Air India and Indian Merger.Seniority issues.

[boeingdream787]

Hi all.Just heard a birdie tell me yesterday that the two Indian national carriers ie Air India and Indian were gonna be finally merged so as to have a single balance sheet on the 1st of April.What i really would want to know is what would happen to the seniorities of the pilots working in both airlines?Would it be date of joining or....???Cause maybe not Indian but Air India surely has recruited some DEC's for its subsidiary AI express.Where would they figure in seniority.
More importantly,what would happen to their two low cost subsidiary arms.Would they merge too.Sure can see a WHOLE lotta disgruntled pilots floating around with a WHOLE lotta court visits for both companies' legal departments..:{
Would love some input.Cheers now.
BD.

[divinesoul]

More importantly,what would happen to their two low cost subsidiary arms.
Well IX will remain as the INT'l LCC and CD will be the domestic LCC.Also heard that CD is looking for new a/c.
regarding seniority and other issues God knows what Mr Praful Patel and MCA
have in mind.

Hope AI/IA pilots on the forum can put in their inputs.By the way i think there are only a handful of Indian pilots on this forum.
cheers.

[boeingdream787]

Thanks Divine.However i do know that CD is looking for some NG's to supplement its aging 732 fleet.I do believe that the merged entity will prolly have a full service intl arm ie 744's and 777's and later the 787's.Then the full service domestis arm ie the complete Indian fleet....319's and 320's.Next would be the LCC intl ie the AIE fleet and then the LCC dom ie the CD fleet.Lastly would be the frieghter arm consisting of the 310's and the 732's from CD...obiously after a suitable replacement has been aquired.Again......this is what i hear.Would love some input.
Also heard some old boys from the Indian A300 B4'sare trying very hard to get their paws on to the brand new 777's cummin for AI.Wonder how THAT would work,with the B4 boys having zero hours glass time!! Wonder how AI would take it.Guess time will tell...:hmm:
Input welcome!

[divinesoul]

I wonder how many Indian pilots browse pprune.

[4engines]

All sections of employees have been kept in the dark regarding the specifics of the merger. The Civil Aviation Minister has called on the various unions for 'Talks'. In all the meetings held so far he is the only one who has done all the talking. :D
Inspite of that, he has not laid out any clear plan with respect to the integration of employees.
There have been rumours about pilots from B4s wanting to get on the 777s, nothing confirmed so far. If that happens, expect lengthy court battles.
However, the merger, seniority issues will no impact the expat pilots because they are not part of the seniority lists and their contracts do not entitle them for career progression.
Things should get very interesting soon.
Fly High!!

[lowprofilepilot]

The problem in India is arrogance! Basically the average Indian pilot thinks of themselves as God's gift to aviation. Being an expat working in India and having seen much of the aviation world they are generally well below standard.
What they need to do is work together rather on their own. They also need to seriously look at their attitude towards their job's.
Their still the only airline I have seen that has a little black guy following them around carrying their nav/overnight bags.
Basically India is an accident awaiting to happen!
I personally have no pity if they get shafted by the merger.

[leftseatview]

Indian's 319/320(And maybe330) fleet is going to remain in service for a very long time(unlike Air India's current fleet)
So as long as the Pilots with Indian stay in their airbus fleet(and most are quite happy there),seniority is not really a big issue for them.

[boeingdream787]

Ok.The merger has FINALLY taken place.And the new airline is to be called NATIONAL AVIATION..................jeeeese.Sounds like a flying school.......( of sorts....!!!). Oh,by the way (earlier)Air India has a brand new fleet of B-737-800Wesfp-1's(whatever that means).They are basically the newest boys on the block.Quite literally.....!! Each airplane has commonality with the 777's and future 787's of AIE.Complete with EFB's and all.So the B4 boyz getting into the 777 cockpits (or toilets for that matter)really doesnt hold much water.Except that me finks that some of those B4 fellas are quite an influential lot.And prolly can manage quite a few ministers in one night.......lol.Especially considering that one of those very B4 TRE is THE ONLY FOI (F.I.D) in the Indian aviation circuit today.More importantly the fact that there is absolutely no dearth of either talent or experience in India to make an FOI.
Considering all of the above i can quite see where the seniority list would be going from here....!!!
Towards the B4 boyz headed for their "fantasy" glass 777 cockpits that is..........or worse still......the 787 cockpits......!!!!!! HOLY COW....!!!!!...:ugh: := :=

[boeingdream787]

Ok.Just heard that the merged entity's going to be called Air Indian.With the AI mascot,ie the Maharaja as the official mascot.They'll need more than just a lucky mascot to get them thru their current spate of baaaaaad luck.What with two close calls yesterday.BOTH of them associated with nose wheels!! Smells like fish to me........
BD

[Flying_Distrails]

Hi Fellas

I Fully Agree with the fact that Air Indians seem to be more interested in filing their coffers than putting their clothes on and even Buying a thinking cap.
With the state of affairs I think This country will be the first in the world to have a B787 with 15 years worth weathering in the first few months of operations. This isnt the first time they have tried to use paint to cover up their bad decisions.
Its all fun for you guys on here to say 250 hour pilots in India do better than most pilots in the world . That is because they have their Expat Capts Flying the aircraft and are very good at flying a Two man crew Single handedly. So they are carried on their backs for 5 years then they get command and then its the Good first Officers who carry them along again and then they get so far that they have lived all their life with just Working with influence that they decide to join things like DGCA and then Whoow they get Egos and Get to go Places that no man has gone beforelike below Glideslopes between Mountains and around taxiways.

