ICAO introducing MP License

[DeltaSix]

I don't know if this has been taken up before but. what are your thoughts on this new multi-crew licensing system that ICAO has introduced across Europe and now Asia. 250 hours and they are off to the right seat of an A320.
:confused: cripes !!!
I read that a lot of pilots in the airline are questioning this in regards to experience, airmanship and handling. ( I wonder how Captains here would react)
Apparently this license will be the equivalent of a "frozen" ATPL without going through the usual licensing progression ( GFPT, PPL, CPL ).
This incorporates everything including instrument rating, not sure about multi engine training as I have seen second officers in Asia jumping from Cessna 172s to A330 with just 200 hours.
Would anyone know if CASA has something on the pipeline ?
D6

[PLovett]

Yep, there has been a bit of discussion about the MPL on D & G as well as other threads.

Yes, CASA is currently developing a syllabus for such a licence in Australia in conjunction with ICAO and Alteon (sp?) is working on the same.

What interests me is whether the MPL is going to be airline specific? In other words, will someone with an MPL be restricted to the airline whose syllabus they followed in getting their licence? My cynical mind suggests that some airlines would favour that approach.:sad:

[DeltaSix]

Hi PLovett,
Yes, you're right - the airline would favour this as some are actually paying for their type rating and train in their airline culture. Less cost for them and can fill their requirements quickly.. they complete the entire MPL course in 45 weeks. It would be interesting to know if it's airline specific.

I've spoken to a representative of a particular operator in Asia and their plan is to put these junior FOs on the right seat while they have a Sr FO sitting in the jump seat coaching them in a light jet ( A320 ).

I've read somewhere that the Germans started this and seems to be working.

D6

[bushy]

I do not think this idea is new. The military and others have been doing this sort of thing for decades.

I do not think CASA can issue a licence that is airline specific. (although the airlines would want that, and we all know the influence they have on CASA)

If a simulator costs $3000-00 per hour to operate, it will be a very expensive process.

[aircabbie]

Gents ,


Ive been watching these trends closely for a while now , wondering what will happin to blokes who ( like me) have come up through the different licences to CPL go and get our MECIR and a twin job . Will someone with a MCPL ( with no "GA habits" like flying command Im guessing!!!) be preferred over the guys who have gone what i feel might soon turn into the "old school " way . Will we be restricted to the regionals ect .

I don't have a MECIR though im starting in a few months , if airlines is what i decide to aim for would i be better not spending this money and putting it into my porcilin pink piggy account ready to fork out for my MCPL . ( 40K down the drain on a CPL, if ailines is the aim ) .

I know this all seems worst case but id like to know where my money is going to get me ?

Any input greatly appreciated .:ok:

[podbreak]

Unless there is ICAO issuing of the licences, this will end in a mess. It can be done, it can work, and it certainly can produce some quality airline pilots. It can also produce highly incompetant, in some cases dangerous, pilots if left to individual government regulators. Its evident (Garuda, Merpati) that recruiting locally for numbers, not quality, hasn't always produced a desirable result. Left to governments with conflicting interests (build local workforce) and this licence could become a shortcut loophole to stuff as many locally 'trained' cadets into the right seat. We all know where this ends...

[Jet_A_Knight]

Well Aircabbie, that depends on whether you want to be an aviator, or an automaton.

AFAIK, the MPL "Starts with cheers - ends in tears"

[404 Titan]

Just like cadets today, getting a MPL will just be another avenue into the airlines for those that want to go that way. I suspect though that MPL’s will replace the traditional cadet training schemes that exist today. For those airlines that currently pay for their cadets training, if it is cheaper they will jump at it.

If you have or are going to go the GA, Military route I wouldn’t worry too much. They will continue to employ from as large a cross-section of the aviation community as they can to keep supply in check with demand and hence pressure on terms & conditions.

[DeltaSix]

Hi 404Titan,

Definitely, this is the new cadet scheme. In addition, no multi engine time required.

I think we have seen the near end of the ME requirement if someone goes through this system, and I had to slug it out trying to fill my logbook with twin time and had to cross the 1500 hour mark just to get noticed by the airlines. Now 250 ?????:confused:

[WilliamOK]

Doesn't this eman that the arse will fall out of the GA industry? I can't see any pilots paying something like 30 000 for thier CPL, if they aren't going to get a job that leads into something more lucrative. I.e why spend so much money on a licence that will only get you flying in small GA planes when you can spend the same/less on getting an MPL and flying a bigger plaen for more money?

[OBNO]

Bushy - Don't even think about trying to compare the proposed MPL syllabus to Military Flying Training - they are about as far removed as is possible.

[permFO]

The Multi-Crew license will involve a minimum of time flying a real aeroplane and a lot of time flying a simulator. I think the time in the aeroplane will be 40 hours, just enough to give a person the basics. The rest of the training is in a simulator and your "license" will only allow you to fly in the RHS of what you did the sim training on. At least the cadet schemes produced a pilot with a basic ME-CIR. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to be introduced within a short time frame but it is coming.

