Still to many Pilots?

[arrow28]

Are there to many pilots?

An earlier thread.

Quote: REX.

I have found the following:


1) IFR regs (obviously)
2) Conversions and whiz wheel
3) Technical knowledge exam / test. (covering company equipment?)

Any more information, or specifics on what I have above would be much appreciated.



They must have a lot of applicants.

[milkbottle]

This post gave me a hard on

[WynSock]

Too many pilots who can't spell?

[Pappy Boyington]

Not to mention composing posts that make sense!;)

[Spelunker]

"Not to mention composing posts that make sense!"

too right. what the hell is this thread about? :confused:

[Over and gout]

Whilst the meaning of this thread remains a little confusing...I would have to agree with the thread title.
Yes there are waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy too many pilots !!!
The shortage is a myth

[2p!ssed2drive]

the price of eggs in china just went up :p

[Aerodynamisist]

I believe the pilot shortage exists in the middle ground between the 747 and the 210 because of a reduction of twin hours being flown in general aviation.

The days of the bank runners in the baron or 310 are over, or very nearly over.

Then theres the rise of the mighty 208b caravan taking the place of the piston twin. While some airlines recognize single turbine time but others are stuck in the past and are still requiring x hundred hours twin.
..
..
..


Quote: MAX.
I have lost the following
1)checklists
2)flight planning
3)cao 48
They didn't have any applicants

[remoak]

So where do I go with my 10,000 hours and 4,000 of jet command time? Because as far as I can work out, ain't nobody hiring, not for command at any rate.

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but as far as I can tell, the only real option is off to Euro-land where there is a major shortage on some types.

I'd be interested to know where all the vacancies are...

[Chimbu chuckles]

4000 hrs command on what romeok?

If it is on a bae146 yes I can see that would be a problem if you are not prepared to sit in the rhs of something for a year or two...but if it is anything built by Boeing or Airbus you must be kidding if you truly believe what you posted.

How does Asia, India and the ME sound...and not forgetting Europe...all terribly short of experienced widebody and narrowbody jet type rated captains.

Word on the street is that VB have been told by CASA that DECs are going to be a requirement to crew their expansion plans...they don't have the depth of experience required to promote from within and keep CASA happy.

[remoak]

How does Asia, India and the ME sound

Truly awful, to be honest.

not forgetting Europe

Not quite as awful, but I did my 20 years there and enough's enough.

I'm talking about NZ, or Oz if I lower my standards a bit... :p

Yes it was a 146, but so what? If there is truly an experience shortage, as there was in the UK in the late '80s, the type rating is irrelevant. The golden currency is experience, and preferably a good training record, and a nil accident/incident history, all of which I have. I've spent enough time in 737 sims to know that there are no particularly difficult bits for 146 guys, if anything the Boeing is a lot simpler and easier to manage, once you get your head around the pitch/power couple.

When I went to the UK in the late '80s, with my 701 hours, I had "yes" letters from 48 different airlines (few of which exist any more), and the one I eventually went to not only paid for my type rating, they paid for my UK Instrument Rating and CPL flight tests as well (that's about GBP8,000 worth of flying). I was a jet training captain within 8 years of sitting my CPL flight test.

So you'll excuse me if I find this talk of a "shortage" a little hard to swallow...

[bushy]

What they mean is there is a shortage of people who are qualified, experienced, type rated, and able to go to work immediately, at no cost to the airline. They do not want to spend money on training and testing, or pay high wages.
It's all to do with money.
Just like GA

[jsmitty01]

Agreed bushy.

In my part of Australia they complain of a labour shortage, yet when you look at job advertisements most want employees with high levels of experience or qualifications. The hospitality industry is one of the loudest with their complaints. When you are willing to take the time and effort to train and improve your employee's skills and you still cannot find staff, that is a shortage.

[remoak]

What they mean is there is a shortage of people who are qualified, experienced, type rated, and able to go to work immediately, at no cost to the airline. They do not want to spend money on training and testing, or pay high wages.
It's all to do with money.