Boy I sure did make an entry :)
Feels a lot lighter on my head :ugh:

Mercenaries of 2007

[leftseatview]

Flying_Distrails,
i think you are trying too hard to make someone take the bait!
Its true aviation management in India(especially in Air India and Indian) leaves a lot to be desired.
For instance the lack of planning/forsight(or was it deliberate!) which required expats to be hired in the first place
Indian is in fact doing just fine without any,and it has one of the highest despatch reliability rates on the 320 fleet in the world.
Also the fact that the pilots are dealing quitely and without any fuss with incidents of hydraulic failures or inflight engine shutdowns(a spate of them last year due design deficiencies in the old version of V2500 in the fleet) shows the level of professional competence
That despite these shortfalls Indian has maintained a high on time performance throughout its very large route network,reflects well on the professionalism of its engg. and commercial people.
A lot of the old trash in senior mangement has/is retiring.
Many of the new senior mangement(in Indian at least) are actually from the first lot of IIM graduates who joined as management trainees,and have only now got to GM level and above.
At the end of the day its these folks that will provide the backbone/leadership for the new merged Air India.
They are very experienced and also very aware of the failings of some of their predecessors.
Indian has already undergone quite a major work culture change in the last few years.
There is no reason why the new Air India should not be able meet new challenges with an optimally operated new fleet.

[beykoz]

having seen much of the aviation world they are generally well below standard.


Which part of the aviation world you've seen/come from boy, where the standards are those that you dont see here. Look around you, There are Indians in the best airlines in the world very well respected for their professionalism. There are no accidents waiting to happen here boy.
You need to back to your country wherever it may be. If you get a job there, i will be worried. Meanwhile shut up and keep counting the bucks.

[4engines]

Flying Distrails,
I suppose the 'Good First Officers' that you are refering to are expats too, like yourself.
I would like to take this oppurtunity to thank all you Expat pilots ( esp the ones from Bush Country:} ) for rescuing the Aviation industry in India.
I am surprised, how we brownies managed for 75 years without the 'skilled'/ furloughed man power from the USA.
Thank you.

PS: Just out of curiosity, why did you decide to come to India??
May be if you just quit the 'Indian' job that you hold, and went back to being unemployed, you would feel a whole lot more lighter!!

[HAWK21M]

The Name will be Air-India & Not Air-Indian.
For many decades now the Skill & efficiency of Indians in the Flight deck has been proven to be as good as the rest.
One cannot judge an individuals skill by his nationality.Don't Generalise.

The problem is in the Mgmt setup with political Interference.Which most merger & phased privatisation should be eliminated.

I'm in Mx though not AI/IC & have interacted with Mx persons from other countries.I can tell many tales on how similiar in skills people from various countries are.

regds
MEL

[haree]

Totally agree with beykoz and MEL
having seen much of the aviation world they are generally well below standard.
I guess you havent seen the politics and miles of red tape that is involved before even a toilet seat can be replaced.

We can draw out quite a lot of stories involving Expat pilots worldwide (including indians of course) doing silly things on the left and right seats too so instead of generalising based on nationality , sex , race , chromosomes we can talk about "Pilots" :)
Peace!:O

[Flying_Distrails]

Left SeatView,

A very nicely put view. although i sincerely doubt that the airline can recover from the mistakes they have made and are continueing to. Hopefully Indian's management will be better and might cure the Problems air India is having of just not caring about a thing, as one of them so eloquently put it to me once " Why should I bother the Govt will pay me no matter what " I just hope the viruses of Air India dont poison a good Professional Airline like Indian. I agree you have problems but youre still the last bastion of the old world of aviation.

untill the next one:ok:

[Flying_Distrails]

4-Engines

The way I see it we arent expats or indians or anything else we are just pilots. The cockpit talk is the same as hereexcept when you hear an expat say these things ( Or someone you Brand an expat ) then its Blasphemy. Why detract from the realities just to defend the honour of your airline. If its honour in flight you want then India has a Glorious Air Force with State of the art Aircraft and exceptional pilots. Join Them. Wheres the honour to the country when you ridicule our Air force veterans when they join the Airline world after 30 years given to the country and take time to adapt gear up and down you have done for 8 years.
Face up to it Its all about the Money the New Age pilots dont care about the thrill of flying the brotherhood of the eagles the joy of flight, something that has intrigued mankind for eons. to soar with the birds. No its all about Who got what rolex and what girl is doing what and how much the other airlines get and what allowance should be increased........

The airline fought to get extra allowance on the 747 a/c stating extra work due to trans atlantic And asked for the Navigators share Sounded right. But when the Transport drivers asked for extra 100 Rupees giving the reason of extra work with Radios installed in the Transports the same pilots created a furor about it as to how dare they ask. all they wanted was a pay raise by an amount that pilots spend on a beer. ( Or a Coke in your case ;) )
I will see this airline asprospering when I see DUE Respect given to the lower ranking employees like loaders and traffic and tug drivers etc, and the arrogance of the cockpit crew that exists today is turned to a smile and a job well done

Mesquite

[4engines]

Flying Distrails,
I love it how you have changed tunes and become all conciliatory.
After unabashedly running down Indian pilots( please refer to your First Post ) you now want to remind us about how we are one brotherhood and the joy of flying etc!!
You did not seem to care too much for these niceties when you were spewing venom earlier on this forum. Maybe because i reminded you of your status in your home country (furloughed/ fired), you have decided to reluctantly glorify flyers in India, albeit only those from the Indian Air Force.
May i ask you, on what do you base your glorification of the Indian Air Force. We donot need to be reminded by some Charlie who has just inked a contract for a temporary job in India, about the glories of the Indian Air Force.
Rather than pass judgements on issues you have very little knowldge or no knowldge, you should maybe just focus on the one thing you werent able to do in your country, ie fly airplanes for a living.
Enjoy!