Sea Harrier at Falklands Anniversary

[Double Zero]

As I've mentioned elswhere on Pprune, & it's been suggested worth a mention here;

The only flyable ex-RN Sea Harrier, XZ 439 ( a Dunsfold development jet which did the first European AMRAAM firings at Eglin ) now owned by ex-US Marines & AV-8B Test pilot Art Nalls, has been unofficially asked to come over for the Falklands 25th Anniversary display, but despite backing from THE TOP Harrier man, is having trouble with officialdom ( sponsorship too but not such a big-hitting snag).

Excuses go as far as lack of glide range over London for a single engine jet ! I happen to have photographed the 50th Anniversary Battle of Britain flypast by a formation of Merlin & Griffon Spitfires, among many others - how does the engine reliability there compare to a Pegasus, I ask you with a lot more knowledge than I ?!

Apparently the Red Arrows Hawks are acceptable, as they glide better ( I know the glide ratio of a Harrier is interesting ! ) but still seems a poor place to be gliding, with maybe Hyde Park or the Surpentine as options...

This seems shameful to me, how can one have a Falklands Anniversary without a Seajet ?

Maybe sour grapes from the Navy as they didn't have the brains to keep one for the Historic Flight, ( I know there's an FA2 in storage ) and the only example of a pretend FRS1 on show at Yeovilton is a bodged-up GR3...

[Truck2005]

Although I am an engineer and not a pilot I do seem to remember, many moons ago, a Harrier landing in a building site in the centre of London. Have the rules changed since then?

[RETDPI]

Absolutely spot on . That was Tom Leckey- Thompson in a GR1 in the late 60's by St.Pancras Station during the Trans Atlantic Air Races.

[airborne_artist]

Tom Leckey- Thompson in the late 60's

'elf 'n safety has come on a bit since the 60s, don't forget. The insurance claim for a crash in central London could be huge.

[RETDPI]

Reminds me of the old N.I. joke.
"Centre of Belfast Nuked- 70,000 pounds worth of damage done."
Good point though.

[Double Zero]

I'm not a pilot either, trained as a fitter before going tech' photographer for Experimental Instrumentation at Dunsfold - might sound grand but among the great people I worked with there was the odd complete git !

I think the Harrier take-off you're referring to was from St Pancras railway station at the beginning of the trans-atlantic racein 1969 or so.

By taking off & landing at the city centres ( London & New York ) the Harriers beat the Phantoms !

I have a copy of the photo at St Pancras if you should like it.

[Navaleye]

It was the old St Pancras goods yard where the British Library now stands.

[WPH]

I don't see that the comparative reliabilities of the engines is really a consideration, it's what you do if the engine packs up that's the important bit! IMHO the only way you'll see a Seajet in central London is a static display! The only flying Harrier I in the UK is the Qinetiq VAAC however, it doesn't look much like an FA2!
http://www.qinetiq.com/home/case_studies/defence/vaac_harrier.Par.0002.Image.wide.gif

Even if you won the single engine, glide like a brick, it'll be alright over London, argument. I don't see how you would find a pilot that could be authorised to fly one. The airframe and engine are now not supported by an engineering authority either. I can't see an answer to this one in the next 2.5 months! Given the exceptional amount of work still left to do on the Vulcan it'll be a miracle if that is ready either, but fingers crossed!

[mojocvh]

'wot about the one that "was" sitting in a hangar at Cottesmore 9 months ago??

[WPH]

None of the ones at Witt/Cott would be any good because of the engines. The best ones are the Culdrose Handling School jets because they have been kept in taxying condition.

[Truck2005]

Maybe someone should ask the guy who took a few of them away from here, St.Athan, a couple of years ago. He swore blind he was going to fly one:rolleyes: (He loaded a frame with a fairly low hours engine on the back of a 40 footer).

God help us:ooh:

[Double Zero]

In 14 years at Dunsfold, never knew a 'modern' Harrier to have an actual engine failure, except the rare fingers & thumbs swithchology snag & maybe pop surges in the hover ( recovered by Test Pilots without much effort or brown trousers )- I presume it wouldn't be nodding to Her Majesty, though that would be a nice idea & fitting salute.

Both Art Nalls & primarlily John Farley among others have glided them rather well - though starting off at 2,000 feet seems a bit challlenging !

As for Health & Safety, as Tim Brooke-Taylor once mentioned, " as long as you've got your elf !"

[JagRigger]

Why can't we just ask the Indian Navy ( nicely ) to lend us one?

or arrange a hospitality visit for their carrier ( ex - Hermes )

[Double Zero]

I was waiting for someone to mention them ! At least they're Mk 1's so decent looking & more representative - but I should think the 'Sun' etc would have a field day, rightly so for a change if the RN can't get it's act together...

[Spon Clayton]

There is also an unofficial Sea Harrier reunion planned for 4 May details here:

An annual Sea Harrier Bash is envisioned. This will comprise an informal RV at a suitable inner London boozer on the Friday before the Army-Navy Rugby game each year. In 2007 this means that all ex-Sea Harrier pilots, Air Engineers, Freddies and Sqn Staff Officers are invited to saunter along on Friday 4th May from 1800 onward for beer, dits and similar. For the chosen location and more details please PM me or email [email protected] ([email protected]) See you there.

Spon

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I was waiting for someone to mention them ! At least they're Mk 1's so decent looking & more representative - but I should think the 'Sun' etc would have a field day, rightly so for a change if the RN can't get it's act together...

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation if the Sun etc had paid more attention to the decommisioning decision. Some of us did try (with the Sea Jet thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98152) and other means) to get the media to pay attention, but they were more interested in Z list celebs.:ugh:

[Double Zero]

Yes, I did chip in on the SeaJet thread, as well as www.harrier.org.uk (http://www.harrier.org.uk)
on the messages board & a wonderful contribution on the history section - 'Harrier Testing' where if nothing else there are some of my shots ( Loch Ness standard compared to modern digital stuff ) of FRS1's & 51's.

I still maintain - if you'll pardon the pun - that the FA2's could have had another update / refit at what in military terms is peanuts.

