FTE (Jerez) Grads - Who has got a Job? [Archive]

F.O.E.

14th Mar 2007, 00:30

I will be the first to break cover then……….Off my course (we were the penultimate course to graduate in 2006) 4 have gone to cityflyer... one started in feb and the other 3 who went for BA started in march. That leaves 6 of us to go..... I know one guy is off in Malaysia doing instructing, one is in Ireland building hours to instruct, one is in Spain trying to crack the Spanish airlines, two have interviews with Logan air this month and I have an assessment with ryan air some time in the not too distant future........

the course before me most of them were bacon the self sponsored guys two are with cityflyer one at Gecat and I know one hasn't got anything but is waiting for the school to sort out flybe or logan...

course 48 I think most are with Flybe, one with cityflyer and one other is instructing.....

Oh marks out of 10 for FTE well I honesty most of us will bitch about the food and stuff but at the end of the day it wasn't too bad.... I managed to get fat on it.... or was it the beer!!! There is a good camaraderie at the school or well at least there was and I enjoyed many a night having a couple of scoops underneath the andalucian sky. The standard of ground school is good with many of the course averages 92% + and a high standard of flight instruction with well looked after planes.
Problems with the place really are the sims.... the hawker 737 haha which is a tad old and I must stress is getting replaced with a real 737 sim at the end of the year, but for the MCC it was more than adequate! The main problem I found with the school was a disparity in the way they treated the airline tagged students compared to the self sponsored guys and also the ambiguity that surrounds their recommendation process..... they seem to think once we have graduated we dont talk! However I hope that this will be sorted out with the reshuffle that seems to have occurred!

I spoke to a self sponsored guy from 52 who graduated this year and he said that they haven’t heard anything from the school but the Thomson guys who were then earmarked for flybe have now signed their contracts for Thomson (good bunch of guys too, I’m glad it worked out for them).

Good school though and the andalucian women are sexy as hell ;)

hope this helps im sure the other guys from the respected course will add bits too.

Gurney

14th Mar 2007, 09:22

C47: 1 has just finished his type-rating, 2 have job offers, and the other 2 have things in the pipeline.

Overall: Good training, good reputation, brilliant location, but recommendation process is a shambles and could do more to help people get jobs.

FlyUK

14th Mar 2007, 17:17

C41. 10 on course. 9 had jobs within 6 months. 1 paid for type rating with ryanair.

mustflywillfly

14th Mar 2007, 19:59

Chaps,

Thanks for your replies. I have applications in with OAT and CTC at the mo but am seriously condsidering FTE as the package seems good value. At the end of the day I want to get a job out of the investment. I think OAT is poss overpriced and CTC have a good gloss!

Hmmmm decisions decisions!

small_dog

14th Mar 2007, 20:23

Course 46 Integrated
2 Thomsonfly (self sponsored students who got selected whilst at Jerez - no money up front for the type rating, but a contribution towards the cost is taken out of the salary for the next 5 years)
1 BA (on a SSP salary scale)
1 Ryanair (paid for type rating)
3 still looking.
The final modular course also graduated at the same time and 1 guy is with Thomsonfly and another is with Eastern.
Regarding the marks out of 10, a bit tricky really as I've got nothing to compare it against. Most aspects are very good, some aspects could be a bit better but that's life really. Having since talked to people to went to other schools, I'm still quite sure that I made the right decision by going to Jerez (but that is just personal choice). If you are looking at a variety of schools, visit all of them and see where you feel the most comfortable.
:ok:

future captain

15th Mar 2007, 20:57

In what respect are they unfair, and who are they biased towards?

F.O.E.

15th Mar 2007, 21:36

In the cadet to management meeting (that are normally held every month!) just try and get a direct response off the person who decides this or did decided this, on how the process is conducted........ he will tell you it’s a simple process where they use the BA criteria (above 85% in the ground school and first time passes in the CPL and IR)! But its not…!!!!! another former student has already commented on how some people are put forward to BA ticking all the boxes in the above criteria whilst others aren’t!! Also if this is the criteria why are some students recommended with fails in CPL or IR and/or a partial in the other, whilst others are over looked? I know life isn’t fair,,,,,,,,, but for time you spend deciding if you should pay 93,000 euros to train at the establishment I wish the establishment would give you transparent recommendation process for you to work towards! Oh and I too think they are ever so slightly biased towards airline tagged students and they don’t seem to care if you ace or fail ground school…. The recommendation process (bar BA) all goes on the flying

Oh and one person who graduated with course 50 has just got Jet airways….. well done!! I dont think they have to pay for TR.

If you are interested in training in FTE....definitely go to the school and talk to some of the senior courses they will give you a feel of how things are!! BUT as someone who is currently still at the school said recently... "I would chose here again but only as an airline tagged student"

ALBATROSS 322

16th Mar 2007, 19:48

To give you a realistic assessment x/10 would require me to have trained at other institutions. I would nevertheless like to point out a few aspects of the training as follows:

(1) The overall quality of the training is quite respectable (groundschool very well organised / flying fairly well managed) with the exception of the MCC. It is great to see that someone has finally realised that the use of a Hawker HS737 simulator is inadequate for conducting the MCC and appreciated the need to “concentrate on Business and Project Development” (Many congratulations on this awakening! :) ) At the end of the day the course was completed without any delays.

(2) Ground instructors have been very friendly and helpful. Flying instructors, generally helpful and supportive (with some exceptions). Rest of staff also very friendly and generally helpful.

