RAAF Hercules in Emergency Landing

[Air Ace]

Sky News:
RAAF Hercules carrying the Prime Minister John Howard has made an emergency landing in Southern Iraq.

Later news: Cockpit filled with smoke. PM on a second Hercules and on his way.

[Angle of Attack]

Lol he can't get anything right these days the poor old eyebrow! :p

[Chronic Snoozer]

Loadie burnt the frozo apparently......

[Chronic Snoozer]

Some on board thought the smoke smelled of burning oil, while other likened it to burning insulation material.

Yep, definitely a frozo.

[ScottyDoo]

That'll swing a few morons with their sympathy votes his way...

Goodonya Little Johnny, better you than the Leftists.


btw, the paper says it was a RAAF plane. I thought a plane was a type of hamburger?? fwits.

[Captain Sand Dune]

I thought a "plane" was a carpentry tool.

[lowerlobe]

Just saw the video on TV of Johnny Bush running off the plane.

If the media can stand around and film him was there that much danger?

Maybe he had not had his morning run that day ! :E :E :E

[Capn Bloggs]

Well I never! The story on the front page of The Sunday Times (the world's best newspaper) defines a PAN as "possible assistance necessary". You learn something every day...:D

And yes, planes shave wood.

[Fris B. Fairing]

planes shave wood
You mean like this (http://www.adastron.com/aviation/definitive/plane-hanger/plane-hanger-1.htm)

[The PM]

Did you hear that in her divorce from Paul McCartney, Heather Mills insisted she gets their plane?
She intends to use a razor on the other leg........
:} :}
BOOM TISH
(The PM exits stage left to the sounds of puzzled silence).

[Brian Abraham]

Scotty, plain (hamburger) perhaps, definately not plane. As applied to aviation the paper was absolutely correct. What do they teach kids at school these days? :ugh:

[compressor stall]

Did anybody else notice the bodyguards' belated pixelling on CH10's newsbreaks as Sunday unfolded?

Ooops!

[Chronic Snoozer]

Please indulge my thread drift. I've always understood PAN to have come from the French 'panne' meaning 'breakdown' originating from the language of vehicular transport.

Any other thoughts?

[PLE Always]

G'day,

Here's a still from The Australian web site.

http://network.news.com.au/image/0,10114,5420483,00.jpg

Catcha,

PLE..

[Buster Hyman]

Yes Compressor stall, I did. I watched that right after reading the front page of the Sunday Herald Sun & there was one of them right next to Johnny Flak Jacket!!!:}

Now, the ADF would like us all to forget his face, you know, like a dentist!!!:rolleyes:

[ScottyDoo]

His protection wasn't much chop anyway, photo or not - the image has him looking at the ground while he's escorting Imperial Grand Wizard Howard off the "plane". Maybe checking for landmines???

Shoulda just sent the journos ahead of them...


Yes, a plain is a type of burger, B. Abraham. Well done, you spotted the short-coming in my slagging of the media. You needed to use a little of what we sometimes call "poetic licence"....

[Brian Abraham]

Scotty, I just thought it best to leave invective directed at the media to the times when they write wrong, and not when they write right, if you get my drift (and thats not port or starboard) :)

[Like This - Do That]

Just as an aside .... how many more days 'in theatre' does the PM need before he can get himself an AASM etc?






Has anyone seen me coat?

[Buster Hyman]

Funny you should say that LT-DT. The CNN report is claiming it was his first visit!!!

I'll bet he'll be on the phone to George to get that corrected!;)

[Flight Detent]

I noticed in the video footage of the PM running down the ramp door to escape the aircraft, that the slow-moving ramp door was fully open when the footage started, with other persons moving around the rear of the aircraft! My point is this looks to me like a media 're-run' of the evacuation for the benefit of the cameras!

Anyway, it was a J-model C130, who knows what happened aboard, certainly not the pilots, and since there is no Flight Engineer on this model, I thinking nobody knows whats happening when something goes amiss, as it did this day!

Cheers, FD :confused:

[SM4 Pirate]

From crikey.com today:
2. Howard's C-130 dash: all the angles
Crikey's aviation cinematography expert writes:

I watched ABC TV's lead news story last night re John Howard's in-flight "emergency" in Southern Iraq -- watch the video here -- and have reached the conclusion that the story may have been something of a contrived beat-up.

As the narrative tells it, the plane filled with smoke and was diverted to an emergency landing. We are then treated to footage of the Prime Minister running from the plane accompanied by bodyguards, amidst apparent alarm and looks of deep concern etc.

But it's all humbug, as careful examination of the footage shows:

One cameraman got out of the aircraft before the PM, in sufficient time to capture him exiting the aircraft. Another cameraman was inside the aircraft, near the rear ramp, and panned with the PM’s party as they ran from the aircraft. However, cut to the second camera as the PM exits the plane, and the first cameraman inside the plane is nowhere to be seen. Very strange – or were there several takes of this?

Camera on ground pans with PM and bodyguard as they run past, and we then see numerous passengers calmly walking away from the aircraft with their baggage –so they must have exited the aircraft well ahead of the PM and escort. Which, given the apparent emergency, is unlikely.

