Power margin for sling operations

[RotorDompteur]

I seem to recall to have read about a required power margin when during sling operations. I can't remember if it was in Australia or New Zealand.
But I can't find it again... :confused:
If it rings a bell - please let me know. :ok:

[Drumpump]

The RFS is looking at bring in a mandatory 10% power margin on bucketing opp's. Ogsplash knows more ?

[RVDT]

Ding!

NZCAR 135.95 Helicopter sling loads
(a) Each pilot-in-command performing an air transport operation in a
helicopter shall not carry a helicopter external sling load.
(b) Notwithstanding 133.53, each pilot-in-command performing a
commercial transport operation in a helicopter may carry goods in a
helicopter external sling load if—
(1) the goods in the sling load are associated with the passengers on
board; and
(2) the flight complies with the remaining helicopter external load
operation requirements in Part 133; and
(3) the flight is conducted under VFR by day; and
(4) the helicopter is operated with not less than a 10% power margin
from maximum power available at the point of departure and
landing.

133.53 Carriage of persons
(a) A pilot-in-command shall not carry a person inside the helicopter on a
helicopter external load towing operation, who is not performing a function
essential to the external load towing operation.
(b) A pilot-in-command shall not carry a person inside the helicopter on
a helicopter sling load operation, who is not performing a function essential
to the helicopter sling load operation, unless—
(1) the operation is not a human sling load operation; and
(2) the person is necessary to accomplish the on site work activity
directly associated with the sling load; and
(3) the safety of the operation is not compromised.
(c) A pilot-in-command shall not carry a person inside the helicopter on a
winching, rappelling, or human sling load operation, who is not performing
a function essential to the winching, rappelling, or human sling load
operation.
(d) Notwithstanding paragraphs (a), (b), and (c), a pilot-in-command may
carry a crew member trainee inside the helicopter, who is not performing an
essential function in connection with the operation, provided that—
(1) the pilot-in-command is qualified to instruct in the type of
operation to be carried out; and
(2) the safety of the operation is not compromised.

Be aware of the difference between an Air Transport and a Commercial Transport Operation. In this case it would only be applicable where it was Commercial Transport operation to a remote landing site

Switzerland allows a similar operation.

As to the RFS applying a 10% margin for WB Ops, that would have to be about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. It is a jettisonable load after all!!:D

[gulliBell]

Same same in PNG, need a 10% power margin for slingload ops but only when pax are carried on board. Any pax so carried must be associated with the load; eg if you're carrying a net full of Telikom gear up to the top of a mountain, you can have a Telikom employee onboard to help dismantle the load on arrival.
However, when lifting from sea level to altitude then ops manual requirements for OEI or OGE power margins might kick in as well.

[SirVivr]

From the Ops Manual of a company with an excellent safety record.
The weight will be the mean of twin OGE hover and twin IGE hover.
From a very senior Training Captain: Use the OGE.
SirVivr

[topendtorque]

As to the RFS applying a 10% margin for WB Ops, that would have to be about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. It is a jettisonable load after all!!:D

Dumb but extremely predictable.

But possibly not to the everage joe if he employed the following logic; If he were to buy a diamond ring would that investment entitle or suggest to him to tell the jeweller how to cut the ring.
The RFS invests in fire bucket jocks and many would contend and i would agree that a common fire bucket jock has served every bit as much an apprenticeship as a common diamond cutter. Yes you would think that they would stay away from advising the professionals, but no!

But no this is the RFS and all of its brothers, one of which proved their explicitly poor abilities at fire prevention by having to succumb to an out of court settlement recently after a class action was brought against them by a group of angry ~ make that savage ~ farmers.

Another brother which demonstrated a culpable lack of planning and prevention by allowing a set up which exterminated many houses in Canberra not long back.

And every third year or better they nearly all attend to making sure that there is another big load of fuel for wildfire devesatation on a catastrophic scale.

Probably so that they can convince the various govt treasurer's and voting public that the firm grip they already have on the treasury dept's testicles need tightening some more to buy the RFS more toys.

Of course they may have worked out that one of the toys may be an extra ten percent of helicopter time for sure ~ plus some ~ as we know that power managment doesn't quite work like that when it comes to Liiiiiiffftttt with load and with the lesssss power.

Mate take it on the chin, go to work feeling happy, knowing that they are organising you of a whole lot of extra hours. If you miss putting a fire out at a critical time because of that critical 10% with a disposable load that you're sure as hell gonna drop anyway and some kid gets burnt bad because of it, yeah i know you get to live with it they don't.

But mate for a mob that can't organize themselves to not have a fire in the first place of course it stands to reason that they'll be organising everyone around them. More than likely if you start talking about it you'll also be organised onto the black list. :)

[Shawn Coyle]

I'm curious to know how the pilot is supposed to have a 10% power margin when he has no way to calculate how much power it takes to hover IGE or OGE (at least from the FM charts I know are out there).
And the power available will change dramatically with OAT.
How exactly do these guys calculate the power required and power available to know they have a 10% power margin?

[topendtorque]

The RFS is looking at bring in a mandatory 10% power margin on bucketing opp's. Ogsplash knows more ?


I think we will have to wait for Mr Ogsplach to tell us more. others who fly in these jobs won't be game to comment too much as the on site auditing, supposedly of technical profiency gets way too personal at times.

Shawn, your questions mirror the various photographs of bucketing. One minute working at ideal IGE height snorkelling from a stable 25 degrees C lake, the next in a mountain rocky crevice with brush destroying the rotor wash at maybe 40 degrees with a 120 foot line trying to dunk in a rockhole the size of a billiard table.

I mean how much of a senior pilot do you need to be to work out that the application of IGE data may not work from the end of a 120 foot line? Any strop takes you away from IGE, the longer the strop the further the torque tweaks.

And really, 10% of what? Total power or power avbl after OGE is established.

Where there is smoke there will be fire for sure and idiocy suggestions like this will be bubbling away in the RFS headquarters you can be sure. What they will need is a sharp watching brief and a severe bucketing from pro's like yourself when your brethren need protecting with common sense.

~

On the other issues of responsible fire prevention during the off seasons and park utilisation to prevent massive wildfire damage and risk to the surrounding farming areas, this will be my last word. The greatest tradegy of it all is that the lack of support for common sense in that area is contributing to a vast feeling of a lack of self worth in those farming communities to the extent that rural suicides are now running at about one per week in NSW alone. One poor fellow shot all of his cows first then himself.

And to Heliport I say that anyone who wants to complain about my comments on the issue, then they are welcome to put their credentials up and I'll try to arrange them an interview with any of the relevant senior farming organisation presidents to put their case. The criticisms won't come from drivers only RFS spies.

Rant over and over now to the throttle pro's

[Shawn Coyle]

topendtorque (and others)

If anyone tries to mandate a 10% power margin, ask them to show you how this is going to be accomplished using the performance charts in the flight manual.
Unless you have access to a military flight manual for exactly the same helicopter type, the civil charts will not give you any way to calculate power required to hover.
You simply can't get there with a civil performance chart. (If you can, please let me know how you did it!).
Power available is different - that might be available from the power check charts, but that only works for a specification engine.