(3) As within any institution, final decisions tend to be made by a board. Although this board claims that all decisions are based on “BA style” criteria, this is not always the case. Having discussed the recommendation criteria at length with different “managers” it is evident that no 2 can agree on the same statements. To answer “future captain” they are unfair mainly in the respect that their requirements are not clearly stipulated and no one is clearly told what it is they assess (after having asked).
How can you strive without knowing what your aim is? – because it appears that acing Groundschool / passing the flying and MCC does not suffice. Obviously it would appear that it is all a matter of opinion and that each manager will adapt the criteria to his opinion!

(4) FINAL POINT: Ask yourselves this, do you really want to invest money into an organisation where more importance is attributed to 3 people’s opinion rather than your performance?
And for those of you who think that this is a generalisation and a load of **** please provide me with some sort of explanation as to why there are SO MANY “exceptions” out there?

Gurney

16th Mar 2007, 22:09

I remember hearing someone didn't get put forward to BA because they were deemed a training risk despite this person having passed CPL and IR first time. They had partialed 1 of the other 3 flying tests. Hardly a training risk. I want to add that this person had no personality problems or anything like that. Absolute shocker!

All you can do is take it on the chin and move on.

anotherspaceman

16th Mar 2007, 22:23

But sometimes there is a lot of luck involved. Sometimes the best candidates fail flight tests due to bad luck and the weakest pass due to good luck. FTE @ Jerez is a 14 month interview. The senior staff profile individuals and recommend them to where they think they will best fit.
Pay your money and take your chance! - its life

Crabbing

18th Mar 2007, 10:42

Those of you who made it to the airlines can appreciate the fact that being able to fly the perfect NDB approach or knowing everything about air law are the least important bits in being an airline pilot.
Everybody knows one or two guys in their airline who are very good pilots technically speaking but don't really fit in or even worse than that - no one wants to fly with them.
Where does this put the CRM and the safety of the flight?
Recommendations are based on overall impression.
The impression you made on the guys in Jerez is most probably the impression you are going to make on the guys in your airline.
Add to that the fact that recommendations are a matter of supply and demand at the time of graduation.

FrayCampbell608

19th Mar 2007, 12:27

So how was it for everybody? i had a good chat with the Chief Instructor, Bill i think his name was ?? but he seemes a spot on, modest guy. He said basically, if you ace all your exams and the flying, you will be recommended for a job. Seems to meake sense to me!!

What really appeals to me about Jerez is that it is purpose made campus (formerly BA training place apparently) and everything is included, apart from your shoes! Of course, a school coudl just offer that to get more students but they seem to have a good reputation and im sure the chap who wrote the book 'To Be an Airline Pilot' has done wonders for the schools name.

How well did everyone do, any gripes with the place??

All info is welcome and appreciated!

bennyboi75

19th Mar 2007, 13:50

hi guys, just wondering really what age would you recomend to actually apply for a place in FTE.. because i want to do it now but i don't want to get turned down and even if i did could i apply again????? oh and what is an airline tagged student??
thanks for the help

Headinclouds

19th Mar 2007, 15:05

Hi,

I did Modular Course, and it worked very well. Dont think its available at the moment. One thing I might just summise from my observations, while there.
The Recommendation is an informal opinion made by 3 or 4 Individuals. Nobody could figure the 'Recommendation' process out. You may all say it is similiar to a BA Process, based on Groundschool and Skills tests.etc. Should that be the case, please asks yourselves two questions:
1. Would you be prepared to part with a lot of Euro to become another potential victim of politics? and potentially seriously damage your Job Prospects........
2. Does FTE hold its reputation(which is a well respected one), based on this 'recommendation' process, or is it based on the High Standards of instruction/tuition?
(3...................Why do they bother with their selection process for entry, if these are the cases)

I, was not involved in this 'recommendation' scenario, as only did some modular training there, and from the start they will not recommend Modular students, which I knew and can understand. I found instuctors brilliant.

In relation to Flight Directors Comments, airlines often rely on these 'recommendations' as they have nothing else to go........apart from the odd personal recommendation, from fellow pilots, within their Airline.........
Is one CAA First Time pass the same as Another?

ask26

19th Mar 2007, 17:59

There are essentially 3 categories of FTE recommendation: The first two are very similar

Full Recommendation - What this means is that the airlines with which FTE have contacts with, i.e. Thomsonfly, FlyBe, BA, BA Connect, GB - when they are looking to recruit low hours pilots then FTE will put forward the names of these students with a full profile to the airline. This will often guarantee you an interview. After that you're on your own.

Partial Recommendation - Everything except BA, or turboprops only

No Recommendation - What it says on the tin. I know of people who have come here on the advice of parents and they aren't even interested, others with too much money and aren't prepared to put the hard work in. But when you are out there you can generally tell who those students are.

Then there are a few other airlines (such as Jet 2, First Choice (as was), Thomas Cook) that the school doesn't have any influence or formal links with but if you apply to them and mention FTE then they do rate your training more highly and your odds are improved. The rest is up to you.

After graduation support is limited, most courses have to do all the applications themselves. And with regards to airline tagged students, with nearly 50% in FTE being tagged - they are at an advantage in the recommendation scheme, in that as long as you perform well enough then should the initial partner airline back out, you almost automatically get a full recommendation (not always but almost).

152wiseguy

20th Mar 2007, 06:23

'After graduation support is poor, most of my course are having to do all the applications themselves.'

What you really mean you had to apply to airlines yourself no secretary?

Cpt. Chaos

20th Mar 2007, 12:30

Headinclouds.
Quote;
"I, was not involved in this 'recommendation' scenario, as only did some modular training there, and from the start they will not recommend Modular students, which I knew and can understand. I found instuctors brilliant."

This is not true, I was modular, and myself and another mod, were both recommended, and we both have jobs, one as a direct result of the recommendation.
Yes there are some politics involved I think, but overall it's not a bad process and they are highly thought of in the industry.

