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Joe Curry
19th Aug 2001, 15:32
Source: Sunday Times 19th. Aug 2001

THE American airline Continental is close to confirming the first transatlantic flights from Edinburgh airport in an important step forward in the growth of Scotland's international air links.

Details are being finalised for a daily flight between Edinburgh and Newark, New Jersey, to start next May, and an announcement is expected within weeks. A senior airline source said yesterday: "It's
a sure thing."

The deal is a political coup for Henry McLeish, first minister in the Scottish executive, over his Labour colleague Helen Liddell, the Scottish secretary.

Liddell had called a summit meeting of air industry chiefs for September 26 and was keen to take the lead in opening up new routes to Scots travellers, enticing more tourists to fly directly to Scottish airports instead
of arriving via London.

The regulation of aviation and air transport is the responsibility of the UK government.However, credit for landing such a significant new route is now likely to go to the first minister.

Continental's chief operating officer met McLeish and Sarah Boyack, the transport
minister, in March as part of the effort to clinch the project. Continental has not
had any meetings with Liddell or George Foulkes, her deputy.

VisitScotland, the Scottish executive's tourism agency, is expected to sweeten
the deal by providing marketing cash to help to promote the new route - although
there is some frustration among airline officials about the length of time it is
taking to confirm the amount of support.

The SNP yesterday welcomed news of the route, but urged the executive to ensure that delays in finalising the assistance package did not jeopardise the deal.

Continental is in the process of signing off its budgets for next year. A lengthy delay would reduce the amount of time available
to the airline to market the new route, reducing the success of
its launch.

"Continental is important to Scotland," said Kenny Mac-Askill, the SNP's enterprise spokesman.

"The executive must ensure that money is there to clinch this new link."

MacAskill also paid tribute to The Sunday Times' Fares Fair for Scotland campaign, which has been pushing since March for
more direct international air links from Scottish airports to attract tourists and open up new holiday opportunities for Scots.

In that time, government and opposition politicians have accelerated their efforts to encourage new links.

Recent months have seen a number of routes being announced, including BMI British Midland flights from Edinburgh to Brussels; Ryanair from Edinburgh to Dublin; and easyJet and ScotAirways flights to Amsterdam.

Continental executives have taken some persuading that Scotland needs an
additional transatlantic route on top of the airline's existing Glasgow-New York
service, which has attracted 350,000 passengers in the three years since it
was set up.

Bosses found it difficult to understand why some east coast business people
prefer to fly from Edinburgh to London and then across the Atlantic, rather than
drive 50 miles to Glasgow airport.

One factor that persuaded them of the route's viability was the number of declarations
of support from large Scottish firms, including the Royal Bank of Scotland and
Scottish Widows, committing their executives to using the service.

BAA, owner and operator of Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen airports, played a
significant part in clinching the deal, offering discounted airport charges for a set period, freeing up check-in desks and also promising marketing support.

International route planners from Continental were in Scotland three weeks ago to
finalise arrangements.

Steve Craven, Scottish sales manager for Continental, yesterday issued an upbeat statement about the new route: "It's there
as a potential new route for next year. I'm confident it will happen."

John MacCalman
19th Aug 2001, 16:49
It will happen. The question is whether CO take advantage of an early departure from Scotland to attract the front end traffic.

This would mean the first Scottish departure would get a businessman in New York in time for a full day's business and probably get in ahead of Concorde in NYC.

A 7.00 from Glasgow and a 12.00 noon from EDI
would make more sense that having departures at approximately the same time from two airports 50 miles apart.

If the BA/AA thingy goes ahead as seems likely what is unlikely is BA return to the GLA/JFK service specially if CO are double daily out of Scotland.

Joe Curry
19th Aug 2001, 17:09
>>A 7.00 from Glasgow and a 12.00 noon from EDI would make more sense that having departures at approximately the same time from two airports 50 miles apart.<<

I would have thought a 0700 from EDI and 12 noon from GLA would make sense given that the bulk of front end traffic will originate from
the EDI area?

One also wonders if bmi will follow-up their
announcement to operate an EDI-USA service 'within months'. ?

John MacCalman
19th Aug 2001, 17:14
Joe,

I agree on the timings issue. 0700 ex EDI would be best.

>>>One also wonders if bmi will follow-up their announcement to operate an EDI-USA service 'within months'. ? <<<

I reckon that was a spoiler to try and stop CO operating out of EDI so they could continue to feed traffic over MAN.

[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: John MacCalman ]

The Guvnor
19th Aug 2001, 21:58
Of course, what CO have conveniently forgotten to mention is that the EDI frequencies will be at the expense of GLA.

Scotland is the only major European country without its own airline, meaning that visitors have to fly via a third country to get there, which creates a 'hassle factor' which disincentivises travel. In my opinion, the Scottish Executive would be much better off trying to help establish one rather than pandering to fickle US megacarriers that will be out of here in a heartbeat if things don't go as planned for them!

