Apache Squadrons on the move to Wattashambles

[AHQHI656SQN]

Oh well:{
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6435659.stm

[BEagle]

What is it with you wretched dung-eaters? The RAF handed over a fine fighter base in Constable Country to you dim-witted lot and your horrible, clattering devices....and all you do is moan about it?

Wattisham was a superb RAF base in the Lightning/Phantom era - can you really have made such a bolleaux of the place with nothing more than a few helicopters rattling about the countryside?

[Bertie Thruster]

.....but don't forget that in a small hangar, on the very site of the old Lightning/Phantom QRA sheds, Wattisham is home to a unit of the RAF's finest 'horrible clattering devices' :)

[timex]

What is it with you wretched dung-eaters? The RAF handed over a fine fighter base in Constable Country to you dim-witted lot and your horrible, clattering devices....and all you do is moan about it?
Wattisham was a superb RAF base in the Lightning/Phantom era - can you really have made such a bolleaux of the place with nothing more than a few helicopters rattling about the countryside?

Get over yourself...........have you actually thought about what it means to the guys who are moving?

Promised stabilty at Dishforth, even though deployed heavilly on Ops.
Most guys have wives and families living in their own homes who will now have to move. (Probably whilst hubby is on a deployment!). Or stay and hubby commutes at w-ends...great way to spend the few free w-ends.

Kids in schools around the local area, major upheaval.

Also lets not forget quite a few AH drivers are now completing the return of service for the conversion course..............mmm and just how will this help retention?

I really hope your comments were in jest..................

[BEagle]

So how is that worse than the upheaval faced by those who were posted to/from Wattisham to/from Leuchars, Wildenrath or Coningsby back when Wattisham was in RAF hands?

I've only ever heard moans about such a wonderful location from the Army - why?

[High_lander]

From the article, it makes sense. Its like having all the Merlins at Culdrose. At the MERLIN DEPTH MAINTENANCE FACILITY.

So it'd be easier to get technical advice.

*cynic* or so you'd think, but its not*/cynic*

I can understand the whole "BUGGER, a move" mentality.

[insty66]

It's like the Army keep telling us, " You're a part of the military and it comes with the job!":ok:

I didn't see you moaning when approx 80 technicians at Lossie were told "you're posted to Marham."

Perhaps their families and houses count for less because they're in Scotland.:rolleyes:

[Mr C Hinecap]

Beagle - you are talking about a long time ago when people 'followed the flag' far more and did not have stability as a promise. They did not own their own houses as much, they were not on ops and were not at the thin edge of the wedge.

You have rose-tinted on - I remember your 'this is terrible, I'm leaving and don't regret it' rants of old. You were a Cold War Warrior and I respect you for that, but people are different, families are different, society is different and the military is different. Some is better, much is not. We do far more than the military ever did with far less. I have sympathy. Can you imagine the volume of whining if BZZ were moved a few hundred miles? I can't.

[Door Slider]

But the RAF will be in a worse position than the AAC when Brize moves to Lyneham and then, if the SH super base happens and Odiham and Benson move to Lyneham. Thats alot of people moving!!! Not so good for AAC or RAF stabilty i'm sure you agree. I'm also sure you will agree that the chaps and girls at all concerned bases are heavily deployed. I'm sure its a decision not taken lightly by those further up the pay scales. However, for those who are staying in the forces the resulting stability would be better. Well until someone else has a good idea of course!!

[timex]

I didn't see you moaning when approx 80 technicians at Lossie were told "you're posted to Marham."

Perhaps their families and houses count for less because they're in Scotland.

Why would you think that? I don't agree with anyone being faffed about. The same comments about the AH guys apply to anyone.


Dishforth was set up to be an AH base, expectations were that it would remain so.

Times have changed and all that will happen is people will walk...

[BEagle]

Mr Ingram said: "The interest of our military personnel and their families are very important to us and as such, the moves will be managed to ensure minimal impact on them."

Hmmm.... If that's true, then the relocation packages will have to be spectacularly generous in order to retain people.

But the rewards of moving to such an excellent part of the world need to be factored in.

[timex]

But the rewards of moving to such an excellent part of the world need to be factored in.