ComptonMakesMeDizzy

20th Mar 2007, 14:29

I was integrated and did get recommended. However, I do know for a fact that modulars were being recommended to Thompson for the 757 with 2nd series, 2nd attempt IR passes.

The whole thing is a lottery.

FrayCampbell608

20th Mar 2007, 14:56

So what on earth are FTE goign to do about it? Its very easy to be persuaded by glossy covers or smooth talking instructors, as you guys said, they are selling a product. Have any of you given feedback to FTE??

What have you guys heard about other airlines help in job hunting, in comparison?? Its a difficult game but i doubt it only applies to FTE.

Also the Pre-Approval process baffles me, are you meant to request it of the airlines whilst you are completely unqualified and prior to starting training.

Headinclouds

20th Mar 2007, 16:17

Is this not an informal case of discrimination?

Also This is a great system, BUT FOR ONE REASON:

Nobody I have spoken too, were openly given a description of this process(a process they were about to enter unaware), when they paid up their pony..or passed the 'selection'..............

This type of system seems to create a 'Spanish Mafia' type of Management within the Compound............

EVERYONE SHOULD BE AWARE OF THIS PROCESS, BEFORE ENTERING A SELCTION PROCESS, AND ALSO BE AWARE OF THE SECRETIVE ODDS, of success.........btw the numbers of recommendations seem to vary to the extreme, depending on the actual course ............(in my huble opinion)

Headinclouds

20th Mar 2007, 16:20

Capt Caos,

I stand corrected, that was what I was told before I started, and you are right some modular have been recommended since my course..............Either I am not bothered, have a job and all that, without the FTE assistance, but back to the point of this what seems 'Cruel' process......

vj-o

26th Mar 2007, 12:10

Hi,

just wandering if anybody know how the 'tagging' process works and how to go about getting 'tagged'?

Headinclouds

26th Mar 2007, 15:23

Whats Tagging?

anotherspaceman

26th Mar 2007, 19:22

Now some of you wannabes out there think that the whole airline system is designed to get everybody a job - well it's not!

Tagging - this is where the airline and FTE get together in the persuit of the best individual to SUIT the airline.

FTE want to be involved wth the airlines, which is why they don't do modular any more. They do take on self sponsor people, but only to make up the numbers - they wouldn't take em if the could go 100% tagged.

The deal is the airline and FTE advertise for recruits. FTE do phase 1 - 3 of selection - sorting the wheat from the chaff. Phase 4 is done by the airline - the final selection phase. Those that are successful pay their own way thru FTE - no risk to said company. If the student gets all the way thru with a reasonably acceptable performance they have a job at the end, if not, no recommendation then on your own. As there has been double selection then the failure to achieve recommendation rate is expected to be low.

Reasonably acceptable performance does NOT mean everything has to be passed first time!

In the end the students want to go to a school which will give em a job (i.e. FTE, who get their money). The school wants the money from the students and the airline wants the right guys/girls for them.

Might not suit you but..................

Look at www.flighttrainingeurope.com (http://www.flighttrainingeurope.com)

vj-o

26th Mar 2007, 19:45

thanks 4 the help anotherspaceman!:ok:

ftegrad

26th Mar 2007, 20:45

anotherspaceman,

I think you are certainly correct that FTE isn't that interested in self-sponsored cadets, and this shows.

It's no secret that SS cadets are treated as second-class citizens when it comes to prioritizing student's flights, tests, progress and even recommendations. However, I think it would be important for the school, and especially the finance department to realise that SS cadets do make up a large portion of the business, and they wouldn't want to lose that. Yet still, support for SS cadets remains poor.

What I will say is that the training at FTE is top notch. The instructors, both ground and flying, are some of the best teachers you could hope for. With their huge wealth of experience and nerves of steel, they are a real credit to the school.

Most people's problems lie with the management and their lack of "after sales support". So your remark that most students want to go to a school that will give them the best chance of getting a job is very true, in turn prospective may want to consider all their options.

I'll hold comment on the recommendation process for another rant.

anotherspaceman

26th Mar 2007, 22:38

Well FTE, glad you have graduated - congratulations!

As you appear to have agreed with me, it appears that it is indeed quite simple.

Remember that other institutions, such as Oxford, have their pecking order too.

the finance department to realise that SS cadets do make up a large portion of the business

Whilst this is true at the moment, it is an ever reducing proportion, which suits FTE

The SS students will eventually find it difficult to find a place at one of the major schools as tagging grows. Modular students are now experiencing difficulty finding somewhere to spend their cash.

It will continue like this until there is a downturn in the aviation industry when the boot will be firmly attached to the other foot. In the meantime FTE sees tagging as the best way forward for its business. If it produces only high calibre tagged students who go directly to an airline it will be more than happy.

fray bentos pielot

2nd Apr 2007, 21:11

Not being on a mixed SS and airline cadet course i can't really comment on the supposed prioritisation on the airline boys vs. the ss guys. However on my SS course i saw no evidence of other courses taking priority over us.

I feel the school do a fair job in getting people interviews, not an amazing job but a fair job. They never claim they will get people jobs, the best they can do is provide interview chances. It's then up to the individual. Also, just cause FTE or any other FTO have "contacts" doesn't mean you shouldn't apply to every other possible job. You have to help yourself in this industry.

I'm sure OAT and Cabair offer similar opportunities to all thier students although i have heard airline cadets at OAT do get some priority. Maybe an OAT grad could provide some insight into this.

With a lot of luck and a lot of money the jobs are out there.