The two biggest problems affecting Scottish aviation are airports - only PIK has a runway long enough to serve the whole of the USA - neither EDI or GLA can extend theirs to cope - and the BAA has no interest in helping alleviate ATC problems by moving flights outside SE England; and airlines - VS has shown no interest at all in Scotland; BA dropped its direct services from GLA many years ago; and although BD holds route licences from EDI to points in the USA and Canada I can't see them using them - especially if they can get access to LHR to use their A330s on transatlantics.

barcode
19th Aug 2001, 22:47
Guvnor - whether they have their own airline or not, the Scots as a race are clever enough to know that they won't want to fly to the USA in a clapped out old TriStar; megacarriers they may be, but give me one of Continental's new Boeings any day.

The Guvnor
19th Aug 2001, 23:02
Actually, barcode at this time of the year CO uses DC10-30s which are older than the L15s I'm looking at - and the rest of they year they use narrowbodied, twin engined B757s which aren't a lot younger! :D :D :D

John MacCalman
20th Aug 2001, 12:16
WOW! what a lot of stuff that needs a response.

>>>what CO have conveniently forgotten to mention is that the EDI frequencies will be at the expense of GLA. <<<<

No they wont. The service will be additional to Glasgow. Intially a 757 at each with the possibilty of a 767 on one route (probably EDI) if the growth is there.

>>>Scotland is the only major European country without its own airline,<<<<

So what. Scotland is also the graveyard for those who have tried to run a Scottish Airline. We are in global markets now. As long as the airline respects all the legal requirements for operating in the UK does it really matter what the nationality of ownership is?

>>>meaning that visitors have to fly via a third country to get there<<<

Its market forces not nationality of airline that determines this.

>>>In my opinion, the Scottish Executive would be much better off trying to help establish one<<<

This would be a waste of money. return to the days of national airlines subsidised by their governments? I thought we were trying to move away from that.

>>>rather than pandering to fickle US megacarriers that will be out of here in a heartbeat if things don't go as planned for them!<<<<

The only fickle US carrier was United who came in and trashed the market, scared off Northwest and then pulled out themselves.
Northwest now carry more Scots passengers over Amsterdam than they did when they had a direct service form either GLA or PIK.

>>>>The two biggest problems affecting Scottish aviation are airports - only PIK has a runway long enough to serve the whole of the USA - neither EDI or GLA can extend theirs to cope <<<<<

There is not a market for non-stop flights to the West coast USA other than the occasional charter. Not worth spending millions on runway extension for that. And anyway if you do want to fly to the West coast you have PIK. The market will determine viability.

>>>- and the BAA has no interest in helping alleviate ATC problems by moving flights outside SE England;<<<<

Why should the BAA want to move flights outwith where people want them?

>>>and airlines - VS has shown no interest at all in Scotland; <<<

No perceived market to fit in with their global plan.


>>>BA dropped its direct services from GLA many years ago; <<< Becasue they were screwed over being unable to go into partnership with AA. That would have made the route work with beyond New York traffic connecting at JFK.

>>>and although BD holds route licences from EDI to points in the USA and Canada I can't see them using them - especially if they can get access to LHR to use their A330s on transatlantics<<<<

At least we agree on that one!

The Guvnor
20th Aug 2001, 13:35
You're not the PR bloke for CO, by any chance, John? :D :D :D Ok, let's address your responses:

EDI frequencies

I have it on good authority from one of the senior marketing people at CO that they view the EDI and GLA markets basically as one. They have seemingly done their O&D research and bearing in mind the relative market sizes (metropolitan Glasgow being some five times the size of metropolitan Edinburgh) I'm personally rather sceptical of the viability of transatlantics ex EDI.

Sure, a lot of businesses are EDI based, leading one to assume good high yield traffic - but is it going to be sufficient to sustain year-round operations? Again, you have special events such as the Edinburgh festival that increase - substantially - the numbers of tourists but again, this doesn't justify year round ops to EDI.

Scottish airline

Actually, there has only been one attempt at a home-grown Scottish long haul airline (if one disregards Adam Thompson's Caledonian which although it operated very successfully from PIK was nevertheless a LGW based carrier) - and that was Randolph Fields' Highland Express. Their primary downfall was that they used a single old, poorly maintained B747-100 which kept breaking down. Single aircraft airlines just don't work - especially in that sort of market.

If a country is to be seen as a serious contender in the global marketplace, it must be readily accessible to both visitors and investors. Even the Isle of Man (Manx), Channel Islands (Aurigny) and Wales (Air Wales) have their own, home-grown, carriers - Scotland has Scot Airways which is really still Suckling and based out of CBG; Highland Airways which is part of Air Atlantique and Loganair which is part of BRAL.

Scotland continues to move towards full independence within a federal Europe, and I would therefore assert that yes, it is extremely important for it to have a locally owned and based airline!

Operations via a third country

Which is why Scotland needs its own airline - as I said, the hassle factor puts people off coming there: and that applies as much to investors as it does to tourists.

Scottish Executive

CO have made it clear to the Scottish Executive that they want money from them if the EDI service is to be launched. My view is that that money would be better spent on establishing a home-grown airline rather than giving it to an American megacarrier that will probably pull out of the market after a year or so anyway.

