Robinson Log Times Factor by 1.12?

[rjtjrt]

I have been told robby air times (if not using a collective switch) can be reduced by factor of 1.12 to take into account time on ground with collective down.
Now I understand this is incorrect.
Can anyone enlighten me?
John

[B Sousa]

Fly what you have too.......
Log what you need......

[Arm out the window]

I'm pretty sure the CAOs say log collective up time for the maintenance release except for Robbies, where it's rotors turning time.

Edit - may not be in the CAOs, I know I've read it somewhere but could have been our ops manual maybe - will investigate.

[MightyGem]

Fly what you have too.......
Log what you need......


Now, now, stop trying to teach these new guys bad habits. := :=

[thecontroller]

well, here in the UK the Air Navigation Order states that "flight time" is when 'the aircraft moves under its own power to when the rotors stop'. (ie dont use the rotor brake and you could log more!)

most FTOs log the datcon/hobbs time for their logbook, and knock 0.1 off for for the tech-log maintenance. but this seems to vary from aircraft to aircraft.

just to complicate the matter, later R44's datcon is collective activated. so depending on what the schools policy is..... it gets complicated for instructor invoicing, student invoicing and logbook purposes!

[kissmysquirrel]

So a gearbox/drive system, blades and engines aren't considered in use unless in the air? All time should really be logged. This practice of not logging time on the ground is just a way of saving a bit of money. If you can't afford to pay the full costs, maybe you shouldn't be operating a helicopter.


Unfortunately B Sousa has it about right.

[paco]

"All time should really be logged."

I agree - and if you do it that way, you'll find you get a lot fewer components breaking down!

However, when I were a lad and did a lot of pleasure flying, the accepted practice (from the CAA) was to put down two thirds of the start-to-stop time as the flight time in the tech log. Of course, I used a stopwatch, but I found it wasn't that far out.

Phil

[Raymond Kertezc]

from http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2003/AAIR/pdf/aair200302820_001.pdf
The Robinson Helicopter Company - Model R22 Maintenance Manual contained a
section on life-limited components. The section contained a list of ‘fatigue life-limited’
parts that included the main rotor blades, part number A016-2. The table of parts and
their maximum service life was required to be approved by the US Federal Aviation
Authority as part of the continuing airworthiness requirements for the R22 helicopter.
The maximum service life listed for the A016-2 main rotor blade was 2,200 hours.
The same section also contained information on the time-in-service recording for the
helicopter. The section stated that:
It is the operator’s responsibility to maintain accurate time-in-service records of the
airframe and life-limited components. An hourmeter activated by engine oil
pressure is standard equipment in the R22 helicopter and is an acceptable means of
recording time-in-service.
The section also contained the following information on the use of a collective hour
meter when recording time in service:
The approved overhaul intervals and the fatigue service lives listed in the
Airworthiness Limitations Section are based on FAA Advisory Circular 20-95
which assume that 10.5% of the operating time will be in autorotation, runup, or
shutdown. Therefore, if an hourmeter activated by the collective control is used to
record the time-in-service, the values recorded must be multiplied by 1.12 when
determining replacement times for the life-limited components, engine and
airframe overhaul periods and other periodic inspection requirements.

this seems to be saying that maintenance should be 1.12 x collective time (or presumably engine time), is this still what it says?

[Out of Date]

In the UK the CAA are mainly interested in Flight Time hence for an R22 a 2200hr Datcon reading equates to 1964 flight hours (in other words for maintenance purposes which ever is reached first).


How can they differ.


For each & every flight, as warm up & cool down times added together average 0.1 (6mins) summer or winter a commercial ship generally does a lot more short flights i.e. lessons, trial flights, sight seeing etc therefore because of the above it reaches its 2200hr Datcon time first.


Whereas a privateer's ship normally is not up/down up/down as frequently & generally does longer sessions, therefore it follows it will reach its 1964 flight hours of first.


Since March 2006 JAR-FCL 1.001 Definitions, paragraph 2) Flight Time. Clearly States that


The total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.


In other words Flight Time in any fixed gear chopper is logged as the first time after start up the skids leave the deck to the last time they touch down again before shutdown.


That’s just how it should be (after all, what is flight).


In an R44, as the Datcon also requires the collective to be raised to function, Flight Time & Datcon time as a rule generally coincide (unless you spend a lot of time doing autos).


It is also interesting to note that the R22 maintenance manual does indeed state that if an hour meter activated by the collective is used, one must multiply that figure by 1.12 for correct time in service. However in the R44 maintenance manual no reference to that figure is given other than it is the operator's responsibility to maintain accurate time in service.