If you look at the aircraft's engines in the background, the propellers have almost come to a halt when the PM and bodyguard emerge running down the ramp. As anyone familiar with C-130 aircraft will know, it takes well over a minute from the time that the pilot cuts the engines until the propellers actually stop. So the aircraft was stopped on the ground for some time, and had initiated normal engine shutdown, well before the PM was bundled off.

Add to that the fact that only the PM and escort are running – everybody else in shot appears calm and relaxed – and the odour of rodent becomes overwhelming.

[roamingwolf]

Ahhh An election year !!

[Buster Hyman]

Ahh, I've just found out that there was no need to exit suddenly & the PM was quite relaxed on board, enjoying RAAF hospitality when he was told that his shares in Aussie Reactors.com had dropped 3% on the ASX!:eek:

[ScottyDoo]

B. Abraham, sorry you still don't get it. Yes, the media spelt "plane" correctly but the use of the word "plane" is traditionally held, by many pilots, to be a misnomer.

The play on words using the word, "plain", and likening it to a burger really only works using the spoken word, rather than the written. I thought I'd give it a go anyway but you've defeated me...


As an aside, there are countless examples of the media consistently using incorrect terminology or application to suit their own agenda, despite widespread public knowledge of the proper version.


LT-DT, he's got himself an ICB on his jacket now...

[Hempy]

From circa 1994

"We call them aircraft in this country, boy. You shave wood with a plane"

[Brian Abraham]

Sorry Scotty and Hempy, I come from a generation a long time before '94. I know language is something that evolves with time and meaning change (gay for example, I remember when all pilots would proudly proclaim to be gay, and if they were not, wished they were). Some one should tell Websters what the meaning of 'plane' is in the modern lexicon. When I asked my gunner "Can you see any planes?" I dont for one minute think he assumed I was talking about trees or things that shave wood.

WORD HISTORY The plane in which we fly is properly named for a very important element of its structure—the wing that keeps it in the air. But the story behind this name is slightly complicated. To begin with, plane in the sense of “winged vehicle,” first recorded in April 1908, is a shortened form of aeroplane. In June of that year plane appeared in a quotation from the London Times that mentioned one of the Wright brothers. Aeroplane, first recorded in 1866, is made up of the prefix aero–, “air, aviation,” and the word plane, referring to the structure designed to keep an air vehicle aloft. Originally the plane in such contexts was imagined as flat, hence the choice of the word plane; in practice this surface must curve slightly in order to work. The word aeroplane for the vehicle is first found in 1873. The first recorded appearance of the form airplane in our current sense, which uses air– instead of aero–, is found in 1907. An American flies in an airplane while a Briton still travels in an aeroplane, but both can catch a plane.

[Swingwing]

What a load of utter horse%^&t that crikey stuff is. Some people are so blinded by their hatred of Howard and Bush that they will believe almost anything if it could possibly put either in a bad light.

Clearly the conspiracy theorists out there have absolutely zero idea about anything to do with military operations - either ground or air - as the ignorance displayed in some of the above is quite breathtaking. The people pontificating quite obviously have no experience of either C-130 operations or close personal protection tactics. Since I've been involved extensively with both, here are some facts:

One: There was quite clearly smoke in the cabin during the flight. The vision shows it. Plenty of journos attest to it. The crew properly decided to make an immediate return for landing.

Two: The prop brake in the Herc clicks in at something like 30-ish % RPM (from memory). If the props are still spinning in the TV vision, then the aircraft has been shut down within around 60 seconds or so.

Three - and more important. Once the ramp and door were opened (presumably just after landing) the smoke in the cabin would have cleared. By the time the aircraft parked, the smoke wasn't the problem.

The emergency at that point was no longer aircraft related. It was that the Prime Minister of Australia had just made an unplanned arrival at a relatively insecure airfield in what is basically bandit country. OPSEC had been broken by his presence there half an hour previously. He's now sitting in the middle of the tarmac in a lame duck aircraft. All it takes is one crazy with an RPG and a mobile phone to realise that he's back and the aircraft is broken, and there's trouble.

So, the SAS close protection team no doubt did what all professional CPP teams would do. You establish contact with whatever assets you have on the ground. That may take some time - although given the still-moving props, not much in this case. They secure an area - and once that's done, you move the principal there - as fast as you can and with heavy force around him / her. That's what was happening when the PM was moved - you can see the CPP operatives with their hand in the small of his back pushing him along.

Who cares whether Joe Blow cameraman (or anyone else) got off before the PM or not? It is of absolutely no relevance whatsoever - he isn't a target, the Prime Minister is.

Any suggestion that the SAS were sitting around inside the aircraft doing their hair while the PM's office organised a photo op (with multiple takes, no less) is not only insulting to their professionalism, it is so naive as to be ridiculous. Some people need to get a grip.

There, I feel better now. Rant over.

SW

[Hempy]

Please indulge my thread drift. I've always understood PAN to have come from the French 'panne' meaning 'breakdown' originating from the language of vehicular transport.

Snoozer, correct with the French origination of "PAN", similar to "MAYDAY", which comes from the French word m'aidez - meaning "help me". :ok:

[ACMS]

Swingwing.........excellent post, nice to read some informed information on Pprune. By the way the C130J with it's new Engines and Props shutdown in Feather don't they? this would mean they only spin for ( i'm guessing ) 30 seconds max. I used to fly the F50 and the spin down from feather was quite quick, a lot quicker than the good ol F27 !!
So this means the aircraft was stopped for even less time than a lot of Labour voters here think?