The provision of government funds does not necessarily signify that the operation would be government controlled - look at the subsidies provided to various essential air operations such as the Highlands and Islands, Scilly Isles, etc.

Investment in an airline by the Scottish Executive via Scottish Enterprise will generate jobs and stimulate inward investment - its something that's good for Scotland plc.

No West Coast USA - Scotland market

I disagree completely with that - the 1996 CAA O&D stats show that there is indeed a very viable market to the West Coast of the USA. In addition, direct services would stimulate traffic from that area (the LA basin has a population 50% greater than the whole of Scotland!) - especially for golfing and other specialist vacations.

My point was that neither GLA or EDI have extendable runways - and that PIK remains the only true long-haul airport in Scotland.

BAA

First, bear in mind that a very sizeable number of passengers (in excess of 50%) do not use London as an O&D point. In other words, LGW and LHR (especially the latter) are simply hub airports. As with several of the US megahubs, they could be in the middle of nowhere and it wouldn't affect the passengers. A hub in Scotland would make a great deal of sense as it would alleviate ATC congestion in the London TMA and again provide a substantial number of jobs. In the case of passengers headed to northern Europe from the Eastern USA, it would also have the effect of cutting their overall journey time substantially.

The monopoly position of the BAA is something that needs to be closely investigated. They control pretty much every major international airport in the UK with the exception of Manchester (and BHX if you regard that as a major international airport). In particular, they have an effective monopoly (with the exception of LTN) on major airports in SE England. Is this really acceptable?

BA

As the UK's 'national airline' shouldn't they have a duty to provide effective, direct service to Scotland? Not to them, anyway! They would far rather have pax leave their homes in EDI or GLA and fly over them again a few hours later having transited through LHR or LGW having been able to screw them for a few hundred pounds more thanks to the 'sum of sector' fare rules affecting UK-US flights from those airports under Bermuda II.

BA has enough interline agreements in place with carriers beside AA to allow the feed of pax to/from their gateway destinations, so that argument doesn't wash, I'm afraid!

In any case, the 'sum of sectors' rules would not apply to flights originating from airports other than LHR and LGW - so passenger convenience and cost saving is once again being put second to BA's quest for operational efficiency and profit. (And as a BA shareholder I'd applaud them for that, btw - but it does tend to negate their position as the UK's flag carrier!)

hold the nose and trim
20th Aug 2001, 14:03
My information on the Continental plans were that they feel that Gla and Edi are too close to have flights leaving daily from both airports!!! As the Gla flight has been a massive success, with a 40% increase in loads this summer, they were considering using a bigger plane all year round!!? It had also been suggested that they may start a new flight from gla to another airport!!!?
It also has to be remembered that Americian keep also being quoted that they wish to go all year round from gla, supposdely that cannot get the slot they are looking for from gla or the best landing price!! Thought if the BA/AA marriage happens then they may codeshare on this flight and it may happen. Is it me or does anybody else thing that all Joe Curry writes about is [email protected] about Edi being this and that and is always negative about Gla, a little biased to the east coast or a little jealous of Gla!!!!!!!!!!

You want it when?
20th Aug 2001, 14:56
Guvnor - I was under the impression that Scotland was still part of the United Kingdom which is also known as Great Britain. Therefore British Airways is the national airline of Scotland as well as England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

I'm certain you will find (using your stunning inside contacts) that it is not economically viable to fly frequent scheduled long haul wide bodies from Scottish airports. If it was then some smart marketing type would already be doing it. BA don't make people fly to the South because of the prestige of flying from LHR - they do it because it makes more money. An airline is a registered company, not a registered charity - they have a responsibility to their shareholders and employees to act as an on-going concern and not as a vehicle for flights of fancy.

The Guvnor
20th Aug 2001, 15:30
hold the nose and trim - don't forget that The Scotsman is EDI based and can therefore be expected to have an east coast outlook on life; whereas The Herald is GLA based and is more 'westcentric'. I agree though that Joe Curry seems to think that Scotland extends no further west than Stirling! :D :D :D

You want it when? - I'm well aware of that: at least as far as it pertains to BA (see the final paragraph in my last post). The problem is that BA seems to centre its long haul services out of London which is great for the south east but does little for the rest of the country.

I (and many others) disagree that there is not a market for frequent services out of Scotland - at the moment you have nearly a million Scots a year travelling down to England to fly to the States (extrapolated from CAA O&D 1996). I've spent the last 18 months on putting together a business plan for such an operation, and believe me, it can - and will - work.

BTW, according to my passport, it's "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

Joe Curry
20th Aug 2001, 20:58
>>Is it me or does anybody else thing that all Joe Curry writes about is [email protected] about Edi being this and that and is always negative about Gla, a little biased to the east coast or a little jealous of Gla <<

Hold the nose and trim? Can I smell paranoia?
Jealous of an airport that underperforms on
every route EDI is allowed to compete on?

I don't think so. :D :D :D

Blue Boy
20th Aug 2001, 23:06
We shouldn't allow this to turn into an East-West slagging match.