I photographed the illustrations & cockpit rig of the hoped -for original standard of the FRS2 - as then - with single piece blown bulged canopy, large Lithium wing, wingtip missile rails, glass cockpit, JTIDS etc - if only !

At least a sensible compromise, for commonality with the RAF, would have been a few Harrier 2+'s - I was told by a Navy Test Pilot they could keep up with a Bear at altitude ( though slower lower down than a SHAR ).

Once photographed a trial fit on a 2+ with 6 Amraams all on BOL countermeasures rails; the 2+ is built like a tank too, to avoid the acoustic fatigue on the aft fuselage - though the radar wasn't as good as Blue Vixen & bringing back that stores weight to a carrier was dubious.

The Navy is playing a dangerous game assuming no-one will be impolite enough to attack, bearing in mind the woefully lacking SIX type 45's ( if they don't get flogged to Saudi ) and the inevitable delays to the JSF Dave.

As related in recent books by Falklands veteran pilots, the very second hostilities are over it's back on with the cummerbunds & the Navy becomes a motor-yacht club again...

Have also tried mentioning this anniversary issue on 'RumRation' though I don't think too much of it as a website, & no luck as yet.

Maybe the 'Sun' is worth a try after all - something I never thought I'd say !

[stickmonkeytamer]

Just wait until the new CinC come to power at the end of next week- things may change...:oh:

SMT

[Tim McLelland]

There was a Harrier 16-ship in the BofB 50 flypast so the rules must have been changed since then (or relaxed for that event).

But surely, there wouldn't be much point in having a Sea Harrier FA2 in a Falklands flypast would there?

Anyone heard of anything else scheduled for the flypast? I believe there will be a C130K and a C130J, and the Vulcan if it flies in time (and somebody pays for it!):)

[Impiger]

Surely the most important aircraft to have in the flypast would be the Victor K2 without which nothing else would have made it much past Lands End! Oh we haven't any of those flying either - perhaps we should just learn to live with the reality that aircraft go out of Service.:)

[Double Zero]

Greatest respect to the Victor, but I thought the carriers, Atlantic conveyor etc got the majority of Harriers there, the Victors helped the delivery from Ascencion, + the Nimrod & Vulcan flights etc ?

Agree the FA2 is not ideal - in a perfect world the Navy would have had the brains to keep an FRS1 in the Historic Flight - but it's toe-curlingly embarrassing to think of borrowing an Indian FRS 51 even though it'd be nice to see Hermes / Vikrant again and would make a good visit !

Also when training at Dunsfold the Indians proved very professional indeed, so presumably have a different training regime from their ' plant one in every acre' air force...

[The Helpful Stacker]

Surely the most important aircraft to have in the flypast would be the Victor K2 without....

I reckon Chinook 'Bravo November' had one of the most important yet unglamourous roles of all the aircraft operating in the South Atlantic back in 1982 and its still operational, although in a slightly modified form.

Perhaps the powers that be could authorise 'BN' to be repainted to represent its 1982 paint scheme and take pride of place in the flypast.:ok:

[360BakTrak]

Sods law dictates BN will be currently operating in sunnier climes................:ugh:

[NURSE]

have heard rumours that the Vulcan won't be there?

Yes would be nice to see BN in 80's paint scheme and would be even nicer if This historically important airframe could be retired gracefully to the Museum. But am well aware of the shortage of chinooks but if more are ordered I would sugest BN gets early retirement.

[Tim McLelland]

Not heard anything about the Vulcan being a no-show but then to be fair, I've never seen anyone offer any suggestion as to who would be paying for it, even if it's ready to fly in time.

Nice though the flypast idea is, you have to wonder if it's going to be a tad pointless when you consider how few appropriate aircraft are likely to be available to take part. Getting a Nimrod would be a struggle, so apart from the two Hercules that are already pencilled-in, that only really leaves the helicopters - and they're a little bit busy at present as we know too well.

Given that there's the traditional flypast for Her Maj on the previous day, I wonder why they didn't combine the two events and simply add the Hercules and a couple of helicopters to the flypast on the Saturday? Oh well, whatever happens, I'm sure the TV crews will manage to miss everything in spectacular fashion:rolleyes:

[BombayDuck]

Also when training at Dunsfold the Indians proved very professional indeed, so presumably have a different training regime from their ' plant one in every acre' air force...

Cmon, be a bit fair to us - the IAF flies ancient Fishbeds as part of its fighter fleet and even those accident rates are now down to western averages. The oldest Fishbeds are now retired, the last Flogger (MFs) are gone and so are the Foxbats. And we ran our first batch of Sukhois through their entire service life in just 8 years without a single incident.

But thank you for the compliments regarding our Naval pilots, though :) Wish we could've taken some F/A-2s after you folks did not want them, Blue Vixen + AMRAAM would be nice. Now our FRS.51 are getting (have got already, maybe) the Elta 2032 and the Derby missile, so they have a few years in them...

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Slightly OT:
"Centre of Belfast Nuked- 70,000 pounds worth of damage done."

ISTR it was 70,000 poinds worth of improvements...

hat, coat, etc

[Gainesy]

I doubt Joe Public would know the difference between an early Shar and today's Harriers anyway. And care less...

[mr ripley]

The person who makes the policy is ACAS.

Recently I believe the policy was that Merlin Spits, Hurricanes and Harriers were not approved for London flypasts.

It is probably the current policy too.

[Double Zero]

So are Griffon Spits Ok then ???!

As mentioned, I wouldn't be too optimistic about gliding a Red Arrows Hawk over London either...

Must be a recent rule, as I photographed a whole bunch of Spit's & Hurri's from the top of the Norwich Union building for the B of B Anniversary a few years ago.

Rather than get my head around posting pics here, you're welcome to a copy if interested, I'm at [email protected]

I must admit I hadn't realised there's so little participation for the Falklands effort, or the fact there's a display the day before - surely the only thing to make it worthwhile would be to have a SeaJet bow to Her Maj' ? ( I don't mean Madonna ).

I know Art Nalls with XZ439 has all the boxes ticked to re-qualify on Harrier 1 in the USA, but no doubt UK officialdom can still find a spanner to insert.

[mr ripley]

Griffon spits are apparently OK.

[Double Zero]

Hello BD,

please forgive my tongue-in-cheek remark about the IAF !