Although 236hrs could be at stake here to keep inside the law I guess all owners with (hour meters activated by the collective) should consult their respective authorities for the definitive answer as not only fatigue life's could be effected but your insurance or your life may depend on it.:bored:

[FredFri]

JAR-FCL 1.001 Definitions, paragraph 2) Flight Time. Clearly States that
The total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.

FCL 1 is for planes, you should look at JAR-FCL 2.001 :

Flight Time
The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.

[Camp Freddie]

FredFri,

in the UK, the situation is complicated regarding Flight Time, my understanding is

as far as licensing is concerned, you can log Rotor Start - Stop in accordance with JAR-FCL 2.001

as far as the ANO is concerned, CAP 393, Section 1, Part 4, Page 12, Para 35(3), "a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped"

ICAO is per JAR-FCL, the ANO is out of line, my company insist we record flight time in accordance with ANO, as it allows them to utilise each pilot a little more before hitting FTL limits.

Regards

CF

[BillieBob]

....my company insist we record flight time in accordance with ANO, as it allows them to utilise each pilot a little more before hitting FTL limits.....and the fact that it also complies with UK law and prevents them being prosecuted does not feature in the equation, I suppose. In the UK, at least, JARs are only Requirements, the ANO is the law - until EASA takes over.

[Scissorlink]

The way Robinsons are falling apart I would be logging .1 every time I even THOUGHT about flying it


SL

[paco]

Billiebob - so why are we all b*ggering about with JAR OPS paperwork and JAR-FCL? :)

The CAA has not asked for any specific exemptions to JAR OPS requirements as far as I know, so it would be an interesting argument as to which took precedence in court! I suppose technically the ANO would win, but would it really?

And engineering wise at least, EASA has taken over.

Phil

[AB139engineer]

Disabling the hobbs meter is illeagally modifying the aircraft in the case of Robinson helicopters, If I was purchasing Robinson helicopter and there was evidence of tampering with the hobbs meter, even a wire splice, I would walk away from it. :suspect:

[helimutt]

Hang on, if the engine(s) are running and the blades are turning, isn't that movement for the purposes of taking off, without this movement it would go nowhere.
If an R22 is lifed at 2200hrs, then my advice to anyone is only fly one up to a maximum of that time (total) and not this extra 0.1 each flightetc. The R22 is not designed to run to 1964 hours. I'm fairly sure Mr R would hate to hear this is happening. I used to work for a company which only paid the pilots flight time, ie 0.1 off each datcon hour! Theft?
Fly safe.


Camp Freddie, do you log flight time as chocks out to shut down? If so, doesn't this leave periods where the a/c is turning and burning on the ground waiting, FTL being used up?

[Camp Freddie]

Helimutt

Hang on, if the engine(s) are running and the blades are turning, isn't that movement for the purposes of taking off, without this movement it would go nowhere.

as far as the ANO is concerned and probably your FTL scheme, er NO

as far as JAR-FCL 2 and ICAO are concerned, er YES

Camp Freddie, do you log flight time as chocks out to shut down? If so, doesn't this leave periods where the a/c is turning and burning on the ground waiting, FTL being used up?

for your logbook, count Rotor Start to Stop, if you want (ICAO/JAR)
for FTL, we count from first movement to rotor stop (ANO/FTL)
for the tech log, airborne time only.

periods on the ground rotors running after first movement count for the FTL, but not the aircraft.

the trick is to start up then taxi ASAP to pick up passengers, then the FTL clock is running !

a large helicopter company I know at one time banned taxiing to pick up passengers, they always took the passengers to the stationary rotors running aircraft before it moved, also they banned rotors running between flights by making you shut down each time, all to save that bit of FTL at the start of each flight. in this way they calculated they could employ 3 pilots less as they were trying to utilise the 800 hours max a year.

isnt aviation just grrreat :)

regards
CF

[paco]

Camp Freddie - just curious - does all that palaver really make a difference with an FTL scheme?

Phil

[Camp Freddie]

hey paco,

well they were doing in excess of 500 commercial flights a month, so if it saves just 5 minutes per flight, that is 500 x 5mins x 2 pilots x 12 months = 60000 minutes = 1000 hours, allow another 1000 for rotors running between flights where it is much more than 5 mins per flight, and the flights were starting in the morning and often running back to back, thats 2000 hours = 3 pilots.

if everyones hours are nowhere near FTL max why bother, but when your pilots are bumping limits it really makes a difference !

regards

CF

[JimL]

The issues are complex as the definition of 'flight time' relates to a number important issues - which are not necessarily aligned. The recent proposal for amendment of ICAO Annex 6 Part III (which has now been accepted and will be applicable from later in the year) contains this amendment to the definition of flight time.
Flight time helicopters. The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.