However, having worked at both GLA & EDI in my time, I think that we should remember that GLA has been the only airport in Scotland to offer year round transatlantic flights for quite a few years now.
Why? - Could it possibly be better facilities, greater transport links to West/Central Scotland, larger poulation (bigger potential market, etc)& Industry.

Things have quite obviously changed over on the East Coast - A new terminal (dominated by BA!), more importantly the Scottish Executive is now based there, and the attitudes have become that they think that there should be greater links to the outside world, further than BRU/DUB/FRA, etc.

When AC/AA/CO, etc, decided to operate from GLA they obviously did their homework and found that this was where the greatest potential market is, and not EDI.

Joe - I have to agree with you - most of the flights operating from EDI are busier than some of those operating from GLA. easyJet & GO are really doing quite well. The old saying 'Short Arms, Deep Pockets', does seem quite appropriate doesn't it?

Island Air
20th Aug 2001, 23:09
The Guvnor, are you sure you are in the airline business? Your knowledge of the Scottish aviation scene is one of ignorance I feel.

<<Scotland has Scot Airways which is really still Suckling and based out of CBG; Highland Airways which is part of Air Atlantique and Loganair which is part of BRAL.>>

Firstly, Scotairways is not 'really Suckling and based out of CBG'. It has moved on in recent years and is now a major player in Scotland, and will continue to grow with new routes. Next month will see 2 new destinations from INV. Jets soon to be on the flightline, and a new head office north of the border.

Loganair is NOT part of BRAL, not for a long time now (1997).

Highland Airways are a scruffy little outfit, hardly worth a mention in the scheme of things, and they are not a scheduled carrier in anycase.

If you intend to be a player in Scotland, try to learn some history, and knowledge of the current scene. Remember, people read this site and may believe you, scary thought I know, but it might just happen!

BTW, I do not work for any of the above, and I managed to get the info. Mind you, I am trying like mad to get into one of them.
:eek:

The Guvnor
20th Aug 2001, 23:27
Island Air - I concede that I messed up over the ownership of Loganair (owned by the Royal Bank of Scotland at one point, btw) - but do you really claim that Roy and Merle Sucking are not running Scot Airways out of CBG? Sure, Ann Gloag and Brian Soutar might be the principal investors but the day-to-day operational running is most certainly not out of Perth! :eek: :eek:

As for Highland Airways - don't knock them. A little bird tells me that they are the preferred choice for the Essential Air Service operations to the Highlands and Islands - and btw I understand that PIK will be their main base, thanks to a deal with Ayrshire Health Authority. In fact, if you're looking for a job, they're probably your best bet! :D :D :D

GustyOrange
21st Aug 2001, 00:18
Guv,
I still can't understand why you wouldn't want to operate from GLA to the US as opposed to PIK. You might pay a little more in landing charges, but would use far better facilities and would have more chance of picking up premium traffic, also mabye some transfer pax as well.

To the boys from the east: Glasgow has competition from our neighbours on the west coast that you don't have to worry about. And can we just run throught the total pax numbers again guys? :D :D :D :D

The Guvnor
21st Aug 2001, 00:57
Gusty Orange - the answer is simple: runway length. We need 10,000ft for MTOW L15. Can GLA offer that?

PS I'll take you up on your offer of a beer - drop me an email, addy in my profile!

John MacCalman
21st Aug 2001, 11:40
The Guvnor says...

>>CO have made it clear to the Scottish Executive that they want money from them if the EDI service is to be launched. My view is that that money would be better spent on establishing a home-grown airline rather than giving it to an American megacarrier<<

and in a later post

>>I (and many others) disagree that there is not a market for frequent services out of Scotland - at the moment you have nearly a million Scots a year travelling down to England to fly to the States (extrapolated from CAA O&D 1996). I've spent the last 18 months on putting together a business plan for such an operation, and believe me, it can - and will - work. <<

Now I understand where he's coming from. He wants money from the Scottish Executive to run his airline.

While my heart might love to see a Scottish intercontinental airline my head says "nae chance"

The CO flights from GLA and EDI will serve all of Scotland. The market growth is sufficient to support double daily and by splitting the flights between both GLA and EDI both main population centres are seen to have service. It is not as if nobody from GLA will travel on a plane out of EDI.

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: John MacCalman ]

The Guvnor
21st Aug 2001, 12:05
Actually, that's just one of the avenues we're exploring at present - but I do feel strongly that if there is cash going then it should rather be invested in a 'home grown' solution as I said earlier!

The CAA's own O&D stats, coupled with Freddie Laker's 'Forgotten Man' principle, shows that there are about a dozen transatlntic routes that could be operated viably from Scotland using domestic traffic alone. Add to that additional connecting traffic if a first-rate service is offered (Lauda Air is a good example of an airline based in a country with a similar population profile as that of Scotland - one where pax will come from all over Europe and elsewhere to fly their long haul services).

By definition, if CO is going for the business traveller, then a daily frequency is required at minimum - which means that daily services will be operated from both EDI and GLA, using B757s. As you'e doubtless well aware, pax are not wildly happy about flying across the pond in a narrowbody; and still less with one with two engines. As far as most Scottish pax that I've spoken to are concerned, the B757 is the aircraft they fly on to LHR! That said, Icelandair do pretty well with them and they have had a relatively clean safety record.