Precisely. And in NZ, the "shortage" is talked up by the flight training industry in an effort to increase their revenues, a cynical act as it only makes the job hunt harder for the newbies. But then they don't care about that, do they...

[Tee Emm]

they don't have the depth of experience required to promote from within and keep CASA happy

Whoever in CASA has that opinion is obviously need of superannuating fast because he is obviously living in a different world. Virgin Blue first officers and captains are some of the most highly experienced at flying real aeroplanes in the Western world. I would back their skills anytime against the clowns in command of jets in Asia and Europle and the Middle East.

[remoak]

I would back their skills anytime against the clowns in command of jets in Asia and Europle and the Middle East.

Oh oh, watch out... lots of Aussies in command of those jets, like Chimbu Chuckles I think... or is he still an F/O after all these years... ;)

Even more reason not to want to fly in the Third World. The levels of discrimination and nepotism in most of the airlines there is beyond belief.

[Hydrant]

Tee Emm takes the award for the dumbest comment in the history of PPRUNE :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Tee Emm]

Tee Emm takes the award for the dumbest comment in the history of PPRUNE

Thank yew, thank yew, thank yew...Deal with it.

[podbreak]

Remoak - speaking specifically of Australia;

With respect, if you are not willing to sit in the RHS of a new type, why would they want to hire you? They are hiring FOs at a high rate, but thats as far as this shortage goes.

[remoak]

if you are not willing to sit in the RHS of a new type, why would they want to hire you?

Because in the real world (ie outside Oz/NZ), you get hired in the rank that you hold, unless moving to a much larger type, or unless you are an inexperienced captain.

So, for example, when I did my Easyjet sim check and interview, I was offered a direct entry command on the 737, and I had the same offer from Ryanair. That was at a time when I only had about 1000 jet command hours.

The same holds true in the contract world. Even some larger airlines, such as Emirates, hire captains for captains slots.

It is mostly in the South Pacific that you get this "must join at the bottom" bull. It is a rite of passage in OZ/NZ aviation, with no logical basis.

More to the point, if there was really a shortage, there would be no requirement to put highly experienced commanders in the RHS.

[podbreak]

Because in the real world (ie outside Oz/NZ), you get hired in the rank that you hold, unless moving to a much larger type, or unless you are an inexperienced captain.

Asia, Europe, Middle East - given, however they are parts of the world where desperation for crew has had this effect.

I would consider a 737/A320 to be quite a jump up from a 146.

It is mostly in the South Pacific that you get this "must join at the bottom" bull. It is a rite of passage in OZ/NZ aviation, with no logical basis.

More to the point, if there was really a shortage, there would be no requirement to put highly experienced commanders in the RHS.

I disagree that there is no logic, why when there are plenty of upgradable FOs suitable for the rank would you hire over the top? Only if there weren't enough of these folk to fill the skipper slots of course, which hasn't really been the case. The benefits of a pilot sitting in both seats of a particular aircraft should also not be underestimated..

So you say, there you have it, no shortage. Well, no, look at this sector in the past, we are talking about Australia specifically. There is a shortage in Australian terms.

[remoak]

I would consider a 737/A320 to be quite a jump up from a 146.It isn't. What is hard about a 737? Only two engines, simple systems, stable, no real vices. And the A320 is even easier. I have done three sim checks on "proper" 737 sims and aced them all - and I'm not even an ace.

why when there are plenty of upgradable FOs suitable for the rank would you hire over the top?You wouldn't, necessarily, but that isn't what I am talking about. There are plenty of operations in both countries that are crying out for some experience in the LHS, but they will steadfastly refuse to put some very experienced guys in the LHS, they would rather promote an F/O who has the bare minimum experience necessary to hold a command. So now you have a situation where a new captain with the bare minimum requirement, is potentially flying with a brand new F/O. This isn't necessarily dangerous, but the holes in the swiss cheese are starting to line up.

Meanwhile, your experienced guy is forced to start at the bottom, for no good reason other than company policy, honed by years of militant unionism, and the somewhat odd idea that the F/Os in the company have a god-given right to the next command slot that becomes available. In real life, a lot of these guys are unwilling to take the pay drop, and are lost to the industry forever.