Sorry, I thought that they were moving to Wattisham.........

[insty66]

Why would you think that? I don't agree with anyone being faffed about. The same comments about the AH guys apply to anyone.


I mentioned it because there were no threads started here on the subject and if one had been started the common style of reply would have been "Comes with the job" or suchlike.

I'm inclined to agree about the faffing and stuff but................

I bet an awful lot more stay than go and that's the only measurement that will be noted.

[timex]

I mentioned it because there were no threads started here on the subject and if one had been started the common style of reply would have been "Comes with the job" or suchlike.

Sadly you may be right..............

[996]

Whine whine whine...........you really do not see the big picture here do you? Had you done so then you would perhaps realise that crew stability is just not an issue at all. In fact it never has been it is just a notion that is bandied about to placate the workforce. It's all about cutting cost and everything else will take a lower peg of importance. After all, you have a choice - walk or shut up and accept it.

[Hummingfrog]

The only weapon you have against the people who want to mess up your life is to leave.

I left when, after promising another flying tour, I was posted to MOD in London from Lossiemouth so I elected to walk - best decision I ever made. Now senior Captain with CHC Scotia and enjoying stability and control over my life (still living in the same house we built in 1990).

CHC is crying out for experienced pilots so now is a very good time to transfer your skills to someone who only wants you for your flying ability - no secondary duties - come in - fly - go home.

HF

[AHQHI656SQN]

Actually, the reason none of the Apache fraternity want to move to Wattisham is because the local area is full of flying complaints, and Dishforth isn’t.
Beagle, in the days of the Lightning and the Phantom, you made a lot of noise for a very short period, and then you were gone. The helicopter is very different. The noise loiters a whole lot longer. In Suffolk you can’t fly for any longer than a minute in any direction without having to turn to avoid over-flying some pointy-heads farm.:ugh:
The Apache has done so well on operations, as a result of fantastic training, flown in the majority of cases in the north of England, flying from good old Dishforth.:ok:
Without saying too much, an average sortie would include low level to Spade, a few runs against a system or two, then low-level departure, climb for a IF recovery to Leeming, and all on one tank of gas. Outstanding value, day and night. Now, lets see how far can you go on a tank of gas from Wattisham. Marham, PAR overshoot to Coltishall, oh no that’s right, Coltishall has closed. Marham, PAR overshoot for further then back to Wattisham for PAR to overshoot for further and land. Outstanding. NOT!:=
I'm in the Army and I'll move where ever they tell me, and indeed I'll be off to Wattashambles with the Mrs, but not out of choice. The move of the Apache to Wattisham has been forced upon us, not for the right reasons; I disagree with it and can't see myself living with it for too long.:*

[LXGB]

AHQHI656SQN
"Now, lets see how far can you go on a tank of gas from Wattisham."

After you get bored of the QE2 Bridge tour, the Norfolk Broads and the Cambridge Fens, you could always buzz the pikie camp at Woodbridge.

Holbeach is always nice. Stow that TADS after though, lots of birds about on the coast! ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v415/rebel14/IMG_0219.jpg

[BEagle]

Well OK, chaps, I can see your point about being reluctant to relocate - the turbulence of posting is a definite push force these days, it seems.

But I find it hard to believe that the 'pointy heads' of Suffolk consider the Apache more of an annoyance than 2 squadrons of F4s were. We also flew some low level trips around East Anglia - as did our Buccaneer and later, Tornado, colleagues at Honington and Marham. And the Colt Jags, Twinbase A-10s and Wyton Canberras.....

If the objection is on legitimate tactical training grounds, then you most certainly have a genuine complaint and need to make the point with the MoD-box dwellers. But if it's just that the Army doesn't like Suffolk (which I still don't understand...), then that's hardly a good reason to feel quite so aggrieved - apart from the general turbulence of relocation, that is.

[996]

AHQHI656SQN Said; "Actually, the reason none of the Apache fraternity want to move to Wattisham is because the local area is full of flying complaints, and Dishforth isn’t."