CrazyMalx

8th Apr 2007, 09:15

Just returning to the original thread a little - course 51 graduated in December and as of today we are:

4 pre-approved students with BA CityFlyer, on the RJ in Edinburgh and just about on the line now

2 self-sponsored picked up by BA CityFlyer, one started last week, the other in the holding pool, both for the RJ in Edinburgh

1 self-sponsored picked up by Connect but now with FlyBe, in type rating

1 self-sponsored just finishing type rating with Aer Lingus

1 self-sponsored starting type rating with RyanAir next week.

The other 3 graduates (also self-sponsored) are still waiting, though 1 has a sim check this week with BA and another a sim with RyanAir sometime soon.

Overall not bad for four months after graduation. At least four of the self-sponsored guys have directly benefited from the school's recommendations - but... there's a fair amount of ill feeling both towards the school's after-graduation support and the recommendation process.

We as a course had the process explained to us personally by management in an hour-long question and answer towards the end of the course - but, even then, if you look at the empirical evidence of exactly who got what and with what results in their flying tests, it's sometimes difficult to follow through the logic, and to tie up what we're told with what actually happens. Inevitably, some people are left feeling very disappointed and disillusioned with the whole thing - just look around this forum for proof of that!

Undoubtedly, if you can get yourself on a pre-approved scheme, that's the way to go.

Divet II

9th Apr 2007, 18:38

We graduated in April 2006. Out of 7 (all self sponsored):

3 got GB airways A320/21
1 got Thompson Fly 757
1 got Logan Air on the Saab
1 is doing his A320 type rating at the moment for My Travel
1 has got interviews and sim rides coming up.

I personally dont have any complaints bar the usual food etc. Some more challenging cage cricket teams to play against would have been a bonus though. :}

Well done everybody on Course 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51 and 52. It seems like a lot of you did well and have got jobs. :ok:

CaptainElectron

29th Apr 2007, 12:02

Hi,

When I visited FTE I asked a few students there on and off the Thomsonfly approved scheme and they told me "it's a bit of a joke" and that the airline "messed us around"... and that it's not worth being on these approved schemes considering that if you do get a recommendation you have more choice?

ppl_student

29th Apr 2007, 17:56

Do many self sponsored students get jobs with airlines which are not one of the "partner airlines". i.e. not through a recommendation to a partner airline? If I was to apply to say, easyjet or bmi, what kind of chance would I stand after having been to FTE?

ppl_student

9th May 2007, 20:02

Do any of the "partner airlines" make you pay for type rating?

2FoxtrotEcho

14th Aug 2007, 18:18

Hello,

Having Graduated a few months ago i believe, the FTE reccomendation process in my opinion is a waste of time and i am still not sure how it works. But i do know that i worked my a*se off for the whole 14months out there to recieve no reccommendation as they thought i didnt put in enough effort.

Got 1st time cpl/ IR Worked the hardest out the course with my MCC partner and still nothing.

Where as there were people on the course who Messed up cpls and IR's Turned up to sims twatted and they still all get reccommended so where the logic is in the whole thing is beyond me!!!

I didnt go to FTE expecing to get a reccommendation but it is still dissappointing that when you really try hard they leave u high and dry trying to find a job.

I wouldnt Reccommend anyone goes to FTE just on the hope of a reccommendation, but i would reccommend to go because the instructors ground and flying are second to none!!!!

2FoxtrotEcho

16th Aug 2007, 12:54

ppl_student

Some people manage to complete the course in the required hours
i only know of a few people who dont, and it tends to come after partialling or failing a flight test, and if you fail some of the training flights i think i was between 5 and 11 hours overflown on the course. If you get a ppl before the course starts which maybe benificial, then you can have a reduction on the dual hours needed in the warrior.

A819

7th Jan 2008, 21:19

Hi guys

Did any of you take advantage of the loan deal with BBVA ?
If so can you tell me what the repayments are like and for how long, also what do you need to secure the loan (house?)

Thanks

propilot9

25th Jan 2014, 09:45

Could somebody kindly share on update on this matter and explain how FTE graduates are doing these days? I've been reading those with at least an ICAO level 4 Spanish have ended up in Vueling, a few in Volotea and some in Ryanair, Jet2 as well. Is this correct?

Could a few current self-sponsored graduates of this year share their experiences?

Cheers!

drivez

25th Jan 2014, 17:43

Slightly skewed in the last 2 years. A lot of courses are filled with emirates, cityflyer, BA aer lingus etc.

BA guys are just starting, Aer Lingus have done well and I believe most (all?) are now on line, emirates steady flow on to 777 type ratings. I've heard whispers of one or two getting Jet2 pilot apprentice but don't quote me. I know of 3 at Ryanair, a few have got volotea and Vueling (requires Spanish) and neither is assured.

Flybe guys who were there, don't have jobs. A lot of self sponsored without jobs though as well and not a great deal in the way of companies queuing up to hire as was the case a few years back. It's tough out there but looking up.

Long story short don't go self sponsored and think there will be a job at the end of it. Training is top notch at FTE but know what you're getting in to. In a few years when things are on the up maybe, but right now don't unless your sponsored. Im sure the same holds for most of the schools.

_ShIfTy_

26th Jan 2014, 19:00

6 FTE grads I know have got into Jet2, I was self sponsored and got in.

BWSBoy6

15th Feb 2014, 12:50

I'm going at the end of Feb for interview/ assessment. I'm self sponsored so fingers crossed. So far dealings with FTE Jerez have been very impressive and professional.

saladdodger

15th Feb 2014, 15:40

Jet2 apprentice position open again? anyone have any experience of the process from last time or information that cant be found from the advert? Be interested to hear what salary is on offer to the apprentice's

Megamc

27th Feb 2014, 09:05

none
you have to pay your course :/

_ShIfTy_

27th Feb 2014, 09:11

No you don't

Megamc

27th Feb 2014, 09:18

Yes, you have to, I'm sorry, but i have just talking with they, I live in Malaga, I can not do it becouse I cannot pay it, so if you have about 40.000 € , and you pass the test.
they can provide funding, but you will have to also pay.

