Papuan coastline has seen more than it's fair share of 'native mustering'............. forgive the PC incorrectness!

happy days,