Do you mean to tell me that that is THE reason? Absolute rubbish and you know it. The reason there are very few complaints - if any - in the Dishforth area is quite simply because the cabs are hardly ever airborne in the area. To all intents and purposes the place is the quietest it has ever been. The blokes are always away places abroad and when they are not they are away on exercise miles from their base. I live within earshot of Dishforth and under a regularly used transit path and in the last 2 years I have only ever heard 2 rumble by. [They actually sound like a diesel train and are far quieter than the Lynx or Gazelle] That is why the complaint log is very low.

Since when have crews put the complaint log as the highest priority when determining their future desires? Never! Besides, whatashame and the surrounding area is from a flight point of view the most boring and useless part of the country to be in.

HAND

[BRASSEMUP]

Hummingfrog.................... I've pulled the yellow and black and i'm on my way...............See you in Aberdeen!

[HaveQuick2]

I think you'll find that the AH is significantly quieter than LX, which can be heard rattling along from a fair old distance.

So, moving the LX out of Suffolk should actually reduce the number of valid noise complaints.

Anyway, the majority of complaints are from the recent arrivals in the area, not the long time locals who were used to the fast jets of old, and understood the reasons.

I think this is another area where MoD PR have some way to go in explaining the roles and reasons that LL training is carried out in the local LFA.

[BEagle]

Sometimes the locals have a valid point though.

I was Duty Ops person at RAF Wattisham (after HM decided that I wasn't going to remain a F4 driver...) one summer night when we received a phone call from a fairly pi$$ed off local. It seems that Tony-the-p**f had decided to lead a 3-ship back from the coast at low level (all of about 5-6 minutes' worth of pretty pointless flying).....at nearly 2100. The 250 ft battle turn over the bloke's house had been the cause of his complaint - quite reasonably so too!

Another woman phoned up asking whether we had radar records of the Jaguar that had just flown over her village at low level somewhere to the north-west of us. I explained that our radar was actually aimed upwards for approach control - she retorted that "It's just as well we aren't being attacking then, if your radar can't see low flying aircraft!"

That I couldn't resist. "We don't actually view Norfolk as featuring high on our list of potential enemies, madam, but I will make sure that your comment is passed on - in case the Russians should decide to tunnel their way in!".

CLICK!

Good job I was leaving the next day!

[Front Seater]