By the way, John - you didn't answer my question about whether or not you were handling the PR for CO! ;) :D ;)

I look forward to your response as to why there is "nae chance" that a home-grown airline could work. :D :D

parkfell
21st Aug 2001, 13:35
Highland are planning to operate the Stornoway/Benbecula service from September

hold the nose and trim
21st Aug 2001, 14:26
Mr Curry, Jealous of what, are'nt we getting very petty!!!!!
I think I will have to put the record correct with your good biased self!! Iam a 757 driver who has flown all over the world and have been based at many airports, iam ENGLISH and has recently being based at Glasgow and so do not take partake in anything to do with the Glasgow, Edinburgh rivalry. From your disgrace of a website and also your posts within pprune it becomes apparent that you are a very twisited man who is only interested in fueling the rivalry. For a person to have a whole website devoted to slagging glasgow off is very sad and even sadder when you actually look at some of your facts which you use for this. If you go to the unofficial glasgow airport site, i dont see the site owner using his website to slag of Edinburgh, a much more dignified and informative site!!! Now to some facts, as i work out of both Glasgow and Edinburgh as well as other uk airports and I think it could be said that iam better placed than yourself to comment on the two airports, I take it from your profile and website that you do not work in avaition and that your website and bitterness is a hobby? Glasgow at the moment yearly has over 1.3million more passengers than Edinburgh, Scheduled traffic for both airports are about equal in the places that they serve, though Edi have more frequencies on some flights and Gla has more on others such as Ezy to Belfast for Gla and Go to Bristol at Edi!!! You seem to forget that Glasgow also has competition from Prestwick on the London flights and I take it that it is these figures you use when saying that Edi does better, but as another ppruner said lets compare total pax numbers!!!!! Charter wise you do not have a leg to stand on and never will and this alone means that you will never be Scotlands number one airport which for some reason you crave!!! You keep mentioning that Bmi have the Route License for Edi-Toronto but you seem to forget that they also have a Gla-Toronto Route License as well, and do you know what other airlines have transatlantic Route License for Glasgow, many, but at this moment they do not use them. You also never mention American or Icelandic's services out of Glasgow which from press reports are big success. You claim Glasgow is in decline, how come the Charter market is bigger than ever, Transatlantic flight are expanding and loads are increasing, more and more low cost operators are opening up new routes, PIA are due to start a new route, Emirates are also considering starting a route, Continental are extreamly happy with their route and could expand and Fedex are due to start international cargo flights. Glasgow has passed 7 million passengers for the first time, so please explain how Glasgow is in freefall!!!? And on your comments on Ezy or Go bases comming to Edi rather than Glasgow if you actually worked in the industry you would know that they will have small bases at both airports and if they start new routes they will start them at both airports as has happened, the only thing which may vary would be frequencies or if the route was a special route say set up for the parliament such as maybe Brussels or Geneva!!!
I think you should just go back to your wesite and use it for your Edinburgh Airport propaganda and keep this site free for more formative information written by people who may actually know the truth!!!! >>>Hold the nose and trim? Can I smell paranoia?
Jealous of an airport that underperforms on
every route EDI is allowed to compete on?<<<

" A Very very sad statement, do you have nothing to do else with you life than talk about someone being jealous of another airport, get real, an airport, i can think of a thousand more thing important to me than Glasgow or Edinburgh Airport!!!!!"


Sorry can somehow fly areoplanes, but cannot for the life of me spell!!!!

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: hold the nose and trim ]

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: hold the nose and trim ]

The Guvnor
21st Aug 2001, 14:49
So what's the url for Joe Curry's website then?

hold the nose and trim
21st Aug 2001, 14:53
There you go Guv!!!! Go to the page on edi future!!!

Joe Curry's web page (http://users.zetnet.co.uk/jcurry/indexb.html)

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: hold the nose and trim ]

John MacCalman
21st Aug 2001, 14:59
>>By the way, John - you didn't answer my question about whether or not you were handling the PR for CO! <<

No. They have a very good chap doing that and he doesn't need my help in screwing things up.

I am happy to put my head above the parapet in this forum and use my real name. Those who know me know what I do for a living which includes covering aviation matters as a journalist. I come to this forum to learn
and to contribute where I can.

>>I look forward to your response as to why there is "nae chance" that a home-grown airline could work. <<

Nothing wrong with a home grown airline on its own. Problem is in the global marketplace you must have major representation through alliances and partneships to survive.

There is not enough point to point traffic between Scotland and any single USA city to justify a daily scheduled service as BA discovered.

With regard to the 757 being appropriate the Business Cabin is configured 2 x 2 and gives no feeling of confined "shuttle" space. As for the back of the bus (2 x 3) they will go where the fares are cheapest so they are not so concerned about legroom although they should be with DVT problems.

