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VeeAny
22nd Mar 2007, 19:50
A question put to me earlier by a friend of mine, pre his IR test.
You are on an ILS DME approach, you then lose your glideslope, Do you go round or do you continue Loc only ?
3 people asked (me one of them) , 3 different answers came out.
LEGALLY where can the answer be found ?
What is the correct answer ?
V.

FredFri
22nd Mar 2007, 20:27
The answer depends on the situational awareness and skill of the pilot, for a beginner I would say that the safe option is to go around.

Provided you're skilled enough and the "loc" (or "loc+dme") approach is described on the chart you're using, you can continue this "downgraded" approach (without descending lower than the correct MDH/A of course!).

Gomer Pylot
22nd Mar 2007, 22:17
There is real world, and there is checkride. Real world, unless I'm very low on fuel, I'm going missed, get clearance for another approach, rebrief for the new approach, and then fly it. For a checkride, or if I'm really worried about fuel (flying a 412), then I may continue, depending on the weather, my situational awareness, my confidence in my SIC, and many other factors. It's certainly legal to continue, using the localizer minima, and I don't think that is spelled out anywhere. Whatever is not prohibited is legal, at least in the US, and as long as you have a clearance for an approach and don't descend below the minimum altitude for the approach, and can fix the MAP properly, then you're legal to fly the approach. Legal and safe are not necessarily the same, however, so I would prefer to rebrief and start the approach over. I don't think it's possible for the examiner to fail the applicant for doing this, nor do I think he should be failed for continuing, assuming no minima were broken.

paco
23rd Mar 2007, 00:12
I would continue because as a professional I've thought about this in the slack time on the way in and have the plate ready. Do not assume that you are going to get in on the first run! It depends also on the country you're in - in Canada, they would be very much looking for a real world approach, even on a check ride. In an airline, the commercial department will love you if you keep overshooting and unnecessarily wasting fuel.

phil

SASless
23rd Mar 2007, 03:48
An Air Methods EMS crew reverted to a Localizer approach at Bluefield, West Virginia once upon a time. The approach at that time was very unusual in that it did not have a locator outer marker (LOM) and relied upon radar vectoring.

The crew distinctly asked ATC for a vector that would take them well outside the glide slope interception point but for some reason still found themselves unable to obtain the glide slope indication following an early turn-in vector by ATC.

They probably assumed an instrument or system failure and proceeded with the Localizer approach.

The hit a mountain on the far side of the airport at approximately the MDA and killed all four aboard the Bell 412.

There were a host of other issues surrounding that crash that went unremarked about during the investigation thus one cannot put it down to a "simple" crew failure.

The point to be remembered.....if you do not know without doubt why you have no glide slope.....GO AROUND! Do so early...do so whenever any ambiguity occurs. No one got killed climbing away from the ground and returning for another approach. Damn the commercial department....it is your hide that will be plastered to the Smoke House Door if you encounter the Earth at a most in-opportune time.

The DME was not in the "Hold" position as it should have been if they had been using the on-field Vortac for DME mileage readouts and the Loran/GPS was not set to the airfield coordinates for assistance in Situational Awareness. The aircraft was the company spare which had been flown in by the Corporate Check Airman. The Crew had done a bag drag from their normal duty aircraft to the spare and departed on a flight they had turned down earlier in the day due to the inclement weather. With the Check Airman on site, they may have felt pressured to make the IFR flight despite having refused earlier.

The Captain of the aircraft was the Base Manager, Training Captain, and Safety Officer.

BigKahuna
23rd Mar 2007, 05:27
To go around or not???? There is no correct single answer to your question, it depends where you are on the approach. Always ask you self two things: 1. Where am I? (requires good SA) 2. Where am I safe? (i.e. min safe alt, step down alt, etc.)

Back to your question. As a professional IFR pilot, of course you briefed this eventuality in your approach brief. (it is alway easier to make this decision prior to starting the appoach, that is why it is good to pre-brief loss of glide slope so your crew is clear on the plan of action.)