From ftejerez: (FTEJerez and Air Traffic Controller (ATC) Training | FTEJerez (http://www.ftejerez.com/ftejerez-and-air-traffic-controller-atc-training))
"Course Price

FTEJerez’s FerroNATS mentored ATC course includes:

All required training materials.
Full uniform.
AESA Student Controller Licence issue fees.
Accommodation on campus, including single occupancy bedroom, with en suite bathroom, air conditioning and internet connection*
Unlimited access to all facilities on campus: gymnasium, swimming pool, social club, sporting facilities, crew room, game room…
Breakfast, lunch and dinner every day of the week throughout the whole course.
VAT included where applicable.
Our all-inclusive price is: €46,865.

Course price without accommodation: €39,500."

magicmick

27th Feb 2014, 13:24

Looks like there’s a bit of confusion going on where ShIfTy is referring to the Jet2 Pilot Apprenticeship where the successful applicants work in various Jet2 ground departments for 12 months (receiving a salary) before they attend a fully Jet2 funded Boeing 737 type rating and go on to fly as a (salaried) Jet2 pilot.

The candidates do have to fund their own way through to CPL and MEIR with MCC and JOC.

Megamc seems to be referring to something completely different.

_ShIfTy_

27th Feb 2014, 13:40

Yup, I was referring to the Jet2 Pilot Apprenticeship.

Megamc

27th Feb 2014, 16:17

:ugh: UPSSSSS sorry :O

magicmick

27th Feb 2014, 17:24

No worries, I didn't even know that FTE did any ATC training, I thought that they were solely into pilot training. Have a good evening guys.

BWSBoy6

28th Feb 2014, 15:58

Having just had an offer from FTE I've now got the dilemma whether to gamble and SS. I'm so keen to get behind the joystick (:O) that I might just jump in. However, a mate suggested that I try for Easyjet MPL.

sapco2

28th Feb 2014, 17:04

BWSBoy6, my son had the same dilemma with a training offer from FTE but he elected to take the Modular route instead saving himself in excess of £40,000. He reduced his training time by almost 5 months too. The FTE course takes about 14 months however he completed the entire syllabus in just over 9months - granted he had a PPL already.

It took him another 4 months to find a job but he is now very happy to be working at Jet2 on their pilot apprentice scheme.

G-F0RC3

28th Feb 2014, 17:58

...my son had the same dilemma with a training offer from FTE but he elected the SS route instead saving himself in excess of £40,000. He reduced his training time by almost 5 months too. The FTE course takes about 14 months however he completed the entire syllabus in just over 9months - granted he had a PPL already.

Is SS an acronym for self sponsored? If so, I don't understand your post, and think you might be confusing "self sponsored" with "modular"? There are lots of self sponsored guys training at FTE. It's my understanding that the terminology means the guys find the (not insignificant) funds themselves and aren't tagged to any particular airline.

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? :p

sapco2

28th Feb 2014, 18:06

Hi G-FORC3, yep modular is what I should have written, so have edited the post to reflect that.

magicmick

28th Feb 2014, 18:10

Looks like sapco2 has edited their original post. Out of interest sapco did your son train at Gloucester? I trained there a while back but I'm aware that one of their students has got onto the Jet2 apprenticeship. Either way congratulations and good luck to him, I guess he'll be starting the type rating late this year.

sapco2

28th Feb 2014, 18:20

Bristol GS
Hour building UK, Channel isles, & France
Airways flight Training CPL/IR
European Skybus MCC
Oxford Aviation Academy JOC

BWSBoy6

28th Feb 2014, 18:22

Hi G-FORC3. Yes, SS meant self sponsored and I (well, parents) am funding the not inconsiderable fees. It's the 14 months course and sadly, I'm not tagged to an airline, I'm just passionate to learn and to get into the business some how.

Congratulations sapco to your son from me too. It's a tough old world out there and it sounds like he's done very well. Excellent news. :D

magicmick

1st Mar 2014, 12:27

Hi, obviously not the person that I was thinking of though it's good to see the modular people getting a good look in. Judging from other comments that people have made in other threads Jet2 are a very reasonable bunch to work for with a lot of very satisfied and settled employees, I wish your son and his colleagues we'll, I'm sure he is having and will continue to have an absolute blast working for them.

Halfwayback

1st Mar 2014, 12:51

I removed your post regarding the modular route for no other reason that it was irrelevant to THIS particular thread. Please re-read the title of the thread!
That debate / discussion has been covered many times and raising it in such threads just leads to regurgitation of the usual diatribe.

Apologies gracefully offered and accepted. The other removals were by another Mod - but I would have done the same!

Now - back to the thread please

HWB

BMH

10th Nov 2015, 20:24

Any updates on recent FTE graduates on the Job front?
It's been a while since the last update. Have FTE improved their airline placement service for SS graduates in recent months? as looking through old posts this seemed to be one of their downfalls?
Many thanks.

G-F0RC3

11th Nov 2015, 05:49

Based on what I've seen, 80%+ of self sponsored guys at FTE are getting airline jobs within a year of leaving. FlyBe and Aer Lingus have actually been coming to FTE to interview self sponsored guys, and Vueling have asked the school for guys to interview.

I imagine it's a combination of FTE actively trying to get people jobs as well as the airline industry's demand for pilots at the moment.