The only problem with the 757 is no cargo space. I reckon Continental will upgrade to a 767 on one of the routes whenever they get the chance so they can take advantage of the masses of cargo which currently has to be trucked to MAN or further South.

If the AA/BA partership does get the go-ahead, and it should, then we will see the AA 767 working year round as a BA/AA code share between GLA and ORD.

United will also re-examine the route possibilities with their Star Alliance partners and in particular AC and bmi.

The Guvnor
21st Aug 2001, 15:27
From Joe Curry's web site (which includes a most interesting survey of passenger preferences of GLA and EDI, btw) here's the main reason - in my opinion - that I don't think that EDI as it stands is a viable long haul Scottish gateway:

EDINBURGH EGPH 5557N 0322W 135FT 06/24 8400FT
06 TORA 8400FT ASDA/TODA 8600FT LDA 7700FT
24 TORA 8400FT ASDA 8600FT TODA 9865FT LDA 7700FT

John MacCalman - so you don't think that there are sufficient passengers to justify direct services, do you? :D :D :D

The following figures are extrapolated from the CAA's last O&D study of Scottish airports:

NYC area 127,609
LAX area 76,886
BOS area 69,923
MCO area 169,088
BWI area 51,288
MIA area 35,196
YYZ area 32,615

If we apply the Laker 'Forgotten Man' principle (which updated would probably be known as the Ryanair Principle) you can, at the very least, triple those numbers; and you can increase them further through the removal of the 'hassle factor' for incoming passengers that want direct services.

I do agree with you that these days one (normally) needs alliances and interline partnerships to survive. But not always. Look at the low cost models: Ryanair, easyJet, Go, Southwest, WestJet etc - none of them interline, or are members of any alliance. An informal tie-up with carriers such as those would be as effective as membership of Star or OneWorld - both of whom have a number of members (including airlines like bmi british midland) which are questioning their viability.

As far as cargo is concerned, not only does the B757 have no space but the B767 because of its smaller cross-section when compared to the Airbuses, B747, DC10, L1011 (ie you can't get two LD3s in side by side) is not a very efficient cargo hauler either. However, Polar Air Cargo has a pretty successful operation going out of PIK - as indeed does Air France and Cargolux.

Email me (addy in profile) and I'd be happy to debate this with you over a few beers!

Joe Curry
21st Aug 2001, 18:51
>>Joe - I have to agree with you - most of the flights operating from EDI are busier than some of those operating from GLA. easyJet & GO are really doing quite well.
The old saying 'Short Arms, DeepPockets', does seem quite appropriate doesn't it?<<

Budget carriers seem to have found a whole new market, how many of these 'new' pax would
not have travelled if the price had not been right?.

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: Joe Curry ]

Joe Curry
21st Aug 2001, 19:03
>>If you go to the unofficial glasgow airport site, i dont see the site owner using his website to slag of Edinburgh,<<

My site is critical of BAA Glasgow, not the
city of Glasgow. :cool:

Captain Rodders
21st Aug 2001, 21:12
Hold the nose and trim

OK Joe is biased, no arguments there, but the paranoia is exhibited in your post.

By the way, according to CAA international route analysis for 2000 (the last full year available), the Glasgow charter market declined by 1.45%.

Going away to dig out more figures.

HZH

John MacCalman
21st Aug 2001, 21:36
Hi HZH,

Got a URL for getting these figures. Or does it costa da money for da info?

Deeko01
21st Aug 2001, 23:21
Island,

Be very careful what u say about operators such as Highland Airways, unless you are prepared to back up what you are saying, I work very closely with Highland and they are doing very well at the moment thank you very much and have just added another J31 to the fleet, and have a contract to fly BAe Systems pax GLA-FZO mon-thu and airtours crew GLA-MME-LPL fri plus sun, not too mention the INV-SYY run so not doin too badly.

Guvnor,

Dont know where u heard about PIK being HWY's preferred base but I can tell u it wont be!

Havent heard a squeak from TSC, ACA, BA or CKT about using the L1011 in and out of GLA and I know some of those flights would have been if not MTOW very close too it so cant understand what the problem is.

Hold the nose Down,

Here Here chap agree with you 100 percent

Joe Curry,

Get a Life worrying about which is the better airport, I think you should be concerned with the BAA EDI if anyone and tell them to put some parallel taxiways in full length and maybe position the tower where they can see everything first, howvever I really can think of better things to concern my life!

Gentleman,

Instead of some of the negative coments about which airport is best be it GLA, EDI or PIK lets just be happy that an airline like CO are interested in making Air Travel from Scotland as easy as possible, would you really rather they done like UA, NW or BA on transatlantic routes.

But I certainly believe PIK is a sleeping giant which is slowly but surely coming to life and Guv I dont know if you are for real or not, if you are then fair play but you know the facilities at the airport are not to standard for the public for that type of service, fair enough for ryanair n low frills n all.