[lowerlobe]

I’m not so sure Swingwing…

One: There is no argument that there was smoke and that they had good reason to land ASAP.

Two: Irrespective of the time needed to stop the props if you had a VIP such as the PM of YOUR country then as you descended you would have arranged for an area to be secured for disembarkation.

I imagine one of the main concerns would be anti aircraft fire of different sorts during the approach as well as the source of the smoke.

However, once you have landed you would not wait any longer than you had to before you got the PM off the aircraft, which is a nice target. I imagine that you would have the PM in a location in the aircraft so that he and his protective group would be able to get off the aircraft first and into a safer environment not the cameraman.

Why then were the media able to get off first and film?

If the media were filming it would attract attention don’t you think and that’s the last thing they would want. If there was a risk why did they allow the media to jump off first and film it?

If then it was safe enough for the media to stand around and film why was the PM being rushed?

If there was no threat from the aircraft why wasn’t there a vehicle for him to get into right at the ramp?

No doubt at all that there was a problem and they had to take action but sorry Swingwing but this looks like someone has decided to take advantage of this for PR.

[Minimbah]

And what no one who is posting on here knows is what the current Threat Assessment was or what intelligence information the CPP blokes had. It's no good trying to second guess the SAS guys - they are going to do what they trained to do and bugger the media!

[lowerlobe]

We all know how good our SAS are and I believe they are second to none.

BUT do they tell the PM what to do IF he wants a photo op?

[Keg]

Geez lowerlobe, with a conspiracy theory like this you'll be telling us shortly that it was actually the yanks that rigged the aircraft on September 11. :rolleyes: :ugh:

I'm no military expert but I can think of a dozen reasons why there would be both a cameraman and a whole bunch of other diggers outside the aircraft before the PM comes running out. How about securing the area first? Allow thirty seconds of that and then bring the PM out. More than enough time for a journo with a camera to also get out and so some filming. :ugh:

[lowerlobe]

No conspiracy theory at all...If they were trying to secure the area with troops do you think they would let the media get in the way?

I have also said that there was obviously smoke..There is no way the PM would stage something like that especially in an environment like Iraq.

All I am saying is that at the end of the day the PM is a politician....

[Buster Hyman]

...and he's from Sydney....:ooh:

[Swingwing]

As I said before:
Clearly the conspiracy theorists out there have absolutely zero idea about anything to do with military operations - either ground or air - as the ignorance displayed in some of the above is quite breathtaking.

Lowerlobe - you've made my point perfectly, thank you.

Since you and your mates were kicked off the Cabin Crew forum you've been all over D&G and made it your business to have an opinion about absolutely everything, even when, as in this case, you quite clearly don't have a clue as to the facts. You are now sitting at your computer on the other side of the world, peddling conspiracy theories, with absolutely zero understanding of military operations - simply because you want to bag the PM.

Your post is riddled with "I imagine" and "don't you think" and "you would have".

How do you have the faintest idea what would or would not have been done? Are you a military pilot? Have you worked with trained CPP operatives? Have you ever been to Iraq? Have you worked in a Minister's office?

I have done all these things, but even I don't really know what happened - because I wasn't there. However, unlike you, my starting proposition is that the professionals involved would not have allowed themselves to be used in a political stunt. They take their jobs far more seriously than that I can assure you.

Also, don't forget that the Chief of the Defence Force was also on the aircraft - you think the guys doing the business weren't thinking about that as well?

You work in Cabin Crew, right? I don't get on here and start banging on about how Sh%*t the CC service on QANTAS is (although god knows I'd love to) but I don't really understand your issues, and so I don't feel it's my place to criticise the way you do your job without having all the facts.

I know this is a rumour network, but perhaps you could see your way clear to extending the military professionals in Iraq the same courtesy?

Just a thought.....

[lowerlobe]

Thanks Swingwing for the post and let me make a few salient facts..

1: I did not post a conspiracy theory…

2:Your right I am cabin crew …so are you saying that because of being cabin crew I am unable or of insufficient intelligence to make a comment or have a view on a matter or is that the sole domain of pilots?

3:You fall into the trap a lot of people do that cabin crew have had no experience at all of any other aspect of life. To say that I have “absolutely zero understanding of military operations” is arrogance personified. I would suggest that assumptions are best left alone unless you are sure of whom you are speaking to.

You’re right I did include phrases like… "I imagine" and "don't you think" and "you would have" because as with you I was not there. This does not preclude any thoughts as to what may have happened. I did not attack any of the people serving in Iraq but I have a healthy cynicism of politicians.

Let’s play the ball and not the man…

[Keg]

Righto LL, I'll play that game.

I imagine that the RAAF guys would have responded absolutely appropriately to smoke on board an aircraft and wouldn't have mucked around after having landed in bandit country setting up for a photo op.

I imagine that landing back at the place I'd just left knowing that it was bandit country wouldn't be a nice feeling and that the safety of the VIP would be the one and only priority. I imagine that the SAS would tell any journo or advisor requesting a re-stage for a photo op to get lost in very strong language and that whilst on the ground in bandit country that they are in charge and not the PM.

