A unified Union from top to bottom.

[Howard Hughes]

I posted this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3189626&postcount=35) on another thread, but it mostly went unnoticed.

I understand union fees are currently around 1% of annual salary in the AFAP, not sure about AIPA! Why not increase this to 1.1 or 1.2% and make membership free to those who can least afford it? This would in effect bring all pilots into one group and stop the rot from 'beneath' as it has so eloquently been put.

May I suggest a cut off for free membership that sits just below the award rate for a Turboprop Captain (most would recognise that at this point in your career it's almost a livable wage). This way F/O's, Charter Pilots and many Instructors would gain free mebership and have the union work on their behalf for better conditions.

People who are a little further advanced in their careers would be supporting those who are up and coming and could expect some loyalty in return with regard to under cutting of wages, only then might we have some hope of uniting all levels of aviation!

Think about it...
Cheers, HH.

I am re-posting it, in the hope of provoking some discussion, what do you think? Any improvements?

[Yon Garde]

Brilliant idea, count me in!:ok:

[SM4 Pirate]

But it is all about me HH.:\

Why should I pay to support someone below me achieve their dreams? Who paid for me to achieve mine, who helped me?:suspect:

The biggest problem I see is that what would the cost base actually be? .1 or .2 extra might be enough, but then again might be much too short.:{

The resources that both AFAP and AIPA have currently pay for the 'services' delivered by both; would this cost base go down or up if the resources were pooled but membership significantly increased?:confused:

Would new GA only types coming through use significantly more resources than those that a currently members, thus changing the benefit cost ratio?:uhoh:

From an industrial view point, who would be voting on what? Equal voting rights for those who pay nothing/very little?:uhoh:

I could see the LOLI payments etc. causing a huge headache.:}

But, playing devils avocate above and asking those questions, I think the idea certainly has merrit. :ugh:

What about the executives setting up some dialog and reporting back on the concept; what about Civil Air, get them on board too?:D :D

[2p!ssed2drive]

I'll stick my hand up.

Count me in

[Howard Hughes]

SM4 those are all very valid questions and things that would need to be sorted out! Whilst I have never been a big advocate for unions, even I can see that in order to move forward as a group, we need a unified union or at the very least joint cooperation between the major groups.

I also understand that this may create as many problems as it will solve, for example the requirements of a VFR charter pilot on Groote Eylandt, are far removed from a senior checkie implementing the introduction of the A-380! But what I am trying to point out, is that each group has something to offer the others.

Lets take the major players at the moment:
-AIPA are dealing with EBA issues as well as the constant threat from within their own company!
-AFAP members themselves, including Virgin, RFDS and others are all currently negotiating EBA's.
-JPC have their own problems, incuding International ops introduction and other pressures from within their own group of companies.
-GA faces constant bankruptcies and commercial pressures.

All of us face challenges from foreign (read lower paid workers), under cutting by our colleagues and continued erosion of our current conditions. The prospect of a united union has been talked about many times on Pprune perhaps now is the time to take action!

At the risk of sounding like a government type, what I would like to do is to perhaps call for a 'Summit' between the major groups, to sort out a united way forward. This may or may not involve one union, but it should certainly be done with co-operation from within the vested interests.

Now I am sure some will dredge up old wounds from the past, but I think it is time we forgot and moved forward, you don't even have to forgive if you don't want to, but lets move forward!

What I look forward to is continuing my career and providing it is still available for those that follow in the future.
Cheers, HH.:ok:

PS: As for the all about me, I think most are looking to put something back, perhaps this is the opportunity that they need!

PPS: Having Civil Air involved would be encouraged, imagine the safety implications of having all the groups on the same page!

[dodgybrothers]

but it is affordable, its only 1%. If you earn 15k then you only pay 1%, if you earn 150k you pay 1%. If they said to me, oh you earn 200k you pay 2%, that would be it, I would no longer be a member. The only other way would be to flat rate it, ie $500 but then you would all say that is not fair to the guys earn less than 50k.

To me its an insurance policy, with the @rseholes that I have worked for over the years I cannot afford not to have it, an unless you guys have insurance you cannot afford not to have it either. But make it more expensive and I'll get my own insurance.