If you are at or above a step down altitude for the segement of the LOC ONLY approach then either level off or descend to the appropriate altitude and continue with the LOC ONLY. If you are below the level of step down altitude (for the segment being flown) then immediately initiate a climb to a safe altitude. From there you can determine if the approach is still effective and determine the best course of action.

If you have not pre-briefed the loss of glideslope event, then it may be best to just initiate a climb, or level at a safe altitude, and commence the missed approach. But... remember that obstacle clearance for the missed approach segment is predicated on commencing the missed approach AT THE MISSED APPOACH POINT. Ergo it is best to fly the LOC to that point (at a safe altitude) and commence the missed approach from there. Of course if at any time ATC puts you on a vector they are now responsible for your obstacle clearance.

When in doubt go into the missed, re-brief and try it again. Better to be a little late, burn more gas, and bring the aricraft, crew & pax home safe then try to be the hero in the Chief Pilots eyes. The last thing that you should be thinking about after you have had an EQUIPMENT FAILURE is what the Chief Pilot is going to say.

800
23rd Mar 2007, 06:40
Looking at the quote, there is only one answer.

You are on an ILS DME approach, you then lose your glideslope,You are on the approach and then loose your glideslope. This indicates that you have already established the approach and the aid (either on the ground or in the aircraft) has become unservicable OR is out of tollerance. This then requires a missed approach. As mentioned previously; maintain safe height and fly to the missed approach point (fix) prior to starting the missed approach procedure. But, you would already know all that, because that is what you briefed in your approach brief - didn't you!:eek:
800

paco
23rd Mar 2007, 08:45
Good points, Bigkahuna and 800 - of course, it isn't entirely black and white - I was trying to make the point that the possibility should have been thought about first - but not very clearly! Of course, if you are unsure, go around, and remember that the holding pattern is your friend while you get your head clear. There is a fine line between keeping the company happy and staying alive, and you should always of course opt for the latter!

phil

Hedski
23rd Mar 2007, 09:27
In JAA land, presumably other authorities would be similar, if you go-around once the failure occurs you are safely dealing with the issue and reducing the risk involved by getting away from mother earth. This would give you time to choose a suitable non-precision approach and position and brief appropriately. I would be very surprised if an examiner could fail a candidate for choosing the apparent safe option, I could be wrong and standby to be corrected.:cool:
Certainly on my OPC's if you are half scale or more on either LOC or GS then it's an immediate go-around. Therefore if either failed half-way down the approach I would treat this in the same manner. After all when the glideslope fails it defaults past half-scale deflection. I would therefore make the same correction as if I had drifted past half-scale by inaccurate flying. The result would of course be the same: go-around.
This hopefully will help, just my thoughts on the subject.
Good luck to the candidate in question.:ok:
H

PS: Vee, do I know them?:}

spinwing
23rd Mar 2007, 12:50
Mmmmm......

If your approach plate has printed on it "Loc Out Minima" and you have briefed for that in the event of a GS failure ABOVE the Localiser minima you may continue the approach to the "Loc Only" minima. That is after all why those minima are included in the ILS approach plate.

If you only have minima for the ILS approach and the GS fails then you MUST fly the missed approach procedure if at the time of the failure you are in IMC .... obviously if you are in VMC you may continue the approach visually.

It is probably wise to be aware that you can convert that approach .... there is an arguement to be made that in a helicopter unless you are carrying alot of alternate fuel you might be putting an aircraft at risk by going missed approach unneccesarily and end up having to declare a fuel emergency. I know it should not happen but the realities mean it may (ie say flying IMC in a Bk117 which ain't got the best endurance in the world?).

Cheers :hmm:

check
23rd Mar 2007, 16:52
I sat an Instrument Rating test in India many years ago. The glide slope was lost and I went around, continued with the test. During the debrief the examiner asked if I had considered converting the the approach to a localiser only approach. It was my first ever rating so I was rather nervous and the thought never crossed my mind. I of course replied no and was told that both going around or converting the approach were correct if the localiser only was listed and briefed.