I imagine that anyone who believes that our ADF would be complicit in such a way to re-stage the evac- particularly the CDF who if you recall was the one to blow the whistle on the children overboard scandal when CAF- is deluding themselves and searching for any reason to bag the government.

I imagine that harbouring such a strong dislike for the PM such that an individual looks at everything he does through that prism must make for a very sad lifestyle.

[Buster Hyman]

3. The media, having an innate ability to get into a pulitzer prize winning position within a sniff of a story, had cameras rolling & seeking out the best vantage spot first.

[ScottyDoo]

Lowerlobe, you should consider quitting while you're still able to salvage some dignity. You obviously have very little idea of what you're talking about here. An opinion on Howard's motivation for getting off the aircraft is one thing, but watching you digging your own hole about so many things which are so far out of your realm is becoming embarrassing.

Why is it so difficult to picture the ramp opening and some cameramen piling out in time to catch the PM (who is reported to have been in the cockpit, on a headset) as he de-planes moments later?

By the way, the PM would never have been at that airfield in the first place if the location hadn't been deemed relatively safe at the time.

Whilst not saying there was no threat at all and whilst acknowledging that timely action was a factor, the threat assessment was obviously such that the actions on returning to the field could, believe it or not, be taken with a moment or two to think about what they were doing instead of just star-bursting off the aircraft in the sort of screaming, hysterical frenzy that some people here seem to think is the only possible natural response.



Brian A: Respect to you for your privations of the past. In more recent times, punishments have been administered to those of military beginnings for referring to an aircraft as a plane. Said punishments were often doled out with the reminder that "only carpenters use planes" or "a plain (pronounced "plane") is a type of hamburger".

I'll not belabour the point but might add, if I may, that you may want to be careful should you ever wish, in these modern times, to refer to your tail-gunner.

[maxgrad]

AAAAAAAAGH!
Lowerlobe,
You raise the question that other/another poster(s) are assuming that cabin crew are dumb/stupid/silly. Well frankly, no, the statement, the way I read it is that in another's opinion you may not have the experience or knowledge to make comments on this topic in the areas you are.

For my part I'm guessing that the media may have been in situ at the field already,(having read that the Herc blasted off from there with the PM on board).

[Pinky the pilot]

A qualification; I am not now, nor ever have been a member of the Australian Armed Forces. However, over the years I have been associated on occasions, and /or worked in other areas with a few former members of the Australian SAS.

One impression that I have from those occasions is most vivid.

Any suggestion that any member of the SAS would allow themselves to be used in any sort of PR stunt as may possibly be have been even slightly alluded to in some previous posts is absurd, ridiculous and indeed would be deemed offensive!

Anyone suggesting otherwise would be IMHO 'playing with fire.'

[Brian Abraham]

Scotty, no mention of tail gunner, merely gunner.

punishments have been administered to those of military beginnings for referring to an aircraft as a plane

Must be a RAAF thing. One of the military services in which I served referred to them as planes all the time. That ranged from single engine put puts, to fire exhausting heavy metal. Even had people whose title was "Plane Captain" and it wasn't the guy who sat in the front seat. They marched to a different beat obviously, very little is ever cast in stone. :)

[Swingwing]

Sorry to return to this topic, which has already been done to death.

However, I thought it was worth posting this excerpt from The Australian's Media section today - written by the newspaper's political editor Dennis Shanahan, who was there...

It was a highly sensitive issue for media organisations and was to result in a dramatic air emergency for Mr Howard and nonsensical conspiracy theories about media management.
As the journalists were being told of the secret trip, Fairfax and News Limited managements were drafting a demand to the Prime Minister that he buy a big enough jet to include the media on all his overseas travel.

Concerned by the death of one journalist and the serious injury of another while they covered Alexander Downer's visit to Indonesia, the newspaper companies were putting extraordinary demands to Howard.

As well, the media coverage of an emergency landing in Iraq involving Mr Howard became the subject of an absurd conspiracy theory on websites that was picked up by Channel 7's Weekend Sunrise program and talkback radio.

......As the Hercules climbed rapidly, the smoke thickened in the back of the plane and the fumes intensified. The pilot declared a PAN - possible assistance necessary - emergency, one step down from a mayday call, banked the huge aircraft and headed back to the runway. The SAS troops, officials and media had to remove their helmets and put on emergency plastic hoods with five minutes of oxygen. The journalists had been briefed the day before on the use of the gas hoods as well as gasmasks for Baghdad because of recent chlorine gas attacks.

The media was also told the security detachment's prime objective was to protect the Prime Minister in case of emergency or attack. When the plane shuddered to a halt on the Tallil tarmac, everyone responded immediately and professionally. SAS troops poured out the back door and set up a security perimeter, Channel 9's Jessop ran on to the tarmac to film the incident while Channel 7's Hunt filmed the Prime Minister coming from the cockpit at the front.
They acted instinctively and independently, with Hunt not even realising where Jessop was when he left the plane. The other media got off the plane before Howard because they were closer to the exit. A ring of SAS soldiers formed closer to the Prime Minister as his personal guard rushed him from the plane. Nobody knew the cause of the smoke, what might happen or what threat there could have been outside the aircraft.

When at a safe distance along the tarmac the journalists interviewed Howard and Houston, who played down the threat and praised the crew. After about 20 minutes, when security prevented mobile phone calls for fear of "bad people" monitoring the airwaves and discovering what had happened, the trip to Baghdad resumed on a second aircraft.