[Howard Hughes]

Thats the whole idea Dodgy, people shouldn't be asked to live on $15,000 per year, nor should people be accepting that level of pay, but without representation what do you expect?

Don't know about you, but casual positions aside my lowest pay was roughly $29,000 per annum, this of course thanks to the award negociated by AFAP. Sadly even at that level of pay, with a wife to feed and rent of over $250, I was unable to find $290 per annum for the fees, during this time I spent any wealth I had accumulated just to live.

For me it has only been in recent years that I have been able to afford the cover that I should have had all along. You might say how can you not afford it? Well it's all about putting food on the table.

Cheers, HH.:ok:

[Sumdumguy]

I've been a member of AFAP since the days I was getting paid 350$/wk. If people say they cant afford membership, they're using that as an excuse. I wouldn't support any policy of people getting free membership and being subsidised by those who are a little better off financially. I dont think thats fair

[Howard Hughes]

My point being, it only takes an increase of 0.2 percent per year for someone on $150,000+ to cover the fees of someone on $30,000...:hmm:

Another idea rather than free for people on low incomes, perhaps a yearly fee for all, say $52 (1 dollar per week) + 1% of annul salary for all who earn in excess of $45,000!

Just ideas to toss around.:ok:

[Howard Hughes]

I don't necessarily advocate a single union, but I do advocate a united front!

Even a single union would need varying levels to deal with the varying levels of aviation!

Is our current system of many unions fairing any better?

[dodgybrothers]

I'm not condoning pay of 15k, I had to accept it and managed to pay my fees with it but of course that doesn't make me a hero and I don't wish it on anyone. Other unions such as the TWU have far cheaper rates and more clout, unfortunately our union botched their clout credibility 17.5 years ago. Times to airlines are far less than what they were 10-20 years ago and jet seats 'appear' more abundant yet less lucrative. The cycle is not isolated to our industry but it does seem to be more prevailant, yet our regulator not only condones it but openly supports it. The MCPL is evidence of this.

It is chicken and the egg, do you drop the rates entirely to get more involved? I would think that the AFAP have to drop their rates to 0.5% to try to bolster the membership not their union coffers and at least attempt to increase membership. At least that drop in rate would reflect a drop industry standard pay(!)

The % of pay is fair, just the the Hong Kong tax system where everyone pay a flat 15% (might be more these days) so if you earn more, you pay more not like the @rsehole braketed system we have here.

[Chimbu chuckles]

That doesn't seem to have applied to management though PAF?

[ITCZ]

Sorry HH but I think your idea just plain wont work. Having read your posts over the last six or seven years, I am surprised that you offered the 'free lunch' solution to rope pilots in under one banner.

You could PAY pilots to be part of the union and some still would not join. Then there is the small problem that it was not the union that required paid membership, but the legislation.

The problem is not that pilots are put off by the cost. The problem is that a lot of pilots don't see the value of union membership -- until they have a problem staring them in the face.

It is usually then that the purse strings loosen (reluctantly). Usually accompanied by complaints about the silly rule of actually having to be a financial member at the time of a complaint/incident.
It might seem unfair to you, but to someone that has paid their dues for the last fifteen years, it just sounds plain CHEAP when I hear it.

I was able to dig into MY pocket when I was a sh!t-kicker C210 pilot working for "Secutib" and Hardy Aviation. Princely salary of $26,500 per annum. AFAP subs at the time were a minimum of $350 if I remember right -- MORE than 1% of my single engine VFR wage. I have the receipts and payslips downstairs if you wanna see.

I saw the value as soon as good ole' Richard G closed down Secutib with an average of ten weeks annual leave owing to each pilot. Our lovely former owner thought that 6 weeks rec leave per annum for pilots was excessive, and made noises about only paying part of our entitlements. Secutib was in administration, and we saw nothing, nada, for weeks.

My AFAP membership paid for itself for the next five years when a quick phonecall to Melbourne had Coxie firing rockets at the administrator. Twelve weeks annual leave, paid in full, by the end of the week.
I have sat next to hundreds of cheapskate pilots that hesitate to shell out 1% of a reasonable salary. They scream like stuck pigs when their employer introduces AWA, reduces holiday access, doesn't pay allowances. To my ears, its all just blah.

