ATPLs.... OZ or NZ?? Can't decide!

[knox]

Hi all.
I'm looking at doing my ATPL studies very shortly (just looking to get frozen ATPL) where am i better off doing them OZ or NZ (i have NZ CPL).
I have been looking at OZ primarily because i dont have to sit a flight test however i do have to do multi IF flight test.

Am I better off doing all the exams and not worry about the flight test until i have a position within an airline?

What exactly is frozen ATPL?

I have checked both CAA and CASA websites and have also done searches on prrune but still can't come to a decision.



Can anyone please give me some advice!!

Thanks

Knox

[27/09]

There are a few things you need to think about.

Where do you intend to use this ATPL? In other words will it be recognised where you intend to work?

Doing the Oz ATPL's will be no use to you with just a NZ CPL. At the very least you will need to convert your NZ CPL to an OZ Cpl in order to make use of the OZ ATPL credits.

A "frozen ATPL" is one where you have the qualifications but not the minimum flight time requirements for the issue of the ATPL. It is issued once you have meet the minimum flight time requirements. There is no flight test required.

There is no such thinhg as a "frozen ATPL" in NZ. NZ is like the USA where as well as meeting the minimum flight time requirements you have to have sat and passed the exams and the flight test before you can get your ATPL.

In NZ your command upgrade check ride will/can be your ATPL flight test.

I would be inclined to do the exams for the country where you intend to use the ATPL initially.

[knox]

thanks 27/09
I'll be looking at using my ATPL overseas. I have been told that they (the company(s)) purely req ATPLs, doesn't matter which country and frozen is fine.

Knox

[27/09]

The companies may be happy with the ATPL credits from anywhere, I'm not sure that all Civil Aviation Authorities are though when it comes time to issue the ATPL.

Hence my reason for saying doing the exams for the country where you intend to first use your ATPL.

[Sqwark2000]

In NZ your ATPL's are not lifetime exams anymore. I think and I can't be sure now because it was a while ago, but you must complete all ATPL exams within 3 years of sitting the first one, and then you gain an ATPL exam credit which is then valid for 5 or 10years?? after that if you have attained an ATPL license then the exam credit is void and they must be sat again. ( The Law exam is still only valid for 5 yrs regardless)

You may as well convert your NZ CPL to an OZ one, do the OZ ATPL exams gain a frozen ATPL and when you meet the 1500TT ( be it in a C152 or B737 etc) then you will automatically be issued an ATPL (then you could convert back to NZ i guess, not sure, I think you only get 1 go at conversion under the TTMRA but not sure if it's 1 go each way or just 1 conversion))

[Tinstaafl]

It's not really correct to state that someone would '...automatically be issued..." with an ATPL. No one is automatically issued the licence.

For a start the person must apply for the licence. One of the pre-requisites prior to applying is that the person must hold an instrument rating. That in turn mandates passing a flight test within the last year (and a bit for the early renewal option).

Another requirement is to meet the PIC experience minimum. It's possible for someone within a cadet training scheme to gain a CPL and subsequent employment as an FO in a regional and never meet the PIC minimum - hence no ATPL.

[NoseGear]

There is one other matter to consider when deciding, and that is if you do intend to operate overseas, whilst the hours you accrue are allowed to be counted towards the ATPL licence issue, in NZ there is the "small" matter of the flight test. Sadly, there is really but one place that is currently doing private ATPLs, and it aint cheap! To give you a figure, your looking at the better chunk of 15K NZ for the type rating/hours/flight test. In OZ, our practical brothers there have decided that 1500 hours, plus 50 night, not sure of the PIC requirement and IF rating is fine, no flight test required. This could almost all be done in a C150, no difference.
And as has been mentioned by another poster, better check with the countrys Aviation Authority you intend on working in, I dont know of many that will accept a "frozen" ATPL, which as also stated, has no official recognition as a licence type in either Oz or NZ.
Good luck to you mate
Nosey

[knox]

cheers guys.

NoseGear, the place i'm looking at has already told me that NZ and Oz ATPL is ok and fATPL is also ok.

"Sadly, there is really but one place that is currently doing private ATPLs, and it aint cheap!"

The cost is ridiculous and i wont do it but i'm curious so where is this place?