Reports, footage and audio of the emergency were made public in Australia after the original secrecy deadline passed.

Conspiracy theories immediately sprang up on websites,



You don't say.

There we go - hope that satisfies a few doubting Thomases.

SW

[Argus]

Lower old boy - you are not a professional pilot and therefore have no right to comment in this particular forum (see PPRUNE rules)........please p**s off !!

My dear chap, I fear it is you that has fallen into error. The forum rules (5th tab from the left at the top of the screen) contain no such provision.

That is not to defend or support LL's argument in any way. Indeed, as others have stated, I think he's a little out out of his depth here.

Nevertheless, he does have the right to post his point of view free from personal attacks - something that I hope both you and she/he take into account before responding.

[Angle of Attack]

I imagine that harbouring such a strong dislike for the PM such that an individual looks at everything he does through that prism must make for a very sad lifestyle.

Damn Keg! I better immediately harbour a strong liking for the PM and I'll have such a happy lifestyle after that!! :} :}

"Just geeing you up!:ok:

[ScottyDoo]

he does have the right to post his point of view free from personal attacks - something that I hope both you and she/he take into account before responding

Nah, let him have it. Both barrels.

[Buster Hyman]

Lieutenant Poxon, 27, joked last week from the RAAF's secret airbase in the Middle East. Lieutenant Poxon radioed the control tower in Talil and declared a "PAN"but there was added stress involved in returning to Talil.:D:D:D:D:=:=:=:D:D:D:D

[Point0Five]

Nice to see that he managed to land without a tail strike...

[Di_Vosh]

RAAF's secret airbase in the Middle East. :hmm:
But as for
there was added stress involved in returning to Talil. "It's still a combat zone."

oh PLEASE!! Tallil would have to be about the SAFEST part of the country!! :rolleyes:

[ScottyDoo]

That's not even a real photo of Lieutenant Poxon (obviously not his real name, either). Far too young looking.

We all know Herc jerks are fat, balding and much older with that worn-out look in their eyes. And that's just the loadies.

[Chronic Snoozer]

See! even the crew thought it was the frozos......well at first.

Have to say, good coverage all round for the RAAF - no naff reporting, a grounded interview with the pilot, all matter of fact and professional.

Nothing to see here boys, move along.

[Di_Vosh]

No worries Di Vosh. You'd be happy to fly in there?

Sure. I'm recently returned from there. I paxed into and out of there a few times over the past five or so months.
What's your intel source for Talil being safe?
My having lived and worked there until a few weeks ago!
Do you have access to the latest SAFIRE reports from Iraq?
I didn't get SAFIRE reports and don't know what they are. I'll go out on a limb and say that they are Surface to Air Fire reports. I'd suggest that YOU read them and find out when the last Surface to Air Fire happened at Tallil (I know the answer).
You do understand that the Australian Defence Force doesn't give full press briefings every time something threatening happens?
Of course. :hmm:

[blow.n.gasket]

WHAT PIFFLE!
Call that smoke!
Geez looked like a normal day on the flight deck of the old 146!:)

[roamingwolf]

PAF

Mate just a bit curious as what you describe as being "just next to".

I have never been to Iraq but these post got me interested so I looked up google earth the kids use and to me it looks like Tallil is more than 170 k's from Basra as the crow fly's.Not what I'd call just over the hill.

But I guess that if you were in Basra and wanted to lob a rpg or mortar into the field at talil for allah it wouldn't be that far to drive.

I don't know about what you guys call a combat zone bit i reckon that would just about describe the whole middle east not just Iraq(or Iran as well from the brits point of view)

[Di_Vosh]

Kind of like Basra (just next to Tallil) also being in the "safest" part of the country?
Who said anything about Basra??? And as Roamingwolf correctly pointed out, Basra is a Looong way from Tallil; a very different part of the country.
Would you be happy to not where your flak jacket and helmet going in there?
Funny you should bring that one up. Firstly, the A/C has to fly over other places than Tallil. Secondly, I've never seen a loadmaster wear one (do they know more than we do?).
Would you be happy flying into there on a civilian aircraft?

No, for the same reason. (flying over other parts of the country). BUT... I'd feel very safe doing circuits in a civilian craft over Tallil. :ok:

DIVOSH!

[Di_Vosh]

I'm not sure why you're going on about Basra. I'll put my original post up here again:

oh PLEASE!! Tallil would have to be about the SAFEST part of the country!!

No mention of Basra. You brought it up, and claimed it was "Just over the hill". It is a long way away; not only in distance, but in the mindset of the locals. This includes their attitude towards coalition forces, as well as what they're prepared to do about it. Basra is NOT Tallil!

I agree with you (shock) that Basra is NOT a safe part of Iraq, and if the report had been about the Herc landing back in Basra, I wouldn't have made my original comment.

So let be get this straight. You are basing the threat assessment to military fixed wing transport aircraft on what you thought you noticed as a passenger sitting in a cargo compartment that for all intents and purposes you can not see out of?


I apologise for putting in a "Throwaway line" about my observations on Loadmasters.

I'll state again, that I made my Threat Assessment on what I have seen, heard, and read over several months living and working in and around Tallil AFB! Knowing the layout of the airfield, and the (various things I wont go into on PPRuNe) I can say that I'd be quite happy doing circuits there in a Civilian aircraft.