BMH

13th Nov 2015, 14:17

Thanks G-FORC3, thats great to hear! :ok:

EZY_FR

13th Nov 2015, 14:31

I was speaking to one of their advisors last week. He informed me that, out of the last 180 cadets, 161 have been able to land jobs.

EZY_FR

10th Jan 2017, 20:47

Hey all! Thought I'd post in this thread instead of starting a new thread on the same subject.

But to the point, I'm looking to start a course in June/July this year and I hope any current students or graduates would be able to tell us what the employment outlook is looking like at present for students at the school?

back.of.class

10th Jan 2017, 21:52

Thought you were on the EJ MPL why the change?

EZY_FR

11th Jan 2017, 06:33

Long story behind that back.of.class, one which id rather not go into on here.

FlyVeryHigh-

11th Jan 2017, 08:41

I know EZY and Norwegian have taken grads recently. Although I've seen a lot of guys on LinkedIn still looking for jobs quite a while after graduating. Good luck :)

annakm

11th Jan 2017, 12:23

FTE and Norwegian (OSM) have a partnership agreement to supply cadets.

FTEJerez cadets selected by OSM to join Norwegian Airlines as First Officers ? FTEJerez | News (http://ftejerez.com/news/ftejerez-cadets-selected-by-osm-to-join-norwegian-airlines-as-first-officers/)

KayPam

13th Jan 2017, 17:56

I attended the last graduation, and I believe only one person out of those graduating did not have an airline job at that point. I believe he may have been offered one since then. Whatever the actual statistics are, I would actually guess it's higher than 80% are being placed into jobs. EasyJet, Norwegian, Aer Lingus, Vueling, FlyBe and Thomas Cook actively recruit here (maybe I'm missing some?)...

Placed, or do they have to move their arses and find that job for themselves ?
Does this include modular students ?

SunsetSheepLandings

31st Jan 2017, 18:06

Hi all, see some of you were wondering about modular people. I have some people I know who know modular graduates from there and they've got jobs with aer lingus and thomas cook apparently.

MaverickPrime

1st Feb 2017, 12:54

Also know a recent FTE grad. All people in his class, integrated and modular, had jobs before they left.

WCA

19th Apr 2017, 15:35

Those guys are looking forward to pay 40K GBP for a A320 TR at EasyJet?

Pilot.v1

19th Apr 2017, 16:22

I think it would be better to find a hobby for all those who pay for their TR. They are not aviators. They are looking for "likes" and comments on ther "success stories" and nice photos in social networks. But talented guys who really love aviations struggling because all those (sometimes really stupid and lazy) guys already paid and take their seats. Do not change real things by this fake that you have to pay for your TR and LT! When everybody STOP pay to fly - everything will be good!

Thank you for attention.

AA757

19th Apr 2017, 16:52

AA757

19th Apr 2017, 18:18

I'am only talking about those few kids who paid nothing and end up posting pictures of themselves in a cockpit after their dad gave them 150K GBP. I'm not talking about the cadets who worked hard and had to make huge sacrifices to succeed.

Pilot.v1

20th Apr 2017, 10:17

The airlines should evaluate the personal qualities of the pilot, as well as his ability and quality of training, rather than the amount of money he has (even earned by hard working).
Supporting P2F will lead to big problems in aviation industry.

Bealzebub

20th Apr 2017, 14:58

planesandthings

20th Apr 2017, 19:18

They do! That process starts at the interview stage. You just need to ensure that your quality of training and satisfaction of their other specified requirements gets you that offer of an interview in the first place. They aren't interested in the amount of money you have. It is surprising how many people fail to understand the airlines specified requirements and think they should simply be altered to fit their own set of circumstances. I am afraid that has never been the case, and never likely to be.

Sure there is an interview for EZY, you could pass it with flying colours with fantastic quality of training and whatever other requirements they state, but the requirement is the money, end of, EasyJet specify the amount for the TR and they will expect it or you're out the door.
After spending £100k on a ATPL, how easy is it to pull £30-40k out of the bag, some of it totally upfront?
It is surprising how many people fail to understand that if you don't have money in this industry you face near impossible challenges to get jobs with certain employers. I am afraid that is now the case and is never likely to change....

Thegreenmachine

20th Apr 2017, 19:51

To be fair I think it's the principle which is being argued about here rather than the precise amount and exchange rate!

planesandthings

20th Apr 2017, 20:08

I agree we are where we are unfortunately, however even £30k is a cash cow, with a certain Irish low cost carrier I've seen 24k. What makes EZY so expensive? Or is it pure profiteering by school and airline?

I presume the type rating after FTE ends up with a contract with EasyJet, not some sort of "Flexi-Crew" arrangement like a certain Southampton based school has where you're not really a proper employee. It seems there's enough cadets flying EasyJet aeroplanes this way, another scandal after the scandal of £30k (Plus whatever additional sundry expenses are incurred)!

planesandthings

20th Apr 2017, 21:53

Great contribution. FTE would be my choice over the others if I were to think about integrated again as a safer bet for employment, for all the obvious pros of FTE plus yours above. When I've spoken to FTE I certainly find them more genuine and less of a marketing stunt than the other two with just as great opportunities, if not better.

I wish you all the best.

Bealzebub

20th Apr 2017, 23:42

Sure there is an interview for EZY, you could pass it with flying colours with fantastic quality of training and whatever other requirements they state, but the requirement is the money, end of, EasyJet specify the amount for the TR and they will expect it or you're out the door.
After spending £100k on a ATPL, how easy is it to pull £30-40k out of the bag, some of it totally upfront?
It is surprising how many people fail to understand that if you don't have money in this industry you face near impossible challenges to get jobs with certain employers. I am afraid that is now the case and is never likely to change....

