Civil Flying School at YMMB

[TheNightOwl]

Good morning, all,

Does anyone have any idea what has happened to CFS at Moorabbin?

My reason for asking is that an elderly neighbour was given a birthday present of an hour's flight with them in a Cessna 150 but, when he went to Third Street at YMMB last Friday to set up a date, he found the premises deserted.

He came to me since he knows of my aviation background, and the fact that I live close to YMMB, so I thought I'd ask here. I looked up their web-site, it still appears with no info whatever!

Over to you,

Best regards,

TheNightOwl:confused:

[Di_Vosh]

TNO,

I had an email from a mate who told me the other day that they'd shut up shop for good. A sad day for Civil, but inevitable really, as they'd been
mismanaged for years. Sadly, the last ditch buy out attempt was also a failure.

They also owed me money, but I'm guessing I wont be seening any of that.

AFAIK, the gift certificates were via a vendor company (such as Adrenaline or Wishlist). I'd suggest your neighbour contact them to see if it is transferable to something else, or refundable so that he can go to another flying school for his flight.

Hope this helps,

DIVOSH!

[Lasiorhinus]

And the phone number doesnt work. Brings up an error saying "Number Not Connected"...

Fax line still rings, though I didnt actually send anything.

Wasn't Civil the ones doing some large training courses for a large airline in the area?

[Jnr380]

I heard about Civil on the w/e.

They went down hill, owing rent on the hangar and building, and they're phone is disconnected by the landlord. Also they CFI and grade 1 instructors still turned up for work when they were locked out.

It wasnt long a go (I think 2001) they merged with Troy aviation. Geez how many flying schools at left at MB? i know GAS are only doing contract training and not taking on private students.


Jnr380

[TheNightOwl]

Di Vosh - many thanks for the info, yours appears to be the best bet for my neighbour, so far.

I know life for the training establishments has been hard for some time now, but it's still sad to see another go to the wall, perhaps moreso for those still owed money than the owners who must have realised what was in the wind.

Cheers,

TheNightOwl.

[aircabbie]

Gee this is becoming more more common hearing of outfits shutting up shop.
Is this a reflection of times and increased expense or a lack of students coming through the doors due to cost of flying these days . Both iassume , it seems unless you got students coming from off-shore its pretty bloody hard.

:ok:

[Blue Sky Baron]

TNO,
How the hell are you, long time no hear.
What are you up to these days?

BSB

[TheNightOwl]

BSB: Check your PMs.

Best regards,

TNO.

[Di_Vosh]

Mate,

Not so much a reflection of the times; more a case of very apathetic management over a number of years.

Although the points you made didn't help, MB and GA could have been having a boom time and the end result would probably have been the same.

DIVOSH!

[aircabbie]

cheers mate , sounds like rough roads ahead for the smaller GA guys from what i can gather ..

[N2000]

Nightowl

Its a shame to hear that Civil's have gone, I did my PPL with them back in the 80's........times change sadly.

Give the RVAC a call, they were very decent when I was last at MB, which sadly was last year.

N2000

pm me for any further info

[LaTus]

Anyone know of the whereabouts of E.Wittenburg? He was an instructor at Civils when I was there 5-6 years ago, and a very good one at that.

[Di_Vosh]

Eddie hasn't flown for a few years now. He left Civil to work in the family business in 2004 (or thereabouts). I last caught up with him around 18 months ago.

Hope this helps. :ok:

DIVOSH!

[TheNightOwl]

Thanks to all who posted, I feel that I've struck out as far as helping the old chap goes.

The relative who bought the certificate tells me that it came directly from Civil themselves, so there doesn't appear to be much hope for her money, nor her uncle's flight.

As an aside, would the afore-mentioned Mike Sutcliffe be the one married to Ruth King! Not screamingly important, just being nosey!!

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.

[Di_Vosh]

Short answer: YES

Sorry to hear about your neighbour, and it's a shame about Civil. I keep in touch with most of the instructors, and will be in contact with them when I get back to Oz.

DIVOSH!

[giant_bird]

I hear Melbourne Flight Training at Moorabbin honoured the voucher, nice work guys!

