Police/HEMS line pilot vacancy

[Thomas coupling]

A line pilot position has become available with the North Wales Police Air Operations Unit to fly the EC135 police/HEMS helicopter.
For details please refer to:
Flight International as of April 2nd.
and/or:
http://www.north-wales.police.uk
click 'recruitment', then ' police staff'.
I have only just checked the draft advert so don't expect anything in print until the end of March, beginning of April.
Our minimum criteria:
2000hrs total, of which 1500 PiC.
200hrs T.T.
300hrs onshore exp.
200hrs night flying experience, of which 50hrs PiC.
Substantial mountain flying experience.
Type rating/police experience not essential.
This is a direct employment post with all the usual benefits.
IF you are genuinely interested in applying and you wish to know more, e-mail me.

[MightyGem]

There's one going at Lancashire as well.

[SilsoeSid]

TC,

Followed the link but
Recruitment - Police Staff
Police Staff

Please click on the job titles below for more information:

There are currently no vacancies

Is it too late to apply?

Please can you verify for us, "Substantial mountain flying experience".
Would an Austrian Air Force High Mountain Landing Course, Saillagouse, AAC dets and a bit of work with the Snowdonia National Park be enough?
Or are you looking for someone from across the pond?

Thanks.
SS

[Thud_and_Blunder]

There's one going at Lancashire as well.
No mention anywhere of a forthcoming vacancy at WCAOU by any chance, is there? :ooh: :ouch:

[Helinut]

Direct Employment seems to be the up and coming thing. What with the effect of the revised PITO framework and the trickle of pilots from the existing DE Units :ok:

My sources tell me there is likely to be a need for replacement line pilot at Sussex too in the near future.

[Thomas coupling]

Silsoe: Not too late, too early in fact. Ad comes out around 2/4. (Hence nothing in the web site yet).

Your mountain flying exp. seems fine - It's not the size of the mountains that count it's what you do with them that requires the experience!
Get your application in if you fancy waking up each morning to some of the most beautiful scenery in the UK.

Good luck.

[MightyGem]

No mention anywhere of a forthcoming vacancy at WCAOU by any chance

Don't think so, but it looks like there might be a vacancy at West Mids soon...:rolleyes:

[handysnaks]

Yeah, right:rolleyes:

[MINself]

Thud_and_Blunder, would that be a fail to stop type opening? :oh:

[ChristopherRobin]

I bet the pay is in line with the high skills/hours needed...

...or 'B'

[flimflam]

so, what do we think the remuneration will be for this position?

Is poor pay the reason for the vacancy? :rolleyes:

[Helinut]

flimflam,

On the basis of the last avertisements for the post, no one will ever know apart from those who work there.

[Hingmay]

Hi, sounds good two me. I am interested. Ex mil (AAC) with over 4000 hrs but no twin. That is usually the problem for me..

[Hingmay]

Whats the score with the vacancy in Lancs?

[sss]

with over 4000 hrs but no twin

that's ok, just tell them you will use the one engine at a time, and it will also save the police service a few quid in engine hours

[wg13_dummy]

Hi, sounds good two me. I am interested. Ex mil (AAC) with over 4000 hrs but no twin. That is usually the problem for me..


Hingmay, your problem isn't no twin time, it's the fact that you can't speak English. ;)

[Thomas coupling]

I think you'll find the pay is in the top percentile for the emergency services industry as it's a directly employed post. This job also comes with a final salary pension, overtime, expenses, LOL.

[Hingmay]

Tell me about it... where is the logic nowadays?

[cyclic_fondler]

Hingmay, your problem isn't no twin time, it's the fact that you can't speak English.

wg13_dummy, If you're based around North Wales then the locals might prefer that you can't speak English!;)

[wg13_dummy]

If the Independent Republic of North Wales bump into Hingmay, they'll think he's from another planet.....:} :}

[Thomas coupling]

Hingmay and Vidal 423: I can't respond to your PPurune e-mail address because it says you are not receiving any e-mails. Is there a problem?

I checked the advert this morning and it goes to Flt Int for approval - hopefully then into their next weeks deadline copy. [April 2nd].

I'll chase up the Police web site tomorrow.

regards,

TC

[Hingmay]

I think Ive sorted out my email.. but I aint no computer expert..:ugh:

John

[Hingmay]

Hey,

Cant reply as your inbox is full

:ugh: :=

[Thomas coupling]

Sorry , been away. Try now!

TC

[Bravo73]

The ad has now appeared on the online version of Flight International:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Jobs/2007/04/03/9002313/helicopter-pilot-north-wales-flight-crew.html

[ShyTorque]

No sign of the "low flying experience" that used to be required. Is this a mistake, or a sign of the times?

[RVDT]

45K "package"? Ouch!

[flimflam]

What does package mean? £45k salary plus benefits, or £45k including benefits?

[Whirlygig]

The actual North Wales Police website describes the remuneration of £45k as "salary" so I would have thought that pension, BUPA, company car, dancing girls and other fringe benefits are on top of that!

Cheers

Whirls

[Hoveronly]

Not sure if they would prove a perk!:hmm:

[Thomas coupling]

£45000 is the basic, in addition:
Annual increments / yr for first 2 yrs.
Annual pay rises i.a.w. public sector pay committee.
Pension (final salary)
Overtime based on a 37hr week.
Very generous LOL
31 days off /annum
3D, 3N, 4OFF regime. Working on average about 160hrs/28 day period.