There is no great secret. Anyone that reads these pages has heard of the AFAP, the TWU, etc. If you are too cheap to set aside 0.25% of your salary in four x trimonthly payments onto your credit card, then be honest, you are just being CHEAP. Your average pilot spends three times that much in beer per annum.

Everybody knows that the AFAP etc are not perfect. They cannot rescue pilots from every stupid situation they find themselves in - and a lot of them are due to a lack of courage in asking employers direct questions. But I know my union dues represent farking excellent value for money. If I put a US$55 million aircraft into the mud at the end of the runway, my measly 1% contribution will be nothing compared to the sh!t I would be in if I had 'saved' that money.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Well said ITCZ:D

PAF...take your pick:hmm:

[Howard Hughes]

I am surprised that you offered the 'free lunch' solution to rope pilots in under one banner.
It seems you have missed the point totally, it's not about a free lunch, it's about unifying the pilot body (not necessarily under the one banner) and providing reciprocal benefits to all parties!

The major concerns that are so often put forward on Pprune need to be addressed at present they are not!
-To many individual unions.
-Pilots under cutting other pilots (ie: seperate unions under cutting one another).
-Companies not paying the award.
-GA pilots who work for nothing.
I was able to dig into MY pocket when I was a sh!t-kicker C210 pilot working for "Secutib" and Hardy Aviation. Princely salary of $26,500 per annum. AFAP subs at the time were a minimum of $350 if I remember right -- MORE than 1% of my single engine VFR wage. I have the receipts and payslips downstairs if you wanna see.
Good for you, if I was able to, I would have as well, as I said previously it was not fiscally possible when liabilities exceeded income!
The problem is not that pilots are put off by the cost. The problem is that a lot of pilots don't see the value of union membership -- until they have a problem staring them in the face.
I don't agree, if people were given the opportunity to join from day one for free, many would! This would allow them to assess first hand the cost/benefit relationship, it would also bring many pilots into the fold much sooner! Whilst yourself and others have managed to join whilst in GA, I would say the vast majority do not join until later in their careers.

I am not here to debate the relative merits of one union or another, nor am I here to pass judgement on the 'value for money' provided by the AFAP! What I am trying to point out is that unions are under represented amongst the GA/small regional fratenity and something needs to be done. There are hundreds of threads on prune about the problems in the industry, many of which stem from the entry level positions upwards, the most common solution put forward is unity, I am expanding that by saying we need to be better represented in GA and offering but one solution. Do you agree with that much at least?

To look at it another way, how many pilots are employed by the airlines? How many are employed in GA/small regionals and how many have union representation? Which group is larger? Which group has the most industrial leverage?

When a house of cards topples over, it falls from the bottom up, not the other way round! Lets build a stonger foundation, benefits will flow both ways....:ok:

[Eastwest Loco]

Okay - now here is an idea.

Associate membership. The Loco bloke here deals with a lot of bookings over a 12 month period from my mates in here. I do make a reasonable return from this,

Why could we not instigate a fund for us non-flying as a means to cover the butts of the up and coming generation of Professional Pilots? Pay their fees and make sure they are protected.

There a lot of other non Airline/Pilot/Cabin Crew posters who enjoy this part of the web and some use it for their own purposes, and a lot of senior Pilots who would like to protect the next generation.

Such a fund could be used to cover the butts of those who could become victims of employers because they had no fallback if they have a feral employer. It may also help to sort out the feral employers.

Serious suggestion dudes and dudettes. I am willing to chuck in $500.00 to start the fund if it can find a base and direction from you good people. The Union itself would be the logical admin, and as Pilots reach their goal in higher areas of the Industry the good and true ones would repay the fund and keep it rolling. It is not a huge amount, but a start.

Call it AirAid. Reclaiming the skies for those who love to fly. Whatever.
Protecting the rights and conditions of Pilots and Cabin Crew is one of the few things we can do to hold the remnants of a bastardised industry together and hopefully rebuild it just a little.

I am up for it, but is anyone else ready to take on this beast? I only have an idiot savante moment on rare occasion, but I think this emu may actually fly.

The Woomerii know where to find me.