:rolleyes:

The Guvnor
21st Aug 2001, 23:47
Deeko01 - Following data from Lockheed (who presumably know what they are talking about):

Takeoff Field Length (takeoff weight limit, FAA rule, sea level, 84 F/29.6 C)

L1011-1 8,400 ft
L1011-100 11,240 ft
L1011-200 8,000 ft
L1011-500 9,400 ft** **504,000 lb TOGW, FAA rules

CKT had the -100s, which require the greatest length. No way is GLA longer than PIK! :D :D (Fair dos, though - how often does GLA hit 29.6 deg C?)

As for PIK's facilities what can I say ... they have a nicely redone arrivals area (with a cocked-up baggage belt that has people queuing five deep in domestic, although international appears to have been done OK); but as for the rest of the airport ... if anyone wants to make a remake of that Elizabeth Taylor/Richard Burton classic movie The VIPs then PIK is the place to do it! :D :D

PS - have you seen their manual gate announcement board in the departures lounge??? :eek: :eek:

GustyOrange
22nd Aug 2001, 00:17
Hold the nose and trim.

What info do you have on PIA starting at GLA.

I've not head about this.

Cheers

whatshouldiuse
22nd Aug 2001, 01:23
Hi all;


I think we're missing the big picture here. Why would anybody want to fly to Newark? It makes Brixton...and that's he jail, look like the Garden Spot of the U.K.

Newark is a truly deadly city, both literaly and figuratively. Not to mention the $40 + cab ride to Manhattan.

A truly nasty, miserable place....and I could go on about the really bad points if you wish!!


Whatshouldiuse


null (http://null)

Captain Rodders
22nd Aug 2001, 02:30
Right, if we have all stopped throwing our toys out of the pram, let's have a look at the recent past.

Edinburgh Terminal Passengers:
1992 - Total 2538000 (rounded)
1997 - Scheduled 3891960, Charter 269377
2000 - Scheduled 5096995, Charter 400701

Glasgow Terminal Passengers:
1992 - Total 4669000 (rounded)
1997 - Scheduled 4038496, Charter 1973295
2000 - Scheduled 4817687, Charter 2106529

Prestwick Terminal Passengers:
1992 - Total 11000 (rounded)
1997 - Scheduled 526504, Charter 40834
2000 - Scheduled 810228, Charter 94630

Glasgow is king as far as charter traffic, no question about that with neither other airport making any significant inroads into the lead, but note how slow the growth is. However, if the A77 can be sorted, and the new PIK owners get their act together with the tour operators, Glasgow could start to be squeezed in that direction.

On the scheduled front, the picture is much different with growth much slower at Glasgow compared with Edinburgh both in actual and percentage terms and way behind Prestwick in terms of percentage (albeit from a very low base). The growth at Glasgow would be even slower in relation to Edinburgh and Prestwick if it were not for some leisure routes now being included in the scheduled totals (DP to Tenerife, Malaga, Faro, Cyprus etc).

As Ryanair expand at PIK it will put pressure on the scheduled traffic at Glasgow which will have to grow by means of attracting routes which do not interest FR. That could be where the likes of PIA and Emirates come in to the equation.

Returning to topic, if you were looking to start or increase a service where would you consider in terms of existing scheduled traffic and projected growth?

Continental may need financial inducement to start the EDI-EWR service but they may well find rich pickings on the route, only time will tell. Perhaps we should park this topic until 2003 and review the figures then.

On other points raised, I agree that EasyJet and Go will set up at both Edinburgh and Glasgow but may target different routes to a degree with Edinburgh concentrating on the European key cities (Barcelona, Madrid, Nice, Milan etc.) and Glasgow more towards, but not exclusively, the leisure routes (Majorca, Faro, Ibiza, Malaga, etc.) It's all a case of matching the route to the relevant demand.

There is enough room for all Central Scotland Airports but it must be accepted that not all routes will be served from all airports. Airlines will only start a route if they feel that it will have a commercial return, they are not charities.

All figures courtesy of CAA, airports listed alphabetically to avoid favouritism.

HZH

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics" - Benjamin Disraeli

Carbon Life Form
22nd Aug 2001, 03:23
FYI GOV,

Our oldest 757 is seven years old and oldest
767 less than a year.

I don't think most passengers care, or even notice how many engines their aircraft has.
They do care about nonstop, convenient, good
service.

A Continental employee.

Rinky
22nd Aug 2001, 04:24
Ladies, Ladies!!
Let's stop bickering about who is the greatest Scottish airport and address the important issue. This is Scotland's best chance to improve her position in the international aviation arena. Both EDI and GLA have their role to play. GLA with its larger population base and EDI with its capital status and extensive business potential. What worries me is that we are relying on foreign airlines eg CO to set up overseas direct links where our own so called 'flag carrriers' stand by and watch. The forthcoming summit on 26th September on Scottish direct links should aim to have a domestic carrier fully committed to developing Scotlands airports links and BAA giving us a fair position removing us finally from South East of England dominated investment.

John MacCalman
22nd Aug 2001, 10:59
we are relying on foreign airlines eg CO to set up overseas direct links where our own so called 'flag carrriers' stand by and watch.

Until our so called flag carriers are allowed to partner with an airline to take their passengers beyond a US gateway that's all they can do.