[thecontroller]

just curious, apart from ex-mil/ex north sea, who has 200 hours night in this country? not many i bet.

[Big-Windy]

Does anyone have an opinion on that salary. IMHO it's pretty much in line with the going rates for most of us employed by PAS/Macs/Bond isn't it? Perhaps for a DE unit, they should be offering something better?

[bell222]

no mention of sheep in the package :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Bertie Thruster]

The licence requirement is also a bit odd. I could understand an "old timer" with a CAA ATPL(H) moving just for a bit of a scenery change but why would any one with an unrestricted JAA ATPL(H) consider a drop to £45k?

[TeeS]

Ouch Bertie, who are you calling an old timer! :)

Anyway, it might be a fair old drop in pay but the houses are cheap.

And Bell, I think the sheep are only included in the Senior Pilot package, sorry.

TeeS

[Bertie Thruster]

.....perhaps the ad should have read ".....JAA CPL(H)...." to encompass more younger (or older but fresher out of the mil) brethren?

[What Limits]

There are a lot of pilots currently employed by PremiAir/PAS/Bond for whom this would be a very attractive remuneration package, apart from.............

[flimflam]

There are a lot of pilots who don't work for the three companies mentioned for whom this would be a significant pay cut!!

[helimutt]

It's a lot more than some of us North Sea offshore guys earn!! Shame I only have 5 hours night and a two year bond!

:E

[Bertie Thruster]

There are a lot of pilots currently employed by PremiAir/PAS/Bond for whom this would be a very attractive remuneration package,


I wonder how many of those pilots have the "unrestricted JAA ATPL(H)" requested in the N Wales ad?

[Big-Windy]

Hmmm, good thinking Bertie. I haven't seen the published advert but in order to enjoy a JAA ATPL (H) don't you have to have at least 500 hours in a two pilot chopper on your ticket?

[Helinut]

A JAA ATPL(H) also requires an IR(H), which seems a bit pointless for a non-IFR helicopter

[Thomas coupling]

It specifically states JAA or CAA ATPL(H).
Please lets not let this degenerate into specifics.
It's a job offer - are some of you never happy?
Pilots who have (had) CAA ATPL's are the ones we are looking for. Their time in the industry probably reflects they have/had possession of this relevant qualification in the past and may have transferred to the JAR equivalent.
Does a JAR CPL (H) have 2000 hrs, or would he/she have translated it into an ATPL by then? Aren't IR's compulsory for JAR ATPL's?

Just to clarify: We will take suitable applicants provided they have an unrestricted licence to fly single pilot public transport helicopters in the UK and can demonstrate they comply with the requirements laid down in the advert.

Let's be grown up about this.

[Bertie Thruster]

TC. All recent ex-mil pilots will only get a JAA CPL(H) if they are not IR, no matter how many thousands of hours they have. So your JAA ATPL requirement limits the field for experienced guys holding JAA licences.

Your reply 44 still does not make it clear whether you require IR or not!


Helinut; For an "unrestricted" JAA ATPL(H) you do require an IR.
It is possible, however, to hold a JAA ATPL(H) without IR, "restricted" to VFR.
eg, if you have converted from a (non IR) CAA ATPL(H)
You would of course need the required multipilot time for such a conversion.

[Thomas coupling]

No IR required.

[Bertie Thruster]

So you might need to delete the "unresticted JAA(ATPL)H" bit in the advert?

[BRASSEMUP]

Who cares! It's a JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh: And getting that job will make somebodies day.:ok:

[Bertie Thruster]

BRASSEMUP: I do care. That's why I'm trying to clear the meaning of the job advert.

If you infer in the advert that an IR is required (by stating "unrestricted JAA ATPL") then a lot of those "somebodies" you mention might not even apply!

[Letsby Avenue]

Hey Bertie.. You seem to be absolutely the wrong stuff so to speak, Knowing TC as I do you will be rumbled in seconds, care or don't care, I wouldn't bother applying if I were you.:}

[Bertie Thruster]

Hey, Letsby.. you are so absolutely right!

[jayteeto]

45 Grand!! That would be a significant pay rise for me as a line pilot at Liverpool. I've got an IR, but it is on fixed wing :confused:

[332mistress]

£45K is that for a co-pilot job:E

332M

[Twisted Rigging]

A poorly paid co-pilot:hmm:

[Big-Windy]

It's great fun getting involved in the semantics - isn't that just the nature of Pprune?
Seriously though, I'm sure that TC would love to offer more, far more, having experienced some of the more daunting tasks that N Wales has to offer. Alas, he's bound by the terms laid down by the HR dept.
It's a shame because reading between the lines, the above posts tell me that we're ALL secretly disappointed at the value placed on our experience.
Has anyone got any ideas on how to raise the game for police/HEMS wages across the UK? Direct employment was supposed to make a significant difference, I don't see that it has. Am I wrong?

[jayteeto]

I must be a bit sheltered Big Windy, but that wage IS a significant rise compared to my police line pilot salary. The benefits are not bad either. OK, you will never be a millionaire in this game, but if money is your goal then get up to aberdeen and do some earning. I like my shift pattern, the work can be busy but isn't anywhere near as difficult as military flying and you have a life in the area you wish to live. The downside is less money, less is not always worse....