Best regards

Ron

EWL

[Chimbu chuckles]

While ideas such as the above from Loco are nice thoughts and worthy or merit those suggesting AFAP membership is unaffordable on GA pay are just spouting BS...or worse wanting something for nothing.

Whether it is $350/annum flat for a starting out GA pilot or 1% of $29k/annum, $290/annum, it equates to such a miniscule amount of money per week that it just beggars belief that any intelligent person would object....or not see the value.

$350/annum is < $7/week.

So you're going to tell me that 1 packet of smokes a week or 2 beers is too much to pay for all that the AFAP can provide you?

I bet you always 'manage' to find the $ for ciggies and beer each week.:hmm:

[Howard Hughes]

those suggesting AFAP membership is unaffordable on GA pay are just spouting BS
I normally agree with your thoughts Chimbu but not in this case, I would like to see figures about numbers of GA pilots compared to paid up members. I suspect they are WAY short of the numbers in Airlines/Regionals. It has been my experience through out GA, that very few were AFAP members. As usual I always stand to be corrected but as yet no facts!

By the way don't drink beer, don't smoke, but really that is not the point!:hmm:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Don't drink and don't smoke....Geez:uhoh:

Ok it equates to a Big Mac meal upsized once a week...what ever...and it is exactly the fecking point.

Cost is not what stops guys and girls in GA joining AFAP...it is apathy.

[Howard Hughes]

and it is exactly the fecking point
Ok I will change tack a little, how can we improve membership in GA and smaller regionals to stop pilots under cutting one another?

I have never claimed to have the answer, just a suggestion to open up the debate!

If apathy is the problem, I would suggest the unions need to do way more ground work in order to build a base in GA! In 7 1/2 years in GA/Small Regionals I never saw a representative not once, any information I found out, I found out on my own, I had to chase them in order to join!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Education.

Perhaps AFAP should make presentations to all students undergoing CPL training...at TAFE colleges or the larger flying schools.

Perhaps CFIs could incorporate 1st year AFAP membership within the quoted CPL syllabus cost so that all brand new CPLs graduate with membership and can evaluate it for 12 mths before deciding to renew or not.

[Howard Hughes]

Now that is a plan!:D

To expand on it a little, could a fund not be set up as EWL suggested, to provide first years membership free to new CPL's? I know you don't like the idea of a 'free lunch', but the good will that it creates will be repaid many fold in the future, perhaps not in monetary value but certainly in kind.

Whilst I am at it, why is there no mentoring system for pilots? I am sure fresh CPL's would benefit by learning from aviation veterans! There are things you just can't learn from a flying school!

Times they are a changing, we need to change too in order to keep our profession prosperous.:ok:

[Eastwest Loco]

Now that is a direction Howard.

First year coverage and a way to sort out recalcitrant employers, and also to provide a larger base to ensure conditions and treatment of Pilots in later years. Just so long as the Union does not go into "bulletproof and too damned important" mode which is what shagged the puppy in the last major instance.

My "rough" idea has just taken on some logic. New drivers just out of flight school, would be in general very low on funds as they have probably sold their souls to pay for the qualifications. Year one coverage will ensure they are not gang banged by employers.

While the industry has you guys and girls in the front line and in total control, us leeches and all the ancilliary people that make it all happen have an even money chance of retaining a semblance of normality. Make it so Captains.

EWL

[ITCZ]

Good for you, if I was able to, I would have as well, as I said previously it was not fiscally possible when liabilities exceeded income!

Its not about 'good for me' and patting myself on the back. I was in pretty much the same career and family position you painted for yourself... several mouths to feed, and house. And there are a few Ppruners that will recall that Darwin was one of the most expensive places in Australia to attempt both those feats in the early 1990s.

Ergo, you have no excuse. I do not claim to be a better person than you, nor more disciplined. I was pretty much in the same boat. I found the money for union subs, you deployed your meagre resources in other ways.

The cost of union membership to cover a CPL performing single engined VFR work is approximately the cost of paying for a checkout in a C210 to get a job. It is half the cost of purchasing a handheld GPS, and a half to two thirds the cost of equipping yourself with a David Clark headset (forget the ANR).

And as my friend points out, it is a fraction of the money spent on beer etc.