It is the only industry I can think of where new hires must start at the bottom, regardless of their experience or previous rank. Try that one in a hospital, software company, police force, or even the armed forces. Never happens.

Outside the parochial boundries of Oceania, the world has moved on. Hence the progressive LoCo's I mentioned have long since abandoned the practices that exist here... and we haven't even discussed the good old "must have 50 hours recent NZ IF to be considered" crap.

The benefits of a pilot sitting in both seats of a particular aircraft should also not be underestimated..

Huh...???? :confused::confused::confused:

[morno]

remoak, why don't you quit your whinging bitching attitude, and go over to Europe/ME/Asia if you're so pissed off with our system down here??

[haughtney1]

remoak, why don't you quit your whinging bitching attitude, and go over to Europe/ME/Asia if you're so pissed off with our system down here??

Nice.......a few home truths explained, and you get told to foxtrot oscar...nice.

Remoak...I here you mate

[Henry Winkler]

Remoak.
How did you get a command? Didn't you start as an F/O, move your way up to command? But now that your a Captain, all the guys moving up the ladder (just as you did, I expect), can now get stuffed because you want a big fat Pay Check and are not prepared to sit in the RHS. Am I right?

[podbreak]

Remoak, for a sensible answer :ok:;

It isn't. What is hard about a 737? Only two engines, simple systems, stable, no real vices. And the A320 is even easier. I have done three sim checks on "proper" 737 sims and aced them all - and I'm not even an ace.


Originally you said:
unless moving to a much larger type

I could also say, what is hard about a 777? Only two engines, simple systems, stable, no real vices. Yet I would be kidding myself suggesting it isn't a 'larger type'. The same for 146 vs 737, thats the point I was making.

There are plenty of operations in both countries that are crying out for some experience in the LHS

Now that is interesting. Most organisations that are crying for skippers, are hiring captains (mostly regionals). The companies that aren't, at least where I am, have no problem with inexperience, and your 10000hrs would be dwarfed.

they would rather promote an F/O who has the bare minimum experience necessary to hold a command

Last time I checked the promotion wasn't just a signature on a piece of paper. Don't forget that in most cases these F/Os have thousands of hours on type, while mr 'I've got 6000hrs in the LHS' has just completed his endorsement.

So now you have a situation where a new captain with the bare minimum requirement, is potentially flying with a brand new F/O.

I don't think you thought about this one. Every time an F/O is upgraded there is the 'potential' for this to happen, whether they hire experienced captains directly or not. Incidently this also happens in Europe, Asia and the Middle East! The only solution would be to never upgrade F/Os. Thats fair....

[remoak]

Henry Winkler

Am I right?Nope. You are only seeing one small part of the issue. It isn't JUST about "me me me".

podbreak

The same for 146 vs 737, thats the point I was making.The 146-200 has a MTOW of around 42,000kg. The original 737 had a MTOW of 42,411kg, and the type rating makes no distinction between the variants. So how is the 737, per se, much larger than the 146? The later versions obviously are, but the extra size makes little difference to the handling characteristics of the aircraft, so makes little practical difference (or so my 737 buddies tell me).

It is interesting to me that Airbus went for commonality in it's cockpit design, precisely so that pilots could transition easily between the types - even the ATR was designed with the entire Airbus family in mind. They get that handling these aircraft has little to do with mass. It isn't like the old days, where transitioning from a small jet (say a 727) to a larger one (say a DC10) involved a completely new layout and systems design. Even worse if you were transitioning from an F27 or similar to ANY jet...

Don't forget that in most cases these F/Os have thousands of hours on type, while mr 'I've got 6000hrs in the LHS' has just completed his endorsement....which is all fine and dandy, but it wasn't my point. I am talking about the operations where they would RATHER promote a person with the minimum possible experience, than hire a guy with heaps of it, including a lot of time on type (and the reasons why).