The examiner was from the Dutch RLD.

I believe therefore you can switch if briefing carried out during initial brief.

IHL
24th Mar 2007, 03:14
Like most aviation answers, it depends.

Before starting the approach you should have an idea of what the weather is.

If the approach has a localizer only minimum-which most do then( assuming the ILS has been properly tuned and identified and you don't have a VOR frequency tuned in -which has happened, more than once): check the locailizer flag, check the F/O HSI if no flags then continue to loaclizer only minimums. IF BELOW LOCALIZER ONLY MINIMUMS then a missed approach must be executed.

On ILS approaches I brief the ILS DH and the LOC only MDA or NDB which ever may apply, with the expectation of continuing on to LOC minimums if the GS is lost.

One airport I flew into regularly had seasonal problems with the GS when in the spring the snow melted during the daytime and then the water froze at night causing havok with the GS transmitter.

In any event its no big deal-unless the weather is 200 with an RVR of 1200 ft (400 METERS).

ATCO2
25th Mar 2007, 18:25
Pilots,

When executing ILS/DME approach, DME because there are no markers, what do you pilots intend to do in case of DME failure. Will you go around immediately or you will continue ILS approach till DA/H?

Regards,

Gomer Pylot
25th Mar 2007, 18:29
Not the same thing. I would continue, because DME is not required for an ILS approach. A glideslope is required.

FredFri
25th Mar 2007, 19:15
DME is not required for an ILS approachI wouldn't be so affirmative, me thinks it depends on the chart and what's written on.

Also for the "legal" point of view I believe that you need three things for a approach to be a precision approach :
- axis indication (loc)
- slope indication (glide)
- and a distance information "with an accuracy of at least +/- 0.5 NM"
This indication had been for long provided by the markers which tend to become "old stuff", the newer and more precise DME is now the norm.

For the reference, it should be somewhere in the ICAO Publications (document 8168 - Procedures for Air Navigation Services: Aircraft Operations - Volume II: Construction of Visual and Instrument Flight Procedures)


And yes Gomer, I know I didn't answer what shall be done in the situation described :E

Gomer Pylot
25th Mar 2007, 20:04
In the US, the only use for DME in conjunction with an ILS approach is to fix the OM, if necessary for that. Subsequently, it is only for situational awareness. The MAP is DA, on the GS. If you have already fixed the OM on the approach, then you have no further legal need for DME. It could be useful under many circumstances, but it's not required. What is legal across the pond I don't know.

IHL
26th Mar 2007, 02:58
FredFri:

There is no distance (DME) requirement for ILS approaches in Canada.
The Middle and Outer Marker beacons has been decomissioned [here] for over 10 years.

The majority of ILS approaches don't have DME, but the majority do have an NDB as the Final Approach Fix (FAF)-usually about 4.5 to 5 nm from the threshold.

A decent to localizer ONLY minimums (in the event of GS failure) would be done on timing from the FAF, i.e.cross the beacon start the time , decend down to the LOC MDA, wait for the timing which corresponds to your ground speed, if nothing is seen at the end of time-Missed Approach.

Some ILS approaches have no fixes but require RADAR vectors to determine the IB Course , there are a couple of examples of these at YYZ .

FredFri
26th Mar 2007, 05:59
the majority do have an NDB as the Final Approach Fix (FAF)-usually about 4.5 to 5 nm from the thresholdI forgot to mention it but of course the NDB provides the "accurate distance information" while you're on final approach.

Looking at many ILS approach charts, you'll find that somewhere between 4 and 5 nm from threshold there is an OM or a DME info or a NDB.
Anything that complies with the accuracy needed by the ICAO definition of a precision approach (I gave the reference to show it's not only a view from this side of the pond;)).

There may be ILS approaches without that info on final but if there are I would guess that the DH must be higher than the usual 200ft.