In fact a treasured possession was a letter complimenting some of my photo's from Captain Macadden ( Spelling ? ) , C/O of the FRS51 unit at Dunsfold.

Now I've tried to refer to it, it seems some thieving **** has had it away from my folio at a reunion !

We were all very impressed by the SHARP team, and BAe - bean-counters from other sites, not Dunsfold staff - soon found the Indians could not have the wool pulled over their eyes ! ( You may know what I'm referring to ).

I do know the flight test teams who were lucky enough to visit India reckoned the RN might learn a thing or two!

A shot of a White Tigers FRS 51 is on www.harrier.org.uk/history (http://www.harrier.org.uk/history) -scroll down to 'Harrier Testing'

[Art Field]

In defense of the Victors contribution to the Harrier element in Corporate my log book shows I flew three UK to West Africa sorties in early April 1982 refuelling at least two Harriers, maybe three, per sortie and including some SHARs. These aircraft were then supported as they continued on to Ascension. Some were embarked there and others caught the fleet up as it steamed south I believe.There may well have been other Harrier deployments.

It is also worth remembering that both the London and Plymouth Fly pasts were lead by a Victor. It was my crews privilege to lead the Plymouth event.

[Double Zero]

Art Field,

I should be able to find a shot of your aircraft over London then, if you're not knee-deep in them already !

Hats off to yourself & crew...

DZ

[WE Branch Fanatic]

However, what NAVAL aircraft will be present in this flypast? BTW have you seen this (http://www.rumration.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=4078.html)?

What about a (Sea Harrier) flypast over the sea? Spithead perhaps?

[Double Zero]

Better than nothing, but it's apparently down to Art with '439 or the Indians visiting in Vikrant - couldn't blame them for a wry grin...

Suppose the RN GR7 /9 aircraft could take part, though hardly the same even if 'Sun' readers didn't notice.

[vecvechookattack]

So, which aircraft which flew in the Falklands in 1982 is still flying today and will fly during the flypast?

Seaking Mk 4
Seaking HAS 5 (are 772 aircraft Mk5's ?)
VC 10 ?
C130 ( which variant flew in 1982)
Chinook


Thats about it. Or are there any more?

[Magic Mushroom]

Nimrod MR2.
Nimrod R1.
Gazelle.
Shame the PR9's just left service...oops some nice men in black Omegas are knocking on the door!:ouch:

Ooh and someone somewhere has an airworthy Wasp, I saw it last summer.

MM

[BEagle]

"So, which aircraft which flew in the Falklands in 1982 is still flying today and will fly during the flypast?"

Mirage
A4
Super Etendard
Pucara?

[Navaleye]

I thought their were some airworthy Shars at Shawbury. Surely the folks that flew them in can fly one out?

[GeeRam]

Mirage
A4
Super Etendard
Pucara?

You forgot about a Huey..;)

I've seen recently somewhere that the Argy liberated one that came back and became G-HUEY (?) for a while has been recently restored to it's Argy markings and is due to take part in the flypast.

[ExGrunt]

There must be an airworthy AH1 Scout somewhere
http://www.raf.mod.uk/falklands/images/scouts.jpg

[Double Zero]

I recall seeing a Sky TV programme about the WASP - 'Historic aircraft ' ?

Seem to remember it belonged to an American pilot, apologies I don't recall his name, and was in the UK ( maybe Middle Wallop ? ) in very nice RN colours - looked immaculate.

Doesn't make a Falklands display without a Sea Harrier or at least GR7 / 9 though !

[Magic Mushroom]

Exgrunt,
The Army Historic Flt have an airworthy Scout.
MM

[Razor61]

The Scout flies quite frequently from Wallop.
What about an Agusta A109 from Hereford :ooh: and that ex Argie 33 Sqn cab...
which the last time i photographed it, seriously needed a wash.
And...
The Lynx was also in the war...to add to the list previously mentioned.

[Jackonicko]

I'll get my coat BEFORE saying:



How about XW664 and a Canberra PR9......

[Barn Doors]

Worst-case is an Engine Mech Fail over London

You then have little to no time to manoeuvre into a safe area before all the controls go completely stiff (no Hyd pumps) and whatever you happen to be pointing at accepts the inevitable.

Does SHAR have a RAT?

[Navaleye]

I believe the FRS1 did but it was removed on the FA2. But I may be wrong...

Plus Argentine sour grapes.....

here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6501693.stm)

[GeeRam]

I recall seeing a Sky TV programme about the WASP - 'Historic aircraft ' ?

Seem to remember it belonged to an American pilot, apologies I don't recall his name, and was in the UK ( maybe Middle Wallop ? ) in very nice RN colours - looked immaculate.

The ex-FAA Wasp in the UK is owned/flown by Tim Manna who owns Kennet Aviation based at North Weald, and who also did the recent restoration back to airworthy status of the ex-Falklands UH-1 G-HUEY.

[Spon Clayton]

Deleted due factual mix up!! Sorry

[Boldface]

Jacko,

Do keep up with the banter old chap...:hmm:

[sharmine]

Spon

quote "Original GRs and FRS1 had a RAT. This was simply a wind driven electrical generator".

I would never have expected you to get this wrong Spon:= . The FRS1 RAT was purely Hydraulic and was removed during the Phase 1 update in the mid 80s to be replaced by a second No 2 hyd accumulator.:ok:

Emergency electrics came either from the APU driven 6KVA genny or the battery. The RAT had never been used in anger so good candidate for weight saving and space production.

The second main genny was added at the same time in anticipation of the extra power requirement coming with the FA2 upgrade.

Sorry, getting a bit off thread.

Sharmine

[Spon Clayton]

You are so right and I am so wrong-must put more water with it in future!