How far out do you think the aircraft was when they executed the smoke and fumes checklist?

I have no idea. If they were at 4500', and GUESSING their likely departure profile, then I'm GUESSING not very far. Why don't you ask him and get back to me? Then your whole "distance from Tallil" argument may become relevant.

So if Tallil is this little safe haven in Iraq, how far out do you think that extends?

I don't know, and I'm not sure what it has to do with anything I mentioned earlier. At least circuit distance, obviously.

Do you walk around Tallil or Nasiriyah with no fire arm or body armour / helmet?

If it's all the same with you, I'd rather not discuss the weapons and armour posture of Australian soldiers at Tallil on PPRuNe. I will point out though, that Tallil had plenty of Civvy contractors who were unarmed and didn't wear body armour.

Since you don't believe Tallil to be a combat zone I assume you'll be donating $150( + your normal tax) for each day you spent in Tallil to charity (because by your own admission you don't deserve it)


Where did I say that I didn't believe that Tallil was a combat zone? How do you come to the conclusion "by your own admission you don't deserve it"?

I stand by my claim that you are confusing "Safe compared to XYZ" and "Safe"

Sure, you can claim that. But YOU are confusing my argument because I NEVER said that Tallil was safe compared to anywhere else. I said that Tallil was about the safest place in the country. You can infer from what I said that IMO Tallil was safe enough to do circuits.

being a pax in the cargo compartment certainly doesn't make you an expert!.

Where did I claim to be an expert on military fixed wing operations? I mentioned my paxing in and out of Tallil, because YOU asked if I'd be happy to fly into there.

I know better because I paxed into and out of there a few times over the past five or so months.

I never said that. Please read your own questions to me, and my answers to THOSE questions, and NOT what you thought you asked.

If you want to fly anywhere in Iraq in a civil aircraft then I personally think you have a death wish.

Your opinion! As I said, due to the reasons I mentioned earlier, I'd be happy doing CIRCUITS at TALLIL in a civilian aircraft. No other airports! Not between airports!

I think you're all talk and wouldn't do that.

I think you're wrong, and I would have if I had the chance ;)

Apologies to the other Prune readers who had to wade through all that!

PAF, I'd be happy to talk about this offline, where we can get into specifics (which I'd rather not do here). PM me if you like.

DIVOSH!

p.s. Your assumptions about me are around 50% correct. :E

[roamingwolf]

Boy it looks like some ego's on pprune are easily bruised.

PAF Don't take this seriously mate but your idea of just next to is different to most people.Mate As Divosh said Basra is a different animal and not just over the hill to Tallil .

I reckon that bankstown is just next to Sydney but bathurst is not and if you were walking or driving it is a lot longer than 170 k's and Divosh did not bring up Basra you did.

let it rest

to change the subject what would have happened if it was the US president in the same boat(or herc or whatever).

I reckon they would have had a exclusion area the size of Tasmania around the airfield.Hang on Ive probably done it now with all the military experts here

[bushy]

Looks like someone poked a stick into an ants nest.

[Di_Vosh]

PAF, mate, you’re beginning to get irritating!

Your first question: are you querying Roamingwolf or me? You seem to be asking me a question, but it’s his quote. (Thanks for the support btw, RW).

I’ll answer it anyway. I’ll sick of saying why I thought that Tallil was safe. Read it for yourself (AGAIN). They include reasons that I wont go into on PPRuNe. Basra is very different. One of the reasons I came to that conclusion was from hearing my friends and colleagues who were there every other week. Other reasons I’m not prepared to state here on PPRuNe. The bottom line is, is that Basra is NOT safe (IMHO).

On comparisons: Okay! :rolleyes: If you want to interpret what I said as a comparison FINE! But so what? Iraq can be a dangerous place. Tallil AFB, IMO is not! The captain as reported referred to Tallil as a combat zone. I felt that he was overdramatising that part of it, Based on MY OPINION of Tallil as a safe place to be!

Your English Comprehension skills are lacking. “About the safest” is NOT “The safest”, even though you seem to think that it is. I believe that there ARE safer places in Iraq than Tallil AFB (I’ve not been to them, however).

Comments like this:

Maybe it didn't feel like combat to you whilst sleeping down the back, but perhaps you could pay some respect to the aircrew whilst relaxing... I doubt it though, because "You KNOW".


Are pathetic. I’ve every respect for the aircrew for their ability to fly the aircraft, as well as landing during an inflight incident. They lose some of that respect when they make comments like referring to Tallil as a combat zone! (Btw, you still haven’t got back to me with all the SAFIRE reports in the Tallil area).

As for the rest of it: pure trash. From ONE comment I made, you can infer:

Maybe it didn't feel like combat to you whilst sleeping down the back, but perhaps you could pay some respect to the aircrew whilst relaxing... I doubt it though, because "You KNOW".
Maybe as an Army guy you can explain the risk that the Navy guys in the gulf face too? (I assume the Army bit was part of the 50% right! )
Many aircrew guys have served in the area you refer to (as your basis of "I know") but aren't claiming to "know" how the army guys do their jobs.
Although as was mentioned in a RAAF news article, the RAAF aircrew guys know what to do if taxiing down an Iraqi highway in a convoy of Hercs!!!
Perhaps there is a reason why we have Air Force Intel officers and don't just rely on Army Pax to assess the risk to tactical fixed wing transport aircraft???