I don't think you thought about this one. Every time an F/O is upgraded there is the 'potential' for this to happen, whether they hire experienced captains directly or not.Yeah, I really did think about it. The point is that if you have a lot of inexperienced captains flying with a lot of inexperienced F/Os, the risk goes up - the holes in the swiss cheese. That is why many aviation authorities insist that there be a depth of experience in the LHS. Most of the LoCos in Europe have had this issue, and it why they were forced into large DEC campaigns. It would not surprise me at all if CASA were monitoring the experience levels at VB. The UK CAA have a ratio (don't know what it is) of experienced captains vs. new captains that they apply. I had my own promotion slowed several times because of this - the airline was forced to hire DEC rather than promote.

The difference is that the JAR nations (well, most of them) put safety over the "rights" of the pilot to progress at the most rapid possible rate. The reverse is true down here, particularly in NZ. It isn't an issue yet, because the experience base is high, but it could well become an issue in the future.

I'd still like someone to explain why the airline industry downunder works this way, when virtually no other industry does. In most industries, promotion is on merit, ability, and experience. The UK LoCos do this now, and their pilots seem fine with it. It is written into your T's and C's that there is no automatic right to promotion, in most UK airlines.

The reason why it will never change down here is the same basic reason that '89 happened... hmmm perhaps I shouldn't start that one again... :}

[Icarus2001]

I am talking about the operations where they would RATHER promote a person with the minimum possible experience, than hire a guy with heaps of it, No sorry you lost me just about there.
I cannot think of one company doing this in the jet world in oz at present, plenty of turboprop operators are doing it.
Podbreak is spot on the money, you as a DE Captain on a 737 would be low time (zero in fact) on type flying with an FO who probably has more experience than you on type, a poor gradient.
If you want the job you have to jump through the hoops or return to Europe. Have you had interviews? Perhaps they picked up something about you in the interview?:cool:

[remoak]

you as a DE Captain on a 737 would be low time (zero in fact) on type flying with an FO who probably has more experience than you on type, a poor gradient.

That is complete nonsense. Command suitability is not about time on type, it is about decision-making and judgement abilities that only come with experience. It doesn't matter how many hours you have on type, if you don't have the overall experience and judgement that comes with command (ie time). Low time on type but lots of overall command experience beats lots of time on type but little command experience, every time.

As for your last para, well that really says it all. An inability to argue the point, but instead resort to insults, is the behaviour of someone who should not be allowed command of a bicycle. A great pity that you cannot see that the hoops themselves are the problem, or that aviation outside Oz has moved on. That is because they have figured out the old ways don't work in the modern environment.

Some of you are so conditioned by the system that you work in, that you cannot see it's faults. Sad.

[puff]

It is the only industry I can think of where new hires must start at the bottom, regardless of their experience or previous rank. Try that one in a hospital, software company, police force, or even the armed forces. Never happens

Funny enough it actually does, if you were a Sgt with the NSW police service and wanted to move to QLD you would have to do a new 'school' with the QPS and join as a Constable. If you leave a police force ias ANY rank you always have to return as a constable. So in QF speak that would be like a 744 skipper having to return to QF as a S/O! , so infact it does happen with other 'rank' and file occupations.

Airlines like DJ basically had 'accelerated' commands for a lot of the highly experienced F/Os from AN, a lot of those guys got commands over guys with hardly any hours but started before them, so I think to say that guys with no experience are getting commands over outsiders is a little bit of an overkill. Australia has always had a lot of highly experienced F/Os that would have had Commands years ago in any other part of the world. Cadets at QF are sidestepped for commands and F/O upgrades over more experienced DEC pilots despite 'seniority'.

Interesting you also state that the BAe146 isn't much of a jump to the 737/A320. When Ansett was around a lot of pilots struggled and failed command courses and lateral promotions on both of those a/c types and ended up back on the quadrapuff. Most that did make it stated it was a big jump. FMC was a big hurdle for a lot it seemed.

Sadly a lot of things in aviation aren't necessarily right, but it is what it is, and it is their(employers) train sets so to speak.

[podbreak]

Yeah, I really did think about it. The point is that if you have a lot of inexperienced captains flying with a lot of inexperienced F/Os, the risk goes up - the holes in the swiss cheese

The point I got was from your previous post;

So now you have a situation where a new captain with the bare minimum requirement, is potentially flying with a brand new F/O.