Knox

[Got the horn]

I think the place he's talking about is Air Wanganui. Their Mojave is available for ATPL flight test's, and you'd need ten hours on type before doing an ATPL flight test in it.I don't know what the hourly rate is for it but would say it's around the $1500+ an hour mark.

[NoseGear]

Horn, thats the place mate. Very nice and experienced instructors, nothing at all wrong with their operation, very professionally run I think, but the cost is quite prohibitive. Your again pretty close with the hourly rate, its $1000/hr for the type rating, then you can fly "dead head" sectors for 100/hr, which is a pretty good deal, and then the flight test is back at 1000/hr, for around 2.5 hours duration. Don't forget to factor in hotel, food and transport to and from and in and around the thriving metropolis that is Wanganui:E The hiccup in the "dead head" sectors is that they now use their Kingair almost exclusively, as you would, so the Mojave doesn't do all that much in the way of flying. You tend to end up just hanging around for a week for 1 or 2 hours, unless you get pretty lucky. I just didn't have that kind of time to waste, and neither would I imagine would anyone else. The joke about the NZ ATPL is that I am flying a modern, all glass jet, but had to go back to piston powered, steam driven gauges and go beacon bashing just to prove that I "qualified" for an ATPL:rolleyes:
Anyhoo, best of luck to you mate, congrats on the job, have fun:ok:
Nosey

[knox]

Thanks for all the info guys.
I think the most economical way is to go to oz and convert nz cpl to oz and do the ATPLs there. even if it means i have to do meir oz style (i'm guessing that i can't convert nz meir), the cost should be alot cheaper.

anyone know of a good place to do ATPLs in Sydney??

cheers

Knox.

[mattyj]

I have had a lot of discussions with pilots (ATP, CPL, Instructors etc) on this topic. No one seems to know the exact situation here in NZ since the rule changes last year. I have read up on CAAs website and I thought I new what was going on but if someone could clarify if they know the exact score that would be grouse...

..Doesn't the 3 year limit only apply to CPL exams..ie you have to finish them all within 3 years?

..there is no limit in time for completing all your ATP subjects but they only last 10 years each?


..You must pass your ATP checkride within 10 years of doing your first subject?

..if your credit is older than 10 years you must resit just that subject..except law which is 5

..all your knowlege deficiencies must be signed by a B Cat or better who has done that exam on the result slip. (the B Cat need not be current)?

..is there some sort of grandaddy clause if you sat exams before the rule change on expiry dates?

If you know any of these are incorrect or correct for sure that would be great..I am going back into CAA to recheck again but when I start reading that Government Buearo-speak my eyes start to glaze over:sad: :eek:

[mach2.5]

Hey there, to reply one of your question:

you must sit the ATPL flight test within 10 years, after you completed all your ATPL subjects.

if you completed all your ATPL subjects before 11th May 2006, you must complete you flight test within 5 years..:\

i have completed all my subjects in March 2006, and i have just missed out the change, so i have to get into egle in 3 years, get command in 2 years, so i can have my ATPL, other wise i have to resit all the subjects again...all of them....:ugh:

thats if you want to go to egle. if you want to work for air nelson or mt cook, you are srcoode, because they dont upgrade their FO in 2 years.

this is crap man, there is no way i can get into egle in 3 years, most people did it from the time they started working as a pilot in 5 years...

i hope these info can help, and if someone can chat to CAA about it, they might change the rule back...

[flyby_kiwi]

Having done the NZ ones and wishing I had done the OZ ones I can say without a doubt DO THE OZ ONES!!!!!!
Reasons being there very little/prehaps noone here (NZ) who runs regualar classes so you will be teaching yourself the subjects from texts written over ten years ago.
Secondly if you do the NZ ones you will have to do an ATPL flight test which short of paying big $$$ to do privatley yourself you will have to wait till your in the airlines.
It doesnt stop here unfortunatly..... IF you manage to get yourself a job in NZ working on an a/c suitable for the flight test your employer MAY let you sit the flight test as part of a check flight (normally only after you have a few good results). It is also likley however they wont let you do it untill you command upgrade which could take any lenth of time based on seniority.
This may not sound entirley all bad untill you find your self in the position of wanting to move overseas for work and either having to shell out big $$$ for a flight test or convert you CPL and do a foreign countrys subjects all over again.
Take it from someone who wishes they had taken the aussie route: Do thier theory, by all means get an NZ CPL, sign the paper work to get in converted into an aussie one then wait for the hours to tick along then pick up an OZ ATPL and convert to whatever you want (even a NZ one).
And yes..... there are time limits on the NZ subjects now :ugh:

[inxs]

Knox - (i'm guessing that i can't convert nz meir)

you can convert a NZ IR to an Oz one under TTMRA as long as it is current at time of application.