[ShyTorque]

Lifestyle, JT2, lifestyle. The money isn't everything. ;)

It's when they offer you a pay drop, you know it's definitely time to move on.

(At least two of us here did that...)

[Big-Windy]

I guess you're right JT2. Maybe I am losing sight of THAT picture. Looking a bit wider though, no matter how you rationalise the situation it still boils down to the fact that we're all undervalued. The real problem; we're hamstrung by the fact that there are so many police/HEMS operators competing against eachother and driving down prices. That makes the margins in this game very tight and low margins means poor wages. Why should DE units offer much if they think there's still a reasonable chance they'll be able to poach someone from one of the companies? A little of me wants to see all in-shore operators struggle to recruit. That's the only way we'll see an improvement in our lot.

[jayteeto]

True, I do know that a number of units are investigating the possibilities of direct employ because of price rises. That may affect pay rates.... Who knows??
I agree with you about being undervalued, but as long as there are mugs like me who will accept low wages, pay will not change.

[jayteeto]

Is that as a timeshare salesman or drug dealer? ;)

[ShyTorque]

"Boat" being the clue, I suspect.... :D

[Big-Windy]

Get back to the UK and whinge along with the rest of us Flungdung!
:p
Ah! How I revel in those stupefyingly long tailbacks stretching into the distance under dark, oppressive skies, the succulent ecstasy of plastic supermarket sandwiches and pesticidal coke just for a modest nothing of a wage. All whilst watching my already inadequate pension being further eroded by good old Gordon!
:rolleyes:

[MightyGem]

Perhaps for a DE unit, they should be offering something better?

They are:
Annual increments / yr for first 2 yrs.
Pension (final salary)
Overtime based on a 37hr week.
Very generous LOL
31 days off /annum

PremiAir started someone on less than £39000 last month

[BRASSEMUP]

The thing is.......you leave the military(and these are the pilots flying for the police in the uk) in need of job because you normally have a morgage and all the trappings of life to pay for and if there is a job going for the police/hems then unless you have 2 heads you have a good chance of employment. But if guys keep excepting these low wages(and 45k isn't that low) the companies will keep offering them. But there is a bit of a trend of people looking else where after the bigger pay packets now the market is so good.
Are police pilots a member of BALPA?:cool:

[ShyTorque]

Best way out of the police / AA low pay trap is to get an IR.

[BRASSEMUP]

F'dung,

I agree with what your saying. But why should you have to take your well earned pension into account?
I know its a great job a few of my friends do it.............. But they weren't so lucky in finding a vacancy near to their homes.

[Letsby Avenue]

Don't get hung up on the 45K. A lot of DE police pilots earn considerably more than that around the UK and it will undoubtedly be reviewed soon in light of recent market forces but you can't advertise that can you. The main attraction for an ex mil pilot is job security, gold plated pension and stability.

[Big-Windy]

Thanks for bringing the extra information to our attention MightyGem.

I don't want to get into petty arguments over the semantics of the deal but you are pushing the extras as if they were something to get really excited about. The only thing worthy of note in that package is the final salary pension which is a scarce commodity these days. I would be interested to know the specifics of that.

:8

[Hoveronly]

Great thread and very timely as Im looking to shortly return from a foreign land and get back into the onshore scene in UK. Left PAS some years ago when they offered their floaters less of a pay rise than the others. The job seems to now have longer shifts with only a few more £ for the priveledge. It is up to the rank and file pilot to show his disquiet at the pay structure as those who provide bums on seats have no incentive to increase the level of salary. Indeed that is probably where the companies profit comes from!

No rotary IR, so whats the alternative?

[Dr. Bunsen Honeydew]

A typical pension of the type offered usually would equate to 18-20% extra salary put into your own pension fund (with the associated ups and downs of the open markets), and an associated lump sum on retirement with payouts and cover for illness and death in service. I guess that an offer of c.£53,000 with cast iron benefits might sound more tempting!

[Big-Windy]

If what you're saying is accurate Dr Honeydew then now we're starting to get somewhere? So the adjusted estimate equates to about £53K?

:hmm:

I suppose we're just starting to get into commercial turboprop captain territory which, some would argue, would be a reasonable comparator. Therin lies the problem. What should we compare ourselves to? Come on folks! Let's cut to the chase. How much would we like to see offered? (I'm talking right across the in-shore market here)

:E

[Thomas coupling]

Thank you for the more constructive observations. I am constrained within the public sector pay restraints to be able to convince my employers of 'our' true worth. At the end of the day, a pilots package rests uncomfortably amongst those around him/her in the police world and takes time to be accepted.
I can assure you, that this 'package' for an entry level police line pilot, will escalate past the 50K mark very very quickly. That, in my opinion, is satisfactory remuneration for the post.

The market (highlighted by the official response to this and other adverts) is definitely changing. [Quality] pilots are most definitely in short supply, almost all the service providers are experiencing difficulties in this area and as mentioned earlier, the military pool has all but dried up as their lords and masters 'fixed' that problem some years ago.
I believe we are at the beginning of a market correction for better pay which has been a long time overdue. But what do you expect with an industry so small and so disjointed - no union to speak of. Market forces have finally taken charge of us rather than the other way round.
The new framework agreement has all but put paid to future contract pilotage [£100,000 for a contract pilot???]. Perhaps our time has come?

Helicpter pilots will never become rich - but is that the aim of the game?

