Turning inbound in the holding pattern

[jsmitty01]

Couldn't fit a suitable title that would fit for my question at the time.

When I am turning inbound in a holding pattern and ready for the approach, is it still necessary to head for the inbound track of the holding pattern or can I just set myself up for the outbound track of the actual approach?

Could this same technique also be done off a sector entry?

If this method is possible, do you use it?

[Gravox]

Still set yourself up to track in on the inbound track. Once overhead the aid then fly out on the approaches outbound track.

If you were to set yourself up on the appraoches outbound track you would be essentially changing the direction of the hold. The hold is designed to give you terrain/airspace protection.

not the easiest to type about, but hope this is clear enough.

[GUARD]

You can operate at the 25 or 10 MSA and just intercept the outbound track inbound. Is there a reason why you are conducting holding. If its traffic related I would suggest you should stick to the inbound track so that everyone knows what you're doing.....including yourself!

As you know the regs simply state that you should only be within 30 degrees of the inbound ( which could actually be the outbound for 90% of approaches ) but why not strive for perfection and nail the inbound as it also gives you some indication of what the wind is doing before you commence the approach.

GUARD:ok:

[Richo]

Jsmitty

My two bobs worth.

1. If below the MSA in the hold or for traffic, you MUST follow the inbound for the hold.
Most cat A & B outbound tracks, for the NDB are different from the inbound of the hold. You would therefore not go over the aid of holding point if you flew this track. AIP states that, ........ descent may not be made untill established outbound or, AFTER MAKING A TURN TO INTERCEPT the outbound leg.(from over the aid or point.) this assumes of course that you are at the hold altitude or below the MSA.

If you are flying a straight in (GNSS/RNAV or VOR) for sure intercept the inbound radial, if the same as the inbound of the hold, as this tracking is more accurate.

1. As said earlier, if above the MSA, you may manouver as you like.

Personal I will avoid a holding pattern, unless its required for traffic or unavoidable sector entry.

Flying a constant descent profile, usually puts you over the aid outbound higher than the hold or MSA, so you can manouver to get yourself into the 30deg of the outbound and go straight out.

richo

[jsmitty01]

I appreciate the responses. Definitely not the easiest topic to type about, hopefully what I've written makes sense.

I mentioned intercepting the outbound of the approach from the inbound holding turn because usually during training/testing they like to see a hold performed and also as some of my sector entries are rough and I choose to do a lap to get settled, not for traffic.

My logic was that if I am about to turn inbound to the aid for the start of the approach off a sector entry or a hold, why not intercept the outbound track of the approach, fly over the aid on that track and then into the approach.

Instead of having to intercept the inbound sector entry/holding track and then changing to intercept the approach outbound track after station passage I could do it in one move.

[the dean]

maybe i am missing something but does it not depend on whether you have been told to enter the hold or not..

if so you need to...if not then ( if i understand correctly ) surely the is nothing to stop you tracking to the aid and from there ( though normally if available it will re radar headings to the ils ) establishing on the outbound QDR for the ultimate turn inbound to the landing...

the dean.

[Riding the Goat]

maybe i am missing something but does it not depend on whether you have been told to enter the hold or not..



The joys of CTA, unfortunately not all approaches are conducted at controlled airfields.

[Richo]

That's alright jsmitty, the question not asked, well you know.

If it is the NDB, you are refering to, then in a lot of cases the initial approach (outbound track) is not aligned with the inbound track of the holding pattern. for example the Leinster NDB 28 has the inbound hold track of 139deg, and a a cat B outbound of 121deg. (18 deg, which is really quite a lot)

if you flew the 121deg after a sector entry, you will not pass over the aid and therefore not be able to descend. (descent outbound from AIP)

if you intercept the 121 deg to the aid and go straight overhead outbound, then you are not flying a holding pattern (as precribed).
just the same as doing the 30deg either side straight in.

Personally if the holding pattern is there you SHOULD use it, there may be a reason why (terrain, airspace etc) not to mention that everyone knows where to look for you.

but once again, above the MSA in class G, you can track as you want.

Now if you are talking about a CIR flight test, then don't be silly - FLY THE HOLD CORRECTLY - as prescribed, and good luck.

richo

[ITCZ]

I mentioned intercepting the outbound of the approach from the inbound holding turn because usually during training/testing they like to see a hold performed and also as some of my sector entries are rough and I choose to do a lap to get settled, not for traffic.