Beags,
As someone on PPRUNE that I respect I am very surprised that this thread has hit your raw nerve and I must agree totally with what 656 AH QHI posted (and it is very rare for me to agree with any QHI!).
Before I begin, bottom line is that if you dont like your life then walk - all of the 'Career Managers' and those responsible for personnel in the AAC have managed to score such an own goal in retention it ranks up there with the classic footage of the goal keeper hoofing it into the back of his net from his own goal kick.
So agreed, put up or shut up - and stop whinging. By now anyone that does not know about the AH lifestyle - the highs and its lows - is only deluding themselves. If you want to try and transfer, then try, if you want to try the rigs, PAS, civvie options - the options are all there and the doldrums of 9/11 have long gone.
But Beagle, the point that everyone is trying to make (and surprisingly your nostalgia and sentiment of your F4 days is clouding your posts I believe) is that as QHI 656 rightly states a Phantom off the runway at Wattashame can be passing FL50 in seconds, and rarely was the local area (in the convaluted 'clutch' of airspace in East Anglia would there be significant Low Level activity in the immediate vicinity). The majority of the OTAs were to the north, with 7T, the North Sea and the highlands still preferred for the 'fights'.
AH and all rotary do not have that luxury and are confined to approximately 2 hours a 'wobblehead' speed of 120-140 knots. So, yet again in the Wattashame back yard - constantly. Added to this you in your F4 was averaging 420 knots , 7 miles a minute - so the noise although more dramatic was temporary - woosh and go, compared to a 2 miles a minute in a helicopter. Again add this to the height of operation - 250 feet for you guys (East Anglia is not a OLF area to my knowledge) where as for us to do the job that H M Queen wants we have to go below 50' and as we do not have the advantage of 'speed is life', we use cover from view/radar horizon.
So we are lower and slower.
Combine this with a populated area of East Anglia (in comparison to the Yorkshire Moors) and especially in the summer, 2 Regiments of AH all trying to remain night current and competent and you can see the Low Flying complaints rising considerably.
As the AH is new aircraft, under EU regulations an environment impact has to be done, which limits where training can be done. Lets add to this environmental 'red areas' the inevitable flying complaints that will start to populate as low area avoids and appear in the AIP. Will this Govt say to those that complain - sorry, essential training for the defence of the country - I think not. More red 'avoids' going on the map.
So in comparison to the Dishforth location, we will end up training in a postage stamp area, under strict regulations that will be 'ticking currency boxes only' as the area becomes very familiar to crews.
All of the above is without having the superb training facilities of Spade and the hills of the Lake District/Lowlands within a 2 hour sortie. All good stuff for our current theatre of operation.
All of the above is without the families and personal factor. How many moves in how many years before childrens education suffers (not all subscribe to the boarding school philosophy of bringing up children - absolutely nothing against those that do - but it is not for all).
But Beags - this is the real point that grips me as a tax payer.
How much money has been wasted?
What on earth do all of these 'think tanks' and Staff Officers do when in only a period of 5 to 10 years the hackneyed phrase of goal posts move again. How many airfields have significant investment only to be then handed over to an Army logistic unit to park vehicles!
I get the distinct impression that we are chasing our tails and knee jerking at every opportunity - if change is that rapid and this amount of flexibility is required, the military is not the organisation to keep up during peacetime.
I really do wonder that if in 10 years time, when all of the flying complaints, environmental impact has been fully recognised, the poor quality training (resulting in a decrease in Operational Effectiveness) results in yet another (expensive) move of the AH fleet.
The only training area left in UK with a rotary friendly night flying (opening hours) system is SPTA and LFA 1. The majority of exercises with Land Forces take place on SPTA. If looking from a Joint perspective (and we have seen how closely SH need to work with AH to ensure survival) then all of the SH are around SPTA (Odiham, Benson, Yeovilton). Or we could waste a 2 hour 30 minute transit (there and back-FARP or refuel at Lyneham anyway!) to SPTA every time we fly.
So if we are going to make a change - why do a half hearted attempt that is only going to satisfy one factor - The Treasury/Bean Counters
Why isn't a bold correction made and accept the fact that the previous work strands were wrong and put All rotary assets into closely located 'Joint super helicopter bases'. Lyneham (CH47/AH) Yeovilton (SK4/BRH) Benson (Merlin/Puma).
Relatively underused LFA 2 on the door step, Welsh Mountains within 2 hour reach.
I am with QHI 656 on the fact of being in green and going wherever the Queen sends me, but let there be no doubt in anyones mind that this will significantly impede in the development and training of the AH capability for operations and I would happily take an Evens bet that there will be another move of the AH fleet within 10 years as the environmental aspect of AH operations in East Anglia make its location there untenable.
And as we all know, in 10 years those in the desks that make the kind of decisions being made now will be long gone, and certainly not having to reconcile their decisions that they made in 2006/07 in the interests of satisfying a the treasury. By saying 'no' and accepting the cost how on earth can careers be furthered or honours gained?

[BEagle]

"Why isn't a bold correction made and accept the fact that the previous work strands were wrong and put All rotary assets into closely located 'Joint super helicopter bases'. Lyneham (CH47/AH) Yeovilton (SK4/BRH) Benson (Merlin/Puma).
Relatively underused LFA 2 on the door step, Welsh Mountains within 2 hour reach.2"

Indeed - and if the AH training potential of Wattisham is as poor as you all say, then you need to make the point very forcibly with those in the Box.

But imagine the turf wars between the wheels for control of such bases; from what one gathers, "We're all purple" is only acceptable to JHC if that particular shade of purple is somewhat khaki.

[Front Seater]

Beags,

(a) Dont you think we have all aired our concerns and they have all been put to one side.

(b) Jointery works on the coal face, JHF(Afghanistan) is living proof - at SO1 level and below, no willy waving - with real bullets, real casualties quickly forging a team (you would be hard pressed around the table at Bastion on a shout to work out who was Army and who was RAF). If there are any issues with true Jointery it is politicking of those that feathering their own nests and own careers.