[Hingmay]

I dont do it for the money.... it the love for the job.... :eek:

[Whirlygig]

At the end of the day, a pilot's package rests uncomfortably ...

I thought it was only Jet Ranger pilots who suffered from that :E

Cheers

Whirls

[NLJ]

The vacancy for a Line Pilot at Lancashire Constabulary Air Support Unit has finally appeared in Flight International. The minimum requirements for this post are as follows:

UK ATPL/H or JAA CPL/H

2000 Hrs Helicopters
1500 Hrs PIC Overland
To include a significant proportion of Low Flying and 500 Hrs Twin Turbine.
Previous PAOC experience and an 135 rating would be desirable.

Applicants must be willing to relocate to within 45 mins of our base here at BAE Systems Warton Aerodrome. Closing date for applications is 1st May 2007.

I have been authorised by our UEO to mention that if you fall just outside the minimum requirements, then you should still consider putting in an application.

The contact address is:

Lancashire Constabulary Human Resources
H Division Operations
PO Box 77
Hutton
Preston PR4 5SB

[Bravo73]

Out of interest, NLJ, have you just lost one or has a new position been made available?

Please feel free to answer via PM if you would prefer.


Thanks,

B73

[NLJ]

Our Chief Pilot is going onto bigger and better things which has created the vacancy. For those that don't know, we have 4 Pilots here at Lancs working a 12 hour shift, 2 Days 2 Nights 4 Days Off Rota.

[Bravo73]

Thanks.

wibble wwibble wibble

[Kernowkid]

The simple solution is that the pilots have to get organised under one banner like BALPA to have any chance of changing their terms and conditions of employment. Premiair are a classic example whereby they divide and rule. There is not standard scale of pay, they make it up as they go along. Nobody actually knows what any one else is getting because it is not published and there are no inducements for loyalty/productivity.
What will circa £40,000 get you at a von Essen hotel? Receptionist, Doorman.

Get organised and represented, go on strike and see if they sit up and take note. Hit them in the pocket it is the only way they learn.

[TeeS]

Hi Kernow, consider yourself promoted; you are now UEO of a police unit and are totally responsible for the budget! What terms and conditions will you offer a non-instrument rated pilot and what is the starting salary?

Cheers

TeeS

[Whirlygig]

...and then you have to argue your budget with an accountant! I'm sure TC will agree that arguing with an accountant is a pretty fruitless task! :} :p

Cheers

Whirls

[soggyboxers]

Well, I've got all the qualifications, but then I realised that unless this petition to bin the ban on single pilot operations over the age of 60 succeeds, I'm too old :{ . Maybe that's why I never got a reply :\ .

A number of people have made mention of ex-military pilots being able to afford to fly on police ops because they have a nice pension to supplement the salary, but there are many, like myself, who having resigned early had to wait until age 60 for our preserved pensions.

The money does seem quite low, but considering there's no requirement for an IR, the hours requirements are not particularly high and there are good additional perks, plus the area is relatively cheap to live in, it seems fair and reasonable for the position offered. I'm sure there will be lots of well-qualified applicants. Good luck to the successful one, as it's a lovely part of the country to be flying in.

[Big-Windy]

I'm sorry Soggyboxers.
Forgive me but that response is a little unhelpful. It misses the point.
Progress needs to be made in the Police/HEMS market and I don't believe that the first step is a vague acceptance from some quarters that the present offers are sort of, justabout OK, even quite reasonable!
That only serves to reassure those putting the packages together that they are offering the right price, that they've got it about right. We should be sending messages that pointedly indicate the contrary; that they've got it very wrong!

[Whirlygig]

Market forces Big-Windy, market forces. Whether 'tis right or wrong, I'm afraid that is what is at work here.

Putting out "messages" to employers can only be done when the employer finds that they can't recruit the right person (or sufficiently qualified) for the salary offered. If they can, then the remuneration must, ipso facto, be about right.

Had I the qualifications, I would do the job for the package offered. If I would be selling out for others, then sorry; life's tough sometimes. As was pointed out, it's a nice area (and not expensive) to live so surely there are other aspects than just salary that count towards whether a job role is acceptable or not. Quality of life, the team with whom you work and the environment etc etc.

Everyone has their price; obviously I am cheaper than some :E :ok: :D

Cheers

Whirls

[soggyboxers]

Big Windy,

I don't see what point I've missed. The topic was that a police ASU is seeking to recruit a line pilot. A number of people seem to have used that to change it to a general debate on whether police/HEMS pilots are adequately remunerated. At the end of the day, those having decided what to offer for this particular post will know whether they have got their figures right if enough suitably qualified pilots apply. A few posts on this website are not going to change their minds if they have more than enough qualified people apply.

The company I work for used to have a problem getting enough people until they changed their salary structure and work routine. Now they claim to have more than enough people, so I guess that the package they put together was right, whether I think it was enough or not.

At the end of the day TC made a post giving a number of people advance notification that there was a new job coming up and if he got a lot of applicants, one of them is going to be happy with his (or her) lot.

[Kernowkid]

Hi TeeS

You make a perfectly valid point regarding the starting salary and other benefits. Compared to some the vacancy under discussion is good a package when viewed in the round. Unfortunately, some employers offer a basic wage with no benefits other than legal minimums and no ladder to climb in terms of pay. It is the basic wage for the rest of your days plus any annual rise that they decide to give you and absolutely no other benefit. Direct employment brings many things not least security. The market is bouyant at the moment and people will move around, and for the companys that are percieved to be poor employers they will suffer a shortage of applicants. Look at the constant adverts from one and you can figure out who that might be. If as rumoured one individual started on 39k recently then that proves my point about divide and rule. The 'starting salary' for them is very, very low 40s. It is not all about money, if it were then one could always get a job in a rubber suit but would that give any job satisfaction. Each to their own.

