Read-back requirements

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Just wondering if it is a requirement to read back a taxi route

eg if instructed to "taxi to holding point alpha 4 runway 19 via charlie, bravo and alpha 4" do I need to read back "holding point alpha 4 runway 19" bit only or should I include the taxiways to take to get there as well?

[chimbu warrior]

Well the AIP states "....only key elements of the following clearances..." and then a few lines later says "...any clearances or instructions to hold short of, enter, land on, conditional line-up on, take-off from, cross, taxi or backtrack on, any runway..."

Looks like some discretion is allowed there, depending upon what you think are key elements. I think the important thing is to have a clear understanding in your own mind of exactly where the controller wants you to go. If in any doubt stop, ask, clarify.

[das Uber Soldat]

actually disregard . :}

[Cloud Cutter]

As it is essential to follow a specific taxi route to avoid hitting other aircraft (in poor vis) these would all be key elements, even if they don't involve a runway. I'd imagine most ground controllers would prompt you for a read back if it wasn't forthcoming.

[Crosshair]

Others may have different experiences, but I haven't had good luck requesting "progressive taxi instructions" from ground controllers at Aussie airports.

What I want is, "Follow Alpha to right on Echo and the GA area will be on your left," or something like that.

A number of times, I've heard something like, "The GA area is over past the fuel bowser." Which I guess I could decode if I were to study a taxiway chart, but it's not the most efficient way to get me there, or even much faster to say.

Archerfield Tower is a prime offender, in my experience.

[Howard Hughes]

You are required to read back any clearance limit, but can't find where it says to read back every taxi way.

To my thinking, I would certainly read back the assigned taxiway for runway entry (if there are multiple options), along with any hold short requirements, as for the other 5 taxi ways to get there, why bother? Unless of course it is low vis operations, as Cloud Clutter has previously pointed out.:ok:

Crosshair, as for getting directions from ground, they may be more forthcoming if you use the correct terminology! Progressive taxi is only available on flight sim as far as I know, try "taxi guidance", sad I know, but that is the way aviation is sometimes...;)

[NIMFLT]

Any holding point specified in a taxi clearance must be readback. The rest is not required.

[Capt Claret]

"taxi to holding point alpha 4 runway 19 via charlie, bravo and alpha 4"

"Alpha 4 via Charlie, Bravo & Alpha"

[Crosshair]

"Progressive taxi" is the officially standard phrase in the United States, and its meaning is pretty clear.

If "taxi guidance" is what they want here, okay with me.

Is there a guidance document that recommends that terminology? I can't find it on the CASA site.

[Howard Hughes]

Apologies Crosshair, I too have it wrong!
AIP ENR 4.3.12 states
A pilot unfamiliar with the areodrome should
"REQUEST DETAILED TAXI INSTRUCTIONS"

Is there a guidance document that recommends that terminology? I can't find it on the CASA site.

There is! Just to confuse us all, its located on the Airservices website, you can access it here. (http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/aip/enr/1_1_1-112.pdf)

Cheers, HH.:ok:

[Crosshair]

Thanks, Howard.

The best instruction I ever got from a tower was:

"XXX, Caution Caution, the tall structure in your 12 o'clock position contains valuable government property."

Which I did not read back completely.

[Howard Hughes]

No worries, I like these kind of threads, they make you think and/or dive for the books/internet!!;)

[flywatcher]

Best clearance I ever got was "Hello XXX, Can't read you properly but you are cleared from wherever you happen to be to wherever you want to go, at whatever height you want to fly at and call when you get a bit closer". Many years ago when things were a bit more relaxed and sanity ruled supreme. This was not in Qland.

[das Uber Soldat]

the few times i've been to moorabin and places like that i've actually been very impressed with them, giving me patient and progressive taxi instructions as I fumble my way around their airports. I guess we all have different experiences.

[Capn Bloggs]

the United States
Where the fark is that? Who cares what they do over there? Ooops, sorry but HERE COMES DICK! RUN FOR COVER!

[Centaurus]

Personally I would like to see a ban on all read-backs in Australian airspace. There is far too much superfluous radio chatter and when you see that at least 50% of that is read backs you can understand why. With modern VHF radio systems that allow crystal clear reception then if a pilot does not understand an ATC transmission he simply asks for a repeat - not a read back just to see if he has got it right or wrong. The current AIP read back requirements have quadrupled over the past 25 years and my guess it is now more a legal arse-covering exercise rather than because something may not have been understood.

[Crosshair]

I have remembered another one:

Tower: "XXX, cleared for takeoff, caution a rabbit at the end of the runway."
XXX: "Cleared for takeoff, roger rabbit."

I know it should have been, "Copy rabbit," but whatever.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Thanks guys, appreciate the input. The reason I asked the question is because 99% of pilots seem to read back everything in a taxi clearance but I can't find where it says in the Jepps you have to do that - all I can find is where it says read back the holding point you're assigned.

Unfortunately sometimes this just clutters up the ground frequency even more, especially when staff shortages lead to combining of ground and ACD frequencies.

I guess at the end of the day chimbu warrior is right, just make sure you've got it clear in your own mind where you're going.

[2b2]

A number of times, I've heard something like, "The GA area is over past the fuel bowser." Which I guess I could decode if I were to study a taxiway chart, but it's not the most efficient way to get me there, or even much faster to say.

Archerfield Tower is a prime offender, in my experience.





probably because experience has shown that to reply "Taxi via "E" then right at "H" then second left at "C" " or something similar, at a GAAP aerodrome, 99% of the time would be met with stunned silence! Some people have trouble finding ANY taxiway.

[Capt Claret]

Sue

Thanks guys, appreciate the input. The reason I asked the question is because 99% of pilots seem to read back everything in a taxi clearance but I can't find where it says in the Jepps you have to do that - all I can find is where it says read back the holding point you're assigned.

99% of pilots read back everything in the oft vain hope of actually capturing the required redback items. Sad really. :ugh:

[bentleg]

99% of pilots read back everything
I agree. It just clutters the airwaves.

Inbound at GAAP many repeat the whole message including report at..... In most cases the only thing that needs to be read back is the runway number. Same thing happening with taxi clearances as discussed in this thread.

[suunto22]

"taxi to holding point alpha 4 runway 19 via charlie, bravo and alpha 4"
"Alpha 4 via Charlie, Bravo & Alpha"
Can i ask why it isn't
Holding Point Aplha 4 via charlie, Bravo & Alpha?
Poth Jep and Aip have this as the phraseology for pilot readback yet most refuse to use "Holding Point"
Every time a checkie or investigator listens to a tape, we get reamed for not getting a readback of "Holding Point".