JimEli
26th Mar 2007, 17:53
:= legally speaking, you were cleared to execute the ils not the loc approach.

SASless
26th Mar 2007, 20:46
How many of us brief the missed approach procedures prior to the start of the approach as a standard procedure?

How many of us begin an approach fully prepared physically....mentally....to do that missed approach or do we happily trundle down the approach with a mindset that we shall always break out and land?

spinwing
26th Mar 2007, 22:40
Jim,......

Once you are cleared for the "ILS Approach" and that approach contains "GS out" minima (ie LOC Appr.) you are also cleared if required to execute that approach as it is published .... the GS out part IS part of the published approach and is thus legal.

Cheers ;)

IHL
27th Mar 2007, 01:29
FredFri:

I was mistaken. I checked the approaches for YYZ (Toronto-Canada's busiest).
They state" RNAV or RADAR Required", but the still have and NDB as a FAF.

IHL

IntheTin
27th Mar 2007, 20:34
Not sure which country we are talking about here but in the US,
If while doing an ILS approach you lose the glide slope, you can REQUEST the Localizer approach. You may not get permission from approach in time so you must execute a go-around and set up for the Localizer approach.

paco
27th Mar 2007, 22:09
Interesting, that, Inthetin - the original question was about UK/JAA

Phil

zebedee
27th Mar 2007, 22:52
Fred is right - read the plate. For example:
EGCC
EGPA
I don't have time to elaborate, but I know you guys are smart enough to know that Gomer is also right. He shouldnt be, but he is.
Bottom line?
The people in your aircraft.
Zeb

Francis Frogbound
28th Mar 2007, 12:24
SASless;

Right as usual. Most of us stroll down the approach expecting the lights to be there to greet us. However, suppose the fixed wing ahead bursts a couple of tyres (it's happened to me), a runway incursion happens or an approach ban comes in due to a rapid deterioration. To not know, and properly brief on the go-around and alternative approaches is highly irresponsible (LOC only procedures are usually on the charts). I fly fixed wing as well as rotary and it seems that the fixed wing mindset is very different to rotary. I flew on a line check recently and the chap checking me seemed surprised that not only were all the plates for our destination out of the book, but so were those for our diversion, in my fixed wing role that is SOP, in a helicopter it seems that many pilots only bother with the plate for the approach they are about to fly.

Once saw a fantastic catch out in the simulator. No flight director approach. The glide slope off flag on the HSI was hidden behind the needle when it was central. The crew thought that they had flown a perfect ILS until the heights didn't quite add up, they flew into the ground on the go round.

IHL
28th Mar 2007, 17:12
What about approach briefings?
They should be clear, concise and to the point covering : Effective date, approach procedure, frequency/radio set up as required, , courses , altitudes, procedure turn [if required] MDA/DH, where to find the runway if its not alligned with the IB track, any special notes and missed approach procedure. I like to do a quick review of the Missed approach procedure while IB to the FAF.

Some guys do briefings that go on and on and on and on..., to the point that it becomes meaninglessly mind numbing

MarcK
28th Mar 2007, 20:15
"If while doing an ILS approach you lose the glide slope, you can REQUEST the Localizer approach. You may not get permission from approach in time so you must execute a go-around and set up for the Localizer approach"

Not true. If the LOC minima are on the ILS plate, the approach is still technically an "ILS" approach even if you don't use the GS. If there are no LOC minima on the plate you need to request a different approach or go-around.

cl12pv2s
28th Mar 2007, 22:53
Agree with MarcK and others! Bottom line is:

You have been cleared for all the procedures on the plate in front of you (and any NOTAM'd amendments). You don't need to request to change to localiser minimums. You can just do it. However, there may be 100 other reasons why you wouldn't.

The main reason touches on the stabilised approach concept with respect to 'workload'. If switching requires a deviation from approach brief, major level changes or aircraft configuration changes (climbs, flaps, power, attitude, speed), navaid switching, chart and plate checking, or any other procedure which increases workload significantly, then I would go-around.