What an incredible imagination you have!

But now that you mention it, why don’t you ask your Air Force Int officers for their detailed risk analysis on the hazards to aircraft in the Tallil circuit area from small arms, RPG’s, missiles, etc? Get back to me on that.

Other forces transport aircraft did the odd circuit there, you know. Did they have a death wish too? Were they all talk?

And your last:

Yes.. it's all fun and games until someone gets shot, Nothing like an Iraqi noise complaint!

PRICELESS! Did someone help you with that line?

I did my own risk assessment while I was there, and it came out safe for DIVOSH! :ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

Gentlemen; Is there any chance perhaps that you two will agree to disagree and return to the original subject, before the mods lose their patience and lock what was an interesting thread??:confused: :ugh: :mad:

[jaded boiler]

Di Vosh 1, PAF 0.

[ScottyDoo]

Isn't the entire country "still a combat zone"??

Are we still arguing about this?

Is the original argument still valid??

Should I sell up my shares in Quantas?

[Di_Vosh]

Does the "P" stand for "Pass" or "Pathetic"?

FFS, Give it a rest!

I've never come across someone who is so dogmatic about thinking that he is always right, and who must always have the last word! So desperate, in fact, that he'll grasp an opportunity to TRY to prove his point almost ONE MONTH after everybody else has moved on!! :ugh:

An incident occurred, where three people got injured, and you're using it to try to prove a point to me? Do you feel good about yourself? :yuk: :yuk:

I wont even bother refuting your latest effort (easy though that is). You're a disgrace! :=

[roamingwolf]

I reckon it must mean pathetic..paf give it a rest.Some other countries have had a change of government and the hole in the ozone layer is closing up again since this argument started

[bizzybody]

"We all know Herc jerks are fat, balding and much older with that worn-out look in their eyes. And that's just the loadies."

my father was a loady for many many years on the "E's" just before the J came in nd he had a full head of hair and i dont think he was fat. ( i dont think so anyway)

[Di_Vosh]

When I read the news report yesterday, I knew that this thread would be brought back to the top by P-A-F, who’s still angry at me (for over two months now) for laughing at his mate who made a stupid comment. :}

So let’s look put this in perspective. Those of you in Oz may be wondering why there is a sudden increase in reporting of attacks against Australians in Southern Iraq in recent weeks. The Australians moved into Dhi Qar province in around June last year. Up until the 23rd of April this year, the number of attacks against the Australians in Dhi Qar was…

(wait for it)…..

Zero!

That’s right. Nada, zip, nil! Not a single one! Then we had the one on the 23rd of April, one the next day (on the guys recovering the vehicle from the day before), and one yesterday. So now that’s three! That’s why there are suddenly news reports on all this!

Obviously, there ARE other attacks on Coalition and Iraqi forces in Dhi Qar, but they’re still very low in comparison with most of the other provinces. You only have to read the news to hear of Coalition and Iraqi deaths almost every day. Where are most of these? Baghdad, Anbar, Fallujah, etc.

An Nasiriyah and Dhi Qar hardly ever get a mention. (Btw, this is all open source stuff. Do some Googling if you don’t believe me).

And then let us look at these attacks that make Tallil such a DANGEROUS place to be (according to P-A-F). The one in late April was North of Nasiriyah.

The western outskits of An Nasiriyah for those who don't know is around 5 miles from the threshold.


Tallil is close to 10 miles to the SOUTH west of Nasiriyah. (Since P-A-F considers Basra “just over the next hill” (200km away), a doubling of distance and a 45 degree difference in direction is probably nothing). Nasiriyah is a town of almost 1 million people, so you can assume that the attack was around 20 km from Tallil. (In fact, the attack was greater than 20km away).

I can say from similar experience that a blast 20 km away wouldn’t have been heard in Tallil, let alone pose any danger to anything there.

So all of this, IMO, STILL makes Tallil one of the safest places to be in Iraq. And yes, I’ll continue to laugh at any w@nker who implies that there is added stress in landing at Tallil because “we’re still in a combat zone”.
Especially when he said that at a time before there were ANY attacks on Aussies in the area!

P-A-F, what makes you more amusing than your mate is your persistence in trying to “prove” me wrong (it’s obviously a problem for you that someone can have a different opinion). The thread was dead for 4 weeks before you posted the April news report; and dead another three weeks before you posted this one. All because you’re trying to try to make a point against someone who laughed at one of your mates!

Let it go mate. Nobody else cares about this except you (and me). I've suggested before that we do this via PM. Save the other readers and the Mods the trouble.

DIVOSH!

[Di_Vosh]

… and we’re back! :}

So let's start with:

You are creating an impression for the general public that operating an aircraft around Tallil is not operating "in a combat zone", and that operating into Tallil is no different to operating into Richmond, New South Wales.
Not quite! I’m saying that in my opinion, the province of Dhi Qar, and the area around Tallil is one of the safest in Iraq.

However, YOU are creating the impression to the general public that it isn’t safe to fly around Tallil due to attacks on ground troops taking place over 20 km away.