Regards

Kernowkid:)

[SilsoeSid]

IMHO, I think that these jobs will be available again in the not too distant future.

Clearly, using the military pension to 'top up' the wage, which is obviously what is going on here, nurtures a feeling of resentment towards the penny pinching tactic used by certain employers.

I for one am surprised that it seems to have leaked over to DE units and wonder at what stage the target employees 'extra income' becomes a factor.
Target employee = direct entry ex-mil ; Extra income = pension.

With these recent vacancies, I wonder how many applicants will purely see them as a 'first rung on the ladder' or foot in the door and will be off for pastures greener not too long after.

'Bonding' may appear to be a tool for the employer to utilise to prevent this, however as seen in recent events, this will not work in the present climate.

Yes, you can pay monkeys peanuts for flying, but will they be happy and loyal?

http://www.spacetoday.org/images/Astronauts/SpaceDogs/RhesusMonkeySpacesuitNASA.jpg

[Brilliant Stuff]

I would have thought if you offer a good to excellent package you save more money in the long run by not having to recruit every 5 minutes.

[paco]

Yes, brilliant, you're quite right, but in these days of compartmentalised accountancy, where one doesn't care about the other guy's budget as long as his is OK, there's no one with the big picture to use common sense like that. It comes under the heading of proactive management, of which there is very little in the helicopter industry. Or anywhere else for that matter.

Phil

[anonythemouse]

When I entered the Police/HEMS world it appeared very obvious how the salary offer was calculated. Current military wage (pa) minus military pension (pa) = Salary Offer! (almost to the £). Yes I accepted the contract but, with 24 years of employment coming to an end and a further 14 years of mortgage still needing payment there was a sense of relief to have secured another job. It has been said that the salaries and renumerations are good considering an IR is not required for Police Ops. Is this based on the fact that they cost a fortune to obtain if they are not done as a short course on leaving the forces? I believe that there will be a shortage of pilots for these roles in years to come as ex military types use the fist full of £'s given by the military to obtain their IR's and disappear to sit as co pilots off-shore waiting for a chance to get a Captain's position and the extra wealth that comes with it. And before anyone shoots me down as having a go at these guy's I am not!

[ShyTorque]

A Police job in presents an easy transition from the armed forces into civilian flying for many suitably qualified helicopter pilots, especially where no IR is required. Simple as that. Some move on, some stay put. (I moved on, due to the company I worked for losing the contract to a cheaper bidder).

[Thomas coupling]

SilsoeSid, I'd like to correct your observation if I may. I have most certainly NOT pitched that salary at a level commesurate with an ex-mil pilot's pension benefits. That has never been on my agenda. In parallel, it is far too sensitive an issue for the police to ever get involved with such a discriminatory subject either.
The salary 'package' has been massaged and developed over many years as part of an education process with my employers. They are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves how and where to pitch the remuneration. As long as there is someone out there with the qualifications who is prepared to work for 'adequate' money then they will continue to place the ad fairly and squarely at the lower end of their financial catchment area.
It takes people like us to invite them to appreciate that we are highly skilled technicians doing a specialised job and as a consequence we should be rewarded appropriately.
The Police industry is FAR too small to gang up on its employers - and why should it? At the end of the day they are spending public money and want best value. Who decides that we deserve well above average pay packets??

The most effective way forward will be what is happening now - the market is drying up, not enough suitably qualified pilots available and the suppliers of contract pilots are having to charge exorbitent prices for their 2007/8 marketplace. Military pilots are almost non exisitent.

The market lags and leads overall, I think we are currently lagging, slightly...but things are about to change dramatically I think.

BALPA - don't make me laugh! I don't wear a BA badge on my lapel.

[wallsend]

TC, you said

"BALPA - don't make me laugh! I don't wear a BA badge on my lapel."

CHC Scotia badge-wearers seem to have done quite well with BALPA....:O

[Bertie Thruster]

"BALPA - don't make me laugh! I don't wear a BA badge on my lapel."

.............but quite happy to claim the UK commercial pilots tax allowance, negotiated by BALPA.................

[Big-Windy]

Some good stuff coming out here. We're going round in circles somewhat but I think TC rounded things nicely with his last post.


There are some revealing comments in that post. As TC suggests, maybe there should be some market adjustments in the coming months/years. It certainly needs to happen! I'll be watching with interest.

[wallsend]

Windy,
I think TC's comments re BALPA needed addressing. I think "market adjustments" don't just happen - they are pushed. Ask virtually any pilot who worked for PAS before 2002 (when PAS and BALPA signed a recognition agreedment) about waiting for these things to just happen. Some VERY poorly paid pilots had significant improvements at the time, and a transparent pay structure was agreed. (a suspiciously similar structure has subsequently been adopted by a company also based at Staverton)


However, more work needs to be done in the light of recent rotary pay deals.


If all police/hems providers had negotiating agreements with their pilots through BALPA, then the state of the pilot market could be addressed with the police forces and home office by a united front of operators. This would be the best chance of reaching better terms for pilots and ensuring the retention of experienced hands.