...and as I said before it happens everywhere. It may have happened more in the LoCos in EU, but as you said that has changed. I can safely say that at the moment its not commonplace. Why? There is plenty of experience in the F/O ranks. We aren't riddled with fresh-faced 300hr pilots in our airlines yet (QF cadets a minority), so what makes you think the operators should have a DEC req?

Command suitability is not about time on type, it is about decision-making and judgement abilities that only come with experience.

How much experience is enough? Take a closer look at the VB and J* ranks, I think you'll note the experience level is very high compared to any LoCo in the Euros!

and, to quote you;

Command suitability is not about time on type

Therefore though the majority of these guys and gals have TP or Piston time it is apparently of little consequence.

Most of the LoCos in Europe have had this issue, and it why they were forced into large DEC campaigns

These companies would have prefered to promote internally, but EU has next to no GA feeders, a problem Oz doesn't have. That doesn't mean we haven't a relative pilot shortage.:ok:

[Angle of Attack]

There's a lot of valuable comments here, but lets face it if you have 10,000 hours and your complaining about not being able to get a job, well, theres an issue there. There is a pilot shortage, but hours dont mean everything, and if your complaining on pprune then its even worse lol! I mean, honestly, honestly, I know guys with 1000 hours that are cruising into jet jobs overseas with commands within the next 2 years. Yeah if you wanna stay in NZ then so be it don't complain man. Your like the GA guy with too many hours complaining they didnt get a twin job lol!
:ugh:

Me now!
Me now!
haha

[Rabbit 1]

Depends too on your employment status. A check of Parc, IAC, Rishworth and others will reveal recency requirements that don't count a CIR sim renewal since they mostly require actual pole time within the specified advertised limits. Personally, I'd be inclined to accept the r/h seat and be thankful of a job in this neck of the woods.

[haughtney1]

Hang on a second Pod..
Therefore though the majority of these guys and gals have TP or Piston time it is apparently of little consequence.

I read Remoak's comment to mean experience that is relevant:= its bloody obvious a 5000hr single pilot Navajo wonder would be woefully ill equipped to take command in a modern glass cockpit. Similarly, many experienced TP pilots struggle to convert to jets simply because of the difference in the physics involved and the differing profiles flown.
I happen to take the view point that it is the relevance of the experience that is important...why else do you see DJ 737 guys easing into an EK 777?
Going from a 146 into a more automated and easier to fly beast..is certainly not a big step, guys over here accomplish similar things all the time...with little trouble.
Remoak makes a fair point, and his assertion is based on his personal experience...which I can back up with anecdotal evidence from my own sources.
Flying in NZ and Oz is not that different to anywhere else, the fact is however, the thinking towards DEC's is based on outdated situations and circumstances, and in no small part to the protectionist attitude prevalent in the industry there. Experience if not gained for "said" operator on "said" type is not considered valuable, that IMHO is about as damming an indictment as can be leveled.

I can only conclude that remoak's commentCommand suitability is not about time on type, it is about decision-making and judgement abilities that only come with experience. It doesn't matter how many hours you have on type, if you don't have the overall experience and judgement that comes with command (ie time).
Is either being disregarded, or is not understood by those who wish to defend their corner, either way, you are missing the point:=

[podbreak]

haughtney1,

I got the point the first time. I am well aware of how it is, and I'm certainly not 'defending' my corner. I'll explain simply how this began;

Remoak said:

So where do I go with my 10,000 hours and 4,000 of jet command time? Because as far as I can work out, ain't nobody hiring, not for command at any rate.

aside from the regionals who most definitely are hiring for command, I explained:

They are hiring FOs at a high rate, but thats as far as this shortage goes.

Remoak made the point that the fact they aren't hiring LHSeaters has left a gaping hole of experience. This is not the truth. It happened in Europe, hence the DEC campaigns, but it hasn't happened in Australia. The majority of FOs in Australia have significant command time, in addition the years they spent as an FO of jet time and time on type. They are more than equipped. Suggesting the experience crisis is anywhere near what it was/is in Europe is just plain WRONG.
Remoak makes a fair point, and his assertion is based on his personal experience
Likewise.