[Flyin Low]

Mach 2.5...
"so i have to get into egle in 3 years, get command in 2 years, so i can have my ATPL....... thats if you want to go to egle. if you want to work for air nelson or mt cook, you are srcoode, because they dont upgrade their FO in 2 years"

That's not correct. I used to work for Air Nelson, got my ATPL as an FO. I don't remember the rule but I think you must have been in the company for one year with two good checks or something along those lines, then they let you do the check from the right hand seat. May as well get paid some good money on your way to your ATPL aye. Not sure what Mount Cook's deal is but I'm sure it's the same.

[mattyj]

Ok I have re-read part 61 and before I slump into a coma I can summarise the following.

From 11 May 06 you have 3 years from the first ATP exam pass to finish all 7.
Any longer and you must sit all 7 again.
Pricks!

But..

Any ATP exams sat before that date remain valid untill 11 May 2011.

(This country (NZ) is a beauracratic nightmare)

[flyby_kiwi]

Geez, It took me 3 years to do one subject in particular :uhoh:

[Peter Fanelli]

Geez, how long does it take to knock out 7 ATPL exams?

[knox]

Wow very straight forward.

So do I have to be current with IR to sit atp exams (oz)? Do i need to convert NZ CPL before atp exams (oz)?
To convert NZ MEIR to Oz do i have to submit at the same time as my NZ CPL conversion?

Thanks

Knox

[hoggsnortrupert]

Go to Peter Bini Aviation in Melborne:

If you have a NZ CPL, register it with NZ CAA , use to cost $25.00.

Go and speak to the above.

A Navajo or what ever the thingy is burns approx 32 imp Gals an hour, circa 150 ltr /Hr fuel cost is circa $ 225.00 hr, another $800.00 for the machine and an Instructor, get real, bloody thieving Bstards.

Only in NZ, go forward, don't look back.

Or Call Billy Whitworth at Whitworth Aviation, in Bankstown.

Both outstanding institutions and have used both myself.

H/snort:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[knox]

Quote: hoggsnortrupert
"If you have a NZ CPL, register it with NZ CAA , use to cost $25.00."

Um... HUH?? I thought my current NZ CPL was already registered with NZCAA??

hoggsnortrupert.
Thanks for the info on schools, will look into it.

cheers

Knox

[flyby_kiwi]

Geez, how long does it take to knock out 7 ATPL exams?

Longer for some than others.... some people cant get time off as reliably as others, throw in a new job with interview/grnd course/line training (upto 6 month process), maybe your unlucky an fail one, some regions only have exams one day every two months which may be during your busy season etc etc....... 3 years to do 7 exams does become an effort particuarly if you dont have ready access to decent study material/help.
Remember everyones situation is different.

bloody thieving Bstards

Dont think youll find you get much out of $1500 on charter so $1000/hr proabaly isint far off the mark. I dont deal with the books but think youll find cost is about NZ$700/hr for a PA31 and I cant imagine that running one with a px. system will make it any cheaper.

[astinapilot]

Got www.aft.com.au (http://www.aft.com.au) on Sunshine Coast and you can sit the hardest 4. Accomodation provided for $90/wk. I have been told this is the best. Au ATPL's have to finish within 3 yrs of fist one also but can get them done full time in 8 weeks. 1500tt and 100 night I think. Yo don't need Au CPL, just an "ARN" number which if your search www.casa.gov.au (http://www.casa.gov.au) it will have the application form. All these questions are answered on this website.

The website tells you all the info and has course dates for you.

If you want to sit the other 3 in classroom, goto www.atpl.com.au (http://www.atpl.com.au) in Sydney acomm avai also, v.good.

Hope this helps, I am Kiwi and would def. do AU subjects.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Can you fly a Chieftan, or 402?

H/Snort.