The interview stage isn't about your "ability to pay" for a type rating. If that is a stipulation, it will be assumed that you have already taken that into account prior to making your application. The reason that so many airlines now require successful applicants to pay for their type ratings is down to history.

Thirty odd years ago, an airline offering conditional employment to a new recruit who required training on type, did so on the presumption that the recruit would honour that investment and stay with the company long enough to provide a reasonable return on that investment. Unfortunately, in times of plentiful opportunity, a few seized their new found ratings and left the provider in the lurch as they saw better opportunities for themselves.

Twenty odd years ago, airlines responded to this concern by "bonding" recruits needing type ratings for an amortisation period (often 2-3 years). If the recruit decided to break the contract, the employer could seek recovery from the pilot for the unsatisfied element of that contract. The problem with this was that a number of pilots simply took the viewpoint "Good luck with that!" And left the employer with the time and costs of seeking recovery.

Over the last 10 years, more and more airlines have moved on and taken the viewpoint that the risk should move from themselves to the applicant. The applicant isn't actually qualified to satisfy the vacancy (without a type rating) so they are going to provide it at the applicants cost. If the applicant then decides to move on to pasteurs new the airline isn't left holding the financial can for that training.

It has taken Thirty years or so, but that is the simple reason why this situation has evolved. I have witnessed it happening first hand. Long time followers of these forums will bear witness to the cries of indignation twenty years ago when "bonding" started to become more widespread. Nowadays if companies require you to assume the cost risk of your type training, then that is a part of the overall ab-initio training programme and people would be well advised to have understood that at a very early stage.

Perhaps this brief potted history lesson will help with that "understanding" ?

Shamrock49

21st Apr 2017, 02:47

And over the last couple of years these two giant LCCs have realised that they can actually make money from their new employees (whether that word can be used to describe them is another matter).
There are still decent operators out there. Flybe for example, a company with comparatively minuscule profit margins, still pays for the type rating (bonded) and treats its employees like human beings.

Pilot.v1

21st Apr 2017, 08:20

P2F is one of the factors leading to the degradation of flight safety. This is called Commercial Pressure on the pilot. Companies are looking primarily for pilots who are able to pay (some of you support these schemes). Other pilots who are "cornered", but also want to fly - they borrow money, take loans from banks. Yes, they start to fly, but they constantly think how to get this money back. But the main thing they should think about is compliance with the SOP and be responsible for safety. People supporting P2F involved in this degradation.

Sometimes a pilot should say NO. But the psychology is that - you are pressured by what you really want. These airlines want from you only money. Stop P2F. Refuse all offers where you asked to pay for TR and LT and after some time you will see changes.

Bealzebub

21st Apr 2017, 15:12

But where can an applicant run nowadays without at least 500 hours on type?
Almost nowhere. So the problem is that the management is just interested in another 15-25K EUR of profit and why not make it on junior employees?
Self-sponsored Type Rating & P2F shall be forbidden by law.

Yes, but 500 hours on type is generally less than 1 years experience. An airline making this level of investment would generally be looking at a commitment level well beyond this timescale. For a commercial company providing type ratings and employment conditional on those ratings it wouldn't be looking for a "churn" rate of 9-12 months. If it were to run a significant risk of that happening it certainly makes sense to make the supply of that training profitable.

Bear in mind that without the type rating you are not an employee, since the employment contract is likely to be conditional on the aquisition of that type rating and passing induction line training. It is fairly unusual for airlines to bond long standing employees for additional training. That is because they are already on a contract of employment and because they are already likely to have demonstrated a commitment.

The reason for the evolution is as I have already described, and that is down to many companies having had their fingers burnt in the past.

P2F is one of the factors leading to the degradation of flight safety. This is called Commercial Pressure on the pilot. Companies are looking primarily for pilots who are able to pay (some of you support these schemes). Other pilots who are "cornered", but also want to fly - they borrow money, take loans from banks. Yes, they start to fly, but they constantly think how to get this money back. But the main thing they should think about is compliance with the SOP and be responsible for safety. People supporting P2F involved in this degradation.

Sometimes a pilot should say NO. But the psychology is that - you are pressured by what you really want. These airlines want from you only money. Stop P2F. Refuse all offers where you asked to pay for TR and LT and after some time you will see changes.

"Pay to Fly" is something that you do from the moment you start your PPL training. It is going to burn great big holes in your pocket until the day you become qualified and obtain a job that enables you to start amortising those training costs. The distinction here is that of "qualification." Airlines have grown to take the view that you are not "qualified" unless you already have the qualification necessary for employment. Unfortunately, that has evolved to include the "type qualification" criteria, unless you are already in possession of it, and with substantive experience to back it up. Whereas once they would have assumed that risk, no longer are many prepared to do so.

I am afraid that evidentially it doesn't lead to the degradation of flight safety. What individuals borrow from banks for flight training or car loans or mortgages or anything else, is a matter for the individual whether they are a cadet pilot or a 40 year veteran.

Pilot.v1

21st Apr 2017, 16:04

About "Qualified" or not "Qualified". Some companies diesn't care if you already Type Rated and they can ask you to REDO it:

Originally Posted by Tomtomsky
I paid 15500 for my TR that is incl. CL and NG AND Hotel PLUS base training. That is something different then FR.

Then after 3,5 years CAE called me and asked what my situation was. I said well, I just obtained my 737 Rating... The friendly lady, asked me then, well are you still interested to work in FR? I said yes, but NOT when I have to REDO B737 Rating all over again for the grandstand price of 30K. I said, I HAVE TR737 rating so if they are in such a big need then they should take me on, but that was NOT possible when you dont have hrs on type. So then my answer was Thanks but NO Thanks.