HH, I do know from reading your posts that you are genuinely concerned about the state of the profession. And good on you for putting forward a suggestion.

However, the bit that gets my goat is.... well, let me turn it around for you and maybe you will see what I am driving at.

Lets say your neighbour leans over your fence and starts telling you that you are not spending your money properly on looking after your house. You obviously have a few dollars by the nice suit you wear when you head off to work, and it really behoves you to make an extra contribution to smarten up the streetscape, for the sake of your good neighbours as well as yourself.

I think that you might be tempted to go tell that guy to mind his own business.

What I read from your posts is another classic "why dont they...." from a pilot. Along with that sage advice, which you obviously spent a bit of time thinking over, you admit to a few things...

.....that you are not a union man,
.....your general outlook is heavily influenced by a North American political and social mores that place a lot of faith in the power of corporations to do good, which I am afraid just doesn't bear up in the context of a conservative and short sighted Australian aviation management culture,
.....you have not previously attempted to organise a workforce,
.....you have no experience of formally representing a workforce to an employer,
.....you are unaware of the previous and current IR legislation.
.....you gloss over the foibles, rivalries, jealousies and other all too human traits of the people you think to organise.

First thing that ticks me off --

Now it so happens that I have spent more than a little time trying to generally better the lot of my fellow pilots in those places where I worked.

And I am telling you brother, that your heart might be pure and your intentions good, but you don't know nuthin' until you walk a mile or two in the shoes of a workplace rep/branch committee member.

It doesn't matter if we are talking about a 'contract' grade 3 instructor earning $30/hr while the prop turns, or a senior check captain on a salary of $200k. I have heard all of them come up with excuses for not paying.

There are not many insurance policies that you can buy for yourself that will indemnify you for the loss of an aeroplane on your watch, C182 or B747, plus the people and property in it and underneath it, for only $350 or 1% of your base salary.

I put it to you that that 'cover' is ridiculously cheap. A medical doctor, chartered accountant, etc would love that professional indemnity cover at that price.

So it is not about affordability. It is about whether the pilot 'buys' the idea of being protected, or not. It is closely linked to the mindset of.. I am a good employee, I do what I am told, I know my job, my employer will look after me.... etc.

Fine.

Just don't try and tell me I don't get it. I have been there, I found it hard to find the money, and boy am I glad I did. I haven't put a scratch on an airplane (yet) and I think I am pretty good at my job, but that is no protection in my mind. You never know what is around the corner.

I have fielded panicked phone calls from guys that in all other respects were just like me, but maybe they made a joke about the check and training manager, were being 'set up' by a colleague, had made a bad judgement call at work despite their best efforts. Got an email inbox full of "i was overlooked" "someone else got my slot" "coerced into signing an AWA" "not paid my entitlements" "forced base transfer with no time to relocate family" "facing forced redundancy". Its all there.

Second thing that ticks me off --

Becoming a member is the first step. An important step, but only a first step. A union is not like being in a health fund. You don't pay the minimum dues and turn around and say "gimme."

Unions and employee associations are more like sporting clubs or community associations. All that your dues get you is the right to vote, and participate. A little extra effort is required. It used to be expected, but generation X and Y and all that....

It implies that you at least follow what is going on. And at some stage participate as a base rep, sit on the technical committee, write a paper on issues facing junior members. Go to social functions, meet other members, take on some responsibilities. Become a "pilot friend" in readiness for the day when a boggie 210 pilot needs a hand.

Unions, whether the AFAP, TWU, MUA or SDA, are run on shoestring budgets. There might be some salaried officials, but they are directed by a volunteer committee or board.

So HH, what I am saying there is -- if a bloke cant pass the 'test' of stumping up a few lousy bucks, then what use will he be? The real test is participation. Making it cheaper or free won't change anything.

Third thing that ticks me off ---

Like any AFAP-member pilot that managed to find and stump up the hard earned dollars during the good times and the bad times, and watched his/her union live under a cloud of damages litigation for fifteen years, I am very pleased to see that the federation has not only survived, but has turned the corner and is now in sound financial health and getting stronger. That is down to the hard work and commitment of a handful of pilots that simply believed that australian pilots needed the federation.