So although I do not think that the future is bright, I do think that it is truly purple.

[AHQHI656SQN]

Front Seater.

You must have more time on your hands than me, as you put far more effort into your thread than I could afford.
I agree entirely with everything that you said. A first I think!;)
I wonder how long it will be before the level of flying complaints becomes a real issue.

996- You are correct, flying complaints are low at Dishforth because the units simply have not been in country to fly. However during the build up to Apache TFAD we hammered the night flying, and we did not get any then. The moors are wide open and it really isn't difficult to avoid dwellings, unlike Suffolk (I have spent 6 years at Wattisham) where one avoiding turn puts you into the path of another. Nightmare.

The biggest impact will be on AH capability, Comd JHC has acknowledged this, giving Dishforth 80% suitability and Wattisham only 60%!

I'm off Skiing now, see you at a flat place in the summer.

[BackfromIraq]

Personally, I can't believe they would want to live in the flatlands when there's so much interesting countryside to thrash around up here. It probably takes as long to travel to the Big Smoke from there than by train from up here.

From an operational point of view, aren't they supposed to work with Lynx and Gazelle in a symbiotic recce/attack relationship? Seems doctrine is being changed to save money...cynical? moi?

[Gainesy]

Why not Middle Wallop?:confused:

[BEagle]

Or Upavon?


.

[Green Flash]

Or Aldershot or Wilton or anywhere Army that doesn't have a runway, surely? I mean, a few big sheds, a mix of concrete and grass and away you go! Helos don't need 8000' of asphalt, do they? Or am I having a senior moment?:confused:

[swampenpompentrompen]

Hummingfrog

Pse check your PMs.

SPT

[airborne_artist]

Still, look on the bright side - the grown-ups will be able to get a bit of shopping in at the Lakenheath BX if they make friends with Lt Col David A Konop, a spokesman for AAFEE said:"I am told three or four distinguished visitors from the British Army come monthly and are allowed to shop there, so it would not have been considered special treatment," he said.

[SilsoeSid]

HaveQuick2
I think you'll find that the AH is significantly quieter than LX, which can be heard rattling along from a fair old distance.
Not when I was living just off the A1 south of XD.
You could hear them both from a long way off, and the Apache was significantly louder.
The Apache was also slower, so you heard it for longer, but you knew though that the noise of the Lynx was the air being beaten into submission!

[Front Seater]

Why not Middle Wallop or Upavon or Netheravon.

Good suggestions with investment.

However I reckon that Wallop is pretty busy already and I do not believe that there is physical space. Also, if we are trying to really embrace Jointery then we should look at places that can accomodate the Twin Engined TQ Monster/Freak Machine.

As to the old RFC bases - what Lyneham offers over these airfields is an established infrastructure, ranging from runway, hangarage, fire and ATC facilities and also some domestic and recreation facilities that the AAC always forget when they do there designs and budgets.

But to be truthful - any suggestion is better than the current plan from an Operational Effectiveness perspective.

[gsa]

996- You are correct, flying complaints are low at Dishforth because the units simply have not been in country to fly. However during the build up to Apache TFAD we hammered the night flying, and we did not get any then. The moors are wide open and it really isn't difficult to avoid dwellings, unlike Suffolk (I have spent 6 years at Wattisham) where one avoiding turn puts you into the path of another. Nightmare.

As an ex Gazelle driver from the early 80s living in a remote part of the Dales it will be a shame that AH will be moving out from Dishforth! I for one certainly didn't mind being woken up at 1 in the morning by an Apache in the treeline outside low level.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Lyneham aint closing :ok:

[Front Seater]

Seldom,

You either know that the Herc move to Brize has been cancelled or you have information on the estate rationalisiation.

Agreed, 8000 metres of runway is certainly over kill for AH - but not for the Hercs, C17s that just maybe for once land at the customer to load the aircraft for world wide deployment rather than the very time consuming and inefficient process of flying to brize for dismantling etc.

[HaveQuick2]

Ahh, then perhaps Wattishams acreage of asphalt is not a bad idea then after all.

C-130s have regularly delivered and collected helicopters there, and it has also seen a RAF C-17. Plenty of room to come in and collect a readily broken down AH ready for shipment, without having to to so at Brize.