[Gainesy]

Shame the PR9's just left service

Wasn't involved though, they were Chilean mates.:suspect: :)

[adrian mole]

Vulcan Update - from Flypast May 2007 Edition (Yes I mean May!)
Within her Hangar at Bruntingthorpe, Leics, work to bring Vulcan XH558 back to life continues to quicken as the first flight date gets closer. Engineering Manager Andrew Edmonson gave Flypast a brief outline of the activity as of March 19.
Both the oxygen and fire bottle sdystems were going back in. Rewiring of the undercarriage bays was complete. New wiring for the avionics was being laid out, ready for installation.
Work on the cockpit was well in hand. The cockpit floor was planned to be re-installed in the week beginning March 26. Beyond that, new flight consoles currently being completed would be able to go in.
The corrosion problems found in the main undercarriage bays are being conquered rapidly, with a dozen staff deployed to this area. The engines are due to be fitted in mid-April.
Ground crew and aircrew training are in full swing. By the time these words are read, the aircrew will have staged their first sessions using XM655 at Wellesbourne Mountford, Warwickshire, for live procedures simulation and taxi training.
Due to a good response, the Vulcan Visitor Scheme has been extended by another month. Progress can be viewed on Sundays 10am to 4pm or prior arrangement. (Tel 0116 2479932, e-mail Denis Parker at [email protected]/www.tvoc.co.uk)

[FRAG7]

There is an airworthy Scout flying as part of the Army Historic Flight. At the moment the 'Buzz' is that the Scout and the Gazelle will not be able to take part in the flypast in London. (Single engine ). The fact that there both types there with the AAC and the Marines has nothing to do with it.( 656 Sqn AAC and 3 BAS). Still the Scout will be taking part in both Navy and Army 25th Falklands Anniversary days of rememberance. Perhaps the London Flypast is RAF only!!!!! :)

[The Helpful Stacker]

Perhaps the London Flypast is RAF only!!!!!

I believe flight safety is now administrated through a Tri-service organisation (DASC), of course don't let the facts get in the way of a good bit of crab-slagging eh?:rolleyes:

[Navaleye]

BBC Parliament is running a series of programmes on Sunday to mark the campaign and our victory over the evil enemy. Details here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/bbc_parliament/6496797.stm)

[WE Branch Fanatic]

News (http://www.navynews.co.uk/articles/2007/0703/0007032801.asp) of this year's air day at Yeovilton from Navy News.

One would have thought that it's as if officialdom is trying to pretend it never existed and never took part in Operation Corporate. In fact it sometimes seems like the RN is being written out of history.........

[sharmine]

Quote "Wasn't involved though, they were Chilean mates".


Pretty sure you will find they were RAF quietly operating from Chile which subsequently lead to Chile buying some. Not much publicity about it because of the sensitive nature of operating seeing all airplanes from a neighbour.

Sharmine

[Double Zero]

Didn't they quickly gain a bunch of Hunters too ? Nudge, nudge...

[Wobbler Fang]

Just a few of the types we could have if single engined gets a go ahead...

Wasp
Scout
Wessex (remember the Santa Fe affair? Rock the South Georgia casbah that did....)
Harrier (the two seater as already mentioned but rumours abound of a GR3/FRS1 in "bloody good nick" in the Dunsfold locale.....!!!! more details unavailable due to to much Adnams. Damn these weak moments)
Gazelle (quick, they're going fast! A RM one would be a nice change of pace.)

Multi-engined types.....
Lynx (first RN a/c almost went to war in wet paint....)
Chinook (BN WOULD be nice)
Canberra (yes it was us, and no, its not a PR9 still flying, but close is good enough I think as opposed to nothing)
Hercules
Nimrod
Sea King/Commando
VC10
Vulcan (please Doctor Bob, pretty please)

And for real controversy, how about a Phantom (yes, they came after I know!) or get the RA to lob a Rapier along the front of the flypast route.....

Joking aside a moment, the most complete history I have ever seen, and it is exhaustive, is to be found at http://www.raf.mod.uk/falklands/index.html
Whoever wrote it knows his stuff or was there, and some mad sod must have walked the entire route of the conflict, as there is a virtual tour of every battleground in the islands. Quite amazing and well written.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Are there any Wessex still flying in the UK?

[Double Zero]

D.F,

If there's an actual FRS1 going - not 51 by kind permission of the Indian Navy - it would be news to all of us 'in the Dunsfold locale' let alone the RN !

GR3 - well they have seemed to let drop, literally, on their unpressurised noselegs ( could have been otherwise supported ) at even places like Duxford - the only GR3 near Dunsfold is the biggest BS spouter on the planet who has just a cockpit front.

There is an FA2 at Dunsfold which is in pretty poor shape - engine out, upper eng bay frames dangling, nothing much done to keep in shape when I saw it last 2006.

Still might make a backdrop for Jeremy Clarkson now & again...

There's also an ex-ETPS Hunter which my mention that it should be under cover did not go down well, obviously on financial grounds...

Meanwhile I hear they've actually got one of the TSR2's engines re-installed at Duxford and are very near to demo 'burns', though obviously that's as far as it will go, in static.

DZ

[vecvechookattack]

Lynx (first RN a/c almost went to war in wet paint....)


Hardly, seeing as the Lynx went front line in 1977. So the paint had well and truly dried.

[BeefyBoy]

Strangely enough, whilst I was SNCO i/c Eng Instructions at HQSTC I was tasked to box up starting at STI/SI/PWI number 1, all paperwork relating to the Hunter. Boxes were going to certain South America country along with 6 Hunters - allegedly! ;)

(In reply to "Double Zero" ref to Chilean Hunters)

[vecvechookattack]

Joking aside a moment, the most complete history I have ever seen, and it is exhaustive, is to be found at http://www.raf.mod.uk/falklands/index.html (http://www.raf.mod.uk/falklands/index.html)
Whoever wrote it knows his stuff or was there, and some mad sod must have walked the entire route of the conflict, as there is a virtual tour of every battleground in the islands. Quite amazing and well written.

Tis indeed a good portrayal.....'cept he has ommitted 820 Sqdn entirely.....wonder why?

[Navaleye]

I really enjoyed Falklands Night on Beeb Parliament last night. Watching the old news broadcasts, question time and news nights, brought it all back. BZ BBC.

[lukeylad]

"Chinook (BN WOULD be nice)"

I belive she is still on ops.

[Nige321]

Anyone know what happened to Ian McDonald, the MOD press man...:8
N

[Wycombe]

...ah yes, was only 18 at the time, but a lot of my School mates had their Fathers heading into harms way, so all those broadcasts were watched avidly in the TV Rooms at School.