By that statement then, it depends on so many factors. One pilot might elect to go around, another might elect to switch. No correct answer.

Below are a number of observations on this thread so far.

Paco said:
In an airline, the commercial department will love you if you keep overshooting and unnecessarily wasting fuel.

Yes this might be the case in some airlines. In others though, you would be definitely not allowed to continue (depending on where you are in the approach). This relates to the 'stabilised approach' concept, where, with loss of glideslope beyond a certain altitude (or FAF) renders you un-stabilised. Not so much an issue with helos, but definitely in the FW world.

SASless: I don't understand how GS-failure caused the crash you describe in post #5. You do bring up a point though. In US if you inform that you are going to be doing a coupled approach, the controller should put you 2 miles outside the approach gate.

BigKahuna said:

There is no correct single answer to your question, it depends where you are on the approach.

I perfectly agree. It also depends on the complexity of the LOC-only approach and how well you know it off by heart. At the point of GS loss, you MUST be sure that you are above the non-precision minimums. If there is any doubt, I would go-around immediately. This could happen where the non-precision approach (LOC-only) is a complex step down approach.

800 said:

This indicates that you have already established the approach and the aid (either on the ground or in the aircraft) has become unserviceable OR is out of tolerance. This then requires a missed approach.

Nope, because by going Loc-only, you are flying a procedure which does not require any of the 'unserviceable parts'. Remember the GS is on a totally separate receiving unit to the VOR / Loc system.

Hedski said:
I would be very surprised if an examiner could fail a candidate for choosing the apparent safe option,

Sometimes going around is not the safe option. This might be your last chance to get in, before the weather is forecasted to close in. You might be fuel critical. Again, a good examiner will discuss things here. He might fail a candidate for going around, thus not showing knowledge of all the options and regulations. (See Spinwing's last paragraph.)

Particularly in helicopters, sometimes the safer option (if available) is to simply couple everything up and bring the speed back and deal with the weather. With our range and endurance, go-arounds and alternates might not look so rosey.

Therefore if either failed half-way down the approach I would treat this in the same manner.

If you are half scale above the glideslope, you must discontinue using the GS for vertical navigation, due to the possibility of false glideslopes. However, this does not mean you cannot change to loc-only minimums.

If you are half scale below glideslope, then I would go around for sure.

ATCO2 asks:
When executing ILS/DME approach, DME because there are no markers, what do you pilots intend to do in case of DME failure. Will you go around immediately or you will continue ILS approach till DA/H?

I agree with Gomer here. The DME is not required for execution of the ILS approach. It is for identification of the FAF (intercept point) as an altimeter check height. It is also for the non-precision portion. So continue.

IHL said:
but the majority do have an NDB as the Final Approach Fix (FAF)-usually about 4.5 to 5 nm from the threshold.

Nope, just depends where you are! REMEMBER, the presence of NDB or some other marker at the FAF is purely for a non-precision approach procedure (LOC-only or some other NP approach). The FAF for an ILS is the point of intercept at the particular altitude. The FAF is not part of the ILS system. This is seen by the different types of ILSs which don’t have any marker at the FAF. (e.g. Radar vectored, ILS/DME)

A decent to localizer ONLY minimums (in the event of GS failure) would be done on timing from the FAF, i.e.cross the beacon start the time

This is not on every approach. In fact, timing is only used when the FAF is marked by station passage over a beacon. If there is a beacon at the MAP or MAP is defined by DME, then of course you won't be timing.

SASless:
How many of us brief the missed approach procedures prior to the start of the approach as a standard procedure?

Every time. Or at least the first part of it, then NFP will guide through rest!

IHL said:
Some guys do briefings that go on and on and on and on...,

SOPs help here greatly. Can cut a great deal out.

Well, that passed the time.