Not sure if the An-124s could fit there though......

[Front Seater]

HaveQuick1

You are obvioulsy on different MWODS - in no way, shape or form does Wattashames runway outweigh the other factors dicussed above - I would prefer to be air test fantastic at Brize rather than a C17 bonus.

But add the factors together then the runway is an added bonus.

But lets be honest, just like South Cerney - the movers will always expect the Mountain to come to Mohammad rather than fly an aircraft to an APOD - so I think I was dreaming again....

[HaveQuick2]

FS

I was in no way implying that the ability to air transport straight out of MOB would outweigh the possibly many negatives that WTM has, just pointing out one possible plus point in its favour.


On another associated point, what about hangars 1 and 6 that were introduced after the crabs departed? Weren't they (poorly) designed and built specifically for AH ops, and have so far proved to be unusable for such?

Has something changed, has AH become suddenly less tall, or are the new arrivals going to have to share H2-5 with the rest of the AH units?

[Two's in]

Did I miss the Elephant in the room with the previous posts? Isn't this all part of the push to rationalise the 16 AAB assets? They're in Colchester so (they say) those assets need to be close by in Wattisham. Surely this all about Operational control of Div/Bde resources - Why on earth would anyone in the Purple/Maroon puzzle palace even consider the effect this has on AAC training effectiveness and morale/welfare?

[LXGB]

Sorry for thread-drift.

On the subject of resources available at Wattisham. Why don't the Army use the 2 HAS sites for storing aircraft if space is tight in the Hangars on the Waterfront?

As stated by others, having a long-ish runway is certainly a great asset for deploying direct from your MOB on a C17. The resident Brigade Para Sqn also makes use of it regularly with C130s. There's frequent visits by Islanders and JFACTSU Hawks sometimes stage out of Wattisham when working with station based aircraft.

With the stations fully operational Air Traffic Control Radar Unit the capability is there to handle a lot more traffic, both FW and RW, VFR and IFR.

I'm sure the locals will get used to AH Ops after a few more "Land Owner's Lunches" in the Mess.


LXGB

[BEagle]

"HaveQuick1

You are obvioulsy on different MWODS"

Point of order! HQ2 uses MWODs, HQ1 is only capable of using a single WOD.

Where's my e-anorak!

[J.A.F.O.]

LXGB

The army are unaware that anything apart from trucks and spares can be housed in the HASs.

[peoplespoet]

I have to say that the centralisation of all AH assets into one location is the best one ever! Cost effective, productive, good for moral and retention, not to mention the benefits for family stability and harmony...

I heard a 'rumour' that at present the AAC has less than 15 serviceable AH at any one time, including those on operations. Surely crews are going uncurrent? Oh that’s right they only get a 4 week break from Operations so they cant possibly go uncurrent, sorry forgot.

Also hot off of the press is the news that one of the 'cheap' AH simulators will be put into moth balls because they are under utilised?

Additionally, I understand that AH military simulator instructors are being re-treaded back onto Lynx courses to help out in the fully manned squadrons; and where there is no room for them in a squadron they back fill on operations as Ops room clerks?

What did ever happen to the £4.7 billion pounds of tax payers money?
Perhaps Spares (no ran out of them), Bullets, (they went tol), FRI (no chance), Pay (ha ha) then it must have gone on the purchase of some new bright, shiny arses!

Tom, Mark didnt realise you were the crews, quality job boys.........quality job; sorry to here you got a bollocking from anyone and his dog, **ck em.

But you must learn from your mistakes, next time make sure that you crew with an officer; you will be given a medal and promotion for being fantastic anyway!

[footpad6]

BEagle - Or Upavon?


I believe there may be plans to put Upavon Fixed wing, with a single paved runway.