Now if there is no shortage of experience in the FO ranks, tell me what is fair about hiring over the top?

I read Remoak's comment to mean experience that is relevant:= its bloody obvious a 5000hr single pilot Navajo wonder would be woefully ill equipped to take command in a modern glass cockpit.

Is multicrew TP experience relevant? It certainly is, there is plenty of that amongst the FOs waiting for their command.

The point is: There is a relative shortage of pilots in Australia, and compared to what it was, it is getting better for us. To answer Remoak's question; Europe, Asia or the ME... but somehow I think he/she already knew that...

[Metro man]

At 48 years old with a 146 on your licence, even with substantial good experience you are not gods gift to the airlines accept that.

Luckily for you there is a shortage at the moment so make the best of it while you can. Take a right seat job on a 737/A320, keep your head down for a couple of years and get upgraded. Then enjoy the next 10 years as a skipper until you retire.

I'm doing that right now, some of the Captains I fly with are 10+ years younger than me, with less than half my total time. I was an experienced pilot while they were still in school. They were in the right place at the right time, I wasn't that's life. I'm getting good pay and experience all the time, possible upgrade in a year or two and the doors are opening should I wish to move on. Another two months and QATAR would look at me, another year for Emirates. This time last year I wouldn't have even got a reply from them.

The longer you leave it, the harder it gets. Do it now while the time is ripe or you will be in your fifties with an obsolete type on your licence and no one will look at you.

[Wizofoz]

remoak,

I also joined easyJet as a 737 DEC. They, and virtually all other operators in Europe, would rather promote F/Os from within than hire DECs, but had a specific problem with insufficient qualified F/Os (and, in European terms, insufficient meant less than the 3000hrs TOTAL time required for the upgrade.)

I've since taken another DEC position, once again because the companies needs meant they COULDN'T promote quickly enough from within to cope with it's expansion.

I'm fortunate and grateful for both opportunities, but I don't feel in the least entitled to go over the head of incumbent FOs if there are enough to cover the positions.

I've known many people of your experience and mine (which is greater BTW) take the step back to F/O (and more than a few to S/O) not just in AUS but in Europe, Asia and the Middle east in order to get where they want to be.

The fact that the requirements for entry to any of the Australian Jet operations is so high means that they would rarely be in a position where they could not promote from within, and nor should they.

I've spent the last six years in the "Real World" of which you speak, and have found it different to the way you describe it.

[metro752]

In the Real World in the US.............No airlines hire street captains unless they are a new upstart airline or are so desperate for experienced pilots, that they are horribly losing money that they must. This is so rare, you never really hear about it. I am talking for regionals, flying DH8-Q400s, CRJs, ERJs.

Nobody gets hired directly into the left seat on a big jet (read BOEING) unless it's a brand new airline beginning operations, ie Virgin America, or Jet Blue recently, but even then the guys in the left seats were extremely experienced, and probably CA's at other airlines.

Upgrading based on merit or some other bullsh1t doesn't fly here in the U.S.

Seniority is how you upgrade, you blow your checks while getting an upgrade and your usually throw out. There's your merit and skills test.

Sorry, had to post, I cannot believe seniority would be bypassed at any airline.

[Wizofoz]

metro,

Well, on the OTHER side of the coin, you should realise that in large parts of the rest of the world, there IS no seniority.

It is not a universal holy writ.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Don't get me wrong remoak I am not knocking the 'fischer price starlifter'...flown them myself...not my favorite aeroplane ever but they aren't bad...and about the most overly complicated 2 crew jet around.

I too have climbed the slippery pole to jet command and even C&Ting on 'little jets' and then through life's circumstances taken a job as an SFO on widebody. I am most of the way through my command training as I type after 3 yrs back in the cheap seats.:}

There is certainly a bit of a perceived barrier at 50-55000kg...call it snobbery if you like but that is just the way it is.