It is far from perfect, but it is not the organisation it used to be. The swagger is gone. It is now a much more streetwise organisation that has to pick its battles. It has some superb resources, and most importantly, it has legal recognition within the IR system (ask the National Jet pilot group what that means) and the capability to effect permanent change as a registered industrial organisation, and it knows the industry.

And a neighbour whose armchair attentions have just turned to pilot conditions, that has never paid a dollar in dues, leans over the fence and starts to tell the AFAP how it should collect its dues, how it should spend its money, how it should structure itself?

What answer did you expect?!?

[Howard Hughes]

ITCZ,

What a remarkably concise and erudite post, almost don't know where to start with a response! :ok:

At the risk of wasting far too much bandwidth, perhaps I will begin by leaving the personalities aside and stating what I know to be true!

-Pilots are under represented in GA!
-In my 7 1/2 years in GA, down the highway, then at the other end of the apron from Hardy's, I never saw a union rep not once!
-As a new joiner to a small regional, still no sign of a rep.
-I had no direct knowledge of the union, nor their benefits, only heresay and second hand (often incorrect) info!

I think Chimbu as he usually does, has hit on the head, Education is the key, but that has to be started somewhere!

Whilst you may not agree with my view, or my politics, do you agree that education and an increase of the union base is required, in order to stop the rot at the higher levels?

If your answer is yes, how do you propose that we achieve it?


PS: I think EWL is definately on the right track!:ok:

[019360]

Many pilots now working for Qantas or ex Ansett guys now working overseas seem to have forgotten to ever pay back the significant financial assistance they received immediately prior to them crossing picket lines years ago. Maybe they could be prompted to kick in to the admirable idea of a "Free First Year" membership of the AFAP for all new commercial licence holders.

I will totally support this idea of the "Free First Year"....any AFAP Office holders reading this thread?

[LookinDown]

There have been some valuable points made in this thread.

HH's reference to mentoring is very important is terms of establishing new CPLs on an initial career path which includes at least a basic knowledge of what benefits can be accessed through union membership and the risks without it. Also, as has been well pointed out, just how cheap this access and therefore what a sound investment it actually is given the possible (read probable over a whole career) career threatening events that might occur.

QF is finally getting serious about their mentoring program and over time there should be a good model from which to gather the best and most effective ideas for supporting any new pilot anywhere.

Given the typical GA environment for newbies its highly unlikely there will ever be much in the way of mentoring available unless things change. The positive professional relationship which sometimes develops with a more senior pilot isnt what I'm referring to here even though it can involve mentoring. Its formal mentoring which incorporates an agenda of all the pertinent aspects of the CP role that the mentor can bring into play at relevant opportunities through a positive rapport. In this way 'holes' in understanding are minimised.

The challenge is how to do this. I'd argue that with cheap electronic media these days in even the most remote communities, tied in with occasional face to face if only via video link it wouldnt be too hard. An even greater challenge is by who? Here is a perfect opportunity to promote the value of union membership through direct personal support while providing essential mentoring by selected and trained union reps or delegates. If the initial approach to newbies includes first year's free (my personal belief is that strongly subsidised is preferable) membership as evidence of genuine commitment to their professional support then all the better.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Keep posts coming.
It would be good to hear from the union themselves.
..... and its good to hear that people are realising the problems are started in GA and carried up. So we need more representation in the lower levels of GA.
GA companies have it too good for too long. If company x can pay the award then why cant company y???? If they cant afford too then company y can close down and company x can grow.

[Eastwest Loco]

Charlie - the problems and mongrel conditions that are unloaded on the newbies coming into the industry are transmitted right down the line from GA, regional piston, large regional, turbo prop and onto mainline.

These conditions and the associated mindset leaks out to all the rest of the industry. It could be the dude in Reservations who is in danger of having his or her job outsourced to Hyderabad, or could be the LAME who loses his job to Hoo Flung Dung in Beijing.

This carries on down the line to IT specialists - 2 Indian firms do the IT work for QF now.

Unions are generally useless in this day and time, but what you guys and girls do are the ONLY indespensable part of the indusrtry. What occurs at your coalface impacts everything below right down through engineering, cabin crew, traffic staff, reservations and right down the food chain to us Travel Agents.

Without you they are Edward the Kangaroo - Roo Ted.