Who could forget his completely deadpan delivery, which always started something like "Elements of the British Task Force have today.......etc".

Having been through that experience and then been to the FI in more recent times, I'm finding all this "25 years on" stuff quite fascinating.

Read the Vulcan book earlier this year aswell. What a tribute to British inventiveness and determination that is.

[Longstick]

Right you lot......are you actually crackers or what?

Should the RN Historic Flight have a SHAR? Barking mad....as an ex, there's no chuffing way you'd get me up purely on very perishable polling skills, let alone rarely used engines and bearings.

We weren't allowed a fully serviceble jet or fully current Sqn boss to get to the end of an era do at Greenwich a year ago. How do you possibly think that a SHAR, mark irrelevant, would get there now?

If the Crabs are honcho-ing the memory, hopefully the Vulcan will be able to get airborne costing a disproportionate amount of money and miss the target due to 'poor cartography'. Whatever.

Back to the subject of SHARs, sure there are serviceable ones down at Culdrose and they would be more appropriate than a bloody Spit or something, but is it really crucial? At the moment the FAA is imploding due to quality Air Rank scheming, and while the memory of what everyone did is vital to our ethos and ultimately future, we have to ensure that the present is paid enough attention to carry on WAFU traditions......so embrace any GR7/9 attendance especially if the Quiche have anything to do with it. Sad but true, the deep red of their badges lives on!!!!!! Long live the chequered death!!!

[vecvechookattack]

Good point....Who cares if a SHAR is replaced by a GR7/9. Certainly the General Public won't know the difference. I understand that the Flypast will also involve Lynx Mk 3/8 both of which were not in service in 1982.

[sharmine]

Surely the idea should be to have aircraft (any aircraft) flying from units that were there, so 800 who were there and now fly GR7/9 do a fly past in a GR7/9 and if 847 flew wessex then but Lynx now then a Lynx should do fine. We will have a pretty hard job having a WWI 100 year fly past in 2018 if it could only be the same types that flew then.

A Sea King MK 6 also wasn't there but is after all a matured Mk 2 so it will do fine.

Anyone even thought about a static SHAR on the march past route. They did it for Earls Court?

Sharmine

[Double Zero]

To go back to post 1, there IS an operational FA2, ( in fact the lowest houred example too, XZ439 ) in USA at present, in the hands of an ex US Marines & Harrier 2 Test Pilot - he has a good groundcrew, has refreshed with a sim set up to handle like a Harrier 1, and is in regular contact with THE TOP Harrier pilot - you should know who I mean - and HE thinks it's a fair enough idea.

They're completely willing to bring the aircraft over, though a little funding would be appreciated.

I agree if it really can't be done due to officialdom - and that sounds pretty feeble if they're even hoping to get the Vulcan up - then a static SHAR en route seems fair.

Sure, let the Navy go past in a GR7 / 9, but I can imagine right now the cringe as the TV announcers say in hushed tones " and there go the Sea Harriers which made such a difference"...

[GeeRam]

To go back to post 1, there IS an operational FA2, ( in fact the lowest houred example too, XZ439 ) in USA at present, in the hands of an ex US Marines & Harrier 2 Test Pilot - he has a good groundcrew, has refreshed with a sim set up to handle like a Harrier 1, and is in regular contact with THE TOP Harrier pilot - you should know who I mean - and HE thinks it's a fair enough idea.

They're completely willing to bring the aircraft over, though a little funding would be appreciated.

As this is pressumably now on a civvie N-reg it would therefore come under the CAA..........and I can't see the CAA ever saying yes to that, not without BAe DA support....and I can't see that ever being forthcoming.....:}

[Moe Syzlak]

Couldn't agree more GeeRam, I suppose it boils down to the fact that the CAA have no emotional investment in seeing an FA2, FRS2 or FRS1 flying on their "slop chit"-so they can think with their heads and not their hearts on this one.

[sharmine]

zero 2

Art's SHAR is now N94422 so it comes under FAA rules and FAA registered aircraft do fly here all the time. I have been in regular contact with him and as yet the jet aint operational. It would also be a major undertaking with a great deal of risk (having just got it together and flying, if indeed he does) to take it apart ship it here rebuild it, fly it, take it apart, reship it back to the US and rebuild it all over again. Not to mention the pure cost and effort.

I am the first to want to see a SHAR in the air but reality needs to kick in here, it just aint going to happen.:{

Sharmine (the clues in the name)

[Double Zero]

Sharmine,
I take your point, in fact the last I heard Art had done several fast taxi runs, at the end of the last he " would have been happy to take her up but the paperwork wasn't finalised so was not the time to get cute".

Flight iminent, and he seems to think the anniversary display entirely feasible if someone will stump up for transport costs.

He plans to road transport her to each display in the U.S, I had my doubts about that too to start with ( my father was criew chief on 439 for most of it's career to date & other Harriers, 1 & 2 ) but having spoken to Art and his team leader Rich, am a lot more convinced.

It would seem sensible, if the a/c was to come over, to put her & the team at Yeovilton - if not too much an embarassment for the Navy - or Dunsfold, as obviously some ground & flight testing will be required when the wing goes back on.

I have dealt with the new owners of Dunsfold on several occasions, and while I cannot speak for them, would be surprised if they weren't receptive to the idea.

I am not sure if the vandals who were the last BAe lot at Dunsfold left the engine run pen intact, but it would be jolly handy !

Art is also happy to spend big money ( in my book ) whenever necessary even on detail items.

He is also determined she stays in British markings, so while a sponsor at some stage would be welcome, this will not be another Red Bull job.

The rudder is darker than the rest ( which is the lighter overall grey ) in memory of sister development a/c XZ438, which had an accident at Yeovilton with assymetric fuel on the ski-ramp during the high activity prior to task force departure. The pilot ejected safely.