Source: http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/222538-ryanair-interview-sim-assessment-merged-362.html

... And of coarse companies are "not trying" to make profit on pilots. ... And TR is responsibility of reach pilot. Poor poor companies.

ManUtd1999

21st Apr 2017, 17:36

Beazlebub, you seem to spend a lot of time posting long-winded justifications for airlines charging for training/type rating etc.... Do you perhaps work in the industry?

Ignoring the reasons for airlines doing what they are doing for a moment, do you agree with the practice of charging for type ratings?

While I agree that a desire "not to get their fingers burnt" played a part in airlines moving from funding training, to bonding it and then making the cadet pay it all, this does somewhat ignore the fact that many are now not only charging their but making handsome profit on top! This has nothing to do with risk and everything to do with increasing their margins.

Bealzebub

21st Apr 2017, 18:02

Beazlebub, you seem to spend a lot of time posting long-winded justifications for airlines charging for training/type rating etc.... Do you perhaps work in the industry?

The airline industry? Yes! The commercial flight training industry? No!

Ignoring the reasons for airlines doing what they are doing for a moment, do you agree with the practice of charging for type ratings?

No. But the point is, you cannot ignore the reasons behind the practice. By providing the history I would hope it helps with the understanding.

While I agree that a desire "not to get their fingers burnt" played a part in airlines moving from funding training, to bonding it and then making the cadet pay it all, this does somewhat ignore the fact that many are now not only charging their but making handsome profit on top! This has nothing to do with risk and everything to do with increasing their margins. They are commercial businesses, not charities or institutions of academia. Their entire raison d'être is to make a profit. When they used to pay for this type of training it would do absolutely nothing for their margins when a few individuals availed themselves of it and then sold it on to somebody else. When they "bonded", it did nothing for their margins when a few individuals broke their contracts resulting in legal costs or fiscal write offs. The new reality in the world of "lo-co" aviation is of survival in those margins. If your competitors are making more profit than you are, then you are operating at a disadvantage that is likely to prove an existential threat eventually.

About "Qualified" or not "Qualified". Some companies diesn't care if you already Type Rated and they can ask you to REDO it:
Yes, but again this has always been something of a fallacy. An airline recruiting a type rated pilot quite reasonably expects said pilot to have significant experience to go with that rating. In other words, they expect you to have been type rated by another airline in accordance with a structured training programme leading to experience with that airline. This type of experience should result in a low input risk for the airline. This is worlds away from somebody with low experience speculatively buying a type rating with no subsequent relevant experience, and then expecting an airline to accept this without any input from the new company. Far from from being advantageous, most companies would simply regard it as a big "red flag!"

fenny

22nd Apr 2017, 04:27

To add something to the 'how much is a type rating' argument I know two people who began working for easyjet in 2015/2016 employed by ctc flexicrew who both paid £30k for the type rating and a surprise £10k bond.

Bealzebub

22nd Apr 2017, 11:48

There is too much commercialism in the aviation today. Thanks to the EU & liberal idea that made privatization of state aviation enterprises all over the continent possible. It's all about money for smart business mans in private aviation companies. They want to make huge profit without risking a cent.

On the other side - we risk 100k EUR during our study, we have to maintain our licenses and why shall we risk 100-400 EUR on job interviews & additional 30-40k EUR on TR courses?! Meanwhile passengers are flying for 20 EUR with all those wonderful & innovative low-cost & ACMI carriers?

We have to change the game. The airlines wouldn't exist without pilots.
It is in our interest to require a fully paid TR through a bond & good salary.

That is why they are "commercial airlines." The clue is in the title! It is all about supply and demand. Whereas once the supply of experienced pilots to airlines was sourced from the military and other commercial operators. Those sources only provided a balanced supply at a relatively high cost. In other words relatively high wages and good ancillary terms and conditions. As you progressed further and further up the totem pole, so the rewards became greater in order to attract that "talent." In a capitalist world that isn't something unique to airlines, it is a widespread modus operandi across all businesses.

The growth of lo-cost airlines (and again the clue is in the title) sought to reduce all of their controllable input costs. That was achieved by increasing the supply such that the balance was achieved at a much lower price point. The "experience" requirements were shifted from the right seat to the left seat, and regulation changes facilitated and enabled those changes. The floodgates were opened to an entire "X factor" generation of people who no longer needed to follow traditional experience pathways to airlines, yet they (erroneously) clung on to the idea that success would be rewarded the way it always had been until that point.

The growing oversupply achieved the goal of bringing the balanced price point (wages and T&C's) way down. I would suggest it has a very long to go before the supply/demand curves reach any sort of equilibrium in the foreseeable future. By starting in the right place, it was inevitable that the lower input costs would in time spread across to the left seat, and sure enough they have.

There is an obvious paradox in these forums being awash with people who strive to reduce their own costs, yet seem perplexed that commercial airline companies would do the same. The reality of the world is that there is a great deal of experience "for sale" and the price (wages) of that experience is falling in real terms. When it comes to "inexperience" (and that is of relevance to these specific forums/threads/posts) the supply is simply huge, with no signs (at the current levels of experience requirement) of that getting any more balanced anytime soon.

I would recommend a viewpoint that assumes flight training, and houses, and cars, and boats, etc. will be "eye-wateringly" expensive in the future. Supply and demand is likely to ensure this remains the case, and competition will continue to ensure the survival of the fittest.

Anyway these are broader issues that deviate this thread off track, and perhaps it needs steering back to jobs for FTE grads as a specific issue.