It is time to chuck out '89 - shizen happens and produce a front that will overcome the companies ripping a the heart of the industry for short term gain.

There is still enough in this wonderful industry for all of us.

Best all

EWL

[Keg]

What's the establishment for the RAAF these days PAFie? About 500-600? How many of those are available having completed their ROSO- or whatever they're calling it this year? How many of those who are available having completed their ROSO are 'current' and/or 'suitable'?

I reckon we're down to about half of that 5-600. That meets about half of DJs current establishment with only the remaining 300 for DJ, 2500 QF drivers, and 500(?) J* drivers to go. :ok:

[019360]

EWL....the thing is about '89 is that it around about marks the difference between a world where there were fully staffed Flight Service Units everywhere...I remember DPO fondly....an well funded very high standard domestic and internional regulatory system, and some great airlines. And, at least from the pilot perspective, a well funded union (AFAP) whose VP Technical could raise hell and get listened to when something bad (e.g. Dick Smith) was happening.

As for the rest of the baggage from that time....well I regularly step over stuff on the footpath....I guess I can keep managing that simple task.

[Eastwest Loco]

019360 - You cold not be more correct.

"89 before the meltdown was indeed an happy hunting ground for us all.Good wages - great Airlines and healthy competition despite the alliance between Fats and Bodgie that stalled deregulation so the self lubricating female body part could buy out East West by stealth. All history now.

there is a lot of dookie from that time, but it is held to heart for all the wrong reasons by many.

Eyes are needed back on the ball.

It has all changed and not for the better.

ps: The FSU guys were requested to go have a coffee break on quite a few occasions when an "under the weather" approach was required. They did as requested.

Top bunch of blokes.

You would not like the look of the DPO tower now - top ripped right out of it.

Bad.

EWL

[fistfokker]

ITCZ, great post, good points all round. I concur.
I do agree that free membership is not on but I would support a move from the AFAP to offer a reduced percentage from GA pilot members. Anyone that expects/wants something that is in their own interest, for nothing, is not worth having as a member. However a membership fee that is more aligned to one's earnings, is well worth considering.

[wrongwayaround]

Somethings gonna give soon...
O.K lets look at Australian aviation from a distance. Things come and go in waves, and usually have 10 - 15 year lapses.
If people in AIPA and AFAP can't smell the fart already... then they must be pretty stupid. Read these forums. All we're hearing are terms like 'T&Cs'... 'EBA'... 'Pilot Shortage'... I'm now reading about pilots taking action; who are prepared to take matters into their own hands.
IMHO, the balls have been bowled but the pins haven't dropped. Howard, I'm backing you up mate.
If it wasn't for us pilots, there wouldn't even be an industry. We are the backbone. Based on this small fact, no matter how much time or money or energy it takes, we should and could keep pushing the fact that we can take action, and nowdays hopefully some of these idiots realize the power we potentially have. I'm so excited about what's going to happen in the next few years.
WWA :ok:

[019360]

EWL et al....
How many times did we request the cross wind component at DPO....answer, "What is your limit".....Reply....."22 kts".....answer, "Crosswind is 22 kts".....
Hmmmm.....different times indeed

[Over and gout]

Yes.....the AFAP union has done a great job of negotiating an award for GA pilots which according to their published GA award in some cases is LESS than minimum wage...
Really inspirational stuff...you can make alot more working as a garbologist

[Charliethewonderdog]

Yes.....the AFAP union has done a great job of negotiating an award for GA pilots which according to their published GA award in some cases is LESS than minimum wage...
Really inspirational stuff...you can make alot more working as a garbologist

THe AFAP dont OWN the award. IDIOT. US PILOTS own it.

[Pinky the pilot]

Yes.....the AFAP union has done a great job of negotiating an award for GA pilots which according to their published GA award in some cases is LESS than minimum wage...


Really?! :eek: Would you care to put up a post detailing the cases to which you refer?

This is a serious question.

[Over and gout]

yeh

On their website.

Pilot's GA award Section 32 - Minimum Salaries.

Clause 32.2.1 Table 2 First Officers/second pilots.

Single Engine UTBNI 1360kg Base Salary $24537


According to the DOCEP website, the minimum wage is $26228 per annum