Comments welcome.

cl12pv2s

IHL
29th Mar 2007, 19:59
cl12pv2s

The FAF for an ILS is the point of intercept at the particular altitude. The FAF is not part of the ILS system.

I don't quite agree. You are describing the final approach segment not the FAF.

This is taken from Transport Canada's TP308, design criteria, I'm sure it conforms-in some way -to ICAO.

SECTION 3. ILS CATEGORY 1 FINAL APPROACH
930. FINAL APPROACH SEGMENT

The final approach segment shall begin at the point where the glide slope is intercepted and descent to the authorized decision height (DH) begins. This point should be coincidental with a designated FAFassociated with the non-precision portion of the approach. At locations where it is not possible for the point of glide slope intercept to coincide with a designated FAF, the point of glide slope interception shall be located prior to the FAF.

Gomer Pylot
30th Mar 2007, 02:34
Technically, the final approach segment of a precision approach begins at the Final Approach Point, I believe.

cl12pv2s
30th Mar 2007, 03:28
IHL / Gomer,
Thanks for the reference.

My point was from a pratical navigational point of view, rather than a regulatory on.

The FAP is indeed a position where the Final Approach Segment starts. This final approach segment is more for a regulatory standpoint, in so far as it provides a point for RVR minimums, company SOPs etc..etc..

For an ILS, it is not required in order to determine MAP as an marker beacon (as IHL was talking about) does for a LOC-only approach.

As in the TC requirement states, "This point should be coincidental with a designated FAF associated with the non-precision portion of the approach." I presume these points are conicidental to reduce confusion. Not sure.

cl12pv2s

Gomer Pylot
30th Mar 2007, 14:10
If the FAP and the FAF are coincident, you can start your time at the FAF and revert to a nonprecision approach if the GS subsequently fails. Personally, I don't like to do that, and would do it only if I were forced to by circumstances, but it's legal. I've had check pilots ask me why I didn't start the timer at the OM, and my reply is that it does me no good, it's just something else to distract me, because I'm not going to continue the approach if the GS fails. Losing the GS means something has failed, and I don't have time to do the troubleshooting while flying the approach. I prefer to climb, call approach, and then figure out what happened and what I have left, before starting another approach. But that's just my personal attitude, not a regulation. I haven't been failed on a checkride for this, I just think they wanted to know what I was doing and why.

AuxHyd
30th Mar 2007, 17:11
Some useful insights:

http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/2001/may/28-30.pdf

paco
31st Mar 2007, 01:33
cv12pv2s -
Just to make things clear to all - my comments were not meant to imply that you should take note of the commercial department rather than the FSO, but even the authorities when I did my very first IR (FW) recognised that the flight should be regarded as a public transport flight and therefore to be conducted "expeditiously". The examiner is therefore looking at you as if you were in a commercial company, and expects you to make big boys' decisions, including whether the flight should take place or not in the prevailing weather (it's not just an instrument rating!). Naturally, safety comes first, but someone who was unnecessarily taking the safe approach and prolonging events (reading between the lines) would be looked at with some concern when it comes to being let loose on the public.

I would still be inclined to carry on if I my situational awareness was good, I was in control, there was no reason to expect an untoward event, the workload was light, etc. Anything that distracts you from the job in hand - well, go around!

As for briefings - I must say that I prefer to keep them as minimal and brief as possible. To my mind, two pilots with similar training, company culture, etc should be pretty near on the same page anyway and take similar action in similar circumstances. A good one in the slack time before an approach, to ensure that all the plates are out and of the same revision, what the weather allows you to do and what to do if the ILS goes out are all fair game, but after that I think anything more verges on being a flight safety hazard when the workload is high.

Phil

212man
31st Mar 2007, 12:15
"the flight should be regarded as a public transport flight and therefore to be conducted 'expeditiously'".
Quite: it's the standard TRE brief to OPC/LPC candidates.

