Rescue co-ordination

[Alex_Ford]

When you are attending an incident you obviously talk to the local ATC, but do you also talk to a central co-ordination rescue comms centre that maybe the other services like Fire and rescue or coastguard would also be in comms with, and if the answer is yes what would that central comms base be called please?

Thanks in advance

Alex Ford.

[20Minuter]

In general terms the Aeronautical Rescue Coordination Centre does this task in the UK. But not so much re car accidents. That would be down to regional ambulance services for HEMS ops. Then the Maritime and Coastguard Agency do their bit too. This will get complicated to explain as there are lots of overlaps. Stick with the ARCC, it would be easier.

[Bravo73]

AKA Kinloss:

www.kinlossrescue.com (http://www.kinlossrescue.com/)

[Droopystop]

Call sign "Kinloss Rescue"

[Alex_Ford]

Hi All,

Many thanks for those quick replies. It would seem to be fairly local then for regional incidents then, but Kinloss would be in play if it was some kind of major incident I guess?

Does anybody know what the local/regional co-ordination service would be at Caernarfon please?

Many thanks

Alex Ford

[114]

A range of different ai resources would be tasked according to the type of incident. As well as military air resources, co-ordinated by our colleagues in Scotland, there are also Ambulance and Police air resources. Without speaking for the Police, the Air Ambulance is tasked and control by Ambulance control who would liaise bilaterally with other air resources that may be tasked or requested. Unfortunately, am not at liberty to divulge the Ambulance control call-sign.

[Alex_Ford]

Thanks very much for your reply 114.

Alex Ford

[malaprop]

Air Ambulance can speak to their control on one band and to ATC, also SAR aircraft via a dedicated frequency in the normal VHF band. I don't know how many can speak to the Coastguard. Police can speak to ATC and their own control, some can speak to the coastguard. Very few if any can speak to Ambulance control or fire brigade; contact with SAR as above.Neither can speak to RCC directly. SAR [mil] can speak to RCC, ATC and coastguard but not to any of the main 3 emergency services.Great isn't it......

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

At Caernarfon - as anywhere within the UK SRR - the ARCC at Kinloss would still be the co-ordinating authority for any rescue aircraft activity (presumably the Valley Sea King in most cases); Kinloss will be in the loop on any aerial rescue, the small-scale stuff as well as major incidents, given that in almost every case the rescue helicopters are tasked to any nature of incident by the ARCC. On the ground, that area is covered by Holyhead Coastguard, who would be in charge of CG/lifeboat teams responding to a coastal or maritime incident, and would also speak direct to the rescue helicopter if it was involved. In addition, the Coastguard often provide an invaluable comms relay for overland incidents which are under Police control, given the afore-mentioned difficulties with comms between rescue helicopters and civilian emergency services.

[jayteeto]

Police radio systems are just about finished with a major upgrade. Some forces on 1st Generation, some on an upgrade. The idea is that a policeman in london should be able to talk to a policeman in scotland without difficulty. (That is the idea!!) O2 are providing this service, which is improving all the time. Military and Ambo helicopters do not have that facility....Yet. A simple bolt on cradle should become available, however the cost will probably kill off the chances of a fit. Our heli has a coastguard radio fitted, which is used fairly regularly. At major incidents, like the recent train crash, things seem to muddle through. When all else fails, 121.5 is always available!!

[Alex_Ford]

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for all your time and replies.

I used to work for Mc Alpine helis some while ago in the Avionics dept and had to program all the frequs in the Nats radios sometimes - it was a real pain and the mixture of different radio fits was always challenging!

Alex Ford

[Skidkid]

A major advantage of the new police TETRA/Airwave radio system is that it provides direct access to the public telephone network. It is possible, therefore, for the crew to telephone ARCC, D&D or the appropriate Fire, Ambulance, Coastguard control room and liaise with them directly. Many control rooms are then able to "patch" that phone call into their own radio system.

[malaprop]

That's if you don't mind the 80% of occasions where the TETRA to phone call drops off, doesn't dial or is competely unreadable....

