Ek 346 FTL's ??

[Jackson Bombay]

EK 346. Rpt 02:10
DXB-KUL 03:10 14:15 BLK 7h05
KUL-CGK 15:25 16:25 BLK 2h00
Total BLK 9h05 FDP 11h15
FDPMaxNoFact : 10h15
FDPAugmentedExtra1 : 11h16
All times Local
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Could somebody please explain to me how you can do this trip WITH-OUT writing a discretion report.
The max FDP (2 crew, 2 sectors, acclim) at that time is 10h15.
The actual FDP is 11h15, so they put 3 crew on it.
Total block is 9h05 so you divide this by 9 (rest in seat) to give an extension of 1hr and 1 min.
This means Max FDP (3 crew, 2 sectors) is now 10h15 +1h01 =11h16
(FDP is 11h15)
This means if you are 1 minute late you are in discretion.
Ok the turn in KUL goes well and you land CGK a bit early, but to extend duty with 3 crew you need 3 hours INFLIGHT rest each.
My understanding of "Inflight" is Blocks Off to Block On. I have NEVER managed to get all 3 crew on this flight to get 3 hours each because actual block time has always been less than 9hr’s.
So as I see it, if you’re late by more than 1 minute it is a discretion report and if you are early and Actual block time is less than 9hr’s it’s a discretion report.
Should they really roster an 11h15, two sector night duty, reporting at 0210 local where nearly every flight is in discretion? Is this safe?
I know I feel GREAT flying in CGK at 16.25 local (CB’s, Terrain, Traffic, ATC vectors etc.) at least 24 hr’s after my last proper rest.
Either these reports are not getting to the GCAA or people are not writing them.
JB

[QNH1013]

Kamelf Hucker,

Read your post intensely following how the rest was worked out. Fully agree on how those tough sectors go. Your last line just craked me up though. What else to do, you just got to laugh :}

[Jackson Bombay]

Thanks fella's,
But I still cannot understand how you can extend FDP if the Actual Total block time is less than 9hrs.

My last one was DXB-KUL 6h50 and then KUL-CGK 2h05 total 8h55 so there is no way each of us had 3h each, no matter who gets out of whatever seat whenever.

Even if the Actual Total block time is more than 9hrs, not sure how you can get three hours each without musical chairs and "resting" as you are changing seats. This is Not safe rostering.

Plus it’s always late due 100+ maids connecting from JED flight that is due in at midnight (plus 30mins holding). The crew need to be acclimatised but when you ask they say “urrrhh dunno” if they speak English, or just nod if they don’t.

The numbers seem too perfect for this flight when you consider DXB-KUL 342’s flight time is 7h15 not 7h05. Is it further during the day?

If the gcaa receive enough discretion reports then hopefully Ek will have to change this flt. It should stop in Kul and for all the golfers there is the direct CGK that leaves at a decent time. So get writing!

Ever hopeful
JB

[uplock]

Point has been made many times to the company why not publish some simple guidelines that do not need a legal team to interpret?

Why not clearly publish on the operating Flight Plan you are operating a flight under such and such variation?

Call me a skeptic but I believe this is a deliberate oversight
There have been many pairings where the FTLs have been hazed over , and it would take the company months and months and some examples up to a year before a change was implemented . pairings that were ignored for months DXB-SEZ-DXB (3 guys 1 day), Dubai- Moscow-Dubai (2 guys 1 day) Seoul-Dubai (2 guys)

Wishy Whashy replies from above do not help . The Claytons rules we have for sign on and duty where you are performing legal duties for the flight hours before your legal sign on dictate that common sense prevail rather than following the Soft / Hard rule that is often quoted( what ever the blazes that is)

Common sense dictates that if I look like going into discretion then check with all crew to see if they are OK with this rather than the FOM which gives the Captain the authority to make the decision with out consulting his off sider.
FOM and FTLs are such a dogs dinner these days. The legal boys could have a field day if they chose.

[BIKKERDENNAH]

EK 346

REP DXB 0215 ARR JAKARTA 1325 Dxb TIME TOTAL FDP 11hrs 10 mins

MAX FDP 0215 start 10hrs 15mins

cannot use plus 30 min variation so need 3rd pilot.

So here is how it goes.

Total flight time DXB KUL 06 hrs 55mins 3rd pilot used for both rest periods.

Dep DXB 0315 P2 takes rest at 0330 for 3 hours P3 in RHS .

P2 returns 0630 P3 now in LHS and P1 takes rest 0635 for 3 hours until 0935 .

Scheduled on blocks time is 1010 DXB time allow 5 mins taxi in to stand. so land at 1005. So P1 now back in LHS at 0935, 5 mins before top descent. Not ideal considering briefings and gaining SA are now required SO probably briefing in the descent!!!!!:=

P3 now only deadheading for remainder of flight to JAKARTA.

Now then, applying the Extension IF and only if 3 hours rest can be properly given to the crew remember this has only to be planned!!! So roster is good enough!!There are TWO ways this can be done 1) is as long as the max FDP does not exceed 15 hours ,16 for cabin crew, rest can be taken on a SEAT and ONE THIRD of the total rest period can be used in this case 6 hours divided by 3 equals 2 hours.However heres the RULE OF THUMB method 2) Total block hours equals 9 hours divided by 9 equals 1 hour of extension. Which one of the two is the preferred method for the company!!!!! Beyond 15 hours up to 18hours 19 for Cabin crew as long as a bunk is provided one half of total rest taken can be used to extend FDP.