My logic was.....

snip

.... I could do it in one move.

Sounds fair enough, smitty, but remember this -- the object of your CIR training is to teach you good basic IFR techniques. You will do an initial test to check that you are safe, and then you will be let loose to use and refine those techniques.

Be very careful that you do not develop your own 'technique' to cover an initial deficiency in your new IFR skills. The 'technique' or work-around might mean that you never address and fix the initial deficiency. We all had them, and those that worked on them became good pilots.

The more I fly, the more I realise the importance of good basic skills and knowledge, kept sharp by constant practice. There is no substitute.

I am cautious to not provide 'do this' advice over an internet forum, but I would encourage you to look at why it is that your sector entries are 'rough' and fix that with some armchair flying/MS flight sim/real practice, instead of seeking a less demanding alternate procedure.

[LeadSled]

JSMITTY01,
I very strongly recommend you obtain a copy of the ICAO material on holding patterns, perhaps from the Jepp World Wide Text, and study it very carefully.
There is some quite misleading advice on this thread, what has been "common practice" in Australia, and the actual ICAO SARPs, are significantly at variance, as is some of the "advice" here, including on applicability of safety heights, lowest safe altitude, tracking inbound to the holding fix, etc.
Do your own homework from the original documents. Then you will be set in the right direction.
Tootle pip!!

[wish2bflying]

I was going to start a new thread but realised this kind of follows on from the previous ... hey look moderators, I used the search facility :ok:

So this is the scenario ...

In the sim, not a check ride but student mutual without instructor present ... VOR approach, VOR/RMI, no DME or GPS, 10kt crosswind at holding altitude. No other "traffic", no ATC.

SA is lost on the turn inbound in the holding pattern due bank angle, with the result that the aircraft has slid out to the right of inbound track far enough that the CDI bar is hard left, and the pilot gives up trying to intercept. The RMI needle starts to indicate passing abeam of the station, but he has no indication other than gut feel of how far away the a/c is from the station. In fact, the CDI bar never disappeared, so the a/c was actually far enough to be outside the zone of confusion.

The pilot elects to set the CRS needle on the VOR outbound track, alters course for a 30° intercept and starts the clock. Not long afterwards, the outbound track is intercepted, pilot leaves MSA and continues the approach per the plate.

So ... is this a complete non-event? I was taught that if you are that far outside tolerances inbound in the hold, you are effectively not in the hold anymore and you need to plan to enter the missed approach, manoeuvreing to set up another sector entry to either pass overhead and go straight outbound, as described earlier in this thread, or enter another holding pattern if you want to.

In my reading of AIP:
An aircraft which is not required to hold or lose height in a holding pattern may commence the approach without entering the holding pattern if:
...
b. in any airspace, for procedures using navaids:
...
3) the en route track to the procedure's commencement fix or facility is within 30° either side of the first track of the procedure ...

Now, this is describing not holding, but the principle should apply, surely?

Besides good airmanship, is this legal? It was in the sim, so nothing to get excited about, but if it were in the real thing ... ?

Comments?

If I've confused myself and you with anything I've written above, please ask me before launching into a PPRuNe rant ... ;)

Also, if anyone has links to the ICAO material mentioned by LeadSled, could you provide them as I could only find this one ... http://www.icao.int/icaonet/dcs/9750/index.html, which is clearly not what he's talking about.

[muffman]

Given that you didn't ever cross the navaid, you haven't really commenced the approach from the IAF, or from within the +/- 30 degree sector for commencing the outbound leg. The only way I can see it's legal is if it's a VOR/DME approach with an IAF defined by VOR/DME on the inbound leg.

Also noting the earlier posts in the thread, there are no shortcuts in IFR flying. Sure, you can make it more efficient, but sticking to the rules and doing it efficiently is all part of the fun.

[wish2bflying]

Ah ... okay, no - the IAF had been crossed for a sector entry, outbound leg of the hold was fine, but turned inbound with too little bank angle and ended up out to the right.

I guess the point is ... would you have done another hold, or made the decision that you knew you were in the ballpark and just headed outbound? I know what the answer would be if it were a test with ATO on board ... but would you do it differently out there when burning the bosses' gas/kero?