Do I take it you have one in the garden shed too ?! That's not trying to be insulting, genuinely interested.
DZ

[WPH]

I'd heard that he was planning to road move it too, which had me baffled. To road move it, you will have to remove the wing and I believe, we normally also remove the engine. Under our rules, the aircraft would need loads of functional checks, a tie-down ground run including leak checks (not many places have these facilities) and prep for airtest. The aircraft would then undergo a performance hover air test to check the installed hover performance. The jet would then be ready for a practice display! I can't understand why this is better than flying it between venues. There is always a big risk of emerging work/ damage to riser ducts etc with an engine lift, plus hover performance may suffer. Sounds like a great deal of effort to me!:ugh:

It still doesn't solve the single engine aircraft over London problem though.:confused:

[Double Zero]

As I understand it, the engine will stay in, I imagine any fuselage / trestle loading issues were thought of long ago. But will ask.

That leaves quite a few pipes & 6 big bolts - we both mention ground & air testing will be required, so I imagine they will be selective about display sites, arriving in advance & an eye on facilities.

Would not be necessary in the UK, but with the distances in America...
plus if using drop tanks there's always the chance of a transfer snag, sod's law of a birdstrike or something, and going to oxygen altitudes meaning system & supplies.

Apparently there's plenty of interest from potential display organisers.

As far as I get the impression, but again something I'll ask, I think the a/c is to fly clean without pylons.

[sharmine]

Zero2

Do I take it you have one in the garden shed too ?!

No, but I did toy with the idea but missus wouldn't be best pleased. She thinks that putting them before her for tenty years was enough. If Art was to bring here hes got free crew member for sure. Spent many years running the SHAR display team, great days.:ok:

Many SHARs moved with engines installed. Also done many a down bird wing removal and fit with no test facilities, you can do sufficient test to get a one flight only RTB but then you do the full tests. The cost of consumable spares would soon make taking the wing off prohibitive all those O rings and metaseals would soon mount up.

SHAR should be flown with inboard Pylons. They were basic fit UNLIKE GR3/T4 which were role equip. I believe the SHAR had handling issues without so were never flown without.

Sharmine

[John Farley]

sharmine

On a point of detail the inboards were a permanent fit in order to meet wiring reliability requirements for special stores. Not an aerodynamic issue so far as I know.

[sharmine]

Cleared that up for me.:D

Sharmine

[WE Branch Fanatic]

According to Max Hastings (1st armchair brigade) the RN and RAF are not fighting services and weren't there........

The March 2007 edition of Two-Six mentions the 25th anniversary of Operation Corporate.

Here (http://www.rncom.mod.uk/templates/RefLibrary.cfm?id=3566&)

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Off topic for a moment, what about the discussion over the possible preservation of HMS Plymouth?

From the Beeb (http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/content/articles/2006/09/15/hms_plymouth_preservation_feature.shtml)

From the association website (http://www.hmsplymouth.co.uk/welcome.html):

HMS Plymouth participated in the 1982 Falklands Conflict. She sailed with Tide Class Tanker RFA Tidepool and County Class Destroyer HMS Antrim to South Georgia with Royal Marines and SAS aboard.

HMS Plymouth was then assigned to provide cover for the aircraft carriers and amphibious vessels and was the first vessel to enter San Carlos Water. On May 21st she came to the assistance of the bomb damaged Leander Class Frigate HMS Argonaut. HMS Plymouth was attacked herself on June 8th by five Mirage aircraft. Although she managed to destroy two and damage another two, HMS Plymouth was hit by four bombs and numerous shells. One shell hit her flight deck, detonating a depth charge and starting a fire. Another bomb entered her funnel and failed to explode, whilst the other two destroyed her anti-submarine mortar but also failed to explode. Five men were injured in the attack and HMS Plymouth was assisted in putting the fires out by HMS Avenger. She then underwent emergency repairs from the Stena Seaspread before rejoining the fleet. She then provided naval gunfire bombardment during the retaking of the island. After the surrender of Stanley, HMS Plymouth was the first ship to enter Stanley Harbour and it was in her wardroom that Lieutenant Commander Astiz signed the surrender document on March 20th.

HMS Plymouth left the Falklands with the County Class Destroyer HMS Glamorgan on June 21st, and returned to Rosyth on July 14th where she underwent full repairs. She had steamed 34,000 miles, fired over nine hundred 4.5 inch shells and destroyed five enemy aircraft.


Don't forget she carried a Wasp helicopter as well.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Art Nalls now has a website.

Nalls Aviation - Home of the Sea Harrier F/A2 (http://nallsaviation.com/)

Going back to the gliding issue:

While on a training mission attached to VMA-231, Art’s “Harrier” suffered a catastrophic engine failure near Richmond, Virginia. With little time to react, he essentially landed the Harrier engine-out at a civilian airfield. This was an extremely precise and risky landing, not normally attempted. The emergency procedures recommend an ejection. Art is the only person to have made such a landing and he was consequently awarded an Air Medal, with gold numeral one for the act.

From the Biography (http://www.nallsaviation.com/BIOGRAPHY.htm) page.

[Double Zero]

As I have discussed with Art, and he happily acknowledges, at least 3 dead stick landings in a Harrier had been carried out quite a bit earlier after major engine snags.

Hugh Merewether did it twice, at Tangmere & Thorney Island, and Barry Tomkinson did it with a 2-seater at Boscombe.

In all those cases the 'landing' was very hairy indeed, and the pilots extremely brave & lucky to survive.

Art was no less brave, but it would appear just by seconds had the chance to compose himself & land intact, which the first 3 aircraft certainly weren't !

[John Farley]

On a point of detail, Hugh’s two force landings were in P1127 aircraft not Harriers. Barrie Tonkinson’s was in a RAF standard Harrier T2.

The problems of force landing such aircraft (assuming you have the gliding range to get to the landing site) are judging the height and speed combination of the final approach and (importantly) getting round the flare. The P1127 was for its day a heavy high wing loading beast that did not want to fly conventionally at low speeds. However the P1127 was over 2000lb lighter than the subsequent RAF single seat Harrier and some 3500lb lighter than the RAF two seat Harrier. All of these aircraft had broadly similar wing areas. In this context Barrie’s achievement was (and remains) quite exceptional.

I go into this detail not to detract in any way from Hugh’s achievement but to emphasise what Barrie had going against him.

[Double Zero]

Thank you Mr.Farley, I was aware of the first 2 being P1127 but was slack in not mentioning it - also I've read various spellings of Barrie Tonkinson's name including variations from his contemporaries - his exploits were well before my time, and I imagine I finally have the definitive !