Note 1. The State should provide guidance in those cases where the definition of flight time does not describe or permit normal practices. Examples are: crew change without stopping the rotors and rotors running engine wash procedure following a flight. In any case the time when rotors are running between sectors of a flight should be included within the calculation of flight time.

Note 2. This definition is only intended for the purpose of flight and duty time regulations.

Jim

[nigelh]

Hang on i am now confused ! Like most pilots i know i only put in the tech log the time skids off the ground...i can sit on the ground all day with the rorors turning but nothing gets logged in my log book or the a/c tech log.
Also passengers are invoiced from the hrs in the tech log ie only hrs airborne

[Camp Freddie]

hey mr nigel,

i only put in the tech log the time skids off the ground...

that is correct for tech log, but not for your personal log book.

either log ICAO/JAR - Rotor start to rotor stop or
log ANO/FTL - First taxi/lift - rotor stop,

its up to you (or maybe your company)

regards

CF

P.S. how you charge passengers is a red herring, charge them by any method you like !

[nigelh]

Does this mean i can add 10% onto my log book ?!! in the old days crop spraying in 47,s you were hrs on ground , rotors running refuel and loading liquids not to mention 3 min cool down !!!:ok:

[Camp Freddie]

nigel,

log what you what, as long as you think its correct ! by either definition

sometimes I have done 20 sectors without shutting down including 2 refuels and only half of the time I put in the logbook was actually in the air !

CF

[nigelh]

Cool :ok: got 35,000 hrs now :D

[Out of Date]

I am with you on this one NH. Don't see how you can log flight time when your skids are on the deck.:=
The extra 10% of time on the ground won't help your experiance up there.

[topendtorque]

This is an issue that has been discussed before and won’t be going away, neither should it.

What speaks volumes here are the dudes who are saying nothing. There are two varieties of those;

1) Those who operate a-la post two (except that need is interpreted as want) and don’t wish any one to know or think that others don’t know, and

2) Those who know about those who operate a-la post two and don’t wish to name names, rock the boat or are unable to and or are totally frustrated with the system that allows these others to get away with it.

Most OZ mustering drivers used to get paid by the charge hour and only log in their logbook, (supposedly) their total skids off time as per the flight time definitions. They might then log M/R time as per the manufacturer's specs. A useful scene when big hours were around.

Some as mentioned above logged only their charge time in both the personal log book AND the M/R. Those that was more honest than 1 above that is.

The charge hour depended largely on where one was operating, some have been known to regularly do 4 -5 hours each way and charge only for the job while there, maybe only a 3 hour job? Others complained like hell if they had more that one minute dead head ferry, as they should.

Of course company checking (autos etc and induction training) was never charge time, unless it was operational training on the job.

RHC has no interest in pilots personal logs but says that the M/R (tech log) must be from start up to shut down, via the oil pressure hobbs, or as said already 1.12 times the collective hobbs.

“SOME” people have an old dispo – in the form of a letter- from RHC and therefore were able to pursue the same dispo from CASA which did away with the Hobbs and instead use the chronometer. It’s debateable as to whether ‘some’ of those – or ‘some’ others who liberally use side cutters and or screwdrivers can tell the difference between a wrist watch (especially now its digital), sundial, moon cycle or an f’n leap year.

The fact that some operate liberally mean that all mustering machines part life value is zero. I.E. All are punished by the practice of a few.

Some CASA operatives are a might peee’d off about these dispo's, but seem to have their hands tied until such time as companies either change hands and or entities and of course they then lapse.

Of course Frank could and should issue a statement that all old bets are orrfff, circulate such to CASA and that would help.

I am absolutely positive that a man of Frank’s intelligence could and should design a foolproof Hobbs meter to put in his machines and stipulate that it must be used. If one were in the tacho gauge for example and sealed, it would be mighty hard to fly them without a tacho.

Of course the worse thing that has happened to R22’s in recent times is the installation of elastomeric bearings on the T/R. They last too long.

[gwelo shamwari]

Where I work we only log skids up and skids down.

We are limited to a 8hr flight day and a 14hr duty day.

It is not uncommon to spool up at sunrise and spend may be the next 12hrs in the seat with blades spinning and only maybe one or two quick shutdowns to deal with nature. Could really run out of time quick!