[Skidkid]

malaprop

Admittedly there have been a number of teething problems with Airwave but an 80% drop-out rate is excessive and does not reflect that of other units. Get your engineers to check your aerial connections and make sure that your radio is programmed to operate on the correct system - Ground or Air.

If you still have problems, complain to O2; repeatedly if necessary!

[malaprop]

No longer doing that sort of work, but at the time it seemed there was nothing wrong with hardware or programmes, air/ground, ISSIs etc - it just didn't work very well.

[Skidkid]

malaprop

I agree that there used to be many frustrations and there still are occasionally. However, there has been a huge improvement since the early times.

When the system is working well, it is a massive improvement from the old days of VHF/UHF.

[jayteeto]

Things are much much better now, still some room for improvement, but overall an excellent system compared to the old one.

[on21]

I've got to echo malaprop TETRA is not brilliant, there's plenty of dead spots and the drop out rate is large. It also cuts off if your on a telephone call longer than 10 minutes.

[Thomas coupling]

Alex,

In your area, the police would accept primacy of the situation in consultation with ARCC. While plans are afoot for the MAOT from the ARCC to take over full air to air co-ordination, the police helicopter would call you over to the (informal) nationally accepted scene of disaster frequency of: 123x1 to initiate some form of collision avoidance procedure.

There is currently an attempt by the Home Office/CAA to employ the efforts of the BHAB emergency services sub committee in the shape of HELP:[Helicopter Emergency Liaison Plan].

Believe it or not, other than this, the government, nor the military have any CO-ORDINATED means of aerial deconfliction at national disasters. Even after continuous testing of the system with incidents like the cumbria train crash recently, or even 7/7.

Basically it has been left to us and the mil to sort ourselves out. And that is what we have done with this system.
It has yet to be tested.................:ugh:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Basically it has been left to us and the mil to sort ourselves out


Yes, and at the Cumbria train crash our (ie Pol and Mil) DIY deconfliction fortunately worked well - the Police helo did sterling service, and was an ideal On-Scene Co-ordinator, having as he did comms with both ground parties and the SAR aircraft, and an understanding of the needs/activities of both as well.

The trouble is that, had weather/unserviceabillity/other tasking prevented the Police helo from responding, no aircraft would have been able to take on that mantle (a Sea King could have done, but all were busy with the primary role of evacuating the injured) - indeed, when the Police a/c left the scene, half way through the incident, the co-ordination deteriorated noticeably (though, in this case, the rescue task from a helicopter point of view was actually pretty simple, so it didn't cause undue problems).

As TC says, is it really too much to ask that, in the 21st Century, emergency services/SAR assets etc be given equipment which allows us all to communicate easily? No hope though of RAF Sea Kings ever being upgraded - what little money the Flying Circus has is all being spent on ops in sandy places. I'm not suggesting for a moment that this is a bad thing - the guys and girls out there deserve all the equipment and support we can collectively manage - but wouldn't it be good if there was enough money simultaneously to invest in the UK-based military (especially those who daily serve the UK population), with the surely noble result of enhancing the ability to save life?

[Skidkid]

on21

If you have "plenty of dead spots" complain to O2, repeatedly if necessary. They have a contract to provide national coverage.

With regard to the "10 minute rule", that was designed into the system deliberately, in liaison with ACPO & HO, to deter unnecessary nattering. If you have an operational requirement for a longer call, then O2 can programme the system to allow your particular radio set do do it. You will have to convince your HQ to authorize it though.

[Droopy]

I agree with TC and Torque on this. We were first on the scene of the Morecambe Bay cockling disaster, probably half an hour ahead of the MIL SAR assets; this is the norm with police units - on scene quickly and able to do very little if you go by the book.
The comments about lack of co-ordination are absolutely correct. We had a situation where there were police comms x 3, coastguard and SAR VHF. The air support unit were the only asset able to talk to all three, yet were there primarily to search. When the SAR aircraft turned up it was quickly agreed that we might as well continue to try and co-ordinate because we were able to receive reports from the two forces covering the area. The result was that some calls or search actions must have been missed - an unrealistically high comms workload and an intense search task made that inevitable.
I'd also agree with Malaprop on the TETRA system, though at least if there were some joined up emergency services planning applying TETRA across the board would be a start.