[jayteeto]

I spoke to an experienced pilot this week, who has applied for one of these posts. He will take a pay cut if he gets it. He wants the lifestyle available and money is not a player. I would not strike despite my low wages compared to some of you out there. I take offence at being blamed for accepting my package and spoiling it for everyone else. I repeat, I would love more money, but quality of life is far far more important.

[Big-Windy]

Wallsend, you're quite right, BALPA has certainly improved T&Cs within PAS. The system is completely transparent and holds no surprises. Negotiations are ongoing but all opportunities are maximised I understand.


The additional benefits of BALPA membership are well known, a legal team with comprehensive experience in 'all matters aviation' is just one example. From a company perspective, the only downside is the fact that it takes 3 CC reps out of the roster for several days every year and that's not cheap!

[SilsoeSid]

Is there a hitch in HQ somewhere, or are the application forms not being released too early?
A friend of mine applied just about 2 weeks ago for the forms, 7 working days to go to application closing date!

Perhaps it was the photo that put HR off.....or TC recognises him!
:suspect:


beth ewyllysia bod ewyllysia bod

[Brilliant Stuff]

"but quite happy to claim the UK commercial pilots tax allowance, negotiated by BALPA..."

Do I get these automatically or do I have to ask for them?

Police flying it appears to me is for people who love the actual flying because the helicopter is being used for what it was designed for and is not being restricted by overbearing rules.
The people I know who lfy for the Police are doing it for the quality of the job and private life. We all would love more Money but we all left the Northsea with it's big salaries because to us the money alone did not cut it.

From what my little experience tells me it's down to the contracts and companies wanting to bag certain contracts even if it means there want be much in it but for the prestige.

But I believe in time the money will improve and extra perks will be included.

You could always work for the MET with £65k and shiny EC145, if you did not mind the loss of quality of life.

[Bertie Thruster]

...something free from the tax man automatically.....never heard of that before!

Best way to sort it out is to ask BALPA HQ for the BALPA tax hand book. Explains it all and much more.

[Thomas coupling]

I'll chase the applications up - pronto. if there are ANY other glitches contact me directly and I will resolve it this end faster than HR will.


Bertie, a little bird tells me (confidentially), that some pilots are receiving this but they are in the serious minority. Most of us (and I include myself) know little or nothing about this tax relief.
Would you care to enlighten us ALL about this 'perk' so that like yourself, other pilots might enjoy the benefits that we are entitled to.

[Bertie Thruster]

TC; the tone of your last post is akin to that of a victorian governess! I bet you are a great boss to work under!

Regarding the commercial pilot tax allowance, I have already suggested to Brilliant Stuff how to get further information on this.

BALPA worked long and hard to get this tax break for ALL uk commercial pilots.

TC, you have already expressed your distain of BALPA, so why should I hold your hand and lead you to the answers?

Most people posting here are quite capable of using Google to find the answer.

(Perhaps a "professional" who ignorantly knocks a professional association and appears not to know the difference between a JAA CPL and an JAA ATPL also can't work a search engine.:rolleyes: )

[Max_Chat]

Phone your local tax office informing them of your professional pilot status and they will apply the tax code change to reflect the £950 allowance for 07/08.
If you do self assessment then put 850 in box 1.33 and 100 in box 1.35 in your tax return to claim the allowance for 06/07.

[Thomas coupling]

Max Chat - you're very kind, Thanks. I'm sure many will appreciate that gem of information.

Bertie - if you want to get something off your chest old boy - PM me. This is not the venue for one of your spats. Public derogatory remarks do not a professional pilot, make.

[Thomas coupling]

Can all those who have applied for the post, but have NOT received their application packs, please e-mail me ASAP so I can chase them up for you.
Thanks

[Brilliant Stuff]

Thank you everyone I will investigate this. Ta.

Good luck with the Job applications everyone.

[Big-Windy]

Yep, good luck to those applying.
:ok:
I had a fun time there when I did a brief stint in the not so distant past. It's a great unit with a lot going for it.
:)

[Bertie Thruster]

Re.Max Chat's information: the tax allowance is based on commercial standing not just professional status. Some Police pilots, even though working for commercial companies, have needed BALPA intervention to get their allowance (because the tax man said police flying was public service and not commercial flying)
However one or two directly employed police pilots have recently managed to get the allowance, so I guess its up to the interpretation of individual tax offices.
To save TC a simple google search;
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM50050.htm

[Whirlygig]

Thank you Bertie for the link; it not just saves Thomas time but others. I tried to find this on the internet this afternoon and failed. The trick with google searches is often to use the right keywords; I suspect some (including myself) used the wrong ones.

Cheers

Whirls

[Bertie Thruster]

Trouble is I now have to commit BALPA Hara-Kiri for revealing the link!

But I'm not sure what was difficult about the right words for the Google search.............

"BALPA commercial pilot expenses allowance"............

..............which with only one further jump takes you straight to the relevant page in the Taxmans expense manual.

Note: the key word in the Google search is BALPA.

[Whirlygig]

Bertie, my gratitude was genuine. :ouch:

I did not use the word BALPA and I used "tax allowance" instead of "expense allowance". Now, you are quite correct in that none of the words is difficult but picking exactly the right ones can sometimes require knowledge of the exact words or phrases to be used. Thank you for pointing that out to us all! :}

Cheers

Whirls

[Head Turner]

Theres a corporate job going in Cumbria, ideal for ex AAC.