How would we log time on those aircraft with flight control locks that allow the pilot to get out of the seat with things moving? Is he still flying? :bored:

[kissmysquirrel]

Dont think its a problem here in UK land. You can't not be at the controls of a helicopter if it's running. Yes seen it done in the states/aus etc but not over here.

For your log book you can quite legally log all time from starting the engine to shutdown, whether airborne or not. This isn't necessarily logged as flight time but in command time.

[flimflam]

When I ground taxi from a gate on north side at Gatwick for departure (noting the time), to hold at a runway hold point whilst waiting for a stream of heavies to come and go, I am Pilot in Command of the Helicopter. The fact that Gatwick can't deal with a helicopter departure going north without the need to get within several hundred metres of the active, (never mind cross the active) does not absolve me from any responsibilities in the course of my duties as aircraft commander. I have sat in this position for as long as 20 minutes.
Following my eventual lift I will note the wheels off time and eventually my landing time. The Tech log will reflect the time I spent in the air, My personal logbook will reflect the time I was in command of the helicopter from the time I started to taxi to the time I switched off the engines. My logbook has a column for P1 - it does not have a column for airborne time.
If ground taxiing at an international airport and waiting my turn for take off in line with the heavies is not worthy of logging P1 time then I think the ramp personnel, or maybe someone from the Ops department should take the helicopter to the point of departure and then call for me, the pilot, at the moment just before take-off. Actually, there's an idea, this would save me a lot of duty hours and stress!!
I once flew as an instructor with a CAA employed examiner who was doing a type rating. He was adamant that he should be charged for an hours tuition, even though the collective actuated datcon only showed 0.8. He was also adamant that we should both log 1.0 hr. The tech log would however reflect the 0.8 airborne time.

[Bladder Tank]

Has there been any changes to the correct way to record R22 hours for maintenance? Engine Hobbs metre or collective multiplied by 1.12 used to be the required method.

[valve guide]

Hi I'm wondering if anyone can help re this question. The HOBS on a R44 is collective activated meaning that the 2200 hours will be actual flown hours, The HOBS on the R22 is engine activated (although I believe you can request a collective activated one if ordering new from the factory). For the R22 this effectively means that when the HOBS shows 2200 hours it will only have flown around 2000 hours, taking into account start up and shut down times. A friend tells me they use the aircraft log at their flight school and record the actual flown hours by taking the HOBS time and multiplying by 0.9 and it is on that basis that they retire the aircraft at 2200 hours flying time which will of course show more on the HOBS meter.
Two questions then, firstly is this practice acceptable as they're basically doing what a collective activated machine would do? Secondly as a private user can I buy an R22 that has say 1800 hours showing on the HOBS multiply it by 0.9 giving effective flying hours of 1620 and fly off the remaining 580 on the same principle?

If this has been asked before I apologise, I did search and couldn't find an answer.

Thanks.

[GoodGrief]

A tech log usually records two time sets, block time and flight time.
Noting the time you hit the starter and again when the rotor has stopped. That's block time.
When the skids leave ground and touch again, that's flight time.
Doing tours with hot refueling and hot pilot changes the book might read 10 hours block with 8 hours flight time. YMMV.

[aa777888]

The answer to your question is not straightforward. In summary there are potential savings to be had in some places and not others.

Start with reviewing pages 3.13 and 3.14 in the Life Limited Components section of the R22 maintenance manual:

https://robinsonheli.com/r22-maintenance-manual/

P.S. It's "Hobbs" not "HOBS". It's a name, not an acronym. :ok:

[valve guide]

I think the confusion is in the clarification of what 2200 "life" means??? Does it mean "flight hours" or "switched on" hours in whatever capacity that takes. R should really make it clearer so there is no confusion but since this original thread has been going since 2007 I doubt that will happen!!!

[roscoe1]

At least in the US, Airworthiness limitations are always clearly specified as to what they are based on be it flight-time, run-time (which I have never seen as a metric for a life limit), landings, cycles / cycle computations or calendar time. The Hobbs type meter is not required in any helicopter unless it is called out in the type certificate. You are always legally allowed to use your giant pilot wrist watch, stop watch, cell phone timer, or an egg timer to log flight time. The meter is a convenience only be it engine/transmission oil pressure activated or a collective activated switch. Of course many late model ships have timers and cycle counters as part of a VEMD or other built in data recorder. Most operators use flight time for maintenance actions and run time for billing customers but that varies.

[valve guide]

That sounds much more sensible. so in the US would it be 2200 runtime or flight time do you think?

[FH1100 Pilot]

That sounds much more sensible. so in the US would it be 2200 runtime or flight time do you think?