The Guvnor
22nd Aug 2001, 11:19
Whilst I together with a couple of my colleagues will be attending the conference on the 26th September, we don't expect too much to come of it. Helen Liddell and George Foulkes have no real decision making powers in this area - they have no control or direct input into either the CAA or DETL - and it seems to be a bit of a power struggle between the Scottish Office and the Scottish Executive with the latter actually doing something!

The Guvnor
22nd Aug 2001, 14:20
More on ScotAirways from today's Business AM:

Stagecoach founders keep the faith despite ScotAirways'losses
by Paul Rogerson
Published: 00:05 GMT, Aug 22, 2001

THE founders of Stagecoach, Brian Souter and Ann Gloag, have dipped into their personal
fortunes to bankroll the expansion of ScotAirways, the private airline which they part-own.

Last December the multi-millionaire siblings each advanced unsecured loans of 375,000 to the company and eight weeks ago injected the bulk of an extra 2.5m to bolster ScotAirways' strategy of
building a regional business airline.

New accounts show that ScotAirways Group made a pretax loss of 2.6m on turnover of 30.8m for a 16-month period to the end of December 2000.

Yesterday, Mr Souter was upbeat about the new venture's performance. He said: "There is a
substantial investment in our routes. This is a good result for a start-up airline."

The managing director, Roy Suckling, said the Cambridge-based company had been hit by the
pound's weakness against the dollar. "Aeroplanes and their components are sold in dollars but, unlike Virgin and BA, we don't receive any of our income in the same currency," he said.

The company's aim is to develop into a 100m enterprise by exploiting its specialist niche in the business community. But Mr Suckling said profitability was not yet an overriding concern for ScotAirways, which has only four shareholders.

He said: "Last year and the first half of this year have been about developing the business. As a private company we don't have to please the City. The aim is to establish a foundation for growth in the longer term."

ScotAirways is likely to break even at an operating level this year and move into profit in 2002, Mr Suckling said. Revenues are expected to top 33m this year, up from 12m in 1998.

Passenger numbers are expected to total about 250,000, up from 110,000 three years ago but below the 330,000 forecast by Mr Suckling in January.

The company's rapid growth has been fuelled by the success of its Scotland to London City services, which began in 1999.

Last week, a further spur to growth came when the company announced that from 10 September it will begin flying from Inverness to London City and Amsterdam.

Next month the company will also increase from five to seven the number of return flights it operates from Southampton to Amsterdam.

Mr Suckling confirmed that the company was considering other routes in Europe, including
Scandinavia.

"We're taking one step at a time," the former pilot said. "There's no point in expanding just for the sake of it."

[email protected]

Link: www.scotairways.co.uk (http://www.scotairways.co.uk)

ownership Four shareholders

Roy Suckling founded the company that is now ScotAirways in 1983. He and his wife, Merlyn, own 51%, while Mr Souter and Ms Gloag own 49%.

The Stagecoach pair invested about 5m in 1999, enabling what was then Suckling Airways to rebrand.

The airline runs routes to London City from Dundee, Glasgow and Edinburgh. It starts a service from Inverness next month.

The Guvnor
22nd Aug 2001, 20:45
And here's an interesting link to an consultative document on the future of UK aviation from DETR:

Regional Economic Effects (http://www.aviation.dtlr.gov.uk/consult/future/06.htm#3)

BAB2B
23rd Aug 2001, 14:12
I just heard yesterday that CO are now running a DC-10 into GLA in place of the 757 with plans to permanently upgrade to either a 767-400 or 777. This was from someone who is involved in the ground handling services, but obviously is just word of mouth at the moment.

Airbus A320
23rd Aug 2001, 16:17
I have heard through the grapevine that CO are planning to operate, initially anyway, via MAN using a B777. So that means that people will have a choice... they can go from GLA on a clapped out DC-10 or 20 odd year old B757, or a state of the art B777 from the capital....Gee, let me think.....

snooky
23rd Aug 2001, 16:29
A320

Read Carbon Life Form's post just above.

Rinky
23rd Aug 2001, 16:32
Guvnor, who else will attend the summit in Edinburgh? What is on the agenda and why are you so sceptical about any productive results emerging?

The Guvnor
23rd Aug 2001, 17:10
BA, bmi, Continental, and all the Scottish airports as far as I'm aware.

John MacCalman
23rd Aug 2001, 18:29
BAB2B,
I just heard yesterday that CO are now running a DC-10 into GLA in place of the 757 with plans to permanently upgrade to either a 767-400 or 777.

CO's DC10 came on to the GLA route last year 'cos it became spare from a route they thought they would get but didn't. It worked well with the back end load so they put it back into the schedule for this summer only. The service reverts to the 757 early September.

There is little chance of seeing a 777 on either of the Scottish routes over the next couple of years. Initally CO will work with two 757s but if there is sufficient growth they may consider a 767 but they would look to re-configure it with a higher number of economy seats to match the market.

The 777 is a nice aircraft but a little bit of an ambitious sledgehammer for the Scottish nut.

However as the Guv'nor points out if you want a 777 ride across the pond you can take a nice jet connection to several UK & European airports from Scotland.