I must say the late Don Middleton's books 'Tests of Character' and 'Test Pilots - British Test Flying to 1984' are worth their weight in gold to armchair anoraks like me, with a lot of technical info' and hair-raising - no BS - accounts presented in a very readable way, and far better than anything else vaguely similar that I've seen.

On a completely separate matter, of no great import, I'd be grateful if you could PM me sometime please - Andy Lawson.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

The Herald of Plymouth has printed one of two supplements of the 25th anniversary.

Here it is (http://content.thisis.co.uk/plymouth07/homepage/Falklands25/Pages/homepage.html)

Click on reports to read articles.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

From Defence News: First Sea Lord Opens Falklands Exhibition (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/HistoryAndHonour/FirstSeaLordOpensFalklandsExhibition.htm)

On the Royal Navy website: Falklands Conflict 1982 (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.3956)

On the Air Power page (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.5880)........

Airpower was crucial to the recapture of the Falklands. This has to be seen not only in the context of a relatively powerful Argentine air force and naval aviation but also related to operations at sea and on land.

British airpower was exercised by all three British services. The RAF provided airlift to Ascension Island and beyond, conducted maritime reconnaissance, provided airborne fuel and was able to bomb the runway at Stanley. Further, Harrier GR3 aircraft, mainly for ground attack, were deployed both from sea and latterly on shore. Royal Marine and Army Air Corps helicopters gave direct support to the land forces.

The Royal Navy supplied most of the airpower off the Falklands in many different ways. Helicopters present in most naval units were very versatile providing antisubmarine defence, attack of surface targets, supporting special forces and other land operations, medical and rescue support, and providing the everyday but very necessary ability to move people and stores around the ships. Latterly many were based ashore. Sea Harrier VTOL fighter provided the main longer-range air defence as well as attacking ground targets. They played a very large part in the reduction of Argentine offensive airpower. The whole airpower effort was characterised by an ability to improvise; for example, both aircraft carriers had far more than their normal peacetime capacity.

[Navaleye]

I went to Dr Pleming's lecture today and he said they don't expect to meet the mid June first flight date. It won't be there. Shame.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Some of you may be interested in this article from Airscene

The Falklands Legacy (http://airsceneuk.org.uk/oldstuff/2007/431falklands/falklands.htm)

Oddly it doesn't mention the decision to develop Blue Vixen radar and upgrade the Sea Harrier to FA2 standard, then retire it prematurely (as discussed elsewhere)....

I understand that Illustrious will be in London for Falklands25 events in June. Why can't she have a Sea Harrier (possibly also a Harrier GR3, maybe a Sea King too) on deck? We have all three types in storage, and if they can't be flown.... I seem to remember seeing a picture from Bosnia where a Shar was lifted by a US CH53.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Oddly it doesn't mention the decision to develop Blue Vixen radar and upgrade the Sea Harrier to FA2 standard, then retire it prematurely (as discussed elsewhere)....


Perhaps they realised that the internet already has enough input on the subject from you.:rolleyes:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

What aboard a static SHAR display aboard Lusty? And a GR3 perhaps? No need to fly, just place them on deck.......

[Double Zero]

Sounds an excellent idea to me, WEBF - a Sea Harrier ( albeit an FA2 unless Yeovilton could lend their cobbled together FRS1 replica ) on the ski ramp, as in Falklands departure & arrival back shots, would be an essential part of what otherwise sounds increasingly like a bad joke...

[AR1]

Interesting that the powers that be, deem the sea jets one engine & glide ability a problem over London.

They didnt seem to have a problem shoving them out over freezing cold water, with no SAR cover.

[samuraimatt]

Well I guess there aren't populated areas over the cold seas where many people on the ground could be killed should the engine fail.

[Pontius Navigator]

The Harrier flew over London in 1969 in the London-New York air race.

4-11 May 1969 - A Harrier of No. 1 Sqn wins the Daily Mail London - New York transatlantic air race. The flight involves 4 air-to-air refuellings and took 6 hr 11 min 57 sec.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/t_images/harrierrace.jpg

[Navaleye]

Greetings Pontius,

and hello from the Braemar in Amsterdam. I suspect that the regs were bit different then and if it did it again, it would have land on the roof of the British Library which was built on the site. :ooh:

[FRAG7]

It is official. ACAS has decreed that there will be no Scout or Gazelle in the fly past. It's a single engine thing. But also the aircraft will not be able to land in London to be part of a static display. So there was only 12 Scouts and 12 Gazelles in the Falklands during the war in the 2 Sqn's. Still they can be seen at other venues around the country, Biggen Hill, Colchester etc.
I only hope that there is a decent representation of aircraft from 25 years ago or will it be all RAF, I wonder.
In case anyone was wondering, the CAA was happy for the aircraft to take part.
:\

[WE Branch Fanatic]

The MOD has said no to static Sea Harrier or GR3 displays on deck.:ugh:

Also - have you seen the Falklands 25 (http://www.falklands25.com/index.php) website?

Or the Falklands 25 section (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/InDepth/TheFalklands25YearsOn.htm) on the MOD website?

[WE Branch Fanatic]

See also this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=278748).

You may find this page (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.9435) on the RN website interesting.....

The National Falklands 25 Commemorative Event in central London on 17 June will culminate in a flypast of aircraft from all three Services at 4.15pm.

The 49 aircraft, including planes or aircrew representing all of the squadrons that took part in the campaign for the Falkland Islands in 1982, will converge over London to salute the veterans marching up The Mall, and then fly over Buckingham Palace where they will be reviewed by HRH The Prince of Wales, HRH The Duke of York and the Prime Minister.

Some of the modern-day aircraft and squadrons seen over London will represent the aircraft and squadrons that served in 1982, but have since been decommissioned or disbanded.

The 27 fixed wing aeroplanes will include Hawks representing the iconic Royal Navy Sea Harriers and Royal Air Force Harriers, the Red Arrows flying a 'Vulcan formation' to represent the contribution of the Vulcan bomber, and the new Typhoon fighter representing the 29 (Fighter) Squadron Phantom jets that provided air defence over Ascension Island.