[TheNightOwl]

giant-bird, you beat me to it!

Some days ago, Melbourne Flight Training, in the form of Glen Buckley, sent me a PM advising that they would be happy to honour the voucher, with no strings attached.
I organised for my neighbour to meet Glen, and the upshot was that, yesterday a.m., MFT took him for an hour in a Cessna 172 round the city/bay much to his delight.
He had a ball, I think perhaps some "hands-on" time helped in that regard, and he hasn't stopped telling all and sundry about the experience.
I also have a feeling that the offer of "a beer on a Friday evening" just may be taken up soon!

I want to express here my admiration for MFT and, in particular, Glen Buckley, for the offer and for the pleasure it gave Geoff not only for the flying part, but also for the restoration of his belief in the goodness of most people.
He isn't a youngster, and has a long-time love of flying, and the upset with Civil dented his belief somewhat. For MFT to undertake to fix a problem not of their making, and at their expense, I believe is well worthy of public acclaim and, with Geoff's agreement, I hereby do so.

Well done, Melbourne Flight Training, rest assured that Geoff and I will sing your company's, and personal, praises for a long time to come!!

Kindest regards,

TheNightOwl. :ok:

[PlankBlender]

Just to chip in my 2c's worth on the RVAC endorsement above, I would strongly urge any prospective student to evaluate that school carefully before they make their decision to part with their hard-earned!

I went there for some instruction on an ill-informed recommendation, and wasted hours on substandard instructors: No pre or post flight briefings to speak of, thereby provoking very avoidable c:mad:ckups and thus the need for more flights.. go figure! Communication in general lacking to say the least, no attempt to understand the background or needs of the student, plus some of the worst instructional performance I have ever encountered in aviation (basically one guy who justed wanted to get his hours up and couldn't care less about the student, and another one who couldn't teach if his life depended on it and just grabbed the controls whenever he felt like it). :ouch:

Now I am sure there are decent instructors around at RVAC and a lot of people will choose that established club for a lot of good reasons, so just be warned that you probably need to be more clued up than myself and make it very well understood what you need and want (not that I wouldn't expect from a good instructional institution of any ilk to figure that out FOR the student :sad:).

[Lasiorhinus]

No pre or post flight briefings to speak of,
Communication in general lacking to say the least
no attempt to understand the background or needs of the student,
plus some of the worst instructional performance


Did you happily wander out to the aircraft with the instructor without a preflight briefing? Or did you ask the instructor "Hey, why havent we briefed yet?"

Did you attempt to communicate with the instructor and find out what his/her aims were, and to express your aims?

Did you attempt to convey your background and needs to the instructor?

Did you arrange a meeting with the CFI at the conclusion to discuss the experience you had, and to address shortcomings in their instructional system?

[PlankBlender]

Yes I did give them my briefing about where I was coming from and what I needed, but that information was ignored resp. not passed on from the CFI to the instructors.

I did try to communicate, but as originally posted both asigned instructors had issues or alterior motives. I took a passenger up without telling him what the issue was (I thought it was me being dumb..), he confirmed my observations..

Not trying to justify my behaviour here (I should have left without giving them the benefit of the doubt for a few flights), just trying to alert the avid reader that they should be careful when evaluating who to spend their hard earned with..

[flyer12]

Hi, I used to be a student at Civil a couple of years ago and have re-commenced my training elsewhere. One thing I'd like to get hold of is my training records from Civil. Anyone got any ideas how to go about it now that Civil no longer exists?!

Cheers.

[hewisond]

Hey, I seem to be in the same boat. A little late, but I just found out that Civil closed :(

Ive been away from flying fro some time, but am about to start again.

Did you have any luck getting your records?

My dad used to know Mike Sutcliff through a car club we belonged to, it was strange that when i started flying, he was the owner of Civil... Im sad for both he and Ruth and all the staff.

[Di_Vosh]

Im sad for both he and Ruth and all the staff

Don't shed too many tears for MS! By the time Civil was sold (late 2004/early 2005, AFAIK) it was a basket case, and could only be put out of its misery.

Which is what the buyer did around a year later. :{

DIVOSH!