[Big-Windy]

Hey Head Turner, that wouldn't be for certain trucking company would it?

[Head Turner]

Big Windy - No but you're in the right neck of the woods

[Bertie Thruster]

Point taken Whirlygig. Sorry.

Alcohol involved. ......returning to my corner...........

[Brilliant Stuff]

How brilliant is this industry where we all give eachother a leg up.

Thanks Bertie.

[whinetyler]

erm, anyway, back on message! What does the panel think a Police or EMS pilot should earn for a years work?

[Droopy]

Head turner - the current pilot has an IR and the job involves cross europe ops - surely an IR would be a prerequisite or are they offering one?

[Whirlygig]

Thank you Bertie. :ok:

Now I just have to get a particular image out of my head. :E

Cheers

Whirls

[SilsoeSid]

My friend was swatting up on his mountain flying notes, as he still wasn't sure of the 'substantial experience requirement', and thought this vid might be of interest to the competition!
:E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Em9-Fk3rxc

The guy in the right hand seat is TC, right? ;)

[Bertie Thruster]

What does the panel think a Police or EMS pilot should earn for a years work?

This goverment website suggests between £45k to £60k per year:

www.learndirect-advice.co.uk/helpwithyourcareer/jobprofiles/profiles/profile688/

[SilsoeSid]

Nice find Bertie, I particularly liked;

Helicopter pilots may be paid allowances for overnight stays or visits to inhospitable areas.

So night duties at certain places would get you top wack then???


Under the 'Annual Income' it does say between doesn't it?

[Basher577]

inhospitable areas!
I bet you could get Travel Lodges to fall within that discription.

[wallsend]

What about Woodhouse Moor HLS?

[Bertie Thruster]

What does the panel think a Police or EMS pilot should earn for a years work?


£54k, basic.

[Whirlygig]

Surely salary would depend on which area of the country said police/HEMS pilot works? £54k in London is not that high a salary at all irrespective of profession. Up here in Noorrrfolk, it would be considered very comfortable indeed!

Cheers

Whirls

[ShyTorque]

Whirls, that figure doesn't include London weighting. The Met boys are on a bit more :)

[Whirlygig]

OK. Replace "London" with "Oxford"! It's still the same point in that uniform salaries across the country do not equate to a uniform standard of living. But that's public sector pay policies for you!

Cheers

Whirls

[Max_Chat]

I phoned my local tax office and had no problems with getting the allowance. How unusual for a government department to give differing answers to the same question asked more than once.

[Bertie Thruster]

Well done for getting your allowance Max Chat, especially if you are a police pilot.

BALPA fought a long battle to ensure all the Police and Hems guys got the same FREA (fixed rate expenses allowance) that BALPA had negotiated for commercial pilots.

This is what the Taxman finally said:

............. It is clear that these helicopter pilots are a very different breed from the airline pilots who were the focus of our negotiations over the FREA. However, I am now satisfied that they are likely to incur allowable expenses of a comparable amount and that (contrary to my initial impression) they are indeed “commercial” pilots. I therefore confirm that HMRC will apply the agreed FRE to pilots employed by PAS/HEMS, BAS and any similar operators....................


..... and if TC is happy to claim his allowance, I wonder if he will retract his snide comment about BA lapel badges?...... :hmm:

[Head Turner]

The job vacancy in Cumbria is still open for someone with the right background and qualifications. And as I said before, it would suit an AAC, and IR is not required. There are other duties that the person would be required to take up at times when not flying. There is quite a bit of trans-europe positioning, low flying, mountain flying, hot and high, confined areas and looking after the customers, unusual hours and long days. But it's interesting.

[paco]

Hot and high in Cumbria? :)

Phil

[Whirlygig]

Yeah, you might have to fly over Sellafield :} :eek:

Cheers

Whirls

[paco]

Ah, central heating for kids....

Phil

[Hoveronly]

Just read that house prices have gone up 3 fold in the last 10 years. When I left Police work in '96 I was on 32K. now others are being offered 39k by a well known company. 54k sounds much more like a liveable figure which takes into consideration the risks and conditions of the job.

[902Jon]

Bertie check your pm's please

[SilsoeSid]

TC,

Remember...don't employ anyone who is unlucky!

Take all the applications, shuffle them about a bit, and then shred and bin half of them.

SS
Thanks to David Brent!

[What Limits]

TC,

No agenda, but would be interested in how many have applied and how many you are considering.

WL

[Thomas coupling]

What Limits. Application closing date was yesterday. We appear to have 6 responses!! Not had time to sift yet. Compared to 4 yrs ago when there were 16 and 2 yrs previous to that 24. Spoken to numerous other operators and there is a stark shortage of suitable pilots, it seems. Time for a market correction perhaps???? Another operator has had even less applications than this.
Oooh err.

[SilsoeSid]

I'm surprised at the low numbers TC.

As my earlier post, perhaps something is amiss, as I know of one person who sent in the CV etc right at the start and despite now being past the closing date, still no application forms!

Were these application forms actually applicable for this post, or will the interview invitations be going out based on CV, photo, letter information?

SS

'beth ewyllysia bod, ewyllysia bod'.

[ShyTorque]

I would apply myself, but not at the pay rates. Market forces prevail and one eventually gets what one pays for.