With the Falklands only 500 miles from Argentina, air cover was provided by Sea Harriers from 800, 801, 809 and 899 Naval Air Squadrons flown by both Royal Navy and RAF pilots, onboard the 2 carriers HMS Hermes and HMS Invincible. The Sea Harriers flew more than 1200 sorties and defended against more than 100 Argentinean attackers without the loss of a single aircraft in air-to-air battle, though 6 were lost due to accident or ground fire. Certainly, without them, it is unlikely that the Falklands could have been retaken.

The Royal Air Force Harriers of 1(Fighter) Squadron also embarked on the carriers provided vital support to the land forces as they crossed the Islands and took Stanley.

Of course, the Typhoon's radar was derived from Blue Vixen, as fitted to the Sea Harrier FA2, and partly a response to the lessons of 1982 (as discussed on the Sea Jet (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98152) thread).

Air support from the Royal Air Force was important in providing both logistical and combat air power throughout the conflict. The foothold in Ascension allowed the Nimrod force to patrol the seas ahead of the Fleet providing early warning and initial intelligence gathering right up to the Falkland Islands. The Nimrods of 42, 51, 120, 201 and 206 Squadrons flew some of the longest combat sorties ever mounted.

The first 'Black Buck' mission was flown by Vulcan bombers taking off from Ascension Island on 30 April 82 to attempt to disable the captured Stanley Airport; these punitive air strikes from 44, 50 and 101 Squadrons continued right up until 11 June 82.

Unfortunately the restored Vulcan bomber will not take part in the flypast due to delays to her ready to fly date.

Admiral Peter Wilkinson, Director of the Falklands 25 Commemorations said:
"This is a great loss to the flypast as the Vulcan's 'Black Buck' raids were a great logistical achievement and iconic to the conflict."

The Hercules Force consisting of No 24, 30, 47 and 70 Squadrons established a vital link between the UK and Ascension Island before looping forward and providing air drops to the Fleet en route and the ground forces once established ashore. Both the Nimrod and Vulcan missions were supported by often more than 20 VC10 and Victor aircraft from 10, 55 and 57 Squadrons in order to get the one strike or reconnaissance aircraft on target; the airbridge continued for years afterwards.

The 22 rotary wing aircraft will include several Sea Kings, Merlins, and Joint Helicopter Command's Chinook, Lynx and Apache attack helicopters. 2 of the Sea King helicopters flying on 17 June actually served in the Falklands in 1982.

The workhorse of the Campaign was undoubtedly the Sea King helicopter, which provided everything from troop transport to anti-submarine warfare. HRH Prince Andrew flew a Sea King as a Royal Navy pilot and at one point acted as an Exocet missile decoy, one of the dangerous roles these aircraft were often asked to perform. In all, 17 maritime helicopters were lost.


Lieutenant Commander J Wells Royal Navy was a 'baby pilot' flying a Sea King at San Carlos Water, sweeping the sound on the night before D-Day 21 May. On 17 June he will be flying a Merlin and says of his new helicopter;
"If we had anything near this technology back in 1982, then it would have been a much shorter-lived armed conflict.

"Equipment is only half the story though, people and the way they are trained is the other half. Today our training is still second to none, as it was then. It is not very British to tell people how good you are - we prefer to let our actions speak for themselves."

Wells is one of several veteran aircrew at the controls during the flypast.

The Chinook in the fly past of represents the heavy lift Chinook "Bravo November" from 18 (Bomber) Squadron - the only Chinook which was airborne when Atlantic Conveyor was sunk and therefore spared.

She went on to provide sterling service throughout the campaign. Her crew each earned gallantry medals. Two DFCs have been awarded to crew serving in Bravo November in theatres around the world. This charmed aircraft is still in service today and only recently returned from Afghanistan.

Army and Royal Marine pilots flew both Scout and Gazelle helicopters in direct support of troops on the ground, providing vital battlefield communications, re-supply and casualty evacuation. A smaller target than larger support helicopters, the Scouts and Gazelles were often sent into the thick of the battle; as a result, 8 aircraft and their crew were lost, including 1 at the battle for Goose Green.

[Bismark]

and the new Typhoon fighter representing the 29 (Fighter) Squadron Phantom jets that provided air defence over Ascension Island.

Against what? Was there really a threat against Ascension or was it a case of "take part or be damned"?

[Archimedes]

It was a case of 'better safe than sorry', I think.

Although it was recognised that it was very, very unlikely the possibility that the Argentines might launch some sort of SF raid on Ascension, using C-130s (the practicalities of the C-130s getting there notwithstanding) couldn't be completely discounted. If we were fitting our Hercs with AAR probes, why couldn't they, refuelling them via the tanker-equipped Hercs in the Argentine inventory? So that needed to be guarded against, no matter how remote the possibility.

There was also the need to keep the Soviets away from the place (remember that at the time, some officials worried that the Russians might pass info to the Argentines)


I have heard a suggestion that there was a further thought that - again while highly improbable - it couldn't be guaranteed with absolute certainty that the Argentines, perhaps in a fit of desperation, might somehow manage to sail 25 de Mayo past the Task Force and Nimrod cover to get within range to fly off an Alpha Strike.

All fairly improbable, but until 2 April 1982, the government had thought that the probability of an Argentine invasion of the Falklands was fairly implausible... So ruling things out on the basis that they appeared a rather remote possibility didn't feature in the thinking at the time.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Good to see/hear that three (ex) Sea Harrier pilots took part - flying Hawks.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Archimedes - Once again you are talking crazy talk. After all wouldn't it have made more sense to leave the Phantoms at home and save some money (what was the '82 version of plasma screens TV's for Whitehall BTW?) than do what we in the military have been brought up believing which is cover all eventualities when practical?

:}

I guess 'Bismark' has his colours well and truly nailed to a particular mast.

:rolleyes:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I forgot to add the the three ex Sea Jet drivers mentioned above all took part in Operation Corporate.

I found this video on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPDjoJczcmg&mode=related&search=) that relates to HMS Hermes. Lots of pictures of activity on deck, decks full of jets and helicopters etc.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

From the MOD website: FAA Units represented (http://www.operations.mod.uk/falklands25/FLEET%20AIR%20ARM%20UNITS%20REPRESENTED.doc)