I've been following the thread with curiosity and am surprised by the comments to the effect that a go around must be carried out. If pre-briefed and above step down altitude (which you will be on a glideslope) and you have started your clock etc (if required at the point of G/S failure), convert to LLZ aproach. If no clue what the LLZ aproach MDA and MAPt are, or where you are, go around. Simple. CDF.

If there is no LLZ only approach, go around. Simple. CDF.

It's not rocket science! Remember; these procedures were designed for fixed wing pilots, so they can't be that difficult;)

PS. If anyone can find a UK AIP, ICAO annex 6, Pans Ops 8168, JAR OPS-3 reference etc etc, please quote it: buggered if I can find one!

PPS. AuxHyd, that is a well known incident which highlights the importance of General SA and you will find several videos on line about it. Here's a question (general): "how do you conduct your OM check height check?" Do you:

a) wait for the check altitude and say "yes xxxx ft and passing 4d, OM etc"
b) wait for the check altitude range and say "OM, 4d etc, and our passing altitude is xxxx ft"

Think about it, and determine which is the optimal method! (answer a:ok: )

IHL
31st Mar 2007, 16:58
CAPT :

I agree with you about keeping approach briefings brief. The majority-I'll guess 99.9% - of pilots in 2 crew operations have the same training and the same expectations when doing approaches.

I fly both fixed and rotary. In the Fixed wing we do the approach briefing prior to decent approximately 75-80 NM miles back, in RW world its done usually at about 30 NM when in the terminal area.

It often happens in the FW world that when we're swithced over from Centre to Terminal they change the runway and then we have to rush the briefing and set up for the new runway. That always ticks me off.

212 Man: When over the OM/beacon. I call beacon crossing, beacon crossing altitude xxxx feet on glide slope or (ABV-BLO), check the flags on the HSI and report no flags.

It is also prudent to verify the localizer with the NDB track to preclude false loc capture. When using AP FD I don't arm the approach until within 8 degrees of the LOC track as displayed on the ADF.

212man
1st Apr 2007, 05:55
IHL, that's my point entirely: surely you should announce what range you are when you get to beacon/dme crossing height, not what height you are when you get to the range? :confused: One of the primary purposes of the check is to confirm serviceability of the glideslope (and to a lesser extent, the correct lobe) and the safest way to do this is as I describe.

The NZ and Guam incident/accident would tend to support this.:(

interpol1977
16th Apr 2007, 10:34
Another question regarding an ILS approach:

On an ILS when can you descent on the glide path ?

So meaning when you are on base leg, with how much deviation can I start the descent? I know for a VOR approach it is 5 degree either side of the final track..

How is this on the ILS? Full scale deflection is 2,5 degree isn't it? I heard somebody saying 5 degrees as well but think that is incorrect but I can't find it anywhere.. Then there is this protection area of 10 degree each side but that's only for localizer, not for descent.. so if anybody knows the answer to the question...

Thanks in advance!!

Best regards,
Interpol

Gomer Pylot
16th Apr 2007, 14:29
AFAIK, you can descend when 'established' on the localizer. I haven't seen an exact definition of established, but I think you have to at least have the localizer needle off the peg and moving toward the center. I like to have it within a dot of center, but I'm not religious about that, depending on the approach conditions. If ATC is turning me in on a short approach, very near the OM, (or the copilot has drifted more than a dot off :cool: ) I may start the descent sooner, but never without having course guidance from the localizer needle.

SASless
16th Apr 2007, 15:41
I always was taught 1/2 scale deflection having watched it start from full scale deflection. VOR and NDB approaches...once established "on" course. (although I favored the "artillery" technique....that is bracketing the target)

cl12pv2s
16th Apr 2007, 16:37
Established on Course.

ICAO defines “established on course” as being within half full-scale deflection for an ILS or VOR/TACAN/RNAV/GPS procedure and within ± 5° of the required bearing for the NDB. Adherence to the ICAO standard will insure you are within protected airspace when conducting an approach. Therefore, do not consider yourself “established on course” until you are within these limits.

Possibly found in ICAO DOC 8168, but not sure.