Rgds,

FP6

[Front Seater]

Peoples Poet,
Sounds as though you are holding on far too tightly - let go otherwise you will lose far too many heart beats.
Totally agreed though, centralisation of AH assets into an AH force is the only way ahead - and it will do all of what you say - but just in the wrong place and will certainly not improve the capability - and I will always look at capability over budgets (and Wattashame has been selected purely because it is 'cost neutral').
As you are probably aware being in the AH community, the reason why the simulator is under used is because no one is 'at home base' to use it - either 'on Ops' or training for Ops or post/pre tour leave or trying their damdest to groundrun/airtest to get the aircraft serviceable to generate a training flying programme.
And just to get the facts straight - this has absolutley nothing to do with 'crewing in' with officers. You have obviously not served in a AH Regiment on operations as an AH crew, where the friendship, support, team work, trust and the whole gambit goes well beyond any glittery piece of shiney metal on your chest or fancy letters after your name. There were more involved with events that day than those you name - a real team effort.
Do not get me wrong - there is many a Staff Officer that has not left his/her desk for a long time now (and yet makes wide ranging decisions at a stroke of a pen), or been anywhere near a cockpit (but still gets the flying pay?), but PP do not try and drive a divide between guys at the coal face (of all ranks) - they most certainly function as one team and support each other through the thick and thin.
Calm down - if it is that emotive - either walk away or do something about it (raise through chain of command/company board (if a civvie)) and if no success, then go for your MP, etc.

[Wingedapache]

The fact is that like Dishforth Wattisham has a low flying complaint log suprisingly given the that the flying rate is high. This is for many reasons one being that aircraft now use LFA5 as well as the DUA and flight commanders are imaginative in their planning. You state that one reason the Apache is so succesful on Ops is due to being able to train in North Yorkshire..well from my recolection Helmand in no way resembles the Nth Yorkshire Dales, and Spade is of limited use in terms of training for that particular Op, oh and didnt you train in a Middle Eastern country prior to deployment? I am sure that 3 Regt will be as succesful as you were, the crews are well trained and competent; the area in which they train is irrelevent! If you take a look at the picture on this page it is actually a Wattisham aircraft operating at Holbeach ranges. Wattisham is ideal, lift off in the morning fly to Marham, bomb up, fly 10 mins to Holbeach engage targets with gun and rocket with excellent arcs (unlike Otterburn) using HERRICK profiles, return Marham refuel and IF back to Wattisham using its own PAR system...and you where saying? As mentioned previously you often do not see the big picture...cost, retention, servicing, stability...etc etc. You also say non of the Apache crews want to come to Wattisham, actually some do and have already moved and of those that you say don't we don't see any evidence of them voting with their feet..so get over it, in a couple of years time Wattisham will be the norm and it is likely over time that Dishforth will be long forgotten by the Apache fraternity. Also perhaps you should visit Wattisham and view the excellent facilities here from the swimming pool. excellent soldiers accomodation, location, servicing facility, runway, PAR....need we go on?
One point you may wish to take on; although in some ways it is commendable that you use a username that clearly identifies you..it may be prudent to disguise it in order to prevent you looking so opionated and ill informed in future.;)

[Rocket2]

"I believe there may be plans to put Upavon Fixed wing, with a single paved runway".
Only for UAV's - that'll be worth watching a landing attempt in a Northerly wind:\

[Front Seater]

Winged Apache,

Are you really justifying Wattashambles as an AH training area over North Yorkshire, the Dales, Lowlands etc.

My experiences there would not rate it from a pure training perspective - and yes the pre-deployment training was superb, but that is it - what about continuing the flying skills (Dishforth or Wattashame).

But you are right about the services at Wattashame, runway, PAR, swimming pool etc and of course any movement will always suit some more than the others (comes back to what has already been said about being in green and going where HM Queen sends you - get on with it or get out).

But if a true review of capability and training was done (in a Joint and Collective environment) I do not think that Wattashambles is the place for the AH capability (maybe for the treasury though - and that is where sadly I am a realist) - and my odds have not changed. I still reckon on an Evens chance that AH will be moving again in 10 years from Wattashambles.

As to AH QHI putting his money where his mouth is (and as is well known I am certainly no fan of any QHI!) at least he has entered a debate in open forum, without releasing any classified information or compromising those in command. This debate has been had so many times it is 'old news' and we return to the 'if you dont like it, then out get out' statement.