[404 Titan]

permFO
The rest of the training is in a simulator and your "license" will only allow you to fly in the RHS of what you did the sim training on.
That’s no different to what happens now. I fly the A330/340 from the right hand seat. I am not qualified to be the pilot flying from the left hand seat and I certainly can’t go and fly a B737 or the like without the endorsement in my licence. Someone with a MPL would have to go through the same training to change aircraft types as you or I would.
At least the cadet schemes produced a pilot with a basic ME-CIR.
Most of whom will never use it again until their command comes up. Most (not all) direct entry pilots who get into the airlines never fly for recreation again either. All their hours are owned by the airlines and if they want to pursue some recreational flying must get permission from their employer.

As I said I really don’t see this making any difference to what is currently the general entry avenues to the airlines. MPL’s will replace traditional cadet schemes and just like the current cadet schemes, will be for the few that can afford $100K+. Those that can’t will continue via the traditional GA/Military avenues and ultimately will still be accepted into the airlines as they are now.

People stop sweating about this. It will “NOT” affect your chances of getting into the airlines in the future, just as cadets didn’t when they were introduced in large numbers in the 60’s and 70’s.

[DeltaSix]

IMHO, it might affect your chances as the airlines will be able to produce their own using their equipment and training them in their SOPs and if you don't have the 75k they ask for then they might give priority to the ones that do. :{ I've seen it happen. A guy with 75k vs 2500 hrs - guess which one they picked ?..... it all comes down to economics.

People coming from GA has a very big possibility of being at the bottom of the list.

And yes, I have seen Junior FOs who doesn't even know what a LLZ is and are seating at the RHS being coached. :uhoh:

[Deepsea Racing Prawn]

Agree with 404 on this one, there will always be a demand for real pilots.:E *ducks for cover*
who doesn't even know what a LLZ is ...is that a lizard?

[404 Titan]

DeltaSix

The reason why I say it won’t make any difference is very simple. Airlines need to draw from the widest possible cross-section of the aviation community to keep pressure on wages and conditions. As soon as you start excluding a group it artificially restricts supply and puts upward pressure on wages and conditions. The bean counters in airlines won’t allow this and will continue to require their recruitment departments to not exclude any group as long as they can do the job. MPL’s will simply replace the conventional cadet pilot training that currently occurs because it will be cheaper. Lastly there appears to be the misconception that the airlines will do the MPL training. They won’t. Airlines aren’t in the flying school business with the exception of maybe SQ. Just as cadet training is farmed out to the flying school industry, so will the MPL training. Airlines will have an input as to what is taught but only as far as sponsored MPL Cadet courses go. Self sponsored will be just like and other pilot training course. The type of sims used will most likely be some sought of business jet or regional jet to keep the cost down. It could even be some sought of generic sim. Once the MPL training is done the freshly licensed pilots will then go off to their respective airlines where they will be endorsed on the aircraft they will fly on the line. Again this is no different to what currently happens with cadets.

[neville_nobody]

As far as airlines like China Southern, China Eastern, Air China, China Airlines, Eva, Emirates, Vietnam Airlines, Korean, JAL, CATHAY the MPL is fantastic because it means it will be cheaper to train their FO's than flying around in a Learjet, and they will come from training ready to go. MPL training will be done on type not generic, however I don't believe the standard will be any better than what they get now. Don't forget though these airlines PAY THEIR CADETS TO TRAIN!!

For places like Australia and the USA it will mean the cost of flying training will basically double if everything was to go to MPL. Airlines will have to pay for an MPL because it's to expensive. The other issue is standards. Of the guys that meet your requirements how many will be happy to pay $250 000 for a $50 000 SO slot?? I doubt you'd even pay the bills with that sort of debt hanging around.

Don't forget that Dixon and Co get a free ride when it comes to pilots compared to Asian carriers. Something that he always seems forget whenever he starts telling the press that QF pilots are overpaid. I wish someone would bring this point out whenever discussing pilot pay.

And if the MPL is so good how come the USA isn't touching it with a proverbial barge pole?:suspect:

[Captain Sand Dune]

The military and others have been doing this sort of thing for decades.

Really?

Care to substantiate that, or is this yet another observation about ADF aviation based on absolutely no experience?

[mingalababya]

It looks like CASA has already started trialling the MPL syllabus. This is from their website (http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/multicrew/index.htm). A proof of concept trial has started in Brisbane with 6 students studying for the MPL. CASA is closely monitoring the course and will be using the information gathered during the trial to contribute to a global information sharing arrangement sponsored by ICAO. The intention is for training providers, airlines and civil aviation regulators to share information on the experiences gained in implementing the MPL as part of a continuous improvement strategy.

[bushy]

I would hope so.
The military are the only organisation in Australia that has had a serious accident in a Boeing jet.

[j3pipercub]

touche!!!!!

bushy love your work sir:)