The fact that there have been attacks on ground troops is a testament that the local “bad guys” have both the willingness and the means to do so. Why not ask instead why there haven't been attacks on aircraft around Tallil (I can't go into the reasons here - the answer is there in the public domain)

And please don’t put words in my mouth. Just like I never mentioned Basra over a month ago, I’ve made no mention of Richmond, NSW.
You were a pax. Was the profile flown exactly the same as flying into Richmond? Probably a bit hard to tell from the cargo compartment I guess.

I’ve said this at least twice before, but you don’t appear to be listening. So, ONCE AGAIN, I’m NOT basing my opinion from being a pax; I’m basing my opinion on my having lived in Tallil for some months, and being clued up on the local threat environment. I’m still in daily contact with people there, and I keep up to date.
Well thankfully you don't do the threat assessments for the ADF, I’ve done more than my fair share, thanks very much, and one of the factors is the likelihood of the event occurring. That factor is affected by "many things" (that again I'd rather not go into here) as well as the history of such events in that area, so whether there have been any similar attacks in the past 12 months is significant.
you'd have had the guys flying circuits for fun on weekends and driving around in a Commodore so long as they still within B miles of the circuit area.

Okay… AGAIN, please read back to one of my previous posts. It’s not unknown for aircraft to do circuits there. There are no commodores in Tallil, but plenty of SUV’s, quad bikes, bicycles, pedestrians, joggers, etc.

And for your "a" through "g" questions and how they add all this “extra stress”? I don’t know. But I’d have thought that someone who has
passed a military pilots course, logged several thousand hours operating C-130's and was upgraded to a captain, undergone significant flying training to become qualified to operate into an area of operations as crew on a military aircraft, and has done so.
would be able to cope with the extra workload. Particularly as I'm assuming you'd do some significant pre-deployment training.

I await your reply. We CAN do this via PM.

DIVOSH!

[Hempy]

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/1773/noonecares3hc5hf.jpg

[Di_Vosh]

Thanks for that! That's the best laugh I've had all day!

[Hempy]

Thanks for taking it that way Di_Vosh, just trying to lighten the place up a bit :ok:

[roamingwolf]

PAF

mate isn't richmond just over the hill from east timor?

and it's just another hill or three to Afganhistan.

could be a bit of a problem pal if you are operating in and out of Richmond.with that road right next to the field and the sneaky taliban around just over the hill we better do a threat assesment.

Hempy can we get that newsreader a job with sbs?

[bushy]

Are you boys having fun?

[Nothing_but_blue]

I have been watching from a distance, enjoying the stoush between PAF and Di_V!!! I can understand why Di_V thinks that the threat at Tallil did not warrant the "combat zone" comment but I am assuming mate you did not actually have access to the SAFIRE reports. They however make you think. Without giving away too much, Iraq is one of those places where just when you think its all "hunky dory", you find its actually a scary pace to be! (yes...have done my time there). I know both Pox (the captain) and PAF rather well and although Pox is not one to "play down" a situation, he is sensible enough not to embarrass himself amongst his brethren. Thus, would not make such a comment if he did not believe it. PAF is just saying what he believes also, based on real Intel. (now if it was PAF on the aircraft he probably would be sucking in the fumes as he LOVES a durry or ten!....please don't tell me you have given them up!!!). Without meaning to drag this argument out too much, just because a place may look safe on external appearances, or even recent OBVIOUS activity, doesn't mean it is..as demonstrated perfectly every day in Iraq. Spend enough time there and you will come away, thinking "that was close".

[Di_Vosh]

G'day Bushy,
I'm having a ball! :}

I'm able to have a mature debate about a difference of opinion.
My opponent has to resort to ridicule and abuse!

N_B_B
Thanks for your input. You're correct in assuming that I did NOT read the SAFIRE reports. I'm pretty sure I said that a few pages ago, but no matter.
I do, however, get over 20Mb of all kinds of "stuff" (need I say more on this?) in my inbox EVERY day. Nothing of what I’ve read has changed my opinion to date re: Tallil.

I know about the fluid nature of Iraq. One of our subjects is on that very topic, with some tragic case studies included. :sad:

I "kind of disagree" with your last comment. But only because one persons "That was close!" is anothers "Did something just happen?". I'm NOT saying that you didn't have a "close one", btw, but you should know what I mean.

Anyway, I’m happy to discuss this further, but I’d rather not do it in the public part of this thread, or at all over email. So PM me if you like, as I really think that this thread is done (and I know Hempy and ScottyDoo agree! :} )

Cheers,

DIVOSH!

[Di_Vosh]

P-A-F, in your last two posts, you've added nothing to the topic except ridicule and abuse; not just to me, but others as well, one of whom posted almost a month ago.

YOU don't know what is in the "stuff" that I get every day. YOU also KNOW that I can't say what I get (here on Prune), so why attack that point?

You point out ONE comment that I made about SOMEONE ELSE as your defence to your own continuing diatribe against me! (Play the ball, and not the man).

As to "what's left to discuss"? Well, YOU obviously think there is, otherwise YOU wouldn't be striving for the last word in this thread! :ok:

DIVOSH!

P.S. No need for the link, thanks. I did the ADF Pilot selection at Tamworth a couple of years ago. I'm happy to make my own career choices. :cool:

[Nothing_but_blue]

Started life as a lively young thing with a wonderful future to look forward to. Actually went through some interesting times and then just got old, bitter and personal...