That 3 years wasn't unpleasant...new type (B767) new routes and destinations...time in the RHS of a new type is never wasted...PLENTY of time flying with captains sometimes 10+ years younger than I (and much less experienced in general terms) but they were all great to fly with...and I wouldn't swap my path to the LHS of a widebody for theirs under any circumstances...I have had a ball....but it was still the case that my experience was on 'the wrong' type aircraft...that is no longer the case.:ok:

I would suggest if you want to continue flying you get a job in an airline as an SFO...VB and J* are recruiting like crazy and especially J* have HUGE expansion plans...another 30+ jets on the way including 15 787s.

If you join now and tick all the boxes for a couple of years you would be back in the LHS of possibly a VERY substantial aeroplane.

There is a shortage of experience but the real effects loom large on the horizon still rather than being already here. Airline management still haven't got their heads around it completely but they will soon enough:E .

[remoak]

Puff

Interesting you also state that the BAe146 isn't much of a jump to the 737/A320. When Ansett was around a lot of pilots struggled and failed command courses and lateral promotions on both of those a/c types and ended up back on the quadrapuff. Most that did make it stated it was a big jump. FMC was a big hurdle for a lot it seemed.Funny then how the Euro experience is completely different. Interesting that all the UK locos are more than happy to take 146 guys as DEC, and they don't have a lot of training failures. Same goes for Emirates and others.

More to the point, if Ansett were binning people because they didn't get the FMC, then there must have been some other issue going on. You teach the FMC in the classroom, not the sim. Under the Euro system, from memory, you don't even need to use the FMC for a proficiency check. Any airline that had a candidate who possessed good handling skills but was a little slow with the FMC, and canned them om that basis, has a very odd way of looking at training.

podbreak

so what makes you think the operators should have a DEC req?I didn't say that they should, necessarily, except where there is a clear experience shortfall in the LHS - I was responding to the point about CASA allegedly requiring VB to hire DECS for that reason.

Remoak made the point that the fact they aren't hiring LHSeaters has left a gaping hole of experience.No, I didn't. I suggested that this COULD happen. Others obviously think it already IS happening (ie VB).

Is multicrew TP experience relevant? It certainly isNot necessarily. Banging around in a Conquest or a King Air, even multi-crew, doesn't prepare you for the speed and inertia of most jets, never mind the different handling characteristics. Using that logic, lots of 152 time must be a good preparation for a turborop, especially if you take a mate along to handle the radios.

In my time in check and training, the people we chopped the most of were the light twin drivers with an overdose of "look at me, I'm flying big planes" about them...

There is a relative shortage of pilots in AustraliaI thought about it for half an hour, and I still have no idea what that means...

Metro man

At 48 years old with a 146 on your licence, even with substantial good experience you are not gods gift to the airlines accept that.It isn't the only type on my licence, but thanks for the insult.

So in your career, you have gone from command (of a Chieftain?), to F/O of a jet, then you propose to up sticks and move to Qatar, and then to Emirates? That might be your dream career, but it certainly isn't mine.

The longer you leave it, the harder it gets. Do it now while the time is ripe or you will be in your fifties with an obsolete type on your licence and no one will look at you.Really? I had no idea it worked like that... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Metro man... yeah, really...:rolleyes:

Wizofoz

I don't feel in the least entitled to go over the head of incumbent FOs if there are enough to cover the positions.Nor do I, and I have already said so. It is only where there is a clear experience issue in the LHS. My point is that the Euro airlines recognise the problem and deal with it, but the Aus/Kiwi airlines will do anything to avoid hiring a DEC. Unions 1 - Safety 0.

metro752

Upgrading based on merit or some other bullsh1t doesn't fly here in the U.S.

Seniority is how you upgrade, you blow your checks while getting an upgrade and your usually throw out. There's your merit and skills test.Yeah and let's look at the state of US airlines... most either in, or have recently been, in Chapter 11... heavily unionised by militant unions... pay and conditions that have closed some airlines, and which are now dropping through the floor as everyone realises that they were never viable... etc etc etc.

And you also have wonderful stuff like furloughs... never see that in Europe. Thanks, but you can keep your "real world", it is one of the least progressive airline environments on the planet.