That sounds arrogant, it's really not meant to be:O . IMHO, Police pilots in UK have been undervalued for years, especially taking into account the qualifications / experience required.

[Helinut]

I was also interested but have taken a stand on the salary issue too, and not applied. I have also decided not to apply for one or two other police jobs on the same basis. Just one person's view but perhaps repeated?

Because it is of interest to me, I have been enquiring about the going rate. It seems to vary quite a lot. I was also told that one of the major contracting organisations was paying £39K for police line pilots. Another smaller one is paying £45K, while yet another (probably soon to be an ex police contractor) is paying various rates covering that range and more.

[Thomas coupling]

Silsoe Sid: If you know of anyone who has applied for an application pack but not received one, get them to e-mail me on here ASAP and I will guarantee to review their CV. As you said the applications are few in number and if someone out there is qualified and has missed out, I'd love to know about it please?

Many thanks,

TC.

Helinut, you should invest while the market is low...it can only go one way;)

[SilsoeSid]

Having re-re-read the thread, I am very surprised and in wonder that with TC earlier saying ;

I can assure you, that this 'package' for an entry level police line pilot, will escalate past the 50K mark very very quickly. That, in my opinion, is satisfactory remuneration for the post.


Why were there only 6 applicants?

[Thomas coupling]

Let me put it in perspective Silsoe:
We have had 6 applicants. A neighbouring police unit has had less success. The Welshpool Air Ambulance is finding difficulty supplying anyone to work there full time and so too is the Caernarfon Air Ambulance.
A police force down south can't find pilots and even one of the biggest service providers who advertised at the same time as us, is finding difficulty filling their vacancies.
I can only assume that the market has reached rock bottom and most pilots have been scooped up. It can only auger well for salaries methinks?
I remember a thread about 3 yrs ago discussing our (pro pilots) position on the salary ladder. Where exactly do we come in comparison to say doctors/accountants/tanker drivers/train drivers etc?

And why have my number of posts stopped going up?

[SilsoeSid]

Police Force down South?

How south?


As for the post numbers, the totals are updated on all your posts as you post new posts, so your previous post will have the same number of posts as your next post.

[Whirlygig]

I can't speak for doctors etc but a Chartered Accountant in North Wales would be typically earning between 35k and 70k. This is a qualification that requires a degree and at least 3 years subsequent training to an academic level higher than ATPL!

Cheers

Whirls

PS Thomas, your post count looks fine unless you post on Jet Blast and then they do not count!

[Thomas coupling]

During my deliberations whilst defining the direct pilot contract, the police asked me to quantify the ATPL qualification. I was officially told by Bristol University (eventually) that an ATPL was equivalent to a two yr credit for a science degree. So that would fit in nicely with whirly's statement, no?

[airborne_artist]

TC - I guess the number of applications received is a) a reflection of the terms offered for this post compared to the market and b) shows that the number of RW pilots leaving the military is now shrinking fast.

[SilsoeSid]

Unfortunately the OU doesn't recognise this apparent equivalency!
Here is a reply from an e-mail enquiry I sent them.
As I understand it, the CAA does not meet the higher education quality assurance standards necessary for us to assess
their qualifications for credit toward our degree programmes. As we are monitored by the Quality Assurance Agency
ourselves, we need to show absolute evidence that any professional courses we award credit for meet their criteria, and
in this case we are unable to do this.
I trust I have answered your question, however if you would like any further guidance please do not hesitate to contact
this office.
Yours sincerely,
Kila Miller
Credit Transfer Adviser

You can however get a few points from more recent Military flying courses;

http://www3.open.ac.uk/credit-transfer/professional/index.shtm

[paco]

I was officially told by Bristol University (eventually) that an ATPL was equivalent to a two yr credit for a science degre


Fixed Wing or Helicopter? The FW one has a higher standard. I get the OU's points about consistency, though.

Phil

[griffothefog]

I think all you guys are getting a little bit anal about this job application... This thread has been running for weeks and I suspect most of the comments have been made by under qualified people. If you have what they want, then apply and negotiate your terms privately or get off the bus:{

[Whirlygig]

One of the differences between Direct Employed police pilots and those working contracted operator is that direct employed come under rules similar to all public sector employees i.e. very, very little room for negotiation!

Cheers

Whirls

[soggyboxers]

I never even got an acknowledgement or a reply either. Just because I'm over 60 and legally prohibited from flying single-pilot on operations such as this, doesn't mean that I'm completely gaga and incapable :mad: . I manage to fly 6 days a week in an environment considerably more hostile than North Wales, but that of sourse counts for nothing any more. Oh well, another few red infuriators too many in the short (remaining) slide to the grave :\

[Thomas coupling]

Soggyboxers, I did respond to your PM, that's if you are the gentleman with 11000+ hrs and working in Nigeria??
You answered your own question. How could we possibly take you on (even though your quals are outstanding) if you can't fly for us legally?

Time to close this thread now I think eh?

[Whirlygig]

Time to close this thread now I think eh?

Just as I was girding my loins for a full-blowm macro-economic treatise on employment markets and supply and demand, you want to close the thread? Deprive a girl of her fun eh? :rolleyes: :}

Cheers

Whirls

[SASless]

Dear Whirls,

Is girding one's loins similar to putting on yer Kevlar Y-fronts?

[Heliport]

Closed at TC's request (as thread originator) as the deadline for applications is now passed.