On return to DXB only 2 crew.

2 NIGHT jakarta.
Local Report 2100 not an issue you just fall into the up to 18 or over 30 hours rest category Not acclimatized if 2 day JAKARTA MAX FDP is 12 hours and 15mins. Rostered FDP is 11hours 25 mins so in essence 2 night Jakarta you need to be 50 mins late leaving jakarta before discretion!!

However 3 NIGHT jakarta

You have had 3 local nights more than 2hour time zones so you are now ACCLIMATIZED. So the normal ACC table A applies. Local time of report 2100 LOCAL so Max FDP is 11hours 15 mins but hang on rostered FDP is 11 hours and 25 mins. ANNEX 1 variation plus 30 mins to the rescue!! As long as a sector does not exceed 7 and half hours you can extend FDP by 30 mins. So now MAX FDP 11 hours 55 mins.PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!:ok:

So in summary lets see where we stand.

EX DUBAI.

APPLY RULE OF THUMB. 9blockhrs /9 equals 1 hour extension that is 10 h 15 min plus 1 equals 11h15min. Planned FDP DXB CGK 11h 10 min so 5 mins late you are definately into discretion:D but are you .

APPLY boxed calculation, 6 hours rest / 3 equals 2 hours extension!!! now your max FDP is 12 h 15 mins so now if you use this calculation you can leave up to 1 hr 5 mins before you are into discretion.

Now then which do you think the company would be using let me see:sad:

Now EX CGK

2 night not acclimatized less than 18 hrs more than 30 hrs rest

MAX FDP 12 hr 10mins ,rostered FDP 11 hrs 25 mins. So if you are late ex CGK by more than 50 mins you are into discretion.

3 night CGK acclimatized so MAX FDP 2100 rep is 11 hrs 15mins plus 30min variation is 11 hrs 45 mins. Rostered FDP 11 hrs 25 mins so you need to be late by 20 mins EX CGK before discretion.:ugh:

Legally is the company covered YES.

Is it safe:\ well we all know the answer to that one!!:= JUST MAKE DAMN SURE THOSE DISCRETION REPORTS ARE PUT IN!!:(

in real life is this really going to happen you get airborne lets say 10 mins after push. It will be tight as a ducks arse or not possible at all with the seasonal tailwinds we have at the moment!! On average max 2hrs 45 mins is what you can squeeze out for rest!!

So if we do not have the required rest inflight of 3 hours should we be using the extension of flight time with 3rd crew. ABSOLUTELY NOT You are not legal to do so . Is Emirates aware of this, OF COURSE!! Then why the 3rd pilot, FOR SHOW!! and a helping hand BUT you are still not legal to apply extension if you do not get 3 hours!!

So what to do!! Well because we are an unrepresented pilot body not many people are going to stick thier necks out and get off the airplane in KUL. Remember this is now your only legal option to use discretion up to a max of 2 hrs on the first sector then up to 3 if you choose to go on as long as the captain and company submit a report to the GCAA i think within 10 days!!

So if you are MAN enough and decide no discretion for you today we are getting off in KUL :D :D :D

IF not get those pens out and make damn sure those discretion reports go in!! At this time of year it should be DAILY!!:ok:

[Jackson Bombay]

"It is unnecessary for the relieving crewmember to rest in between the times relief is provided for other crew members". Fom ch21 p28.
What the ****??
So if there are 3 crew only 2 need the 3hrs?
Why give a rule of thumb of total block divided by 9 then?
I use the trip/turn/layover info as published on CRS for bidding, for my FTL data. Crewing don’t know when you ask them.
It gives any variation if used and max FDP extra 1 or 2 plus tells us we actually become acclimatized in Sydney (EK418/9) after the shuttle so that makes us feel less tired on the 10h15 (2 crew) night duty back to BKK!!!!
They asked for more reports, so Discretion reports at will, please gents!!
JB

[atiuta]

How do you think the limits on CRS get there in the first place. Use them at your peril!

[BIKKERDENNAH]

KHAMEL HUCKER.

I stand corrected.

It is indeed 3hrs/3 which is one hour extension.

So EX DXB 5 MINS delay and Discretion it is.:ugh:

My original point stands that discretion MUST be written up! And if you DO not get the legal 3 hour rest you must go into discretion and not FIDDLE with the minimum rest requirement to complete the flight to CGK!! using the extension due to inflight relief!:=

[NO LAND 3]

I stand to be corrected (as usual!) however I believe that the legality of a duty is based on what is planned rather than reality. And, although you will never find a definition of "planned" in this context (even in JARs), it would appear that it refers to the scheduling stage. So if it can be demonstrated that, using historical wind data, say 80% of the time a flight can be completed within the FTL then it is legal to schedule, and any deviations can be accomodated with 'captains discretion'.
So strictly speaking I don't believe there is anything illegal here. However if it is not realistic, enough ASRs should bring attention to it.
Incidentally I don't believe there is a requirement for the augmenting crew to be in the flight deck for take off and landing.

[L1011]

Interesting thread guys. Thanks for all the insights and strategies. I never bid for this pairing and so have not had to wrestle with FTLs. Then again given CRS bidding it's a wonder I don't get awarded it every month :}
NL3 agree with you. There was a statement in the FOM that the augmenting crew had to be present for T/O, but it mysteriously disappeared some months ago. Landing was never an issue.

[BYMONEK]

Then being on the FD for landing would include him in the Flight duty period. NOT just 'duty period' as stated earlier. Big difference!