Seems pretty simple. According to the Robinson manual, the 2200 hours is based on "run-time" (engine start to engine stop). If you want to use your collective-actuated hourmeter to record time, then it's 1964 hours.

[aa777888]

I think the confusion is in the clarification of what 2200 "life" means??? Does it mean "flight hours" or "switched on" hours in whatever capacity that takes. R should really make it clearer so there is no confusion but since this original thread has been going since 2007 I doubt that will happen!!!
The maintenance manual makes it perfectly clear. Quoting from the manual:

"Use the following lives if time is tracked based on engine run time as recorded by an oil-pressure-activated hourmeter"

<or>

"Use the following lives if time is tracked based on flight (collective up) time as recorded by a collective-activated hourmeter"

That is completely clear and unambiguous. There is no requirement to multiply numbers by some factor or make any sort of calculation. Choose the type of hour meter you have and use the corresponding table.

[valve guide]

The maintenance manual makes it perfectly clear. Quoting from the manual:

"Use the following lives if time is tracked based on engine run time as recorded by an oil-pressure-activated hourmeter"

<or>

"Use the following lives if time is tracked based on flight (collective up) time as recorded by a collective-activated hourmeter"

That is completely clear and unambiguous. There is no requirement to multiply numbers by some factor or make any sort of calculation. Choose the type of hour meter you have and use the corresponding table.

Thanks for the clarification, is this the same for the R44 then?

[aa777888]

Thanks for the clarification, is this the same for the R44 then?
Seriously? You couldn't go to the Robinson web site and look at the R44 maintenance manual yourself? :rolleyes:

<sigh>

The answer is: it is not the same.

Section 3.002 states "An hourmeter activated by engine oil pressure is standard equipment on earlier R44 helicopters. Later helicopters are equipped with an hourmeter activated by a combination of oil pressure and up collective; the hourmeter will record time only when engine oil pressure exists and the collective is raised. Either hourmeter is an acceptable means of recording time in service (refer to Section 1.006)."

Section 1.006 states: "time in service means the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it touches it at the next point of landing."

Obviously, if you have a collective-activated Hobbs in your R44, then you really can't ask for a more economical method of calculating time in service. I can see how it would be tempting to want to apply some corrective factor to an oil pressure activated Hobbs in order to obtain a similar level of economy. I'm not an A&P or a lawyer :}, but even though 3.002 doesn't explicitly exclude alternative methods of calculating time in service, I would be hesitant to use any method other than the two types of Hobbs meters specified, particularly if some maintenance related incident should wind up with legal ramifications.

If you are looking for economy of maintenance, my recommendation is to simply install a collective activated Hobbs meter, rather than try to "game" the issue.

Based on the definition in 1.006, you could save precious seconds by installing a squat switch activated Hobbs :ok:

[valve guide]

Seriously? You couldn't go to the Robinson web site and look at the R44 maintenance manual yourself? :rolleyes:

<sigh>

The answer is: it is not the same.

Section 3.002 states "An hourmeter activated by engine oil pressure is standard equipment on earlier R44 helicopters. Later helicopters are equipped with an hourmeter activated by a combination of oil pressure and up collective; the hourmeter will record time only when engine oil pressure exists and the collective is raised. Either hourmeter is an acceptable means of recording time in service (refer to Section 1.006)."

Section 1.006 states: "time in service means the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it touches it at the next point of landing."

Obviously, if you have a collective-activated Hobbs in your R44, then you really can't ask for a more economical method of calculating time in service. I can see how it would be tempting to want to apply some corrective factor to an oil pressure activated Hobbs in order to obtain a similar level of economy. I'm not an A&P or a lawyer :}, but even though 3.002 doesn't explicitly exclude alternative methods of calculating time in service, I would be hesitant to use any method other than the two types of Hobbs meters specified, particularly if some maintenance related incident should wind up with legal ramifications.

If you are looking for economy of maintenance, my recommendation is to simply install a collective activated Hobbs meter, rather than try to "game" the issue.

Based on the definition in 1.006, you could save precious seconds by installing a squat switch activated Hobbs :ok:

Sorry you felt the need to sigh:confused: but based upon the various interpretations and different countries rules I was a bit confused, as it would seem are a lot of other more experienced people than me on this forum. Sorry I exasperated you to the point of sighing but thank you for your help in clarifying the point.

[aa777888]

...the various interpretations and different countries rules...
I should disclaim that I don't know anything about flying in the UK, where it would appear you are based, but I suspect that there would still be a fairly strict interpretation of the factory maintenance manual.