What he does do as a 'coal face' trainer, that has significant credability in the AH programme as one of very few that have been through the whole UK AH pipeline is that if (and 'if' it is a big 'if') those in positions of a power wanted an insight into the AH crewroom or coal face, without being fed the usual 'rosey picture' during their visits - then at least this little insignificant web site provides a little glimpse on some of the feelings (I re-iterate - unclassified, not breaking Queens Regs or AGAI 67 etc).

Don't you wish that more people had the morale courage to stand up and be counted, rather than waiting that their peerage was safe and a civilian before becoming so 'opinionated' - when we would all wish for more 'opinion' when they were still serving.

We all know that this thread should actually be entitled 'Farewell Dishforth - You Served Us Well' as I am sure the old Stirling/Halifax Bomber crews did at the end of WWII.

The decision has been made, lets either get on with it and make it work to the best of our ability or look at a employment elsewhere :oh:

[AHQHI656SQN]

Peoplespoet, hello, it has been a while. :ok:
Front Seater, the beer is on me when we're both at the bar.;)
WingedApache, nice swimming pool, you're quite correct. :D. Ref self opinionated, you hide behind your user name to be self opinionated.:=
All three please check PMs

[Roadster280]

Much as I liked (RAF) Upavon, the place was hardly suited to new fangled toys. Of the four hangars:

One wrong side of road!
One was an MT shed, doors will never work again
One was MT/Army/Supply, doors equally seized/rusted/otherwise useless
Leaving one, last seen full of gliders.

Accomodation was great if you wanted a 60s office block, otherwise poor.
It had a fire section (covering SPTA, and I believe still there) however.
Airfield was not remotely flat, with very poor vis over the hill. Other than wind considerations (lots of it), no idea why it was built in the first place.

Netheravon on the other hand makes Upavon positively great!

Why not use the redundant full expansion period airfields like Colerne, Thorney Island, South Cerney etc if considering rebuilding an airfield close to SPTA? It seems barking to try and make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

[Blacksheep]

Dishforth is slap bang in the middle of Herriot Country - the esteemed literary vet's practice is just a few minutes away in Thirsk.

Then there's the local brew - Theakstons (sound of smacking lips) and of course the incomparable Blacksheep brewery (sigh of appreciation and more lip smacking).

If I were posted from Dishforth to Wattisham I'd be pretty p*ssed off too!

[diginagain]

Blacksheep, since I'm going to be spending several days in the Masham area, I'll think of you as I sink a few.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Try the Riggwelter! That'll poot t'led back in yer pencil!

[diginagain]

CM, I have. Trust me!

[mutleyfour]

I have had the pleasure of serving in both and whilst I can see the merits of co-location for spares support and cost cutting I do have a great deal of sympathy for my colleagues at 9 whom are still on or supporting Op Herrick and then upon return have to move to Suffolk.

There must have been an immense amount of pressure on family life after CTT, CTR, CR and Op Herrick alone. To throw this at them now will cause an immeasurable amount of sorrow I am sure. The Army always advertises that your part of a family, well this doesn't seem so and I am sure that the men, women and families at 9 will conduct themselves gracefully over this and we must ensure they have as easy an integration here (Wattisham) as possible.

Yes Beags it is a lovely part of the world, well albeit apart from Ipswich which really does nothing for me, but the flying here isnt as good as Dishforth for us rotary pongoes regardless of Holbeach. We need to continue to train for Ops other than Herrick and that just isnt as easily achieved here as it is up North.

To all whom find themselves coming south on the A1 in the coming months please pm me if you need any help or advice on the local area or even just a cuppa when you move in.

[diginagain]

Having spent time at Dishforth with 9 (albeit 12 years ago) I have the greatest sympathy for those families who have settled in that part of the world, and who now face a move at the Army's behest. Talk of 'it comes with the job' will do little to assuage their ill-feeling, and I would not be in the least bit surprised if this becomes another own-goal. Yes, I can see the reasoning behind it, but try to explain that to the missus.

[Wader2]

This move is part of the whole JHC basing rationalisation from 9 (?) bases to just 5. Can't remember the 5 but certainly one is not presently a helicopter base so that suggests 50% of the helicopter force is going to be dislocated and relocated.