[Nagaman]

I learnt to fly at Civil in the days of Jock Garden and (sadly) the late Peter Bini etc when it was owned by (also late) Bib Stilwell .
£7/hr in a 'mouse' .....memories
Sad to hear it's no more.......along with my first employer Flinders Island Airlines (FIA)

[Tee Emm]

Not trying to justify my behaviour here (I should have left without giving them the benefit of the doubt for a few flights), just trying to alert the avid reader that they should be careful when evaluating who to spend their hard earned with..


Full marks to you for opening up about your experience. A telling blow against political correctness for a change.

Reminded me of the time I paid $80 to attend a local Council of Adult Education basic computer course. There were four men and three women on the course. One woman was a stunner with a low cut dress. The instructor (dirty old man he was and it takes one to know one, I might add!) would paid her much close attention when she put her hand up for help. He ignored all the other hands up for help.

He would walk behind the desk of the good looking 40 year old babe then lean over her back to see what she had on her computer screen and have a quick perv down the valley. I learned SFA from the course and walked out half way. Told the administrators they could keep my money but that they needed to have a quiet chat with their contracted computer instructor.

Some flying instructors are keen and enthusiastic. Others unfortunately are not. They haven't the hours to qualify up the food chain and they get bored sitting around their flying school waiting for some unsuspecting bright eyed and bushy tailed hopeful to come through the door.

Unfortunately, new students don't know this until their first dual flight. The CFI/ management are probably are unaware of all this happening outside their office. The CFI might not even have met the prospective student. Here is a story to illustrate this.


In another era, a bunch (60 in fact) of us joined the RAAF to start on a Pilots Course. The senior course before us warned of of three particular flying instructors who were screamers in the cockpit. These three were embittered Warrant Officers passed over for promotion.
Later, some of our course were scrubbed after suffering the attentions of these bastards.

The Commanding Officer was a former wartime POW shot down by the Japs early in WW2 and an absolute gentleman. Yet none of us would remotely consider complaining or request a change of instructor. That would be unheard of in those days.

Fast forward to 2005. The old CO was in a retirement home on his last legs when myself and another former RAAF colleague visited to pay our respects to this brave man. During the course of our conversation, the old Wingco explained how he was shot down and most of his crew killed in his Catalina flying boat, by a bunch of Jap Zero carrier borne fighters north of Rabaul, soon after Pearl Harbour.

Later, the conversation turned to the time he was Commanding Officer at RAAF Point Cook which is where we first met him as sprog trainee pilots.

We pointed out that among his flying instructors in those days were three that were screaming skulls. The old man was absolutely horrified this would happen under his command and without his knowledge. That was understandable since it was considered bad form in those days to dob in your flying instructor.

That is why flying school CFI's are largely unaware of poor standard flying instructors because no one is game to dob in these characters. Students at flying schools are not exactly encouraged to change instructors if things don't work out. In fact it is probable the subject is rarely mentioned. You get the common situation where CFI's do the instrument flying training and rarely fly with an ab-initio student - leaving that to the grade 2 and 3's. Then CFI's wonder why some students quietly close the door behind them and try their luck elsewhere..

[Capt Fathom]

Got to be a record for thread resurrection :suspect:

[Sunfish]

TM words of wisdom

[cogwheel]

I learnt to fly at Civil in the days of Jock Garden and (sadly) the late Peter Bini etc when it was owned by also late) Bib Stilwell .

Yes those were the days, up in the pine trees. Jock was one of the best, he could even land the mouse looking out the back window! Great formation instructor.
As for B1N1... What a great chap and a very practical instructor. Did a few IR renewals with him when he worked at EN - one of the best.
Ah good memories!

[Old Akro]

My dad used to know Mike Sutcliff through a car club we belonged to, it was strange that when i started flying, he was the owner of Civil... Im sad for both he and Ruth and all the staff.

Mike & Nigel Brookes sold out of Civil years and years ago. Maybe 10 years or more. Whatever has happened to Civil has nothing to do with him. He's living happily in Townsville with Ruth and their kids.

Mike owned Civil at the time of the Mobil fuel debacle. It took a very heavy toll on the business.