Citation II vs Citation Bravo

[SkyTrax2]

Hello,

Wonder if l could canvass some opinion from you good folks, Boss is looking at buying either a II or a Bravo, obviously l know the Bravo is more capable and more modern but just wondering what the thoughts were on both aircraft.

Whats the Direct operating costs on both aircraft in the UK?, is the Bravo actually cheaper than the II per hour as its newer and has better perfomance?

My other thoughts are Maintenance, l guess there will be more AD/SB's out for the II than the Bravo, is there anything you should watch our for on both aircraft that wouldnt appear on a sellers website!?

I guess and l might be wrong that just pure maintenance costs is more on the II than the Bravo, any thoughts?

My own opinion at the moment is that l dont fancy a 25 year old Citation II, more like a 1989 onwards but when you look at the cost of this which is around $2.5M USD's against a 10 year old Bravo at anywhere between $3.3 to $3.9M USD's l prefer the Bravo.

Appreciate any information you could give me.

Thanks
SkyTrax2

[His dudeness]

Do you really need a II or Bravo ? If your Boss doesnt need the Space or Range, why not buy a CJ? Does more or less the same for lower DOC´s and is way more maintenance friendly as a II or Bravo. Also the cabin is much quieter than in the II or Bravo (Bravo is better than the II)These are basically the same aircraft, systemwise there is no real difference as far as maintenance is concerned.
The Bravo is a tad faster (390 knots compared to 365)
The Aircondition is usually way better in the CJ than in both older models.
The Baggage compartment is better on the CJ.
Have flown CJ, CJ2, II, S/II, Bravo and a few others (V, Ultra, Encore). Never really liked the II nor the Bravo....

[SkyTrax2]

His Dudeness,

Thanks for the reply, I agree the CJ would be better but he doesnt want a CJ/CJ1 because of seat limitations or a CJ2 because of cost.

He seems set on the II or the Bravo, problem is he is looking also for something with around 1100-1500 nm range.

If it were between the 2 what in your opinion would you do?

Thanks
Skytrax

[His dudeness]

BRAVO.
1500nm is also for the Bravo very much on the edge, especially when you have more than just 2 pax...but see it from the avionics standpoint: if one has to upgrade, it is easier (usually) on a more modern avionics package, also its always better to invest in a more modern machine than in a real oldtimer.


What trips does your boss have in mind ? I think I still have the old files and could run them through PPS and let you know what is possible...

[SkyTrax2]

His Dudeness,

That would be cool, here are the potential trips he has, most times on the long sectors it will only be 1 or 2, mainly from Aldergrove but:

Aldergrove - Malta
Aldergrove - Palma
Aldergrove - Gibraltar
Aldergrove - Malaga
Aberdeen - Gibraltar
Dundee - Palermo
Glasgow - Faro
Aberdeen - Bucharest

These are just some of the long sectors he is looking to do!

Also Would you or anyone have any idea of the rough hourly costs of the Bravo and the II.

Cheers for all your help!

Skytrax2

[His dudeness]

Skytrax, I´m sorry but I couldn´t find the II-file any more...

This is for the Bravo:

Conditions:
1 pax weights 212lbs, Standard atmosphere, NO WIND

EGAA LMML FL450 1518nm 4:25 req. Fuel 4600lbs 3 pax 200lbs
ALTN LICC (100nm)

EGAA-LEPA FL410 1058nm 3:03 required fuel 3850lbs 6 pax 300lbs baggage ALTN LEIB (100nm)

EGAA-LXGB FL410 1215nm 3:27 required fuel 4200lbs 5 pax 200lbs Baggage ALTN GMTT (60nm)

EGAA-LEMG same like LXGB

EGPD-LXGB FL450 1366nm 4:02 required fuel 4200lbs 4 pax 200lbs Baggage ALTN GMTT

EGPN-LICJ FL450 1408nm 4:10 required fuel 4350lbs 4 Pax 150lbs Baggage ALTN LICC 120nm

EGPF-LPFR FL450 1218nm 3:36 required fuel 4120lbs 100lbs Baggage ALTN LEJR 118nm

EGPD-LRBS FL450 1450nm 4.15 reqired fuel 4430lbs 4 Oax 150lbs Baggage ALTN LROP 29nm

All of the above are along airways, but not checked for IFPS clearance.
All fuel figures are including a 5% contingency and Holding fuel for 30 mins.

Bear in mind that even a mild headwind over 4 hrs means a lot more fuel. Also going to GIB you´re not allowed to land in Spain, so a diversion for fuel would mean to make your decision either to go into northern Portugal or southwest of France. Some of the flights could mean that you would use MNPS airspace.

[SkyTrax2]

His Dudeness,Thanks for all that information, extremely uselful, appreciate it!Just wondering as another thought the Cessna 650 Citation III, that doesnt seem to be that popular an aircraft in Europe, is there any reason for that? Just wondering as purchase costs for a slightly older model are not as high as l thought.Maybe there is a reason for that.Any clues anyone!?Skytrax2

[max.aret]

Maybe this page helps:

http://www.omnijet.com/doc/

Arcording to it the DOC of a Citation III are nearly twice as high as of a Citation Bravo.

[formulaben]

Keep in mind the age of the aircraft. A Citation II will have more squawks and maintenance issues, all things equal. Some of the IIs are coming up on 35 years old!

[Chilli Monster]

Judging by your probable mission profiles I don't think a II is going to cut the mustard.

I would seriously be looking at a V. Early ones are still younger than a II, faster than a II and you're not going to find yourself using the "pucker" factor of the II on long range trips.

DOC - about 20% more

[formulaben]

If you can swing it, the V (or any other 560) is a much better aircraft, IMHO.