Chimbu

through life's circumstancesI'm just guessing here, but a lot of Aussies use that phrase... you are referring to 89, right? An event that goes a long way to proving my point. And when you say "taken a job as an SFO on widebody", what you really mean is that you have been forced to go and fly in Asia somewhere, probably on of the less glamourous carriers, in order to get a foothold back on the ladder - right?

I'm not saying that is wrong, or bad, or anything, it's the choice you made. Personally, I would rather live in nice, civilised (for the most part) NZ and get to play with my kids, than have to do what you are doing to keep flying. I don't love flying more than my family, and for that reason I haven't gone down that road - although I was within a whisker of accepting a DEC offer on the 767ER with Air Japan (who don't seem to have a problem with the quadrapuff).

LHS of possibly a VERY substantial aeroplane. Who cares? Once the cockpit door is shut, they are all pretty much the same. I don't want to fly an automated marvel that records my every input and scolds me if I attempt to deviate from the somewhat rigid rules. I don't particularly want to sit there for eight hours watching the thing fly itself. YMMV.

Personally, I have started my own aviation business, with an earning potential many times that of any airline in this part of the world. I do the occasional contract in Euroland to keep my hand in, and I fly small things when I feel like it. It's a better life (for me)... I haven't even bothered applying to any Oz or NZ airlines - for those who think that this is all sour grapes. Too much arse-licking and grovelling required.

I just believe that the processes and practices down here suck. They are parochial and blinkered. Get away from these shores, and things are very different.

YMMV, and that's fine.

[Chimbu chuckles]

You couldn't be more wrong.

[podbreak]

Remoak this has gone on long enough, I think your mind is made up and your perception of our industry isn't going to change, however;

except where there is a clear experience shortfall in the LHS - I was responding to the point about CASA allegedly requiring VB to hire DECS for that reason

There isn't, the CASA aren't.

I suggested that this COULD happen

Yes, but it hasn't yet. Hence they don't want/need you.

Not necessarily. Banging around in a Conquest or a King Air, even multi-crew, doesn't prepare you for the speed and inertia of most jets

No, thats why they become FOs first, but as you said command qualities can be gained without the 'speed and inertia', or more specifically REGARDLESS OF TYPE.
I was within a whisker of accepting a DEC offer on the 767ER with Air Japan
What about the inertia? Faster and bigger than the 146...

I thought about it for half an hour, and I still have no idea what that means...

Its pretty clear, there are fewer pilots to jobs now then there was before.

It is only where there is a clear experience issue in the LHS. My point is that the Euro airlines recognise the problem and deal with it, but the Aus/Kiwi airlines will do anything to avoid hiring a DEC

For the third time; We are nowhere near where Europe is/was. If you worked with us you'd know that.

I don't want to fly an automated marvel that records my every input and scolds me if I attempt to deviate from the somewhat rigid rules. I don't particularly want to sit there for eight hours watching the thing fly itself.

Now i'm confused, you want to stay in the regionals then, well they ARE hiring, doesn't sound like you want to fly an A320/737.

I haven't even bothered applying to any Oz or NZ airlines

Now I really feel like i've wasted my time, check out your original post. No one hiring captains, shouldn't matter to you then...

This is a pointless thread drift....:ugh:

[Metro man]

I get to live in a nice civilised place over here. I can walk to the beach in 15 minutes, work is only half an hour away. As all the flying is out and back I get to see more of my kids than I did in Australia. If I want I can afford a full time maid and a new car. Overseas holidays twice a year. This is on an F/O salary.

Recently I had the opportunity to move back to Oz flying the same type, I didn't take it. At the moment I take home about the same as a Captain in DJ/J* when I get upgraded in another year or two I get a 50% pay increase.

When I move on there are plenty of possibilities, not just QATAR or EK. I don't really fancy the sandpit just using them as examples.

Being in Asia is not a hardship I put up with just to keep flying or save money.

Actually you are right I did fly a Chieftain for a while and was overqualified for it having an ATPL 4000+ hours and turbine time but it beat being out of work. It also led me into another job which led me into this. I put my head down and got on with it rather than complain about it being beneath me and waiting for something better which might never arrive. It was worth it in the end.;)